Drive Shaft Lose and thud when applying gas, [Archive] - Bimmerforums

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97alpineM3

11-30-2005, 07:16 PM

Ok... I've exhausted my self in the past month trying to do research as to what my problem is with the car.

Problem..

The car is set up like this when the thud is heard.

Just shifted upward durring acceleration. Clutch has been released into the new higher gear... the exact moment when the throttle is touched (provided it was a low RPM shift so no need to match throttle with release of clutch) to accelerate in the new gear... the thud is present.

Drive shaft appears to be lose.. but I do not know the allowable limit on shaft rotation when car is off. When wiggled back and forth... a faint metal on metal sound is heard. Sorta the same as the driving thud... but very faint. Conclusion has been made that it is something dealing with the drive shaft.

Things checked and or replaced....

Guibo
Center support bearing
Rear subframe bushings
Front diff bolt
All suspension in the rear (as the entire suspesion has been replaced... noise was present before installation of new suspension)

I'm am now lost as to what it could be.

Only thing that I have come to think to be the problem is... the car has 171k miles on it... the input shaft from the tranny into the drive shaft or the part that fits over the shaft from the tranny has been worn. Allowing play between the tranny and drive shaft resulting in the noise and play in the shaft.

Any imput as to what this problem could be are welcome. Please note that I have read anything and almost everything pertaining to thuds, drive shafts, differential movement and tranny problems on bf.c , m3f.c and various other sites.

Thanks in advance for your help,

Les

GGray

11-30-2005, 07:18 PM

its the center support bearing more than likely..thud is heard under the shifter..

Or a Bad Guibo..one of theose while you have it out replace both deals.

97alpineM3

11-30-2005, 07:23 PM

Did you read my post at all? Those have been replaced. Thanks for the reply non-the-less...

Les

thejlevie

11-30-2005, 07:43 PM

Was the rubber mount of the center bearing torn or cracked when it was replaced? If so it is almost certain that the damage to the center bearing was caused by bad universal joints in the drive shaft. A 170'ish K miles you are well into the range where the driveshaft universals are suspect. They aren't field rebuildable and a new or reman driveshaft is to only fix.

97alpineM3

11-30-2005, 07:54 PM

Thanks... I'll check that again...

Les

97alpineM3

11-30-2005, 08:32 PM

Anyone?

Les

deilenberger

11-30-2005, 11:25 PM

Anyone?

LesWhen you say you can feel play and hear a metal-to-metal noise - what EXACTLY are you doing? What are you wiggling and how are you wiggling it?

Need more data.. can't compute..

97alpineM3

12-01-2005, 09:11 AM

I am grabbing the drive shaft... and manually twisting it back and forth... there is no vertical play... only rotational... about a quater inch...

Les

GGray

12-01-2005, 09:38 AM

Sounds like shaft then. I forgot about the previous post's:D .

My 535 did the same thing sounded like a small hammer beating. The 535's went bad around 190k

BMuu

12-01-2005, 10:40 AM

I have the same problem but have just learned to live with it. I have replaced eveyrthing you mentioned and also replaced tranny mounts. I dont know what it could be.

Subscribing

deilenberger

12-01-2005, 10:53 AM

I am grabbing the drive shaft... and manually twisting it back and forth... there is no vertical play... only rotational... about a quater inch...

LesIn this case I'd be looking at the splines in the center of the shaft.. see if there is play. Where do you see the play? If it's just going into the diff - that's pretty much normal gear play.

97alpineM3

12-01-2005, 11:40 AM

I can manually rotate the shaft directly next to the Diff... and directly next to the tranny... There is no difference between locations for the amount of twist... thus taking the UV joints out of the senario...

Next week I will perform sugery... and take the entire thing down... and see what the input shaft on the tranny is doing... as that is my last resort...

I will keep you all posted...

Les

97alpineM3

12-02-2005, 10:39 AM

Bump??

Les

deilenberger

12-02-2005, 11:42 AM

Bump??

LesBump for what? We're waiting for the update.

It might be me being dense (that happens sometimes..) but I still can't understand where you're feeling play from your description.

IF you're rotating the driveshaft - and not holding any other particular part to keep it from rotating (like the guibo or the input coupling of the differential) - some play is normal. There are gear clearances in both the trans and the diff that appear as free-play in the input shaft of the diff and output shaft of the tranny. Without the free-play the units would bind and overheat.

If you are holding the guibo, and say twisting (rotating) the shaft at the other end near the differential - and you feel play - then you DO have a problem. Most likely a universal joint or the sliding coupling (if your front section has one..)

Keep us up to date on what you find when you get it all apart.

JPs325i

12-02-2005, 12:32 PM

I just took my 93 325i to the shop, and I had a 'thud' when shifting in every gear. It was silmilar to clumpymold's problem. I too replaced many things, but could not figure out the issue. Finally took it to the shop, and they determined I had a bad CV joint. Might want to check yours. 325i has 160K on her.

97alpineM3

12-10-2005, 02:00 PM

UPDATE:

Aight... took down the exhaust... and the heat sheilding this morning...

As a result...

I found....

A good center support bearing..
A good guibo
A good CV joint
A good U joint

I did not have any other movement with the shaft other than rotational.

The rotational movement is about a little over a quarter inch.

I placed a screw driver in between two bolts on the CV joint directly infront of the diff... to isolate movement from the rear... and the shaft still rotated.

I then placed the screw driver in between the rear facing guibo bolts... once the forward part of the drive shaft directly aft of the tranny was held still... you could not rotate the shaft.

The shaft is good... everything from my tranny to the rear is good...

Now... why am I getting this play from the tranny... wear and lots of miles.. (engine and tranny have 171.5k miles on them)...

Should this movement be considered ok with that many miles on there?

Is there anything I can do?

Thank you all...

Les

thejlevie

12-10-2005, 03:09 PM

That much rotational play in the transmission (with 170k) is probably slightly excessive, but I guess I'm not convinced that it is the cause of the thump. What gear was the transmission in when you checked the free play? It should be at a minimum in 5th gear and worse in the lower gears if it is internal transmission wear. Some rotational play in the transmission is normal.

What was the condition of the center bearing rubber mount when it was replaced? As I stated much earlier cracks or tears in the mount are almost certainly a symptom of binding drive shaft u-joints, which will cause a thump(s) when torque is applied to the drive train (typically worse in the lower gears). There's no way to detect binding or stiff u-joints while the drive shaft is in the car. That can only be checked with the driveshaft dismounted.

Have the engine, transmission, and diff mounts been checked? A visual inspection isn't sufficient and you have to pull/pry/push on them with considerable force to detect a failing mount.

97alpineM3

12-11-2005, 02:06 PM

Ok.... it was the worst in neutral... I checked all gears... just to see ..... it got slightly better as the gears went higher.. but still about a quarter inch rotational movement in 5th gear.

The center bearing rubber mount looks to be fine... no cracks... I moved the drive shaft around within the rubber bushing a a little depressing it in all directions... it took some force to move the drive shaft up and down to see the movement... correct me if I'm wrong.. but that is how it is meant to be.???????

as for the U joint... I had someone hold the front side of the shaft... while I tried to rotate/move/yank... anything I could to do on the other side of the U joint.. and there was no play at all...

The shop I work on my car at has all tools known to man.. so I pulled out a handy stethoscope with a metal rod on the end to listen for internal movement on engines and trannys... and had somone wiggle the drive shaft... the noise is most prevelent near the tranny where the drive shaft couples. The second loudest internal rattle is back by the constant velocity transfer to the diff.

Any other ideas?... Thank you 'hejlevie' for your ideas....

Les

thejlevie

12-11-2005, 03:25 PM

Ok.... it was the worst in neutral... I checked all gears... just to see ..... it got slightly better as the gears went higher.. but still about a quarter inch rotational movement in 5th gear.
I'm not sure I understand how you checked it when the tranny was in neutral. In that case then output shaft of the transmission is free to rotate.

The center bearing rubber mount looks to be fine... no cracks... I moved the drive shaft around within the rubber bushing a a little depressing it in all directions... it took some force to move the drive shaft up and down to see the movement... correct me if I'm wrong.. but that is how it is meant to be.???????
It isn't clear to me from the original post wheter the center bearing has been replaced. If that is the case what was the condition of the old centerbearing rubber mount. What you describe for the current condition of the center bearing is normal.

as for the U joint... I had someone hold the front side of the shaft... while I tried to rotate/move/yank... anything I could to do on the other side of the U joint.. and there was no play at all...
Unfortunately, except in extreme cases you can't tell anything about the condition of the driveshaft when it is mounted in the car. The usual failure of a driveshaft is that the universal joints become stiff and bind due to failure of the lubricant with time. A stiff or binding u-joint causes the driveshaft to flex when torque is applied and it will thump as it places pressure on the center bearing. This condition is usually more apparent in the lower gears (initially) because there's more torque on the driveshaft.

The shop I work on my car at has all tools known to man.. so I pulled out a handy stethoscope with a metal rod on the end to listen for internal movement on engines and trannys... and had somone wiggle the drive shaft... the noise is most prevelent near the tranny where the drive shaft couples. The second loudest internal rattle is back by the constant velocity transfer to the diff.
That may, or may not, be meaningful. The dynamics and loads of a car being driven is far different from when it is stationary.

Is the thump present on all shifts for about the same accelleration? A single thump on shifts that's present in all gears sounds to me more like a motor/transmission/differential mount. Or it could be a bad CV joint on either side of the differential.

If you accellerate hard up a hill from a dead stop is the thump worse and does it thump more than once in first? In this case it sounds to me like it might be binding u-joints in the driveshaft.

anthony95m3

12-11-2005, 03:45 PM

Have you checked the bushing of the front differential mount? That could be shot and causing the differential to rotate.

Do you hear a thud when accelerating or decel when in gear?

97alpineM3

12-11-2005, 04:06 PM

Hmm.. ok...

Answers for the jlevie:

- I cannot freely rotate the drive shaft in neutral.. I can only reach up and rotate back and forth a little over a quarter inch. The length of rotation gets smaller as I put the car in gear up to 5th.

- Center bearing is good/new. And from your conclusion the amount of movement is normal for the bushing with pressure applied.

- Something I did notice.. is that just driving around in 1st gear... or slowinng down and placing the car in 1st gear to slow down.. then maybe going 3-5 mph.. the car seems like it has one flat tire... it lurches back and forth... but only when very slow and when in 1st gear... once I push the clutch in.. that goes away...

- To explain the thump I hear... its a metal noise.. generally speaking.. the car has to be in gear... (only noticed this noise when in gear).. and the thud is present when the gas is pressed. No other time.. not when shifting.. nothing else.. only when accelerating.. and gas is pressed.

- If I launch the car.. I do not hear a thud from 1st gear.. though like I stated before.. if I travel around 3-5mph the car lurches... and that noise/thud is present...

- From a hill it does not make more than one thud.

anthony95m3:

- Yes I have checked and replaced those bushings. I have also checked the front diff. bolt. Accelerating in gear.

Thanks again guys,

Les

thejlevie

12-11-2005, 06:41 PM

Center bearing is good/new.
But you still haven't told us what the old center bearing looked like? Its condition (especially the rubber mount) is an important piece of diagnostic information. In a like manner if the guibo was replaced knowing what it looked like is just as important.

To explain the thump I hear... its a metal noise.. generally speaking.. the car has to be in gear... (only noticed this noise when in gear).. and the thud is present when the gas is pressed. No other time..
If the sound is a deep thud/bang sound, rather than more of a click, I'd say it isn't coming from the free play in the driveshaft. It sounds like the noise only occurs when torque is applied to the drive train. That could be a drivetrain problem, or it could be that something is shifting (engine, transmission, differential) when the car transitions from between a lift and power condition. The driveshaft could be involved, but then the observed free play may bs just a red herring.

I'm afraid this one is unlikely to be solved by playing 20 questions in an Internet forum. Nothing you've been able to tell us points definitively to any particular thing, in my opinion. I'd have to have hands on access to the car to be able to properly diagnose this.

Have you had a very experienced BMW indie shop (or a dealer) try to diagnose this? If you haven't I'd suggest that you do so.

97alpineM3

12-11-2005, 07:36 PM

The center bearing was ok.. just a little worn... not as free as the new one... as for the rubber mount... looked fine when visually inspected and moved around.

Thanks for the advice...

Les

BMWManiac

12-19-2005, 11:15 PM

I think I'm in the same boat...here is my "thud"

It sounds like its coming directly under the shifter or more to the rear of the car.

I get a thud sound mostly when I'm traveling at a slow speed and then I push in the clutch (most audible)
I can also get the thud by flooring the accelerator in first gear and then immediately taking my foot off (audible but not as loud)
Lastly, whenever I shift gears, unless I do a smooth transition, I hear it.

My conclusions:
I've check the diff and I have the AA DSB and its solid.
I've check the flex disc and no threads, no cracks, looks great.
I still need to check the subframe mounts.

This thud/clunking noise was noticed the day I picked up my car after getting the turbo installed...thought it might be turbo related, but I guess I need to check some things.

black_box

12-21-2005, 01:57 PM

tag.

97alpineM3

12-21-2005, 07:36 PM

Update....

Noticed the noise was gone when the tranny was absolutely cold...

I will be yet again replacing the fluid...

I will update afterwards...

Les

TC535i

12-21-2005, 07:39 PM

Have you changed your transmission mounts recently?

Over time, they can compress. Don't look bad, but they don't hold the transmission as high as they would brand new. The lower transmission changes the angles, and you can get a clunking sound.

Something to think about...

97alpineM3

12-21-2005, 07:42 PM

Mars

12-21-2005, 09:23 PM

My car was making the same sound in the same situations. My mechanic changed the CV joint and it fix the problem. Might work for you....:dunno

Heres a pic. Number 15

97alpineM3

12-23-2005, 03:08 PM

Aight so I replaced the fluid today... still makes noise when fluid is warm...

Something about the temperature has something to do with it... when the car is cold.. I can not induce the sound... any way at all.

Once she is warm though... the sound is evendent just as the first post to this thread states...

I have no clue...

Les

AxisPower

11-19-2006, 09:44 PM

Its a common occurence especially at low rpm shifts. Recommend shifting at higher rpm...

In my case, it only happens in the beginning and than goes away after a few miles of driving. I actually don't notice it anymore b/c I've read that our cars are naturally responsive to higher rpm shifts and I've adopted the habit of shifting at a minimum of 3.5 - 4k.

kinghawk

11-19-2006, 11:59 PM

Not to scare you but I would suggest you check your rear subframe mounts and/or underbody. Common failure with a lot of BMW's

nickdrivesm3

11-20-2006, 12:45 AM

97alpineM3

11-20-2006, 07:10 PM

Have you ever done RTABS on your car? Under acceleration, the rear control arms move outward under accelercation. Bad Bushings for these control arms will cause a thud and the car will basically jerk back and fourth.

I doubt your subframe bushings are bad, and I doubt your CV joint is bad. This sounds like the only thing you have not checked.

Nope... I have not checked those... but I've had the bushings rolling around in the trunk for about a year... just too lazy to get the tool to do it... Thanks for the idea. This might get me off my ass.... haha...

If it is the diff... I shall know soon enough though... my diffsonline diff is coming soon.

Les

jaydizel

11-28-2006, 01:52 AM

m3boost

11-28-2006, 02:19 AM

You need to detach the drive line to see if the U-joint is stiff.... even with a new center carrier, the drive line will slap upon acceleration. that's probably why you don't hear it as much when it's cold. the rubber in the center carrier is cold and stiff and holds better...but once it gets warm, the rubber softens and you hear it more.

jaydizel

11-28-2006, 01:04 PM

Mad Dog 20/20

11-28-2006, 04:13 PM

they all do that.

Dispatch20

11-28-2006, 07:57 PM

Before I put in my LTW flywheel and tranny moutns, my driveshaft was pretty silent most of the time.

Once I installed those, I get a moderately loud thwack if I don't shift lightning quick. If the engine/tranny/driveshaft get any sort of momentum (either forward or backward) and I push the clutch in....I get the thud. I may have installed the driveshaft with too much, or too little (preloading the center bearing) slack.

I retorqued my tranny mounts to no success.

97alpineM3

11-28-2006, 08:00 PM

Thud still there... 180k miles later.... no joke... actually.. I lie... its at 179k and some change... thud still there... at least since about 90k... about 90k miles later... same thud...

I'm gonna change then entire drive shaft... and the diff shortly... we'll see if that helps.

I'm figuring its the diff... its still on the stock diff... when slowing with gears... theres a nice tinging sound from the diff... its about time to change her... :)...

Thanks for the ideas guys.

Les

Xtatic

05-10-2007, 01:11 PM

report back

Getconnectedav

05-10-2007, 02:30 PM

Please.

theimage

05-10-2007, 03:32 PM

UPDATE:

I placed a screw driver in between two bolts on the CV joint directly infront of the diff... to isolate movement from the rear... and the shaft still rotated.

I then placed the screw driver in between the rear facing guibo bolts... once the forward part of the drive shaft directly aft of the tranny was held still... you could not rotate the shaft.

The shaft is good... everything from my tranny to the rear is good...

Les

Perhaps my thinking is flawed, but what you did above tells me that the slop is from where the shaft connects into the diff.

I just had my drive shaft replaced. My shop showed me my old drive shaft, pointing to the excessive looseness at the u-joint. He said it might've had another 5k until it came apart.

A remanufactured drive shaft was installed, "better than new". My understanding is that the stock u-joints are welded into the drive shaft, thus the u-joint cannot be simply replaced. One could buy a new drive shaft, or a rebuilt one.

To rebuild a driveshaft, the stock u-joint is drilled out and a new u-joint is installed. The shaft has been machined so that a snap ring secures the new u-joint. This is the reason why the rebuilt driveshaft is better than new. The final step of a rebuild is to rotationally balance the driveshaft.

Other than this idea, it sounds like you've already considered the other potential causes. Be diligent in your troubleshooting before you throw more new part$ in there.

Edit: Gosh, I just realized how long ago this thread began! Anyways, perhaps I added some value for someone.

BMWManiac

05-10-2007, 04:01 PM

Just so you all know, my buddy has a 98 M3 w/ 11K original miles and it does it....I think it has always been there, we all just probably never noticed it.

19982point8

05-21-2007, 11:57 PM

I havnt taken time to read all of your posts but id double check the u joints, my car started making this thud like metal on metal noise in all gears and i thought it was slack in the diff or something, i went in for a closer look and i can now move the drive shaft up down and all around eventhough before when i heard this noise i couldnt, the u joint is f***** in my car, if you come to the same conclusion i have bavauto.com sells driveshafts with "operable" universal joints so if you have this problem again it will be a cheap fix.

Roguls

05-23-2007, 04:46 PM

I believe I have this problem too. When on the lift, I moved the rear tires front to back to make a click; my click is coming from the driver's side axle shaft (the cv joint connected to the diff). I'm looking forward to paying the 500 plus bucks for a part that should not go bad...

Check it out. It may be your problem.