6 Speed tranny in E36 M3?

[mangolia]

Has anyone heard anything about installing a six speed in a 97 M3? If so, where would I inquire about one and how much (roughly) would it cost? Thanks

[hc1001]

do a search... theres a very recent threads that has come up. including a 6 speed supplier and what parts u need to swap to make the 6 speed work.

[shim]

you can either do euro 6 speed swap ($$$), the Z4 6 speed swap ($$$ + weak), or the S54 6 speed from an e46 m3, etc ($$$).....

[SQ Bimmer]

There is no point to doing the 6 speed swap unless you have a RIDICULOUS amount of horsepower, or if you drop a 3.91 or something in the rear. The gas mileage increase will not pay for the transmission for a LONG time, so please, no gas mileage statements.

[jvit27]

A 3.46 runs 4000rpm @ 80mph and gets annoying... not to mention the 6spd is a nicer shifting transmission to begin with.

There are two points to have one that arent about gas mileage.

[SQ Bimmer]

A 3.46 runs 4000rpm @ 80mph and gets annoying... not to mention the 6spd is a nicer shifting transmission to begin with.

There are two points to have one that arent about gas mileage.
Lower engine noise, good point. A 6 speed is an excellent upgrade to a 3.46, but I would probably want a 3.91 if I had a 6 speed, unless I had a LOT of horsepower.

[redrocket328]

Check out zionsville, they have a complete tranny swap kit for a 6 speed.
http://www.zionsvilleautosport.com/store/shop.mv?

[jvit27]

Anything over 3.73 is pointless (and slower overall) if you can't rev past 7400*

*excludes automatics and true race motors/cars

[Rob Levinson]

We did this a few months ago with an E46 M3 transmission... full details, part numbers, everything you need:

http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/98M3/upgrades/E46M3_6SPD/index.htm

It was coupled with a 3.64, effectively the same combination that the E46 M3 uses. Acceleration increase is quite noticeable while the 6th gear still gives a higher overdrive (lower highway speed rpm) than the original 5-speed/3.23 combo.

One of the comments above was right - you don't do this for gas mileage. You do it because it's a hell of a lot of fun, and that's worth every penny!

[EEEEeeee36]

We did this a few months ago with an E46 M3 transmission... full details, part numbers, everything you need:

http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/98M3/upgrades/E46M3_6SPD/index.htm

It was coupled with a 3.64, effectively the same combination that the E46 M3 uses. Acceleration increase is quite noticeable while the 6th gear still gives a higher overdrive (lower highway speed rpm) than the original 5-speed/3.23 combo.

One of the comments above was right - you don't do this for gas mileage. You do it because it's a hell of a lot of fun, and that's worth every penny!
:alright I know what my spring project is going to be now!!! Hello E46 M3 6sp! :D

Thank you Rob at UUC for pointing that out! :thumbup:

[jvit27]

Rob, FYI...assuming the E36 has stock 245/40-17 in the back, a 3.46 rear end is equivalent to the E46 M3 with 3.62/3.64 (255/40-18)

Also, if anyone wants a reference point.. a 3.73 in 6th gear pulls roughly the same rpm's as a 3.23 does in 5th gear

[frayed]

Rob, I have an S50B32 going into my new car. I have a 3.46 lying around that I picked up from your colleague (long ago). Was thinking about that, but will probably go with a 3.64 if I do the tranny swap as well. Thoughts?

[Rob Levinson]

Rob, FYI...assuming the E36 has stock 245/40-17 in the back, a 3.46 rear end is equivalent to the E46 M3 with 3.62/3.64 (255/40-18)

Also, if anyone wants a reference point.. a 3.73 in 6th gear pulls roughly the same rpm's as a 3.23 does in 5th gear

They all come out very close:

E46 M3 with 255/40-18 rear tire - 2250rpm in 6th gear:
3.64 (early production) = 57mph
3.62 (late production) = 58mph

E36 M3 with 245/40-17 rear tire - 2250rpm in 6th gear:
3.64 = 55mph
3.73 = 54mph

Many E36 M3s use 255/40-17 on the rear which changes it slightly, very close to the E46 M3 with 255/40-18:
3.64 = 56mph
3.73 = 55mph

Compared to the same E36 w/255 setup with the '96+ 3.23, 2250rpm in 5th = 52mph

So no matter what, either with the 3.64 or 3.73, you still have a taller top gear.

A 3.91 with the 6-speed yields a 2250rpm in 6th of 52mph... which negates the lower-rpm cruising benefit.

I'd almost say that between these ratios, it's splitting hairs. The 3.46 doesn't seem like enough difference from the 3.23, and the 3.64 is sufficient to smoke the tires through 1st and now with the winter temps making the tires less sticky, most of the way through 2nd - on a car that so far only has a prototype UUC intake and UUC RSC36 exhaust, no other power mods.

- Rob

[Rob Levinson]

Rob, I have an S50B32 going into my new car. I have a 3.46 lying around that I picked up from your colleague (long ago). Was thinking about that, but will probably go with a 3.64 if I do the tranny swap as well. Thoughts?

The 3.46 would work fine, especially with the increased power levels... but if you could work out a swap with someone for a 3.64, I don't think you would be making a mistake. Who knows - to the right 5-speed owner, the 3.46 could be worth more $ than the 3.64 and you might come out ahead!

You could call Brett at KMS (440-564-7574) and ask him about gearset values.

- Rob

[frayed]

Huh, have to do some calling around. Cheers.

[jvit27]

368s.com has a good RPM table to use, just make sure to select the S52 Roadster on the left.

I think you're right Rob, it is splitting hairs. It comes down to 3.46 is a good choice if you prioritize cruising on the highway, 3.64 is better if you prioritize acceleration. Both are improvements over stock when coupled with a 6spd. Personally i'm still unsure of which i'll be choosing..

[Rob Levinson]

Personally i'm still unsure of which i'll be choosing..

Next time you're in NJ, you're more than welcome to drive mine and see what you think.

- Rob

[GUINNESS]

So it sounds like if someone wants to do this swap, go with the E46 M3 tranny. I was actually wondering if it would work with the 330 ZHP 6-speed, but it's sounding like the M3 is the way to go. Also, I take it if you do a 6sp, plan on changing the rear diff as well?

Thanks all.

[EEEEeeee36]

So it sounds like if someone wants to do this swap, go with the E46 M3 tranny. I was actually wondering if it would work with the 330 ZHP 6-speed, but it's sounding like the M3 is the way to go. Also, I take it if you do a 6sp, plan on changing the rear diff as well?

Thanks all.
That's a good question: what about the 330 6sp? Wouldn't it be cheaper and easier to find? Are the gear ratios different in the 330 vs the M3?

[Rob Levinson]

That's a good question: what about the 330 6sp? Wouldn't it be cheaper and easier to find? Are the gear ratios different in the 330 vs the M3?

We covered a lot of this in several other threads recently and I posted the exact ratios... the are virtually the exact same, differences vary by about .01 per gear. No different in actual use.

As for which one to get, take all of these factors into consideration when making your own decision:

* If purchasing brand-new, a 330 gearbox is less expensive than an E46 M3 gearbox. Purchasing new gives you some kind of warranty.

* If purchasing used, the E46 M3 gearbox may be easier to find - they have been on the road longer, and consequently more have been wrecked.

* The 330 gearbox is not rated for as much power as the E46 M3. Should be fine for a NA car, but by the same token, long-term durability is not as well-known as the S6S420G gearbox mechanicals as found in the E46 M3, E36 M3 Evolution, and E39 M5/540i.

* You need a custom driveshaft no matter what - which you'll get from Zionsville Autosport (www.zionsvilleautosport.com).

* As far as long-term use, both transmissions present the same problem in that BMW does not offer major repair parts - just complete replacement units.

- Rob

[mitch48]

I just did this swap on Thanksgiving day, got the tranny for the doc in Chicago who posted on the thread about the six speed knob I put up. I can give you contact info if you like, he's importing Euro six speeds and six bolt flange driveshafts at a good price. I had a four bolt diff flange, so he found me an M3 auto DS that worked the same as the six speed shaft. I've not changed my diff yet, and am not sure if I will as I wanted the overdirve for some long distance cruising and at 80 mph the 3500 rpm got annoying. Not it turns less than 3000 at that speed. It was well worth the effort for me.

[JamesM3M5]

I've got the S50B32 with stock 5-speed, 245/40/17, and I'll be putting the 3.46 in when Brett gets it to me. 80MPH in 5th is 3764RPM, which is perfectly fine for highway use. With the 3.15 (1995 M3) it turns 3427.

The 6-speed conversions just cost too much for me to even care about them at this time. It would be better if they were somewhat of a close ratio, but it gives you a really short 1st gear if you run with a 3.64 or 3.73 and marginally better revs for highway use. 2nd gear with either of those short diffs ends at 62 or 60MPH, and 80MPH in 6th gear runs 3287 or 3368RPM, respectively. With a 3.46 and the E36 tire size (approx 24.75" dia), a 6-speed would cruise 80MPH at 3124RPM, which is a little bit low for the torque curve of the Euro motors.

[EEEEeeee36]

I've got the S50B32 with stock 5-speed, 245/40/17, and I'll be putting the 3.46 in when Brett gets it to me. 80MPH in 5th is 3764RPM, which is perfectly fine for highway use. With the 3.15 (1995 M3) it turns 3427.

The 6-speed conversions just cost too much for me to even care about them at this time. It would be better if they were somewhat of a close ratio, but it gives you a really short 1st gear if you run with a 3.64 or 3.73 and marginally better revs for highway use. 2nd gear with either of those short diffs ends at 62 or 60MPH, and 80MPH in 6th gear runs 3287 or 3368RPM, respectively. With a 3.46 and the E36 tire size (approx 24.75" dia), a 6-speed would cruise 80MPH at 3124RPM, which is a little bit low for the torque curve of the Euro motors.
Is it possible to change the gears for 1st and/or 2nd in this box? This would be one of the first steps in building a set-up that will eventually put down 700-900rwhp - I don't want to blow through gears THAT fast! Maybe a lower final gear would help, but then again I would like to have the stronger torque differential at higher speeds. :dunno

[SQ Bimmer]

Is it possible to change the gears for 1st and/or 2nd in this box? This would be one of the first steps in building a set-up that will eventually put down 700-900rwhp - I don't want to blow through gears THAT fast! Maybe a lower final gear would help, but then again I would like to have the stronger torque differential at higher speeds. :dunno
7-900 hp huh..... Start in second? :stickoutt

[SG_M3]

Huh, have to do some calling around. Cheers.

jeff, for a pure track car i'd go shorter. 3.73 at the least maybe a 4.10. Watts were running a 4.45 with their stock euro 3.2.

[SQ Bimmer]

jeff, for a pure track car i'd go shorter. 3.73 at the least maybe a 4.10. Watts were running a 4.45 with their stock euro 3.2.
See, I'm not the only one that thinks a 3.91 would be just about right. :stickoutt

[EEEEeeee36]

jeff, for a pure track car i'd go shorter. 3.73 at the least maybe a 4.10. Watts were running a 4.45 with their stock euro 3.2.
What kind of top speeds were they needing to hit? Some of the C5 and C6 'Vettes with toys hit 150-165 on the straits at Pacific Raceways here (one guy's personal plate is "540 WHP"). I guess that would just about top out a 4.45...:dunno

[EEEEeeee36]

7-900 hp huh..... Start in second? :stickoutt
Yeah! LOL. That's why I was going to go with a final drive in the 3.15 to 3.46 range, but I gues I have to try a few before I am happy. Even with peak torque of 700+ from 1000-2000rpms you'll only be in the 300+ torque range... it won't peal the tires THAT quick, so maybe changing the 1st gear won't be that necessary. JamesM3M5 just mentioned that 1st becomes a really short gear when you go to a shorter final drive.

[Rob Levinson]

Is it possible to change the gears for 1st and/or 2nd in this box?

Not that I am aware of. As stated earler, repair/rebuild parts are not even offered.


I don't want to blow through gears THAT fast! Maybe a lower final gear would help, but then again I would like to have the stronger torque differential at higher speeds. :dunno

You mean a taller final gear, right? Like a 2.73 or similar.

In the E36, the standard "medium" diff is actually very robust. But if you really need a stronger final drive, the E36 M3 Evolution used a BMW "large" diff. You need the entire subframe, diff housing, halfshafts, etc., but that's the same gearset size as used in the large cars and particularly the E39 M5, and regularly withstands 700-900hp and gobs of torque in the supercharged M5s.

- Rob

[s1ick]

I also want to do a 6 speed swap. Been saving up but the money just disappears :dunno Think it might have something to do with me buying seats, m50 manifold, underpanel and so on..

[EEEEeeee36]

You mean a taller final gear, right? Like a 2.73 or similar.

Yeah I meant a 'smaller' number gear, or like you said a taller gear.



In the E36, the standard "medium" diff is actually very robust. But if you really need a stronger final drive, the E36 M3 Evolution used a BMW "large" diff. You need the entire subframe, diff housing, halfshafts, etc., but that's the same gearset size as used in the large cars and particularly the E39 M5, and regularly withstands 700-900hp and gobs of torque in the supercharged M5s.

- Rob
There are several E36s out there running 600+ whp and I think they only thing they've done is had a reinforced driveline built and used a stronger LSD, but I'll have to research that. If I wanted to 'beef up' the final drive with the BMW Large Diff how much of the subframe would I have to replace? Do many E36ers do this drastic change?

[MIMI1]

what about doing a euro tranny and engine swap what kind of parts would be needed ?

[NC98///M3]

Is it possible to change the gears for 1st and/or 2nd in this box? This would be one of the first steps in building a set-up that will eventually put down 700-900rwhp - I don't want to blow through gears THAT fast! Maybe a lower final gear would help, but then again I would like to have the stronger torque differential at higher speeds. :dunno

:lol

[Lohe]

bump for a great thread... it took me for ever to find all this info. I am planing on doing the 6 speed swap.. and coulding find the link on everything you need from UUC's site till I find this thread. Thanks Rob for puting all that info together.

[CVGTURBO86]

thanks for bumping this up, it will probably help alot of people out...it has alreasy helped me a little.

[MoeMuny]

I went with the euro 6 speed and I think it is great I still have the stock 3.23 I got it for freeway driving and its under 3000 rpm at 80

The euro swap was fairly easy, all you need is the driveshaft, 6 bolt flange and a shifter it was very straight forward.... PM me if you have questions

[BMWManiac]

I should be getting mine sometime this week, I can't wait!

[Lohe]

Priced a brand new E46 M3 trans today well DAMN they are not free thats for sure.

[328iJunkie]

2 6spds on the bay for less than 2K :eyecrazy !! :D

[Lohe]

2 6spds on the bay for less than 2K :eyecrazy !! :D

hmmm links? I could not find them...

[328iJunkie]

E39: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-E39-6-SPEED-MANUAL-TRANSMISSION-83K_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33733QQihZ019QQitem Z290088021074QQrdZ1
330:http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-6-Speed-Manual-Transmission-E46-330-330i-330ci_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33733QQihZ011QQit emZ320085786628QQrdZ1

[Lohe]

hmm not what I am looking for the first one has a diffrent bolt pattern than the I6 motors.

The second is just a standard I6 speed the E46 M3 has better internals.. the syncros and other stuff is strong on the M version...

[328iJunkie]

i thought the E39 tranny bolted to our motors?

[Lohe]

i thought the E39 tranny bolted to our motors?

E39's came with 2 motors a I6 or a V8 (540)

only the V8's came with the 6 speed so it wont bolt up.

[328iJunkie]

I know the 540s/M5s were the only 6speeds but i thought the trannys had the same bolt pattern as the I6s?

[Lohe]

I know the 540s/M5s were the only 6speeds but i thought the trannys had the same bolt pattern as the I6s?

Nope not even close.

[Rob Levinson]

Priced a brand new E46 M3 trans today well DAMN they are not free thats for sure.

Not really much different in price than a new E36 M3 5-speed. New parts cost new price.

- Rob

[MoeMuny]

keep in mind that if you get the e46 trans you will need a new flywheel and clutch, the e36 ones will not work from what I understand

[RSF5]

I say if you got the cash go for it.