Suspension experts

[Trackout]

Hey, I know this has been worked over and over. I just need one last sanity check before I make the plung. I'm looking to upgrade the suspension on my stock 98 4 door M3. It is street driven about 8k annually and tracked about 18 days a year. I have pretty well made up my mind to go with H&R sport springs and Bilstein sports.(I like to keep things simple) My mechanic has recommended I get some camber plates for easy alignment. I know UUC's new plates should work well with the H&R/ Bilsteins. I also have read many times that jsut swapping the strut hats will provide more negative camber.

Sanity check: Can I save a few bucks and get away with the hat swap, or should I spend the extra bucks and get the camber plates?

Thanks!

[TC535i]

What kind of tires do you run, street and track? R-comps? How agressive are you at the track?

[ChipM]

Swap. Camber plates are great if you're racing and really dialing in the alignment, but for a driving school/track car they don't provide a lot of benefit over swapped strut hats.

On a '95 you get more camber by rotating the hats 120 degrees (but you lose caster). This is great because if you learn to set toe (easy) then you can very quickly go from normal camber on the street to much more negative for the track. Once you learn it, you can rotate the hats and reset toe in about 25 or 30 minutes.

[ex wrx]

i did the hat swap. i am running around 2.5 neg. degrees of camber on both sides, with zero toe. it is the poor mans camber plates. If you have the cash i wouls suggest gettin the camber plates...

[tpb31]

I swapped the hats and it works great for the track. Most people I know who have camber plates just set it once and leave it in that setting. Whihc is basically what you are doing by swapping the camber plates.

[TC535i]

He's putting a lot of street miles on it tho. All depends. If you want a way to get a lot of traction out of r-comps at the track but still get good mileage out of street tires, run adjustable plates. If you just want more camber all the time and don't really care about tire wear, the hats are cheaper. Still, the adjustable plates are MUCH less expensive than burning thru an $800 set of tires... something to think about.

[Trackout]

What kind of tires do you run, street and track? R-comps? How agressive are you at the track?


I'll be using track "R" tires. I believe I drive fairly aggresively.

[ChipM]

He's putting a lot of street miles on it tho. All depends. If you want a way to get a lot of traction out of r-comps at the track but still get good mileage out of street tires, run adjustable plates. If you just want more camber all the time and don't really care about tire wear, the hats are cheaper. Still, the adjustable plates are MUCH less expensive than burning thru an $800 set of tires... something to think about.

Yep. As long as you learn to set camber and toe yourself, its a good idea. Paying for an alignment every time would add up.

Wonder if anyone has tried to rotate 96+ plates? If you rotate a normal plate, you'd get negative camber and a little change in caster - is this an option? I'm not as familiar with the way the new plates fit into the strut tower.

[Trackout]

Thanks for the input. Much appreciated.

[euro4life]

If you're really trying to save money and are just going with an off the shelf spring and shock kit, I would just swap your existing hats. It will give you a little more camber in the front.

If you want to play with the suspension and get it dialed in, then don't mess with a spring and shock kit. Go with a coilover and run an adjustable camber plate. There is a reason some of these camber plates don't fit standard size springs. Somebody serious enough to care about front and rear camber is going to care about spring rates, ride heights, and corner weights as well.

You can zero out the front toe to save the front tires. I run -3* on the street and still get decent wear out of my tires. I swap them side to side about halfway through their life. (Barring the tread design is symmetrical)

[SG_M3]

why not look at a set of coilovers? either the GC kit or TCK kits. You will be a lot happier on track and won't give up that much in ride comfort.

[euro4life]

why not look at a set of coilovers? either the GC kit or TCK kits. You will be a lot happier on track and won't give up that much in ride comfort.
Just to add to what Sean said...

Most people will tell you the softer sprung kits actually ride nicer than stock.

A few years ago, when I first picked up my car I rode in a GC track/school car with 375/450 and it rode more comfortably than my stock 328 suspension (not to mention handled a million times better.)

On a side note, if you go with the Bilstein/H&R combo, you may need to trim the internal bumpstops to better agree with the ride height. I haven't followed the Bilstein's very closely but this issue may have been resolved from what I have read. *edit* Rob just told me they did shorten the strut some. They would probably not give you any problems.

[E36M3E]

you will have next to no travel with your car lowred on stock struts...the struts are already bottoming on the bumpstops in even easy cornering.

the stiffer HR springs will help but youll still be bottoming...get some shortened struts OR GC coilovers. they are shortened for increased travel.

my .02

[Trackout]

Thanks again guys. If I go with the H&R's, I will get the shortened Bisteins with them. I have been assured that the Bilstein bumpstop issue has been corrected. Sean and Josh, thanks for your input, I was hoping to hear from you. Believe me, I have been considering the GC and TCK coilovers. Some of the reasons I've been steering away from the coilovers is that I know I'll have trouble finding the time and knowledge to dial them in and the fact that everyone is saying they make popping noises etc. I have had experience with bilsteins and sport springs in a previous track/ street car. I had 45 plus track days on that set up as well as 70k street miles. I was always happy with the way it felt. I also recently had a student at an event with a 2001 330i. He had the H&R sports with Bisteins. His car felt very good on the track. I was quite surprised. Thanks again, still trying to make the final decision.

[SG_M3]

Sean and Josh, thanks for your input, I was hoping to hear from you. Believe me, I have been considering the GC and TCK coilovers. Some of the reasons I've been steering away from the coilovers is that I know I'll have trouble finding the time and knowledge to dial them in and the fact that everyone is saying they make popping noises etc.

The install time is no more than a spring/shock combo, less of a install time if you get camber plates.

The setup time is setting the ride height, which is very easy. Extra time if you have camber plates to get your street/track marks on an alignment rack.

You can get front spring pop if you don't grease the perches. You will get rear spring pop under extra slow suspension articulations. Not that big of a deal. There are trade offs, but the benefits greatly out weigh problems.

[ChipM]

The setup time is setting the ride height, which is very easy. .

It isn't easy if you don't own or have access to a set of scales, and someone who knows how to use them.

[fatboycowen]

It isn't easy if you don't own or have access to a set of scales, and someone who knows how to use them.

I got my GC coilovers last winter with the intentions of getting it corner ballanced. I ended up having a friend do a regular alignment for free, and never got around to ballancing. I autocrossed and tracked all last season, plus at least 10k street miles, and havnt regretted anything yet. I set the ride height myself with a tape measure. I dont think corner ballancing is completely nessesary, but im sure it helps. I put it off for a year until i get camber plates.

I havnt heard my rear springs pop, except for when i just lowered the car from the jacks. My front spring just creek when i turn the wheel all the way when i am stopped. Otherwise, they are silent. I love the ride with 500/550 spring rates. I am very glad i didnt bother with spring/shocks, as i didnt spend that much more this way.

[RJ's325ITS]

I got my GC coilovers last winter with the intentions of getting it corner ballanced. I ended up having a friend do a regular alignment for free, and never got around to ballancing. I autocrossed and tracked all last season, plus at least 10k street miles, and havnt regretted anything yet. I set the ride height myself with a tape measure. I dont think corner ballancing is completely nessesary, but im sure it helps. I put it off for a year until i get camber plates.

I havnt heard my rear springs pop, except for when i just lowered the car from the jacks. My front spring just creek when i turn the wheel all the way when i am stopped. Otherwise, they are silent. I love the ride with 500/550 spring rates. I am very glad i didnt bother with spring/shocks, as i didnt spend that much more this way.


My friend tony had that set up on his old M3 and he hate it once he autox his car for the first time on his sign. on BF. you can see his side skirt almost hiting the ground. you have to understand that waht make the diference is the spring rate, He totaled that car and he just got a new M3 that came withe the Ground Control set up w/ 500 lbs springs on the front and the rear the car feels fantastic he loves it. I got on my daily driver what I was told the last springs made from H&R, they are race springs not like the ones you are going to get those are called "race" but htey are not my spring are green and blue they are 570lbs front and 680lbs on the rear and I would not change them for anything, when I bought them Will Turner told me if I wanted anything more stiff I had to go w/ coilovers.

here is a pic.

look at the front part of the side skirt he bottom down all turns

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b103/rafaelnos/xtrmn8r.jpg

[jayhudson]

It isn't easy if you don't own or have access to a set of scales, and someone who knows how to use them.

You don't need scales to set ride heights. Corner balancing is another story.

Also, the GC articulating weight jackers make setting rear ride height much easier :D

Jay

[M3Armand]

Sanity check: Can I save a few bucks and get away with the hat swap, or should I spend the extra bucks and get the camber plates?

Get the camber plates from Motor Force! With mine, I can dial them in for street and track in about 5 min per corner....

[fatboycowen]

Get the camber plates from Motor Force! With mine, I can dial them in for street and track in about 5 min per corner....

Whats the difference between GC and Motorforce camber plates? Is there one which is better? I may be buying soon, so i would like to know. Is there a big price difference?

[SG_M3]

Whats the difference between GC and Motorforce camber plates? Is there one which is better? I may be buying soon, so i would like to know. Is there a big price difference?

one is the copy, the other is the orginal.

GC and TCK both have great camber plates, can't go wrong with either.

[4ZPN]

Get the camber plates from Motor Force! With mine, I can dial them in for street and track in about 5 min per corner....

Does anyone happen to know how much the toe changes when you change the camber?

[SG_M3]

Does anyone happen to know how much the toe changes when you change the camber?

toe change isn't linear.

Most set their cars up with slight toe in or 0 toe for the street then just live with the toe out they get for the track.

[JamesM3M5]

On a side note, if you go with the Bilstein/H&R combo, you may need to trim the internal bumpstops to better agree with the ride height. I haven't followed the Bilstein's very closely but this issue may have been resolved from what I have read. *edit* Rob just told me they did shorten the strut some. They would probably not give you any problems.[/i]
I have also verified on the updated Bilsteins (VE3-A585-H0 and VE3-A586-H0) that the bumpstops are also shorter. No need to trim those puppies.

BTW- I'm running swapped hats, barely lower than stock ride height, and camber correction bolts pushed to max negative camber, for a grand total of -3.0 to -3.2 degrees of camber on my M3. Also running 245/40/17 MX's on 17x8" wheels, zero toe. No funny tire wear at all.

[M3Armand]

Does anyone happen to know how much the toe changes when you change the camber?

With my MF with current stock shocks and springs (upgrading in spring time - see my Koni FSD vs. Kon Adjustables POLL!!!), I get:

-2.2 degrees = 1/16 toe out
-1.0 degrees = 1/16 toe in

[M3Armand]

Whats the difference between GC and Motorforce camber plates? Is there one which is better? I may be buying soon, so i would like to know. Is there a big price difference?

I had a hard time making the decision between GC, MF and TCK. My car is primarily driven on the street so I was apprehensive about "clunking" noises as warned by the GC salesfolks. At the time, GC did not have a "hybrid" camber plate design. They only had the "race" version which they admitted, made noise. Now, I see that they have the hybrid available. With the TCK, I just thought it was way too pricey for what I am willing to pay. Supposedly unique to their design is the ability to adjust the camber easily at the track. but I can and have done the same with my MF setup.

GC = $399
MF = $299 universal design + $80 for car-specific spring perch = $379
TCK = $550

If I were to start over, I'd choose between MF and GC. Since I am most likely buying my shocks from GC, I'd probably go with their camber plates since I like to "one-stop shop".

[4ZPN]

With my MF with current stock shocks and springs (upgrading in spring time - see my Koni FSD vs. Kon Adjustables POLL!!!), I get:

-2.2 degrees = 1/16 toe out
-1.0 degrees = 1/16 toe in

Thanks M3Armand, that's the info was looking for.
- Dave

[fatboycowen]

I had a hard time making the decision between GC, MF and TCK. My car is primarily driven on the street so I was apprehensive about "clunking" noises as warned by the GC salesfolks. At the time, GC did not have a "hybrid" camber plate design. They only had the "race" version which they admitted, made noise. Now, I see that they have the hybrid available. With the TCK, I just thought it was way too pricey for what I am willing to pay. Supposedly unique to their design is the ability to adjust the camber easily at the track. but I can and have done the same with my MF setup.

GC = $399
MF = $299 universal design + $80 for car-specific spring perch = $379
TCK = $550

If I were to start over, I'd choose between MF and GC. Since I am most likely buying my shocks from GC, I'd probably go with their camber plates since I like to "one-stop shop".

So, if my car sees about 50/50 track and autocross/street, would i be better off with the hybrid GC, or race GC? Is there any disadvantage to the hybrids? Will i wish i got the race CC plates?

[euro4life]

If you can't stand a little popping every once in a while, I would recommend the hybrid plates. You will lose a little stack height be they are pretty quiet.

[fatboycowen]

If you can't stand a little popping every once in a while, I would recommend the hybrid plates. You will lose a little stack height be they are pretty quiet.

If the popping isnt obscene, and the camber plates dont require much maintenence, then im going with the race plates.

Thanks for the help