A LS6 Corvette motor in an E30 M3

[kaiservon]

Can you believe that someone actually did this?! Found this on another board ---------------



I originally was going to do the fairly popular engine swap of putting the wonderful 3.2 M engine in an E30. After researching the cost and the amount of work involved I concluded that the aluminum V8 was less expensive, about the same weight, had much more power and would take about the same amount of work.

The first step was to obtain, in this case rent, one of those foam replicas of a small-block Chevy engine and a tranny and make a trip to the local junkyard. Imagine the looks you’d get walking through a junkyard on a Saturday afternoon with an engine under one arm and a transmission under the other. Anyway, it became obvious that there was plenty of room in an E30 engine bay for a small-block Chevy so I knew the LS1/ LS6 would also fit. I studied all of the transmission and bell housing possibilities and the new aluminum 6-speed T-56 from ’98 and newer Cameros and Firebirds got the nod partly because it was made for the LS1/LS6 but also because measurements indicated it would fit well.

My appetite was sufficiently whetted that I decided to look for the chassis. The obvious choice is a pristine E30 with a blown engine for about $500; very, very difficult to find, especially when you are in a hurry. Next is a piece of crap with a blown engine but if you ever do get the drive train in you have to spend a fortune turning it into a decent car. I bought a very nice black 1987 325is for $6000 and started planning all of the modifications I would make, 5-bolt wheels, bigger brakes, etc., etc. I hated to take that super little car apart. It had only 95000 mi on it. I knew I couldn’t sell all of the parts I was going to take off of it for enough to reduce the investment significantly. Then along came a very nice 1988 M3, at what I later came to realize was a steal at $7000. I remembered that this car had 5-bolt wheels, bigger brakes, wider fenders, a 4.10 diff., quicker steering, tighter suspension and better suspension geometry. I couldn’t turn it down and I was sure I could sell the 325 for what I had paid for it so I brought the M3 home. The thing that I wasn’t prepared for was the added bonus that all of the parts that would be discarded were saleable for enough to almost cover the original cost of the M3.

When I say LS6 or ZO6 I must confess that is only for bragging rights and hp identification. The engine is actually a new LS1 I purchased from Shaun Carter (valvegod@aol.com). 95% of the parts on the LS1 and LS6 are identical and by changing the cam, doing some head work and adding an LS6 intake manifold the LS1 can easily produce more power than the LS6.

I was committed once the engine and transmission were purchased . When I raised that tranny up into the tunnel and bolted it to the engine I had to pinch myself it fit so well. The shifter actually fit exactly in the center of the hole in the tunnel where the original shifter was. I did end up moving the entire unit ¾” back to improve the overall configuration. In order to move it back I had to modify the GM Holden Austrailian oil pan. It looks like this engine and tranny were made for this car. The weight of the engine and tranny should be very little more than an iron-block BMW 6 cylinder engine and tranny so brake and suspension modifications are not necessary although I will undoubtedly do some. The entire balance and feel of the original E30 M3 should be retained but with about twice the horsepower and torque and without having to rev the engine to 7500 rpm to get the ponies. The gear ratios are perfect for the 4.10 diff. and the 24.6”, 215/45/17 tires on 8” rims. At 60 mph in 6th the engine is at 1625 rpm. What a cruiser!

Mild modification, aluminum flywheel, cam, re-flash ecu and mild headwork (about 200 hours of my own time) will put over 400 hp to the rear wheels (450 at the flywheel) and that should satisfy any M3 nerd; even me.

Will I toast the diff., the axels and the rear trailing arms? Probably, but I can make the modifications to install an M5 or 7 series diff. and axels if needed. The trailing arms can be beefed-up for more strength.

I completely disassembled the new engine to check everything out and blueprint it. I up-graded the rod bolts, ported the oil-pump, installed ARP head-studs, up-graded the timing gears (Cloyes) and chain (HME-G68VC-60), Comp Cams chrome molly pushrods, modified a GM Holden oil pan, installed a carefully selected cam (.569” intake and exhaust lift, 522/526 duration @ .050). I checked the specs. out of many, many valve springs and settled on Lunati PN# 73100 with Ferrea titanium valve spring retainers.

The cooling system is complete. I’m using a Meziere remote electric water pump (pn# WP 316 S) mounted in front of the windshield washer fluid container behind the right headlights, which I will control from a rheostat to control water temp., a Summit Racing aluminum radiator (pn#380325 or 380425, which ever one has the lower hose on the driver’s side) and a Spaal 16”, 2.48” thick electric fan that Summit ordered from Griffin for me. I fabricated .5” aluminum adapters to fit the water inlet and outlet holes in the block and welded Earls 90 degree aluminum, ¾” hose barb fittings to them for my water lines. I am just finishing the exhaust system which consists of stock stainless GM headers (I can’t remember which GM car they’re of off but Shaun would know), cut and modified with 2.5” down pipes connecting to 2.5” tubing back to the Edelbrock 5512 muffler. I will begin installing the engine wiring harness, finalize my brake master cyl. choice, connect the brake lines and select my wheels and tires.

There is a multitude of little problems to sort out but that’s what I love doing. At age 58, and while in my 31st year of dental practice, this project is providing me with, other than my family, my greatest moments of personal satisfaction and mental stimulation.

I do reconsider this project frequently and sometimes, after talking with an E30 M3 fanatic, wonder whether I’m defiling the Marque. But it doesn’t take long for me to become re-enthused about an E30 M3 with serious non-high-revving HP at almost no weight or balance penalty. Why not! These cars are not THAT rare. They are very cool and they’re the cheapest, coolest way to make a serious BMW hotrod. I sold my ’01 E46 M3 convertible, and plan to replace it with a 9/6/2002 build-date, ’03 M3, SMG, zero other option, coupe, with seats to be replaced with 15# race seats, to produce a 3200# car (still 250# more than a Porsche). If I do take delivery, it will provide my daily transportation while the ’88 takes shape.

http://members.roadfly.com/m3mark/z06m3.jpg

[suspenceman]

that is SICK!!! wow i cant wait to hear his track times.

[BS05ZHP]

That is crazy!!!

[kaiservon]

I'm not a real big fan of crossover transplants myself. But pwr-to-weight ratio should be phenominal. Isn't the LS6 block only 50lbs more than the E30 M3 motor?

[Whatup1049]

WOW thats INSANE:eek: :eek: I'd like to see how fast it is on the 1/4 mile!

[fable]

:eek:

[Bernman]

at a loss for words...WOW :eek:

Please keep us updated with your progress. Fantastic project :)

[mpbmw318is]

Should be interesting. . . I am also not a huge fan of sticking a non BMW motor in BMW, but, to each his own.

[Lance325is]

that is in one word sick. That think has got to fly and put a look onto anyones face he races..

[APZak]

Some people replace older 911 engines with small block chevys, too. The Porsche times were 0-60 in 4.8 and incredible quarter mile times, I can't remember I think 11s or 12s.

[Rahul325]

damn!!!! power of a corvette and handling of a BMW !!!!!!! that car is gonne kick some major a$$ !!!!!!

later...

[Tom Sederburg]

They've been putting them in Jag XJS's forever as well:

[mt3ch]

OMG! This is FREAKING INSANE! Who the hell are you? :devillook

That is by far the sickest thing I have ever scene. I thought Supra Engines in an E36 were sick, but umm.....Z06 Ls6! OMG! OMG OMG! Dude you just made my year! Gotta see how this thing hold up!

BTW, you interested in transplanting a Euro E36 M3 motor into a E46 coupe?

:dunno

Glad I decided to surf Bimmerforums today! :b_blue: :astromile

[SI///M3]

Even though a Chevy powered Bimmer is kinda wrong, it sure as hell makes sense. Where'd you get the info on this? My dad was wanting to do a project like this eventually...:devillook

[kaiservon]

I'm not doing this conversion. I just found it on another forum. I have done engine conversions before, but I could never muster something this extreme up myself. Heck the weirdest conversion I've seen was a buddy putting a ZR-1 motor into a late model Dodge full size pickup. And believe me, you could never plan this out thoroughly. Everything is custom made and retrofitted as you go along. You seriously need a full shop to do a crossover conversions correctly. MIG, TIG, ARC welders, plasma cutters, glass beater, lathes....everything. And know your wiring. My God, I could just imagine trying to make that somewhat compatible.:eek:

[JimBob]

Wow! Not too crazy about the bend in the air intake or the room at the firewall, but whatever makes you happy.

[Kos-motate139]

The e30 M3 weighs 106kg, about 233 lbs. Anyone know where a small block chevy tips the scales?

I shook my head when I first saw this over on RF too...but still I've got to believe the world is a better place for having people like this guy in it...

[Bernman]

Would you guys mind posting the link to the "other forum" please? :)

[ihooklow]

Gotta love cool conversions...


Originally posted by kaiservon
[B]Can you believe that someone actually did this?! Found this on another board ---------------

Then along came a very nice 1988 M3, at what I later came to realize was a steal at $7000.


Sux that he is cutting up such a great car. :bawl



The entire balance and feel of the original E30 M3 should be retained...


:lol:

You go on tellin' yourself that, buddy. There is a pretty significant weight penalty. The engine itself may only be 50 -100# more but add trans (and eventually the rest of the driveline)... c'mon... this guy has been hitting the laughing gas a little too often.

Balance will be screwed as well. Half the weigh of that new engine (possibly more) is out past the front axle. Go add a 25 - 50# front bumper to your car and see how well it handles.

Don't get me wrong. I hope that he finishes it and it works well. It's one of the things I love about BMWs that there are so many possibilities...

I just think if you want a Camaro (not Camero - idiot), you should have purchased a Camaro.

FWIW

[Kos-motate139]

Other thing is that the one e30 M3 I've spent time in is prepared to SP specs, basically bolt-ons, Mass Airflow, etc, say it's got 220 hp on a good day -- it has trouble keeping the rear down through 245/45x16 Hoosiers. Depending on the course, it can be faster with the spare tire in the trunk to help get the power down.

This guy will have the ultimate tire melting machine for sure. :)

I saw mention of this on Roadfly's e30 board. Roadfly's good for older stuff (2002s, e21, e30s, etc) but their e36 and newer sections just have too much noise to be helpful. Bimmerforums is tops there. :D

[AZ_Matt]

This man is my hero. I hope to do this to my car someday.

[E36 Fanatic]

I don't think this guy knows what he's talking about.
Some mistakes me made that are pretty basic knowledge if you're doing this:
The E30 M3's engine is a 4 cylinder
He doesn't know how to spell Camaro
If the LS1 can make more power than the LS6, then why did GM design it?
The LS1 is more than 50 pounds heavier I would bet. (of course I don't know the weights off hand)
E30's aren't THAT rare?
And why did he go with the M rather than a regular 3er? - he's "scrapping" the suspension anyway.

It's pretty awesome that someone did that, but it's only useful at the dragstrip.

[DSK M3/4]

i saw a big block in an E12 once... i still think that was a little crazier than this guy. i like the creativity.

[Kyle K.]

He listed why he chose the m3... 5 bolt wheel pattern, tighter steering, bigger brakes, wider fenders, 4.10 diff. The suspension isn't the only difference.

Anyway, that car would be pretty amazing.... but he's going to need some serious tires on the back to get any power down

[joe325i]

i say congrads on that transplant... props to the mecanic (if theytook it in) on that work and if they did it them selves sheit ill give you my kidney now.
but im not much a fan of american power in a bmw..... i hate american cars personally every last one of em.. but! they wanted it so they got it!:buttrock
congrads dude.. thats a hellva swap def original..
rock on:buttrock

[SI///M3]

Originally posted by E36 Fanatic
I don't think this guy knows what he's talking about.
Some mistakes me made that are pretty basic knowledge if you're doing this:
The E30 M3's engine is a 4 cylinder
He doesn't know how to spell Camaro
If the LS1 can make more power than the LS6, then why did GM design it?
The LS1 is more than 50 pounds heavier I would bet. (of course I don't know the weights off hand)
E30's aren't THAT rare?
And why did he go with the M rather than a regular 3er? - he's "scrapping" the suspension anyway.

It's pretty awesome that someone did that, but it's only useful at the dragstrip.

He said the LS1 and LS6 are basically the same engine, and I'm not LS1 expert but I'm pretty sure thats pretty much true. LS1's are not very heavy engines (again I dont remember the exact specs), but they're no heavyier than putting a E36 M3 engine in there. Err, E30s ARENT that rare last I checked.... plus he got a good deal on it. If you were gonna spend the same amout of $ which would you pick, a 325 or a M3? I think it's pretty cool really. He's gonna have a car thats as fast (or faster) than putting in a AA turbo'd E36 engine for a hell of a lot less money.... plus who says F/I isn't possible in the future? :D I just hope he puts more info up as he goes along. :buttrock

Could somebody PLEASE post a link on where you got this at? I'd like to see if I can keep up on how hes doing because its really cool...

[joe325i]

i would personally rather spend the extra money to put a m3 engine in it or send it to AA instead of the corvette engine...
thats just my opinion though... the engines them selves arnt designed that well... they SHOULD be pushing more power for the size IMO.
but i do say... thats a hellva job that guy did, and i would like to know how it goes.

[AZ_Matt]

joe325i: Not true about the LS1 not being designed well. For what it is, it represents just about the ultimate level of development possible.

Here's what it's *NOT* - which will give you some ideas as to why I say that it is very well designed:

NOT expensive to build
NOT complex
NOT heavy
NOT fragile

It wasn't designed to push the limits on hp/liter or anything like that. It was designed to minimize the above factors, and in that aspect, it's phenomenal. Another thing to consider - even in 405HP LS6 trim, the Z06 Corvette is NOT A GAS GUZZLER... But the 3.2l E46 M3 is?

Also consider that <insert tuner here> Stage II heads and cam packages make over 400 HP at the wheels and rarely cost much more than $4K. Name one BMW engine that can do that!

I don't want to start a pissing match over this, though. So let's just say that it is a great engine for what it was designed for - just as BMW engines are great engines for the criteria that they are designed according to.

[SI///M3]

AZ_Matt's got it. Super ultra fancy complex doesn't always = better. SS328 had a writeup somewhere comparing a LS6 and S54, and franky, the LS6 beats the S54 in every catagory. I know this is a bimmer board, and we all love 'em, but that doesn't mean theres no other great stuff out there!

Pushing out alot of power with a large displacement engine is HARD! Why do you think the only 6L engines you see that put out 100hp/L are Lamborghini and Ferrari?? They aren't exactly affordable.... With a 2 liter engine its ALOT easyier to get 100hp/l, the higher the displacement the harder it is to keep that ratio (without FI at least). Hp/L doesn't mean much to me personally, sure theres tons of Hondas with 100 hp/l, but they also have 1.6 liters. I'd much rather have a "inefficient" engine with 300hp than a 'efficient' one with 150...

[kaiservon]

The guy who is doign this made a post about it on Roadfly. Evidentally he got lambasted for it, so not sure if he'll ever post again. But look and follow up on the E30 section on Roadfly.

[Bernman]

Ok, here are a few threads that the guy posted. The user's name is Bob Heacox

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/e30m3/messages/archive/msgsy2002w14/55751.html

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/e30m3/messages/archive/msgsy2002w14/56249.html

I didn't find the long post by him, but I am sure it's there somewhere. My eyes are too bleary to read any more. It is sad that someone with such a great attitude, and obvious love for the model, get so much negativity thrown at him.

What a great project...

Bernman...who is going off to dream about his E36 with an S70B56 (5.0 V12, 380 HP...)

[joe325i]

ahh sorry there.
thanks for smoothin it out with me... i didnt know they were designed for that.
thanks!

[badbadm]

Originally posted by SI///M3
Pushing out alot of power with a large displacement engine is HARD! Why do you think the only 6L engines you see that put out 100hp/L are Lamborghini and Ferrari??
I know everyone knows it, but BMW belongs on that rather short list also... they were one of the earliest to do it in a street car with the 6.1L engine for the McLaren F1. That engine is conceptually two S50B30 Euro engines melded together, and constructed of the most exotic materials available at the time. As is the S50, it is quite capable of putting out greater than 100 bhp/liter, and does so regularly. Lambo, on the other hand, is just recently beginning to approach such outputs.

[bmwpower]

Very interesting. It would be nice to see how long it takes him to explode the rear and everything else BMW in the driveline. There's no way the car is going to be able to take that much power without some sort of heavy modification to the BMW frame and driveline.

Granted, any modification of magnitude will definately kill the handling of the car. But then again, I'm sure he doesn't plan on road racing the thing.

[HR-M3]

Originally posted by E36 Fanatic
It's pretty awesome that someone did that, but it's only useful at the dragstrip.

The 1/4 mile or stop light to stoplight racing is what 90% of the American are into in any event. To that end, the car (if it is real - I have some reservations; looks, and sounds a bit fishy) would be a winner - twisted frame/body nothwithstanding.

[badbadm]

Originally posted by bmwpower
Very interesting. It would be nice to see how long it takes him to explode the rear and everything else BMW in the driveline. There's no way the car is going to be able to take that much power without some sort of heavy modification to the BMW frame and driveline.

Granted, any modification of magnitude will definately kill the handling of the car. But then again, I'm sure he doesn't plan on road racing the thing.
this is not a personal shot at bmwpower, but I would like to point out that every ounce of that quote is pure speculation. The BMW components might hold up, and the car might be an excellent road racer or track day car. You just don't know yet.
If I had the money and cajones, I would love to build that exact car. Why? Because it is experimental by definition, and that is fun. Not only is it fun, but for alot of people, it is the American way with cars.

[///M_Wraith]

BMW 350: 12 Cyl fury

http://www.bmw-power.de/Fahrzeuge/E30_350i_stelze/350_v12_8.jpg



Clicky Linky for More (http://www.bmw-power.de/Fahrzeuge/E30_350i_stelze/roberts_350_foto_uebersicht.htm)

[garycono]

I think it's great.......experimentation is part of the sport.....is this a great country or what ?

[Bry]

I think it is sad that he did that to an E30 M3. These cars are becomming more rare (2500 estimated in the US) and to go and put a corvette motor in one of these cars just doens't get me going. I can't understand why people would want to do that, I guess they care about their 1/4 mile times and 0-60. I have no idea what my 1/4 mile time is, but I can tell you the time around the Nurburgring.

Sure it is very different, but to receive help, he will have to go to the corvette community, and then also the BMW community. The resale value of that car would not be very good in my opinion either. I would rather see this done to an E30, as you can find lots in junkyards to do whatever you wish.

To each their own I guess...

[JasonJ75]

Umm..This guy isn't going to need any help....

[LSs1Power]

Originally posted by kaiservon

http://members.roadfly.com/m3mark/z06m3.jpg


WOW that is one impressive thing. He gets best of both worlds, power and handling.

[SilverSS]

Someone go back to where ever it was found, and try and get that guys 1/4 times.

[bmw325is]

AZ mat what track are yu at in your sig picture?

[AZ_Matt]

Some little 1/4 paved oval outside of Minneapolis. Set up a course with a chicane on the front straight and a two turn "infield section" on the back. Nothing fancy...

I can dig up more details on the track and the club that I was racing with if you'd like. It was a one time deal for me, a road trip to see a buddy up there.

[bmw325is]

I was just checking to see if it was a track in AZ. I live in cave creek az. Do you race with asra?

[SSDriver]

Originally posted by E36 Fanatic
I don't think this guy knows what he's talking about.
Some mistakes me made that are pretty basic knowledge if you're doing this:
The E30 M3's engine is a 4 cylinder
He doesn't know how to spell Camaro
If the LS1 can make more power than the LS6, then why did GM design it?
The LS1 is more than 50 pounds heavier I would bet. (of course I don't know the weights off hand)
E30's aren't THAT rare?
And why did he go with the M rather than a regular 3er? - he's "scrapping" the suspension anyway.

It's pretty awesome that someone did that, but it's only useful at the dragstrip.

Ok first off the LS1/LS6 blocks are identical, the only difference between the enigines are the heads/cam/and intake. As the guy said if you get some work done on the heads, change the cam/intake you will definitly have more horsepower than a LS6/Z06 motor. How do I know, simple I drive an LS1 equiped Camaro and I have seen many, many people make their LS1's create way more hp than an LS6. And btw the 2001-2002 SS Camaros have an LS6 intake on them. GM just simply modifyed the LS1 and called it an LS6 so this guy seems to more about the LS1 than you think you know.

[LSs1Power]

Originally posted by SSDriver


Ok first off the LS1/LS6 blocks are identical, the only difference between the enigines are the heads/cam/and intake. As the guy said if you get some work done on the heads, change the cam/intake you will definitly have more horsepower than a LS6/Z06 motor. How do I know, simple I drive an LS1 equiped Camaro and I have seen many, many people make their LS1's create way more hp than an LS6. And btw the 2001-2002 SS Camaros have an LS6 intake on them. GM just simply modifyed the LS1 and called it an LS6 so this guy seems to more about the LS1 than you think you know.

Totally agree with what SSDriver said. For example, a stock LS1 are dynoing at 290-320RWHP for Z28-SS-C5 due to the catback difference. Oh and by the way the C5 does dyno between the Z28-SS numbers due to its independent rear end. Anyways lets get back to the Z06. The 01 Z06 does dyno at 330-340RWHP and the 02 Z06 does dyno at 350-360RWHP. Some Z28's with only a intake, catback, headers put down the same numbers, let alone the Heads/Cam. Adding a CAM alone on a LS1 with these simple bolt ons will make the car dyno between 360-405 RWHP depends on how aggressive the cam is. Adding Heads/Cams will put a LS1 at 390-450 RWHP depends on the setup again. If u add the same cam on a LS6 engine then the Z06 will still put down more HP due to the better flowing heads, but when doing the heads on the LS1 the LS6 doesnt have any more advantage over the LS1. So If you add the same heads/cam package on a 02 Z06 u will get the same amount of RWHP to the wheel.


Originally posted by E36 Fanatic


If the LS1 can make more power than the LS6, then why did GM design it?
The LS1 is more than 50 pounds heavier I would bet. (of course I don't know the weights off hand)

I think they did design it because they want it be in the same catogery as Vipers, 911 Porsche's, and 360 modena's with less than half the price.

I dont think there is 50 pounds between the LS1 and LS6 because bascially they are the same engine with different Intake manifold( than 98-00 LS1), Heads, and cams.

[iamane30m20nut]

Wow... with big brakes the dive would be phenomenal with the stock suspension. Hell... dive right now must be insane. Shoulda done that with a E30 325i or 325is. I know he cited his reasons, but the E30 M3 is an entirely different beast, and, frankly, it pisses me off when someone does something like that to it. They are a very pure handling machine, and when someone puts in a heavier engine or massive stereo install, it just gets my blood boiling. My $.02

[Bry]

Originally posted by iamane30m20nut
Wow... with big brakes the dive would be phenomenal with the stock suspension. Hell... dive right now must be insane. Shoulda done that with a E30 325i or 325is. I know he cited his reasons, but the E30 M3 is an entirely different beast, and, frankly, it pisses me off when someone does something like that to it. They are a very pure handling machine, and when someone puts in a heavier engine or massive stereo install, it just gets my blood boiling. My $.02

I agree with you about getting the blood boiling.

Although, it is a common myth that bigger brakes will help you brake better. The E30 M3's brakes are capeable of stopping the car even on the racetrack. You only need to upgrade to bigger brakes if you are getting a lot of brake fade. The stockers will do just fine, especially if you are dragging, or just street driving.

[JRHAWK9]

I -REALLY- hope your not implying that that car will outhandle a ZO6??? :biglaughb I don't know a whole bunch about BMW's, but I don't think they make anything that will out handle/brake/accelerate the ZO6.....

Paul



Originally posted by Rahul325
damn!!!! power of a corvette and handling of a BMW !!!!!!! that car is gonne kick some major a$$ !!!!!!

later...

[kaiservon]

If you profess to say that you don't know a whole lot about BMW's, then how can you safely assume the a BMW isn't good enough to outpace a Z06. The E30 M3 was, and by some comparisons still is, one of the best handling street cars made. If the estimates are correct an extra 50lbs of weight in the front end can be easily compensated to balance the car. Power-to-weight this M3, if build strong enough and is sorted out, can easily outdo a Z06. It's using a Z06 motor for God's sake and it'll be almost 300lbs lighter!

[JRHAWK9]

I never said that I SAFELY assumed it :D

I just know that the ZO6 handles/brakes/accelerates extremely well in stock form.

[NEOBOGZ]

wow ! although i love bmw engines i think this is awesome. part of tuning cars is coming up with some pretty cool creations. this is one of those ! good luck and have fun.

might want some serious binders though !