technical question about stock DME's on euro s50's

[odortiz]

i didn't know where to post this, so i chose here because there are less children than in the e36 m3 forum and lots of track junkies use the real s50's.
so, i was looking through the etk, i was wondering what differences there are in the DME's bmw offers for the 3.0 six throttle s50.
i know the south african car has no air pump. any other differences. the reman DME for the ZA car is 12-14-1-404-768
in euro trim ther are more DME's
regular 318-839
natl ver austia/commonwealth 403-753
basic reman (no program?) 404-742
reman prog'ed m3 gt 404-666
reman commonwealth/japan 404-773

what commonwealth do they speak of?
why are austria and japan different from the rest of europe?
besides japan being in asia and sitting on the other side of the car:)
what is different on the m3 gt program?

i'm looking in your direction alex and techno550.
anybody with info please chime in.

[m3ltw98]

The M3 GTs dme prob had a different program since the GT had more aggressive cams, and bigger intake trumpets. Maybe some of them are different for inspection reasons (one country may have different restrictions) On my Group N ECU, the #s on it are 403-700

[odortiz]

regarding groupe n dme's, have you ever tried hooking up a scan tool to the diagnostic port? i have a snap-on tool with the bmw cartridge and since it has euro options, i'm wondering if it'll work.

[m3ltw98]

Never tried..

[gobuffs]

commonwealth = uk. I am assuming that austria/commonwealth really means Australia and not Austria. I would imagine that the ECU for the UK, Australia and Japan are all the same as they are all RHD Countries.

Now...what is the question?

PS I have a SA spec 3.2.

[M3 Euro LTW]

I do not know facts on the differences between the different DME's.

There may be some differences depending on EWS installation, that would be interesting. There may be minor differences depending on the harness used, and the wire diagrams for things like water temperature sensor, ie 2 in 1 or two separate ones. Some engines picked up oil temperature in the sump some don't.

The GT most certainly had different programming to accomodate and maximize the cams and intake trumpets that were different.

Some countries might have gotten dme without top speed limiting of 150mph.

The SA 3.2's had less compression, they probably had different DME.

Of course, there are the SMG versions as well, but you noticed that I'm sure.

Sorry I can not be of more help.

[BSH]

The SA 3.2's had less compression, they probably had different DME.This is true.

I just looked in the ETK and the part numbers are the same for the ZA- and ECE-spec S50 B30 pistons, so no compression difference.

[odortiz]

the 3 liter cars had bosch motronic 3.3 i think. in the us the 3.2 liter cars have seimens dme's is it the same for a euro 3.2?
all the above dme's are for a 3 liter euro.
as far as austria/australia, i double checked, it says commonwealth OR austria
keep the knowledge coming.
some intersting stuff.
anybody in NOVA have a euro with stock dme that we can use to see if my scanner can communicate with it?

gobuffs, how did you get a SA car? or is it just the engine?

[gobuffs]

the 3 liter cars had bosch motronic 3.3 i think. in the us the 3.2 liter cars have seimens dme's is it the same for a euro 3.2?
all the above dme's are for a 3 liter euro.
as far as austria/australia, i double checked, it says commonwealth OR austria
keep the knowledge coming.
some intersting stuff.
anybody in NOVA have a euro with stock dme that we can use to see if my scanner can communicate with it?

gobuffs, how did you get a SA car? or is it just the engine?

The 3.2 DME is Siemens MSS50.

I just have the motor from a SA spec sedan. The story I heard was it was delivered to SA (duh) then somehow ended up in England and was wrecked and in police impound for 2-3 years for being sold to a breaker which is where I bought it from. 23k miles.

I have used a Peake toold on my motor but there is no chart to crossreference to. You can guesstimate what the codes are by going to different charts.

[BSH]

I have used the Peake tool on my euro 3.0L and it does retrieve error codes from the Motronic 3.3. I use the US 3.0L code chart but I haven't been able to confirm how accurate it is.

[JamesM3M5]

The M3 GTs dme prob had a different program since the GT had more aggressive cams, and bigger intake trumpets. Maybe some of them are different for inspection reasons (one country may have different restrictions) On my Group N ECU, the #s on it are 403-700
What's the full PN to that Gr N DME? The S50B32 w/o SMG uses 12 14 1 403 700.

[PrestoMB]

This is pretty interesting stuff. David are we looking in to getting a true S50:devillook :alright ?

[m3ltw98]

What's the full PN to that Gr N DME? The S50B32 w/o SMG uses 12 14 1 403 700.

It has 1 403 700 on the side and than on top there is another sticker which says:
S50B32 Gr. N
GN03
417-N-010
25.5.2000

I assume the 25.5.2000 indicates the date (5/25/2000)

[odortiz]

This is pretty interesting stuff. David are we looking in to getting a true S50:devillook :alright ?
i would really like one but i have no reason to spend the money yet. both my old ass cars don't even burn any oil. m3 has 120k and 325 has 180k.
i have a really active immagination too. so if i sit still for 5 minutes, my mind can think of ways to spend billions on a single car. we'll see when my engine's making more noises.:)

[m3s3dave]

It has 1 403 700 on the side and than on top there is another sticker which says:
S50B32 Gr. N
GN03
417-N-010
25.5.2000

mine reads
S50B32 Gr. N
GN04
417-n-011
5.11.99

[M3 Euro LTW]

My head is swirling, I'm in the process in my living room of massive electrical project. I've cut up a harness from a SMG euro 3.2 engine to use the DME and Diagnostic port and their wires. I've also cut up a Euro car's under-dash harness to scavenge the Cluster plugs, EWS module plug, FM transmitter, Key ring and ignition switch while deleting the various relays to set up a small, compact box that will hold all these parts with only 4 items coming OUT of the box:

DME plug
EWS plug
Diagnostic port
Key hole that includes the antennae and switch behind it
Postive and Negative leads for a power souce

I would like to be able to bring this box to the dealership, with keys, dme's or EWS boxes to align them without having to put my car on a trailer, trailer to the dealer and plug and play with the harness on my car to to all that.

Quite a project.

I think the wiring is done, now I have to go back and "cap off" or heat shrink about 50 loose wires off the dme plug so they don't short out any sections of the DME when I plug this puppy in. Output stages for coils, or injectors and such carry current, and I've not grounded everything, and the cut bundles of wire might short out those amp sections in a DME as I try and alighn it.

Whew...

OK, the relevant point is, thanks to the post earlier on this thread, it was easy to download some wire diagrams for DME. Now that I'm fairly well aquanted with all 88 or so slots on the DME plug, and the wires that come off the DME... it became obvious from the wire diagrams that the Japanese cars have some weird set of changes from ROW market. There is a mechanism to alter emissions or change something if the cats see a temperature greater than whatever it was for 6 seconds and then DO something about it..... I didn't go into MORE detail, but as I suspected was possible, it was an emissions thing that had a different wire diagram. So, I assume that the DME is slightly different to accomodate that function.

[BSH]

Wouldn't it be great if an ECU tuner like NickG could eliminate/bypass/disable the EWS requirement of the Siemens MSS50 DME?

I'm sure he could do it.

[M3 Euro LTW]

I'd go for world hunger, or world peace, but, yeah, that one is up on my list too.

:)

Think how weird we've become. There are maybe 300 people in the US that really understand what you just wrote.

[gobuffs]

Wouldn't it be great if an ECU tuner like NickG could eliminate/bypass/disable the EWS requirement of the Siemens MSS50 DME?

I'm sure he could do it.

That would be sweet. Mark D'Sylva one day told me he was going to try, and get back to me in a week. that was MONTHS ago. *sigh*. I was hoping he could delete the limp home mode with no diff to cluster speed signal (my original request)....but alas I got tired of waiting and ordered a 300 Euro part from Kempower. *sigh*

[odortiz]

My head is swirling, I'm in the process in my living room of massive electrical project. I've cut up a harness from a SMG euro 3.2 engine to use the DME and Diagnostic port and their wires.
are you building an smg e36?
please document well as it will be very interesting.

edit: nevermind. i think i just got what you are doing. ews aligner, minus a car.

[M3 Euro LTW]

You got it. Basically, a box that will allow me to go to the dealership minus a car, and align items when a new key, or a new EWS box, or a newly programmed race DME needs to be sold to a customer, or a customer has asked for a back up part.

Incidentally, I just took in a FULL SMG kit. I open the crate tomorrow, but I was sold the kit having been told all that I need is in there to install it completely and have it run.

There is a handicapped customer here in chicago that has expressed interest in buying it as a whole. That was not my original intent, however, it may go that way.

[BSH]

...but alas I got tired of waiting and ordered a 300 Euro part from Kempower. *sigh*What exactly did you purchase, Bruce?

[BSH]

Think how weird we've become. There are maybe 300 people in the US that really understand what you just wrote.Yes, it's quite the exclusive group. :cool

So exclusive that we don't even have someone in NA that can tune our DME's. :( :bawl

[gobuffs]

What exactly did you purchase, Bruce?

Some sort of signal generator. I am not using a stock cluster and the DME wants to see a speed signal from the stock cluster. Stock the speed signal comes from the diff to the cluster then to the DME. If the DME doesn't see that speed signal then it goes into limp home mode (or that is how I understand it). The box i bought from Kempower sends a signal from the DME via the same wire that the cluster sends it on.

[MarkD]

Yes, it's quite the exclusive group. :cool

So exclusive that we don't even have someone in NA that can tune our DME's. :( :bawl


That won't be the case for long, I plan to be doing this soon.

MarkD

www.dsylva-tech.ca

[tynashracing]

Some sort of signal generator. I am not using a stock cluster and the DME wants to see a speed signal from the stock cluster. Stock the speed signal comes from the diff to the cluster then to the DME. If the DME doesn't see that speed signal then it goes into limp home mode (or that is how I understand it). The box i bought from Kempower sends a signal from the DME via the same wire that the cluster sends it on.


In your experience, would it have been easier to keep the stock cluster and add gauges...or is it a moot point?

Ken A.

[gobuffs]

Easier? No. (hooking up 3 wires and mountng a small box was pretty damn easy. I didn't retain any sort of BMW dash so mounting a stock cluster would have been more difficult) Less expensive? Yes. Better with a stock cluster? Not IMO.

Ideal solution is to have somebody that can reprogram the DME to 1) get rid of EWS, 2) get rid of limp home mode, and 3) get more power. ;-) A guy can dream can't he?

[Colicious]

im sorry, but what does DME stand for and what do those numbers (like 400-700) stand for?

[BSH]

That won't be the case for long, I plan to be doing this soon.

MarkD

www.dsylva-tech.caEven the Siemens MSS50, Mark?

[BSH]

Ideal solution is to have somebody that can reprogram the DME to 1) get rid of EWS, 2) get rid of limp home mode, and 3) get more power. ;-) A guy can dream can't he?I've been dreaming about this for years. :(

[gobuffs]

Yeah I know...pipe dream. A guy can dream can't he?

DME = Digital Motor Electronics....aka ECU = engine control unit

400-700 numbers are the last digits of the BMW part number

[MarkD]

Even the Siemens MSS50, Mark?


That's correct. I tried to read 2 MSS50 DME's that were in cars that had Euro 3.2 transplants but was unable to read them. I have an MSS50 DME here now and am about to build a harness to connect to it in my office. Then I hope to be able to read and write it.

It's high on the "to do" list for this year.

MarkD

[BSH]

My head is swirling, I'm in the process in my living room of massive electrical project. I've cut up a harness from a SMG euro 3.2 engine to use the DME and Diagnostic port and their wires. I've also cut up a Euro car's under-dash harness to scavenge the Cluster plugs, EWS module plug, FM transmitter, Key ring and ignition switch while deleting the various relays to set up a small, compact box that will hold all these parts with only 4 items coming OUT of the box:

DME plug
EWS plug
Diagnostic port
Key hole that includes the antennae and switch behind it
Postive and Negative leads for a power souce

I would like to be able to bring this box to the dealership, with keys, dme's or EWS boxes to align them without having to put my car on a trailer, trailer to the dealer and plug and play with the harness on my car to to all that.

Quite a project.

I think the wiring is done, now I have to go back and "cap off" or heat shrink about 50 loose wires off the dme plug so they don't short out any sections of the DME when I plug this puppy in. Output stages for coils, or injectors and such carry current, and I've not grounded everything, and the cut bundles of wire might short out those amp sections in a DME as I try and alighn it.

Whew...Alex,

Have you looked into one of these tools? Apparently, it can align EWS among other things.

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-BMW-Diagnostic-system-obd-2-CS-6-1-6-5-Interface_W0QQitemZ8029615455QQcategoryZ30921QQssP ageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[M3 Euro LTW]

I have not bought such a device, and I'm not sure how it works. I don't see the port to plug into the diagnostic plug on the engine harness, so I don't know if this works independently of some other setup you need to buy, or what else is needed.

I get along very well with the local dealership, and have access through them to the computer set up to read and write alignment stuff for EWS.

The principle issue, or problem is that you need a proper harness, both car to incorporate the cluster, and engine. So many race cars that have problems, or project cars that include transplants may have harness issues, or miswired sections, or damaged components somewhere in the line, that its frustrating to not have a known good harness for engine and cluster and EWS portions where you can have a easy time testing JUST your key/fm modulater/antennae/EWS box/DME to see what is what.

Taking apart the dash of a friendly customer's "good" or "solid" or "known" car to ask a favor of working out EWS issues is not convienent, and MOST certainly, especially in the winter, its not fun or quick to load up my race car on the trailer, and drag it in to try and do these tasks. For the most part, you can't just bring in an EWS box on its own, and see if its "OK" without a car to plug it into.

Hence the test-set up I'm working on. I hope by the end of the weekend to have it nailed.