New Dyno Pull!

[97m3john]

Same software 50/50 93oct and 100sunoco wi. spray at 5k on a mustang dyno.I personally don't like my afr"s.Plugs have about 4k miles on iridium 7's and engine has 40k with schrick cams.Also new o2 sensor on the dyno sniffer.350hp and 290tq.

[dredder]

Is this a joke? You my friend cannot draw. You made a big mistake by having your torque and Hp cross at the wrong intersection :help :eyecrazy

[KarlSpackler]

Is this a joke? You my friend cannot draw. You made a big mistake by having your torque and Hp cross at the wrong intersection :help :eyecrazy
:lol

[97m3john]

Listen! I made two pulls and that's what printed off there printer!

[T-Rex]

Listen! I made two pulls and that's what printed off there printer!
Well, either you were completely lied to or you're a troll. That dyno is physically impossible.

[97m3john]

I just figured it out! The blue run is when they were calibrating the dyno.For some reason there' isn't a torque curve.But on the bottom of the sheet there's a torque reading of 289

[Eric BMW]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/ericlikepizza/mehctechhp.jpg

:wiggle

[T-Rex]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/ericlikepizza/mehctechhp.jpg

:wiggle
:rofl

Go easy on the new guy Eric ;)

[97m3john]

Ok here's a breakdown every 100rpm.Maybe someone can chime in here that knows about mustang dyno's.

[KarlSpackler]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/ericlikepizza/mehctechhp.jpg





:rofl
:rofl :rofl
:rofl :rofl :rofl
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

[97m3john]

Soo Cause You Have 3k Post Makes You Some Type Of Prof?..

[Eric BMW]

:rofl

Go easy on the new guy Eric ;)

hehe he's been registered here longer than me.



John, your numbers look good, especially on a mustang dyno. You can see the afr jump near where w/i sprays.

Good numbers. What/who did your tuning?

[Brekyrself]

Maybe you guys should get a clue. Thats a real dyno. The HP/TQ does not always have to cross at 5250 depending on the readout's scale.

Anyway's it is always a good idea to specify to the dyno operator you want an even scale so the HP/TQ cross at 5250.

John, get a scanner ;)

[dinans3m3]

Thats correct unless scaled with both identical values coinciding then it should cross at ~5250rpm. Now 97M3John if you installe dthe cam using the stock software you were running before taht would resolve why your AFRs are wacky after 4000rpm. Thats when they kick in and tend to lean out the tune. Get a revised or custom chip richening up the mid to topend and you should be fine. You are cabable of making more power as well with the proper tuning.

[T-Rex]

Soo Cause You Have 3k Post Makes You Some Type Of Prof?..
Why is it that people always feel the need to bring up post count :rolleyes

As DinanS3M3 said, your AFRs are goofy - what tuning are you using, and what is your exact setup?

[markesq]

Ok here's a breakdown every 100rpm.Maybe someone can chime in here that knows about mustang dyno's.


You only ran to 6100 RPM? You sure that is for an M3?

[paul e]

People, you are really F'ed up, and dont know what youre talking about, jumping all over the guy like that, when its you who dont understand whats going on.. Before attacking somebody like that, how bout taking the time to figure out whats going on... Didnt it occur to you when you saw the afr scale on the left and the whp scale on the right, THAT THE TRQ SCALE WAS MISSING?!! Clearly, the trq is done on its own scale here, and thats why its not crossing at 5200; it only crosses when they use the same scale.. So how bout giving him an apology!

>>You only ran to 6100 RPM? You sure that is for an M3?<<

No he didnt.. Look at the plot.. goes to around 6900.. clearly hes missing pg 2 of the printout.

BTW, m3john, while those afrs arent perfect, I dont think theyre dangerous for a supercharged application. BTW, i assume it was a cf blown application from the appearance of the power curves, although it doesnt say anywhere.

[T-Rex]

People, you are really F'ed up, and dont know what youre talking about, jumping all over the guy like that, when its you who dont understand whats going on.. Before attacking somebody like that, how bout taking the time to figure out whats going on... Didnt it occur to you when you saw the afr scale on the left and the whp scale on the right, THAT THE TRQ SCALE WAS MISSING?!! Clearly, the trq is done on its own scale here, and thats why its not crossing at 5200; it only crosses when they use the same scale.. So how bout giving him an apology!
I actually can't see any of that on my monitor - so no, I won't apologize for not being able to see the low quality picture that was posted. I'll be happy to offer advice, but seeing just that image posted with no clarification was asking for trouble.

[paul e]

I actually can't see any of that on my monitor - so no, I won't apologize for not being able to see the low quality picture that was posted. I'll be happy to offer advice, but seeing just that image posted with no clarification was asking for trouble.

Huh? Why did you assume that what he posted was impossible if you didnt even see the plot?!!!!!!!! How could you make the determination that it showed an impossible scenario if 'you cant see any of that on your monitor'?

[T-Rex]

Huh? Why did you assume that what he posted was impossible if you didnt even see the plot?!!!!!!!! How could you make the determination that it showed an impossible scenario if 'you cant see any of that on your monitor'?
I could make out the 2 lines, and RPM numbers....the graph was very reminiscent of the MA chart, only less crappy. The rest of the text is too dark for me to read.

[Brekyrself]

I could make out the 2 lines, and RPM numbers....the graph was very reminiscent of the MA chart, only less crappy. The rest of the text is too dark for me to read.

no offense, but I suggest you get a new monitor than before making assumptions.

[miljan3]

no offense, but I suggest you get a new monitor than before making assumptions.
:lol

[aceves]

I could make out the 2 lines, and RPM numbers....the graph was very reminiscent of the MA chart, only less crappy. The rest of the text is too dark for me to read.
Just admit you were wrong.

[paul e]

I could make out the 2 lines, and RPM numbers....the graph was very reminiscent of the MA chart, only less crappy. The rest of the text is too dark for me to read.

Well, I dont know about you, bit if it were me, and I couldnt discern very well what was being discussed, I sure wouldnt start putting a guy down before I had a true picture of what was going on.

>>You can see the afr jump near where w/i sprays.<<

Not true. First, the Wi triggers at 5k; the afr movement occurs at 5300. But even if he were loose with the trigger point, the afr goes Leanward.. If anything, if there were a significant quantity of methanol being mixed with the water, you might see the afr move a Hair in the Rich direction.. But having seen dozens of WI related plots on E36 bmws, there is generally NO correlation with afr movement detected by the dyno sniffers and wi used, even with a 50/50 alchy blend.

[Shuasha]

Why would somebody with no agenda and no financial gain from bf.c lie about a dyno graph for 350 whp?

Get your head out of your ass and apologize for trying to be a bully.

[///M3 CRAZY]

john pease post page 2 i will enter into excel and make a graph.

[T-Rex]

Why would somebody with no agenda and no financial gain from bf.c lie about a dyno graph for 350 whp?

Get your head out of your ass and apologize for trying to be a bully.
Did you see me call him a liar? Let me quote myself then, for all those who lack reading comprehension:

Well, either you were completely lied to or you're a troll. That dyno is physically impossible.

I specifically said there was something wrong with the plot - either something wasn't clear, or he was lying. If I had post "You're a troll", then I would owe him an apology. This interweb is serious business....

I am on a shitty Mac here at work - my monitor sucks. As I said before, I am happy to share any knowledge I have that can help the OP - but if all of you were in my position when I posted, you would have agreed that it looked suspect.


Was I too quick to comment on the sheet, not knowing there was more to follow? Yes, I was.

Back on topic.......

[slvrathlon]

No kidding

[97m3john]

Thanks guys! I'll post page two after dinner!
Anyways the is angry fast after 5k.Maybe alittle tweaking of the afr's and mo power!

[kobe 8]

Hey John, noticed you went to 2 different dynos (dynojet, mustang dyno)...for me, I stayed with one dyno when I had my ecu tuned...

Good luck!

[T-Rex]

Thanks guys! I'll post page two after dinner!
Anyways the is angry fast after 5k.Maybe alittle tweaking of the afr's and mo power!
mo powa is always welcome - I think NickG has an off the shelf tune for your setup, but I'm not 100%

[///M3 CRAZY]

mo powa is always welcome - I think NickG has an off the shelf tune for your setup, but I'm not 100%


i believe he is running Nick's tuning.

[T-Rex]

i believe he is running Nick's tuning.
Hmmm....I would've expected the AFRs to be a little richer in the top end with Nick's tuning. Learn something new everyday :)

[5mall5nail5]

This is the reason I will never post a dyno sheet.

[///M3 CRAZY]

This is the reason I will never post a dyno sheet.


lol! i hear ya.

[97m3john]

here's the rest,not to bad.He let off at 6500.
Ok let me add this in here!Hardware is the eurobahn stage one.Software is Nick's.I just read paul's post,that's pretty interesting that the dyno sniffer won't really pickup anything from the WI. btw. paul I was spraying 30% meth,really helps when it's hot out!!

[///M3 CRAZY]

here you go this should look more like a normal dyno even though it is imput into excel.

[markesq]

People, you are really F'ed up, and dont know what youre talking about, jumping all over the guy like that, when its you who dont understand whats going on.. Before attacking somebody like that, how bout taking the time to figure out whats going on... Didnt it occur to you when you saw the afr scale on the left and the whp scale on the right, THAT THE TRQ SCALE WAS MISSING?!! Clearly, the trq is done on its own scale here, and thats why its not crossing at 5200; it only crosses when they use the same scale.. So how bout giving him an apology!

>>You only ran to 6100 RPM? You sure that is for an M3?<<

No he didnt.. Look at the plot.. goes to around 6900.. clearly hes missing pg 2 of the printout.

BTW, m3john, while those afrs arent perfect, I dont think theyre dangerous for a supercharged application. BTW, i assume it was a cf blown application from the appearance of the power curves, although it doesnt say anywhere.

Why are you so fired up? I was mearly asking a question. No it was not CLEAR that page 2 was missing.

[97m3john]

WOW!Thanks Drew that looks much better!Be careful on that bike!

[///M3 CRAZY]

WOW!Thanks Drew that looks much better!Be careful on that bike!


the graph shows the same info but in our "normal" view. always careful on the bike (it tops out at 160mph with gearing)! lol.

[paul e]

Why are you so fired up? I was mearly asking a question. No it was not CLEAR that page 2 was missing.

Mark, just so you dont misunderstand, your post didnt get me fired up.. YOu asked in a nice enough way what happened to the rest of it.. It was the guys who were making such fun of the guy, and having such fun at his expense, drawing free hand plots as if they were putting him to shame.. Thats what got to me... Your question was fine with me.. I knew he was missing a page because his plot went to near 7k , but the text table stopped almost 1k below that.. To me, there were two possible explanations: That he was a con artist and drew the results as others intimated, or, he simply forgot or had trouble posting the rest of the text.. Thats why I was pretty sure thats what happened. I dont know. .Maybe after looking at as many dyno printouts as I have over the years, you get a 'feel' for this stuff.. Nothing negative directed at you in my post..

[NickG]

This thread is a prime example as to what's wrong with forums lately. Too many people are quick to jump on a bandwagon and start condemning somebody/something, when they know absolutely NOTHING about what they're talking about. Why don't a few of you step back and think of how you can HELP things around here, instead of contributing to the problem.

[alpinawhitem3]

This is the reason I will never post a dyno sheet.

+1

[markesq]

Mark, just so you dont misunderstand, your post didnt get me fired up.. YOu asked in a nice enough way what happened to the rest of it.. It was the guys who were making such fun of the guy, and having such fun at his expense, drawing free hand plots as if they were putting him to shame.. Thats what got to me... Your question was fine with me.. I knew he was missing a page because his plot went to near 7k , but the text table stopped almost 1k below that.. To me, there were two possible explanations: That he was a con artist and drew the results as others intimated, or, he simply forgot or had trouble posting the rest of the text.. Thats why I was pretty sure thats what happened. I dont know. .Maybe after looking at as many dyno printouts as I have over the years, you get a 'feel' for this stuff.. Nothing negative directed at you in my post..

ok.

[m3jasper]

This thread is a prime example as to what's wrong with forums lately. Too many people are quick to jump on a bandwagon and start condemning somebody/something, when they know absolutely NOTHING about what they're talking about. Why don't a few of you step back and think of how you can HELP things around here, instead of contributing to the problem.

:handclap

[gerry_miranda]

This thread is a prime example as to what's wrong with forums lately. Too many people are quick to jump on a bandwagon and start condemning somebody/something, when they know absolutely NOTHING about what they're talking about. Why don't a few of you step back and think of how you can HELP things around here, instead of contributing to the problem.


+10000000000000000000000

[BMEP]

Not true. First, the Wi triggers at 5k; the afr movement occurs at 5300. But even if he were loose with the trigger point, the afr goes Leanward.. If anything, if there were a significant quantity of methanol being mixed with the water, you might see the afr move a Hair in the Rich direction.. But having seen dozens of WI related plots on E36 bmws, there is generally NO correlation with afr movement detected by the dyno sniffers and wi used, even with a 50/50 alchy blend.

This is due to the transiant delay caused by "lagging" sensor placement.

[CEbeling]

I agree... +1

[97m3john]

One thing I did notice is that on the mustang dyno I made less power at 4k than on the dynojet,but much higher peak #'s on the mustang dyno.If mustang dyno's read high wouldn't it read high across the whole rpm range?Maybe I am making that much more power on race gas and WI.
This pull was just on 93oct. no WI. and it was raining,,high humidity.

[trthrrt489]

Actually, if you weren't detonating, you'll probably lose power with the water injection and race gas. You need to turn up the boost to the point that the reg gas isn't sufficient in detonation surpression, then use that stuff and make more power.

The water injection is going to take oxygen out of the cylinder in an attempt to cool a charge that doesn't need cooling. It's different than an intercooler. An intercooler will make the charge more dense, the WI replaces a portion of the charge with a different substance.

This would be a good opportunity for a writeup though with back to back dyno's!!!

BTW, those are awesome numbers!

[paul e]

Ive never seen even the tiniest movement in my afr over 5 yrs of dynoing with water injection.

[BMEP]

Ive never seen even the tiniest movement in my afr over 5 yrs of dynoing with water injection.

To look at this in full logic, please answer three things:

Oxygen sensor location
Water Injection Nozzle(s) placement
Mixture sprayed

[Jim M3]

I would recommend dynoing the car without race gas so you can see what your true numbers are and what your AFR's actually look like for everyday driving. I also don't think comparing Mustang to dynojet numbers and trying to guess why one is higher or lower than the other is really a worthwile excercise. I went to a dyno dynamic dyno after using dynojet's all the time and all it did was cause more questions than answers.

[paul e]

To look at this in full logic, please answer three things:

Oxygen sensor location
Water Injection Nozzle(s) placement
Mixture sprayed

o2 location: tested both pre cat and post cat.
WI nozzle: 6" before throttlebody, after aftercooler
Mixture sprayed: variously from 10% meth to 50% meth
nozzle size: variously from .7mm to 1mm

In no afr test with the above conditions did I ever see movement in the afr.

Curious... what kind of afr change would you expect to see when sampling a water injected exhaust stream? Incidentally, Ive always verified that the wI is working whenver Ive done an afr sample and I was interested in seeing if there was an effect..

[328flyer]

I guess you shouldn't see any change in AFR. The volume of methanol is insignificant compared to fuel. The only thing I might expect to change with WI would be timing, if your engine management is setup for it, ei., looking for knock and trying to achieve maximum advance.

However, if you're seeing a significant change in intake temperature with WI, would AFR not be affected at all? I guess that depends on your software.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. When the engine is a WOT above ~3kRPM it's running open loop meaning O2 sensor feedback is not used for AFR management. It relies on maps with assumed flow conditions to determine how much fuel is flowing. Which sensor inputs are used to make adjustment to these maps? Or was the tune setup for WI assuming that it can be run a bit leaner while it's on?

In the plots it looks like the power and torque jump a bit every time the AFR goes toward the lean side. This seems to say that AFR is actually changing in this case, not due to some measurement error?

[paul e]

I guess you shouldn't see any change in AFR. The volume of methanol is insignificant compared to fuel. The only thing I might expect to change with WI would be timing, if your engine management is setup for it, ei., looking for knock and trying to achieve maximum advance.

However, if you're seeing a significant change in intake temperature with WI, would AFR not be affected at all? I guess that depends on your software.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. When the engine is a WOT above ~3kRPM it's running open loop meaning O2 sensor feedback is not used for AFR management. It relies on maps with assumed flow conditions to determine how much fuel is flowing. Which sensor inputs are used to make adjustment to these maps? Or was the tune setup for WI assuming that it can be run a bit leaner while it's on?

In the plots it looks like the power and torque jump a bit every time the AFR goes toward the lean side. This seems to say that AFR is actually changing in this case, not due to some measurement error?

>> Please correct me if I'm wrong. When the engine is a WOT above ~3kRPM it's running open loop meaning O2 sensor feedback is not used for AFR management. It relies on maps with assumed flow conditions to determine how much fuel is flowing. Which sensor inputs are used to make adjustment to these maps?<<

At wot openloop, the base maps are used, and no realtime adaption is going on.. HOWEVER, the effects of your adaption performed during closed loop by way of your Long Term Fuel Trims are applied to your open loop maps so that whatever conditions are causing your trims' departure from 0.0 are still compensated for even at wot.

>>However, if you're seeing a significant change in intake temperature with WI, would AFR not be affected at all?<<

Before I had aftercooler, I would do back to back dyno runs with and without WI switched on, and even though I would see whp climb significantly from using it, and temps drop by 50 degrees at wot redline, these back to back runs showed no disernable change due to the wi.


Even if tuning isnt specifically tuned for WI, if you find that below WI trigger, youre carrying a normal low number of knock counts, and above the trigger, that number drops to zero, you can be sure that your going to achieve the max timing advance programmed into the software. If you were tuning for WI, you might allow this timing advance to increase a little until you start seeing the knock counts climb.

[328flyer]

OK, I wasn't sure how fuel trim came into play. I'm learning here. Is fuel trim across the board at all operating points? Or could you have a fuel trim that is 0.0 between idle and 5kRPM and then something else at 5kRPM+? I guess I'm asking if the engine management adpated to WI at 5kRPM+, but at something less than WOT? Unlikely in my mind, why would anyone drive over 5kRPM with a turbo and not be on boost? But can you develop a decent amount of boost and not be at WOT, possibly allowing the engine management to adapt?

I guess from tuning point of view it would make sense to allow more timing, as that makes more power than leaning the mix. So, it's unlikely the tuner has made the AFR intentionally lean while WI is active.

[paul e]

OK, I wasn't sure how fuel trim came into play. I'm learning here. Is fuel trim across the board at all operating points? Or could you have a fuel trim that is 0.0 between idle and 5kRPM and then something else at 5kRPM+? I guess I'm asking if the engine management adpated to WI at 5kRPM+, but at something less than WOT? Unlikely in my mind, why would anyone drive over 5kRPM with a turbo and not be on boost? But can you develop a decent amount of boost and not be at WOT, possibly allowing the engine management to adapt?

I guess from tuning point of view it would make sense to allow more timing, as that makes more power than leaning the mix. So, it's unlikely the tuner has made the AFR intentionally lean while WI is active.

I believe it is pretty much across the board. Idle might have its own properties but outside of that, its applied pretty uniformly.

>>But can you develop a decent amount of boost and not be at WOT, possibly allowing the engine management to adapt<<

I think you mean, can you develop a decent amount of boost and not be switched into Open Loop?! And to that, I believe the answer is yes.. . I know I tested to see when it switched from closed to open, and for some reason, a tps value of something like 70% comes to mind, although that could be off ... But you can definitely get into some boost while in closed loop.

[97m3john]

would recommend dynoing the car without race gas so you can see what your true numbers are and what your AFR's actually look like for everyday driving. I also don't think comparing Mustang to dynojet numbers and trying to guess why one is higher or lower than the other is really a worthwile excercise. I went to a dyno dynamic dyno after using dynojet's all the time and all it did was cause more questions than answers"
I completly agree with you Jim.I didn't know they had a mustang dyno til I drove 20 miles to get there!