Should I trade my e36 M3/4 for an e39 M5? (long-winded)

[LarryTwohig]

Bigger. Faster.

Better? Badder?

Here's my dilemma:

I'm looking to either upgrade to a larger car now, or wait 6 months and instead get 2 cars, one family car and one sports car. I say 6 months because at that time my wife should be back at work and driving.

I tested an '02 M5 yesterday for a good 25 min on backroads in Connecticut and on the highways... beastly to say the least - it was still pulling hard until the lack of spit in my mouth told me to back off (at 130mph!)

Even the dealer started giggling next to me when I crested 110 in 4th... he yells '2 more gears to go!' over the roar of the V8. Man, what a sweet tune that engine sings!

My wife, who doesn't yet drive, took a ride after with the dealer, as I watched our baby, and she wanted to take it home right away... I can't believe I was the 'sensible one' who said we need to think it thru... but really in the back of my mind I was weighing whether I should pass on the upgraded 'family car ' the M5, hang on to the '98 e36 M3 (which we're finding a squeeze right now on road trips with the baby, and a friend or relative or two) until she can drive (next spring), then get her own vehicle, freeing me up to get either a 911 or e46 M3. All these cars are pretty much low-$30k's by the way.

the M5 lived up to its reputation in my book though, but at twice the price of my M3, I don't know if it's twice as good!

oh, one more thing about the M5... it's so deceptively quick it's funny. In the M3, when I'm going fast, it feels like I'm going fast - like a race car... but the M5 is so comfortable at the same time it's asking for speeding tickets. I was in the fast lane, cruising comfortably, waiting for an opening to gun it, and these slow drivers were in front of me, 3 cars just 'cruising' in the fast lane... and that shyte pisses me off usually. So I start flashing the xenons like a madman to urge them out of the way - but then I happen to look down at the speedo, and they were already going 90! hahaha... I actually think the 3 of them were racing or something (not expecting something to come up behind them), but when they pulled to the right I floored it in 3rd, and left them like they were standing still! man, maybe that IS worth twice the M3!!??!!

any thoughts? be patient and wait for a 911 in 6 months? go for the M5 now? or just keep the M3 and continue modding?

don't get me wrong, I've been totally happy with the M3. It feels racier that the M5, it's better on gas (cheaper to run overall), sounds great as well - but it's not as roomy, and it looks outdated, especially the interior... and when will I realistically ever be able to push the M5 to it's limits?! but then again, if I were a practical thinker I'd be driving a Civic.

Larry

[deilenberger]

M5. I don't think you'd ever regret it. Great car, rare, will not be dropping rapidly in value and to me - about the most desireable car out there. A real stealth sedan.

[Chuck Finley]

M5. The end.

[rsagona1]

Dude, m5:buttrock Believe it or not it'll make us happy too, another M5'er on the board.

It's practical, fast, and safe It's great because when you have the kids in the car, you can drive like a grandma and keep your kids safe. But when your alone, and feel like you want to open it up, you can:devillook


Please get it. You won't regret it!!! I have a 4 door m3 and I love it. But when I'm older (I'm 18 now) and I have a real job I'm going for an M5.

[markesq]

My wife, who doesn't yet drive,

:lol How old is your wife, 14? haha

I am thinking about the same options. My M is FI and it is a tough decision. But, an M5 is more of a grown up car.

I am probably going to wait it out another year and look for a 911 Turbo. In your position I would be looking hard at the M5. Sweet ride.

[Def]

I say go for the M5. I love the E39 chassis, and the M5 is the best of that bunch by far with enough power to keep you awake when you plant the loud pedal to the floor.

[ParadigmGuy]

Go with the E39 M5 or the E46 M3 in 6 months. The 911 isn't a good option.

[LarryTwohig]

Thanks for the input guys. The 5 is the direction I'm leaning, but I almost feel like a traitor thinking about giving up the 36. She's been good to me. I think what I'll do is put her up for sale online, and see what the response is. The dealer only offered 13k for a trade-in, which agrees with kbb... but I think kbb is made to benefit dealers, not private sellers or buyers!

[LarryTwohig]

:lol How old is your wife, 14? haha

29, but epileptic. She has to wait 2 years after a seizure before driving again, and it's coming up on that anniversary.

I'm 29 as well, and an M5 does sort of fit in well with where I am in life I think!

[rsagona1]

Best wishes to your wife. Things always get better:)

Your right about one thing, it's hard to give up an E36. The design is unique and can't be replicated.


But I'm pretty sure your going to forget about your E36's when your dusting them at half throttle on the highway:D

[ae86_16v]

M5s are great, but one of the biggest thing I don't like about them is the weight. Great engine and all, but in the turns, it just "feels" heavy and it is.

I would say go w/ the 911 and keep your M3/4 as a daily driver ;) .

[markesq]

29, but epileptic. She has to wait 2 years after a seizure before driving again, and it's coming up on that anniversary.




Sorry man, wasn't trying to insult you.

[LarryTwohig]

Sorry man, wasn't trying to insult you.

no worries mate, was just clarifyng ;) don't want to be mistaken for a pedophile or anything!

Man, it was funny to write our ages, since I still fee like I'm 25. does that feeling go away?

I also can't believe I've been driving for 12 years! It seems the hosepower lust only increases with each passing one.

The M5 defintely feels heavy, but once you give it some gas, especially through long sweepers, it feels heavy more like a running back than a linebacker - if that makes sense. The power to weight ratio seems like more than enough to make up for the 3800 lbs. or so - and it feels quite 'small' at speed, and corners just about as flat as my e36. Even the 745i feels the same way - quite a contrast to say, an S500, which looks big, feels big, drives big.

Have yet to drive the 911, but I've heard that unless you go TT, the power and torque are disappointing after driving the M5. BUt I've also heard that nothing handles like the 911, save for the new Cayman, or an Elise.

[uansari1]

E39 M5... my dream car.

[turbo8765]

Keep the e36 M3. The M5 is just TOO heavy. You can fit your wife and kid in the M3 for sure. If other people are going along let them drive themselves or you can all ride in their car. Don't buy a bigger car for a fourth or fifth passenger you may have from time to time. Keep the e36 and add the 911 or or e46 M3 later.

I don't understand why the M5 would be referred to as more of a grown up car. I think this just means bigger.

[LarryTwohig]

Well, I've made my decision. (otherwise, I wouldn't be able to function this week at work)

I'm keeping the e36 M3, and waiting until next spring/early summer to re-think. I'm thinking 1999 996 black on black for next summer, while the wife can have have the sensible car, whatever it will be. If it's any consolation, at least I have a B&B Triflo in the mail, and a 3-spoke steering wheel I still have to put on! Now, how much was that AA turbo? ;)

thanks to all for the input! :buttrock

[/\/\ III Kid]

M5. The end. +1 i would do it if i could

[markesq]

I don't understand why the M5 would be referred to as more of a grown up car. I think this just means bigger.


4 doors. More money. Also, most people who drive them are in there mid 30's and up.

[rmani]

+1 i would do it if i could

+2. M5s are just amazing.

[ParadigmGuy]

4 doors. More money. Also, most people who drive them are in there mid 30's and up.
We are? :confused

[M3BimmerBilly]

yes, you are rich do it

e39 m5 will equal the new m3 anyway so you might as well ditch that e36 pile of shit and get a cheapy 4 dr with 400hp

[markesq]

We are? :confused

The keyword in the sentence is MOST. :rolleyes

[ae86_16v]

The M5 defintely feels heavy, but once you give it some gas, especially through long sweepers, it feels heavy more like a running back than a linebacker - if that makes sense. The power to weight ratio seems like more than enough to make up for the 3800 lbs. or so - and it feels quite 'small' at speed, and corners just about as flat as my e36. Even the 745i feels the same way - quite a contrast to say, an S500, which looks big, feels big, drives big.

Have yet to drive the 911, but I've heard that unless you go TT, the power and torque are disappointing after driving the M5. BUt I've also heard that nothing handles like the 911, save for the new Cayman, or an Elise.

Definitely, like I mention, the engine is GREAT! But no matter you could still feel 3800lbs in the corners. I completely understand what you are saying. And if you aren't tracking your car I don't think the additional weight will make that much of a difference. I just didn't like it when I drove one and it just felt heavy in the corners.

But on the freeway, I say it is better than a linerbacker. I would say it is more like a Freight Train :) .

You don't have to go TT, GT3 is just as good ;) . Sharp like a razor. The new Cayman because of its mid-engine design is fundamentally better than the 911. But also keep in mine that the 911 had 40 years to work out all the kinks. There is nothing like the extra weight on the rear wheels to help w/ traction on the exit for turns.

Don't get the Cayman, like the Boxster, you'll always have to come up with an excuse why you don't have a 911 :D .

[markesq]

...and E39 M5 not 97 E36 M3 ;)

[ex wrx]

GT3's are sexy, but man M5's are sleek. and i can also say it will be hard for me to part with my M, the way the fenders tuck into the body so well and it just looks soo damn sharp. (not a big fan of the round body styles of the newer generations) If i were you i would wait, and sit on the idea and think about it in the long run, the M5 would be great for now, but if you could hold out, you would probably be very happy in a 911. IMO i love all the above cars mentioned, but if you are gonna get a play car, and keep the E36 for a daily driver....i would have to say lotus elise :)

my 2 worthless pennys ;)

[LarryTwohig]

IMO i love all the above cars mentioned, but if you are gonna get a play car, and keep the E36 for a daily driver....i would have to say lotus elise :) ;)

I wish I were rich, but nope. When I do upgrade to another car it'll have to have a max tag of less than $35k, and the M3, unfortunately, would have to go... which is why I'm looking at the M5 and the 911. Both are great daily drivers and both are very fast. The cayman, GT3, TT, Elise were all mentioned for comparo purposes, but they're either too expensive or not good daily drivers. At least the kid could still fit in the back +2 of a 911!

Man, every time I think back to the M5, I start drooling!

[fivefreshfish]

Keep the M3 for your wife and get the M5 for yourself.

Do some more research into the M5. Go to M5board.com and lurk there for a bit.

[stopsign]

Just on the side,

LarryTwohig!-- I've met you in person before, I belive we met up at Equinox gym a few years back. I purchased a BM35SPL off you, from bladeforums!

I also have an E36 M3, and would LOVE an m5!

[LarryTwohig]

Keep the M3 for your wife and get the M5 for yourself.

Do some more research into the M5. Go to M5board.com and lurk there for a bit.

oh trust me, I've been lurking... more like drooling as it were! The wife will need an auto (sacrilege!)... I won;t lose the M3 unless it's for an e46 M3, and M5, or a 911... at least I can look forward to spring :devillook

[LarryTwohig]

Just on the side,

LarryTwohig!-- I've met you in person before, I belive we met up at Equinox gym a few years back. I purchased a BM35SPL off you, from bladeforums!

I also have an E36 M3, and would LOVE an m5!

Hey, yeah, I remember selling that to you in person, right down in the lobby! good to hear from you again... I must admit, I haven't kept up with the knife play, but I can still twirl a balisong like nobody's business! Have you been going to the NYC M3 meets?

-Larry

[jvit27]

you're crazy to get a 7 year old 911 instead.

M5 will still roast it.

[LarryTwohig]

you're crazy to get a 7 year old 911 instead.

M5 will still roast it.

I was just thinking the same thing myself actually... after all, I already have a 98 car... why go to just a 99, right?! Makes more sense to shoot for an 02 or 03 as the next logical progression. The e46 is looking quite juicy now, especially since they're selling for 30 flat! Does anybody have an article or specs comparing the e39 M5 to the e46 M3? I've heard that the e46 doesn't handle like the e36, but only when pushed to the limit, which I'd doubtful ever do. I've also heard that they don't sound as good as the M5 or the e36 M3. But many over at M3forums slap in an X-pipe and a race exhaust and that seems to clear things up.

[TIATO]

no worries mate, was just clarifyng ;) don't want to be mistaken for a pedophile or anything!

Man, it was funny to write our ages, since I still fee like I'm 25. does that feeling go away?

I also can't believe I've been driving for 12 years! It seems the hosepower lust only increases with each passing one.

The M5 defintely feels heavy, but once you give it some gas, especially through long sweepers, it feels heavy more like a running back than a linebacker - if that makes sense. The power to weight ratio seems like more than enough to make up for the 3800 lbs. or so - and it feels quite 'small' at speed, and corners just about as flat as my e36. Even the 745i feels the same way - quite a contrast to say, an S500, which looks big, feels big, drives big.

Have yet to drive the 911, but I've heard that unless you go TT, the power and torque are disappointing after driving the M5. BUt I've also heard that nothing handles like the 911, save for the new Cayman, or an Elise.


Im 36, and sometimes I still feel like Im 17, but thankfully much wiser. Its mental age and maturity that counts, not physical age. :D

What do you really want. I respect the fact that you are putting family before your desires, but i like to have some cake and eat it too - case in point. I got 4 cars: my M3/4, a 328is, e30 318is and a Honda Odyssy. M3 is my daily driver, 318 dedicated track car, 328is wifes daily driver when she isnt driving the van. The van, well thats the multipurpose, weekend, family mobile.

Problem is that I need two cars due to my track addiction :evil2

If did not have that track addiction, I would wait to get a Porsche. Not a 997 or 996, but a 993. Porsches hold their value much better and command a higher than average resale price. Porsches are not slow cars - Ive had the priveledge to be ballast in 2 race preped P-cars: 911 and a Porsche Cup 993. Best rides Ive ever had on track, well beside a Lotus Exige

M5 - very nice luxo cruiser, quick in straight line, but lumbers through corners. If driven by a driver with intermediate / advanced skills on the track, me with the same skill level can keep M5s at bay in my e30 318is. I know, having read about M5s on the M5 forum, problems with those v8s can be costly, not that Porsches are less expensive to fix.

e46 M3 - feels dull (road feel and feedback) and heavy and that raspy exhaust gets annoying. Knowing the history of the s54, coupled with the soon to expire drivetrain warranties of the ealy build e46 M3s, long term engine reliability and repair costs would deter me from ever buying one.

Elise - Fun, light car, but Id wait for an Exige. I had a ride in a left hand drive Exige at Watkins Glen season before last. Amazingly quick, amazing braking and high speed dynamics are well, amazing. That 200 hp car can outcorner and outbrake Ferrari Challenge cars, heck that street legal car (in the UK, not currently available in street legal form in the US) it outperforms most purpose built race cars.

Call me a retrogrouch, but the more modern and advanced new cars get, the less inclined I am to buy one. New designs insulate the driver from the road, take to much control away from the driver and worst of all make you a slave to dealer only service.

Whatever you choose Im sure you will be happy with it. Get what you REALLY WANT, now and hold on to it. In the future you may not have that chance as your family grows and other respsonsibilities take hold. Best of luck let us know what you decide on.

[wimpwgn]

If you are getting a P-car, I would suggest against the 996. IMO 993 is a far superior porsche, the last of the air-cooled.

[five3five]

The E39 M5 is a logical upgrade from the M3/4. Thats what I'm planning to do. Go for it and good luck.
Hamada

[donoman]

Can you just buy the M5 and keep the M3 to give to your wife when she gets driving again? Win-win situation :)

[GDawg]

I owned a 2001 Imola Red M5 (Imola and Black interior) with 48K miles on it when I got it. It was a CPO car that the dealer was frustrated with and let go for $39K October 2004.

My thoughts are that I traded a mint '99 M3 + $20K for this car. The M5 was beautiful and the interior was 9 out of 10. The engine was responsive as any 394 or so HP engine would be. Did it really have 394hp? I doubt it. Most dyno below 330rwhp. It would turn over the rear 275 pilots without much trouble and it hit 150mph on the straight at Brainered (BIR) at a driving school a few times so it was pretty fast.

In the winter the driver's side rear door wouldn't stay closed from some leak that would freeze up the catch mechanism, the oil pan is prone to leak (I had to get it fixed 2x in 6 months), the MAFs have a history of going bad as well as the vanos sensors. Overall I would rate the car a 7 out of 10 in terms of a real liveable 4 door sports sedan. The car simply can not be driven hard without little things breaking that were under engineered. You break sway bar attachments all the time. Yes there is the aftermarket, but the M3 doesn't suffer as much from the poor engineering (except maybe vanos problems on the E36 and climate ontrol gremlins) as the M5. The previous 2 owners must have changed the oil and filter per the idiot light as every time I changed the oil it still looked black afterwards.

Side note, the 996 version of the 911 is also probably a 7 out of 10 (other than its beautiful shape) because of its rear main seal problems that were never really fixed except in the turbo and GT3.

Grant

[3rd One]

I just switched to the M5 from a 97 M3...I would never look back. I actually kep both cars for about 3 months.......I might have driven the e36 once in that time. The cars are nowhere near comparable........and those who claim its too heavy..........too heavy for what? Its an f'ing monster everywhere.

http://images.snapfish.com/34564%3C%3A323232%7Ffp7%3Enu%3D3242%3E653%3E388%3E WSNRCG%3D323333%3A996745nu0mrj

[318daily]

http://images.snapfish.com/34564%3C%3A323232%7Ffp7%3Enu%3D3242%3E653%3E388%3E WSNRCG%3D323333%3A996745nu0mrj


Nice skate decks on the wall. That Gonz you have is probably worth some money, as are the other decks worthy enough to hang.


:buttrock

[GDawg]

4,024 lbs of car is too much period.

My E39 M5 ate its front pilots at the 1st driving event such they started chunking and they were only 2K miles old. The rears were fine. The car has no camber and while that isn't much different than the M3, the 4K lbs causes the beast to eat tires on a road course.

The 4K lbs did help in the snow as I loved the car in the winter up here with dedicated snow tires.

Overall, the car just isn't that well built which is one of the reasons I sold it.

Grant

[M3Romeo]

i have the same dilemma :) What you know about the baby seat in the back seat, hehe

[Luke]

M5 for sure
edit* Avus M5 for sure :)

[standsta00]

i would trade

[LboogieG12]

M5 why not? more space, more family, more HP & definitely more =D

[LarryTwohig]

For those who have driven or owned the e36 M3, the e46, and the e39 M5 - a question:

I test drove an e46 M3 (2002) today, and, like the 2002 e39 M5 I drove last weekend, the pedals and shifter felt very 'spongy' relative to my e36 M3. Controls in the e36 seem much more 'tight' to me, but I could be imagining things, or maybe I'm just not used to not having a SSK. I have a UUC evo 3 in mine, as well as a clutch stop. But still, that all aside, the clutch seems to catch very abruptly in the 02 cars, and the throttle seems overly sensitive.

Any thoughts?

[98///M3]

just go with the M5:)

-Luis

[Def]

For those who have driven or owned the e36 M3, the e46, and the e39 M5 - a question:

I test drove an e46 M3 (2002) today, and, like the 2002 e39 M5 I drove last weekend, the pedals and shifter felt very 'spongy' relative to my e36 M3. Controls in the e36 seem much more 'tight' to me, but I could be imagining things, or maybe I'm just not used to not having a SSK. I have a UUC evo 3 in mine, as well as a clutch stop. But still, that all aside, the clutch seems to catch very abruptly in the 02 cars, and the throttle seems overly sensitive.

Any thoughts?

I felt the same thing in the E46 M3 I drove for a bit. The clutch felt like that of a new Honda Civic, with a very vague engagement point(not due to the CDV), and the throttle was ridiculously hard to get the hang of. I felt like a 16 yr old girl driving a manual for the first time since I couldn't get smooth upshifts for the life of me. I think the throttle by wire system pulses the IACV between shifts to keep the revs up a hair, so that you can upshift the car without easing back on the throttle whatsoever. I guess that'd make it easier for a new/rusty manual driver to get the hang of the car, but after driving nothing but manuals my whole driving career I just couldn't get the hang of the car.

I thought the steering feel was superior on my E36 as well.

[LarryTwohig]

I felt the same thing in the E46 M3 I drove for a bit. The clutch felt like that of a new Honda Civic, with a very vague engagement point(not due to the CDV), and the throttle was ridiculously hard to get the hang of. I felt like a 16 yr old girl driving a manual for the first time since I couldn't get smooth upshifts for the life of me. I think the throttle by wire system pulses the IACV between shifts to keep the revs up a hair, so that you can upshift the car without easing back on the throttle whatsoever. I guess that'd make it easier for a new/rusty manual driver to get the hang of the car, but after driving nothing but manuals my whole driving career I just couldn't get the hang of the car.

I thought the steering feel was superior on my E36 as well.

agreed. I'm sticking with the e36!!:redspot

[rommelrules]

An overly sensitive (or flat) accelerator could be due to the "sport" mode being engaged or not. Unless you're really putting the pedal down (in which case there's no difference at all), at light or part throttle the difference is dramatic. Some people actually hate the sport mode, and never use it.
I can't do without it...

And, yes, a stock E46 M3 shifter is going to feel spongier than any E36 M3 shifter with a SSK. But put a stock shifter in the E36-- oh, how quickly we forget... Actually, stock for stock, BMW did a great job with the E46 M3 shifter. The throws are way shorter and much tighter than in the E36 M3.

[Cody]

from having driven all of them for a lengthy period of time, more than 6 hours over a day of 'testing' here were my impressions.

my E36: Love it, its just right for me in terms of power, not too much, not too little, corners great, dont get into too much trouble with it. then again, it does leave a little to be desired some times when a camaro passes me on a on-ramp...

E46, better everything than the E36 but the feel and driving position, which is the only reason i'd rather not own one, also, the throttle was a BITCH to get the hang of, i couldn't down-shift to save my live, the pedal felt all mushy. It did corned excellent with the acs (bilstein) suspension, stopped just as fast as it got going, and pretty much left me breathless during the 1-2 shift.

E39 M5, after quite a time of driving it on both freeways and twisties, i must say it is more of a highway car than anything. around the corners, i really couldnt feel the road AT ALL, i was just not confident at all about the car, it would lean slightly, but you just couldnt really feel when the car was going to to break loose, and if you touched the throttle, it went directly into a power slide.
The throttle/clutch felt the same for the most part as the E46, couldnt really down-shift easy with the getrag 6 speed box, it was hard to find second, but im sure its just something you need to get used to.
i could honestly say it is the most confortable of all the cars, you dont feel a thing, going 100mph feels like you are going 40 which can be both a good and bad thing.
I would like to see what this car is like with a suspension tweak, and a exhaust, becuase the car is honestly too quite for a M.

993 & 993S, all i can say is i'm seriously thinking about getting one myself if it wasnt for the fact that i wouldnt have enough income to pay for the service.
it cornered flawless, PERFECTLY FLAT around everything, felt extremely solid and nimble, could feel everything through the wheel, acceleration is effortless.
stopping ?, well thats what porsches are known for, and this car is no exception.
the car is damn quick, but not 'fast', and that is the only place the 993 lacks, is its not as quick as the M5 of E46 with a good driver, but it more than makes up for it with its corning ability.
the best thing about the 993 is the sound, NOTHING can beat the sound of a air cooled 911, that is almost reason enough to own it over the others.

What i personally would do: wait and get the 993, you are almost 30 after all, its time for the mid-life crisis porsche. :)
and later get the wife a E39 540i sport wagon.
But honestly, you can not go wrong with any of the choices, they are all cars id love to own and drive in their own right;
the e46 as a "upgrade" to the the E36, the M5 as a the 'family' sedan sleeper. and the 993.. as well, a real drivers car that will never disappoint.

[LarryTwohig]

Thanks for all the feedback, it's really appreciated! 30 is quickly approaching and I agree that it's a great excuse for something sporty!:evil2