Am I really all alone?

[Jazzbass]

I participate on a few sites and it seems to me that I am alone in this world with my attitude towards my cars.

I don't give a rat's arse how fast my cars go, or how quick they are off the mark. Racing others holds no interest or pleasure for me. To me, the pleasure I get from my BMWs is in the driving, the feel, the look, the sound, the engineering, the comfort - the whole package.

I prefer automatic over manual (I made the mistake 10 years ago of buying a manual car, but traded it in within 6 months 'cos I didn't like driving it) gearboxes and simply can't understand the common view that driving an automatic is not real driving - that just suggests an assumed semi-elitism based on a biased and flawed viewpoint to me. I've done my time with manual boxes and certainly preferred them when I was young, but I outgrew them.

I prefer to own completely stock (I can appreciate other's modified cars, but wouldn't want one for myself) cars and take pride in keeping my car in excellent nick. The factory stereo suits me just fine. The stock 16" factory wheels are all I need or desire. I love the woodgrain and leather interior.

I only ever use the local BMW dealer for any work on my car and fully trust them.

Am I REALLY alone here???? :dunno

[bellavus]

not at all. My dad loves automatic cars, and keeps them all stock. He's owned 2 E55's, and mostly Mercedes, so automatic is what you get. It's impracticle to own a car with a manual transmission in NYC.

[vrsixer]

Am I REALLY alone here???? :dunno
Possibly... :devillook

[Juicy Double]

I dunno. My mom likes automatics and stock cars. She also calls me for input regarding factory parts, so the dealer doesn't try and pull something. So you could be like my mom.
And off the line acceleration, speed are part of the whole package, because the engine is the culprit.

[Juicy Double]

not at all. My dad loves automatic cars, and keeps them all stock. He's owned 2 E55's, and mostly Mercedes, so automatic is what you get. It's impracticle to own a car with a manual transmission in NYC.
He obviously likes speed though

[bellavus]

He obviously likes speed though
he likes speed, but it's also the control that comes with the speed. His 2000 E55 wasn't incredibly fast, but had amazing control and a great suspension. He traded in the second one (2004) because it was too fast and not enough control.

[catalyst.]

Most women think the same way you do, thats not an insult, im just making that observation.

The thing i hate is when people with your attitude ask WHY? would you throw so much money into a car, or modify it so heavily..

The answer is simple, its our hobby, im sure you have one, whether it be boats, landscape, making your house better, whatever, the same feelings that you have about your hobbies apply to what we feel about our cars.

My dad actually shares the same veiwpoint as you, he drives an automatic e34, he loves it and thinks it handles great, but he could care less about upgrading it, he does keep it up, and takes care of it, but hes just not interested in it as a hobby or something to throw money into. I remember he asked me one day why the hell i am throwing so much money into a CAR, and i got pretty pissed at him, all i said is, why do you throw so much money into your BOAT? And then he understood.

Obviously if your on a car enthusiast site, your not going to find to many people that share your veiw.

[Juicy Double]

Women have shoes. There's no way they can critisize the car/modifying passion. Except when you have more cars than your wife has shoes.

[Luftwaffe1O1]

I participate on a few sites and it seems to me that I am alone in this world with my attitude towards my cars.

I don't give a rat's arse how fast my cars go, or how quick they are off the mark. Racing others holds no interest or pleasure for me. To me, the pleasure I get from my BMWs is in the driving, the feel, the look, the sound, the engineering, the comfort - the whole package.

I prefer automatic over manual (I made the mistake 10 years ago of buying a manual car, but traded it in within 6 months 'cos I didn't like driving it) gearboxes and simply can't understand the common view that driving an automatic is not real driving - that just suggests an assumed semi-elitism based on a biased and flawed viewpoint to me. I've done my time with manual boxes and certainly preferred them when I was young, but I outgrew them.

I prefer to own completely stock (I can appreciate other's modified cars, but wouldn't want one for myself) cars and take pride in keeping my car in excellent nick. The factory stereo suits me just fine. The stock 16" factory wheels are all I need or desire. I love the woodgrain and leather interior.

I only ever use the local BMW dealer for any work on my car and fully trust them.

Am I REALLY alone here???? :dunno


I then ask you how much control do you have of keeping your car in the appropriate power range with an automatic.

[Mitch]

I don't care that my car is slow. Check my sig. I openly admit its an auto. Sure, its not as fast as a lot of my friends cars, but I absolutley love how it drives.

[bellavus]

Women have shoes. There's no way they can critisize the car/modifying passion. Except when you have more cars than your wife has shoes.
:rofl

A car is a depreciating asset. If you were to put more $ into a house that actually appreciates in value, and you have a chance to get your money back.

I'm just replacing things on my car as they break and upgrade them.

Besides, I only have 20 pairs of shoes :D

[Jazzbass]

catalyst - I'm not asking why - I've been there and done that myself - I guess I've just changed my focus with age - it happens.

[Jazzbass]

I then ask you how much control do you have of keeping your car in the appropriate power range with an automatic.

Not trying to be difficult, but I really just don't understand the question, mate.

[telijah]

It all depends on why you like to drive cars. I have a feeling for both. For my BMW, I got it because of the confort factor. I think it is a well built car, made for just cruising around. If I buy another BMW, and my racer side is in control, then I'd probably go for a 3 series for modding and such as it is a much nicer candadite for it. But no, you are not alone. My e32 will probably remain perfectly stock, except for the radio since it is not a CD player :(

[Vanos01]

I don't care that my car is slow. Check my sig. I openly admit its an auto. Sure, its not as fast as a lot of my friends cars, but I absolutley love how it drives.

And hey, at the end of the day, that's REALLY what matters. That YOU like it. :)

[metale]

I prefer manual trannys, but I love my car as stock (just a x-brace) and with stock 15's.

[catalyst.]

Not trying to be difficult, but I really just don't understand the question, mate.

In a manual car the rev's are rarely below 2000 RPM's, ive noticed in my dads e34, that has the same engine as my car, that the revs are constantly below 2000 RPM's while driving around town.

This makes for a very slow car, that sucks up gas, as you have to mash the pedal to get any torque, because the automatic transmission keeps the revs in very awkward places.

If you know how to drive a stick shift (im not saying you dont) they are not only more fun (imo), but make for an all around generally faster car, as it is so easy to rev match and downshift for more power, also you can keep the rev's where YOU want them, not where the GMC engineered transmission in the car wants them - having control over this leaves the RPM's in a place where horsepower and torque can be easily made.

[Kevlar]

I enjoy driving both manual and automatic... both have their advantages and disadvantages.

[chamber36]

I participate on a few sites and it seems to me that I am alone in this world with my attitude towards my cars.

I don't give a rat's arse how fast my cars go, or how quick they are off the mark. Racing others holds no interest or pleasure for me. To me, the pleasure I get from my BMWs is in the driving, the feel, the look, the sound, the engineering, the comfort - the whole package.

I prefer automatic over manual (I made the mistake 10 years ago of buying a manual car, but traded it in within 6 months 'cos I didn't like driving it) gearboxes and simply can't understand the common view that driving an automatic is not real driving - that just suggests an assumed semi-elitism based on a biased and flawed viewpoint to me. I've done my time with manual boxes and certainly preferred them when I was young, but I outgrew them.

I prefer to own completely stock (I can appreciate other's modified cars, but wouldn't want one for myself) cars and take pride in keeping my car in excellent nick. The factory stereo suits me just fine. The stock 16" factory wheels are all I need or desire. I love the woodgrain and leather interior.

I only ever use the local BMW dealer for any work on my car and fully trust them.

Am I REALLY alone here???? :dunno


you sir, need a 2006 760Li. and like 150k hahaha. as for owning completely stock... im sure people here do... for example restoring and detailing, plenty of people enjoy that too...

[Jazzbass]

you sir, need a 2006 760i.

Hell YES!!! :D

BUT - NZ price is $315,900 + on road costs :help

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3379611a14736,00.html

[chamber36]

HOLY GOD....then maybe a 5 series.... hahahah move here man that ride is so worth it hahahaha... come to think of it though, i heard new zealand was amazing... i plan on going sometime in my life... hows the gas prices?

[MillerTime1nine]

I only liked autos back in the day when i was a stoner, just wanted 2 pedals STOP and GO lol but i guess someday I will go stick.

[Jazzbass]

Petrol currently around $NZ6 per USgal...

[IchLiebeBMW]

Well your not alone in the world of BMW ownership, but in the forum crowd you are the minority.

[Shak. G]

You should be driving miss daisy. Sorry steering miss daisy.

[abbot555]

Most women think the same way you do, thats not an insult, im just making that observation.

The thing i hate is when people with your attitude ask WHY? would you throw so much money into a car, or modify it so heavily..

The answer is simple, its our hobby, im sure you have one, whether it be boats, landscape, making your house better, whatever, the same feelings that you have about your hobbies apply to what we feel about our cars.

My dad actually shares the same veiwpoint as you, he drives an automatic e34, he loves it and thinks it handles great, but he could care less about upgrading it, he does keep it up, and takes care of it, but hes just not interested in it as a hobby or something to throw money into. I remember he asked me one day why the hell i am throwing so much money into a CAR, and i got pretty pissed at him, all i said is, why do you throw so much money into your BOAT? And then he understood.

Obviously if your on a car enthusiast site, your not going to find to many people that share your veiw.

I have to agree, its a hobby. People are just into different things.

:mechstuck

[bellavus]

the main reason why I bought my Bmw was because it was a safe car. I've had too many friends die in accidents where they should have lived if they were driving a safer car.

[MIMI1]

Auto OWNS NYC

Stick gets OWNED by NYC

[530ica]

Agree with the thread starter not interested in speed and tickets. Will keep it original No Mods always clean and polished.

[SilverBeam]

sounds like you are just getting old ;) jk

[///M LIFE©]

Its all about what your preference is. I really dont like racing, although spirited drives are fun. How old are you?

[Freestyler2K]

In my younger days, things couldn't get fast and furious enough. (i'm 36 now for the record) Back then i considered auto trannys as an unfortunate but neccesary aid for driving-impaired people. And i would never even consider having a car with a slushbox.

Back then my car was not just a car. It was the symbol of my newfound freedom and the means to great pleasure and joy. I loved to drive for the driving experience alone. And it was very important to have the greatest amount of 'feel' with the car -of which much was achieved through the manual gearbox.

Now i find myself spending most of my driving time in stop and go traffic on my way to work and back again. And i have more need for comfort and relaxation than to 'feel' the car. So i specifically chose a car with auto tranny. That beeing a E39, i believe makes the best of both worlds for my needs.

I still have the urge to get the occasional adrenaline-fix, going sideways through the twisties. But for that purpose i have a 275hp turbo Miata parked next to the E39 in the garage. :)

Oh man.. I just realized how old i have become, form reading my own post. :(

[greenlanturn]

i'm 22 and don't mind my auto tranny at all. i also dont mod so that i can race or anything i mod pretty much for looks and i love the look and feel of my bmw too. the 190 hp is easily enough for my use.

only taking ur car to the dealer for service must be expensive though, but its ur call. i think most ppl on here will say that going to a local mechanic who works on bmws would save you some $ and doing your own maintenance & minor repairs DIY when possible would just make you appreciate the intricacies of your bmw that much more. but who knows maybe $ is not a huge concern for you taking it to the dealership assures that everything will be done right by professionals :dunno

[I3uller]

My grandma drives an automatic...its all good.

[unesential]

There is nothing at all wrong with a very well kept original. In many years from now a nice original will always fetch more than one that has been modded. True classics are always original. It is a hobby as stated to go about tweaking your car. As for the crap about auto or stick I can say that I have driven both and had some auto that kick the S--- out of some manuals. If you Know how to drive an auto they can be very fast. The newer elctronic shifting is really unbeatable that is why it is used in F1.

[greenmanstunnel]

In my opinion, saying "stick shift is better than auto" or vice-versa is just short-sighted. It all depends where you're driving and what type of driving you're doing. If you're on twisty roads, or in the mountains or whatever, and traffic is not an issue, then the stick shift is a blast. If you're doing the 9-5 grind and driving to and from work in lots of stop and go traffic, then the stick shift is just torture, and automatic is the way to go. You just have to decide where most of your driving is occuring.

As for modifications, my Golf and my BMW ride and drive so nice as it is, I'm almost afraid to do suspension modifications. I don't want to lose the "feel." Maybe if I could test-drive a car with some mods... I just don't want to end up with some stiff, bumpy ride.

[fisherbln]

I only ever use the local BMW dealer for any work on my car and fully trust them.

Am I REALLY alone here???? :dunno
I'm surprised I'm the only one that caught that statement. I think you may be the only one that FULLY trusts their dealer. Although I'm sure there are a few honest ones out there...:rolleyes

[Treepusher]

I suspect the vast majority of BMW owners feel the way you do. They simply love their cars and drive them for the pure enjoyment they derive from doing so. The silent majority, if you will, who don't spend time 1)modding 2) racing or 3) posting to these forums. I keep my own E46 (yeah, stock and auto) the best-detailed car around here, not because I want anyone else to be envious, but because that's simply the way I want it. Still, that doesn't mean I don't enjoy reading the posts from others who think differently on this forum. Good luck!

[///MZG]

I don't really share any of your viewpoints, but I currently use my car almost soley as a track/fun car. For that a manual is more desireable and modifying the suspension and wheels/tires is appropriate. As far as using the car as a daily driver, then yes, an auto with no mods would not be a bad choice.

[beatniks325]

I think you are alone here if you think an automatic is just as fun as a 5-speed and that the dealer can be completely trusted and that you should take your car there for everything.

that's the question right?

[cleoent]

you are all alone.

[Jazzbass]

Ah well, there are a few others it seems. Glad to be in your distinguished company.

As I said - I have no problem with people modding - all power to them. I used to when I was younger also. I'm a musician, I certainly mod my guitars to suit my needs. To each their own.

I go to the dealer not because I don't trust any local mechanics, but really all I ever need is oil change/service and warrant of fitness - (in NZ all cars must be tested for road safety every 6 months, or every 12 months for 3 years from new. If you fail a wof, you are not allowed on the road). Anything minor goes wrong - I fix it myself. Also going to the dealer means I keep a great record of service - useful when I sell the car - which I bought with a FSH from the dealer.

Haven't had any major go wrong with any car I've owned since my first one, 40 years ago. (that was a '60 Vauxhall PA - for those who know about Brit cars, you wouldn't be surprised).

[Shoe Coupe]

I participate on a few sites and it seems to me that I am alone in this world with my attitude towards my cars.

I don't give a rat's arse how fast my cars go, or how quick they are off the mark. Racing others holds no interest or pleasure for me. To me, the pleasure I get from my BMWs is in the driving, the feel, the look, the sound, the engineering, the comfort - the whole package.

I prefer automatic over manual (I made the mistake 10 years ago of buying a manual car, but traded it in within 6 months 'cos I didn't like driving it) gearboxes and simply can't understand the common view that driving an automatic is not real driving - that just suggests an assumed semi-elitism based on a biased and flawed viewpoint to me. I've done my time with manual boxes and certainly preferred them when I was young, but I outgrew them.

I prefer to own completely stock (I can appreciate other's modified cars, but wouldn't want one for myself) cars and take pride in keeping my car in excellent nick. The factory stereo suits me just fine. The stock 16" factory wheels are all I need or desire. I love the woodgrain and leather interior.

I only ever use the local BMW dealer for any work on my car and fully trust them.

Am I REALLY alone here???? :dunno


Not at all... Your opinion is valid. While I dont share your view on automatics over manuals per se, all 3 of my cars are bone stock (ok well the e36 has been lightly modded). To me, it's the same, I like quickness, but I'm more then satisfied with the power of my 330 or my 325. And If I want automatic and all weather driving, I drive my Jeep.

[Artikgrau325is]

Possibly... :devillook

LoL...

Well, it depends, as stated before: On the forums, you are probably a minority, many of the members here sport modified cars, a few come here for advice on the know-how and useful information other experienced members provide.

My car is stock except for a front license plate delete and Sylvania headlights, it's also an automatic.

I love the car the way it is, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to change it. I have 4 pairs of shoes so my love is definitely elsewhere :devillook And when I can afford to switch the tranny believe me I will, I drove a manual Ford station wagon and it was more enjoyable than driving my car, I felt more in control of the car, more connected if you will.

Other people can be an enthusiast, and not care about speed, but rather what the car presents in its standard form, such as yourself.

To us that modify our cars, its a way to make them more individual than other standard models and represent our own tastes. =D

Other people don't care about the car, as long as it has 4 wheels and it runs... =\

[Daved]

"The ultimate driving machine" and "automatic tranny" can't be put in the same sentence.

[///M LIFE©]

"The ultimate driving machine" and "automatic tranny" can't be put in the same sentence.
word

[bmw5150]

My grandma drives an automatic...its all good.
:rofl

It's not that automatic cars are bad or anything, it's just that it takes a bit away from the whole driving experience for me. Depending on your driving routine, automatics really make sense...

[seven217]

You should be driving miss daisy. Sorry steering miss daisy.
:rofl ...Jazzbass, you are confusing being an auto enthusiast with a driving enthusiast. Most people here (obviously) are much more involved in their cars.

[Viking325i]

"The ultimate driving machine" and "automatic tranny" can't be put in the same sentence.
The biggest problem with comments like this is that they are very frequent. I really HATE having to justify my cars transmission all the time to people who dont realise someone may actually want something different. It gets really anoying the 50,000th time you hear it.

Autos can be well suited to alot of people, especially if you are doing alot of city driving where traffic can quite frequently be stop/go sorta stuff, and given thats becomming more frequent for me, I will probably keep my daily driver as an auto rather than converting it. My 5 however I have to convert to manual because of power reasons.

[Dnz]

Lets not forget that New Zealand has 5spd auto e36's not those smelly 4spd ones.. It also does have sports mode which keeps it in a gear at the 3k range all the time and stops that akward acceleration hesitation.

Dont knock autos. We drive auto because we cant afford the same convinience that SMG provides:D

[Daved]

The biggest problem with comments like this is that they are very frequent. I really HATE having to justify my cars transmission all the time to people who dont realise someone may actually want something different. It gets really anoying the 50,000th time you hear it.

Autos can be well suited to alot of people, especially if you are doing alot of city driving where traffic can quite frequently be stop/go sorta stuff, and given thats becomming more frequent for me, I will probably keep my daily driver as an auto rather than converting it. My 5 however I have to convert to manual because of power reasons.
I'm glad you heard it 50,000 times already, it seems a lot of people prefer to drive a manual... I mean, they prefer to drive. :devillook

The traffic in Buenos Aires sucks big time, "stop and go" is not even enough for what it's like. Although, most people drive manual cars here, I can say 90% or 95% of the cars are manual. I guess that's why I don't understand why it's more convenient to drive an auto in the city, is it really that much work to shift?

I also don't understand why autos can be well suited to a lot of people, what's so good about autos? I don't see a single good thing about them. Actually I think auto cars are dangerous because they do not make the driver (handler? :stickoutt) pay attention to what it is doing.

I don't mean to offend you but this is my opinion.

[Viking325i]

I also don't understand why autos can be well suited to a lot of people, what's so good about autos? I don't see a single good thing about them. Actually I think auto cars are dangerous because they do not make the driver (handler? ) pay attention to what it is doing.

Thats potentially quite true, however its also possible to say that if the driver is a bad driver, it wouldnt matter what trannys in the car.

In an ideal world I think SMG is much more ideal than a auto, if not for the lack of drivetrain loss compared to the auto, but for the more easier to control shifting. I know that someone makes an interface for some toyota transmissions that more or less turn them into a paddle shift gearbox, if someone could do this for bmw, that may be a nice compromise also, turning it into a tiptronic.

It also depends what you want the car to be, take my E34, I'd love to keep it an auto, mostly because to me, that car really is a nice big comfy cruiser. And to me, a auto suits the cruiser attitude more than a manual. If you drive an auto enough and get to know it, in most cases you can make it do what you want when you want it by how you control the throttle, sure its not as accurate as a manual, but you can do it most of the time.

[Mr.M]

I'm glad you heard it 50,000 times already, it seems a lot of people prefer to drive a manual... I mean, they prefer to drive. :devillook

The traffic in Buenos Aires sucks big time, "stop and go" is not even enough for what it's like. Although, most people drive manual cars here, I can say 90% or 95% of the cars are manual. I guess that's why I don't understand why it's more convenient to drive an auto in the city, is it really that much work to shift?

I also don't understand why autos can be well suited to a lot of people, what's so good about autos? I don't see a single good thing about them. Actually I think auto cars are dangerous because they do not make the driver (handler? :stickoutt) pay attention to what it is doing.

I don't mean to offend you but this is my opinion.

That's not an opinion. That's fact :devillook

[madness]

I also don't understand why autos can be well suited to a lot of people, what's so good about autos? I don't see a single good thing about them. Actually I think auto cars are dangerous because they do not make the driver (handler? :stickoutt) pay attention to what it is doing.

I don't mean to offend you but this is my opinion.

As an opinion, fine. But I have some answers to run by you, based on my opinion. I've had a friend who had been driving a manual for about a year when at once intersection he screwed up, killed his engine, and thus got hit by oncoming traffic. He ended up ok, but both cars were done for.

An automatic allows the driver to focus on where the car is on the road and where it is going, and not about shifting. Once you drive manual for a while, it becomes instinctual, you don't think about it. But you still have to have that hand on the shifter once in a while, making you drive with only one hand. This logically is more dangerous than keeping both hands on the wheel and only worrying about the stop and go pedals.

The bad thing about autos in terms of safety really is dumb people that think "oh, I have two hands on the wheel, I only need one, so I'll eat-drink-talkonthephone-putonmakeup-radjustmyboxers/bra-orsomethingelse while they are driving. I think I can argue that autos are safer in that they make driving simpler.

I have driven both. I love manual. But I wont claim that it is safer because it involves a lot more things to get moving, many more components to driving.

I hope that makes sense.

[Daved]

I've had a friend who had been driving a manual for about a year when at once intersection he screwed up, killed his engine, and thus got hit by oncoming traffic. He ended up ok, but both cars were done for.
Sh*t happens.

I guess it's good you only had a friend that was involved in an accident driving a manual. How many guys do you know that were involved in accidents when driving an auto?


The bad thing about autos in terms of safety really is dumb people that think "oh, I have two hands on the wheel, I only need one, so I'll eat-drink-talkonthephone-putonmakeup-radjustmyboxers/bra-orsomethingelse while they are driving. I think I can argue that autos are safer in that they make driving simpler.
I don't know since when something simpler was safer...

I have discussed with 3 or 4 "auto-lovers" and they all told me that they like to drive an auto because they can do something else at the same time with their free hand. I understand not every auto driver is like that but it seems that the "no need to shift" makes people think it's fine to do something else while driving.

BTW, we have fines here for not having both hands on the steering while (of course when not shifting). This means that if you are doing something else, you may get a ticket for whatever you're doing (like talking on a cellphone) plus another ticket for not having both hands on the steering wheel.

[metale]

There are many times I wish I had an auto. When I'm tired, or stressed and in traffic. The fact that my tranny needs an oil change contributes to that :(

But manual feels very good to me when I'm in the mood, the spend less fuel, the allow tecnics like heel-and-toe, rev-matching, and others, they are cheaper, etc

[Jazzbass]

BTW, we have fines here for not having both hands on the steering while (of course when not shifting). This means that if you are doing something else, you may get a ticket for whatever you're doing (like talking on a cellphone) plus another ticket for not having both hands on the steering wheel.

When we visited LA, we thought everyone was deformed. Almost no-one drove with both hands on the wheel.

I'm not trying to start a manual/auto argument here (that's way too tired). I've stated my preference. Yours may differ. That's life and perfectly normal. The problems arise when people confuse opinions as facts. :)

[sirtiger]

I enjoy driving both manual and automatic... both have their advantages and disadvantages.

:werd:

I feel the same way... also I sometimes don't feel like driving stick, so I take the auto for a spin.

[dos Santos]

I understand what you're saying. I work for an audi dealership, and most of the time, I prefer driving autos around since I drive all day as part of my job. Even when running errands, I'll take out an auto versus a manual.

It is much more relaxing. You can just sit back, crank up the tunes, and chill.

This is why I want a CLS63. ;)

[dm635]

i have one of each.i live away away from the city and drive the 6 as much as possible.the clutch is a bit stiff and getting caught in stop and go traffic is a mucho PITA.but when it opens up enough to row thru the gears,there's nothing better.occasionally while driving the auto i still catch myself reaching down to grab a gear.it's good that some like their autos,if that's what they prefer it may make them a better driver and could care less about having to shift.my wife refuses to drive a stick and that keeps her as a passenger in the 6.

[unesential]

"The ultimate driving machine" and "automatic tranny" can't be put in the same sentence.
How absurd can you get? A 750il would be rediculous with a stick. A mom with kids in a 540T needs no stick. Both are Ultimate driving Machines. How many money shifts do you hear about in an auto.

[madness]

Sh*t happens.

I guess it's good you only had a friend that was involved in an accident driving a manual. How many guys do you know that were involved in accidents when driving an auto?


That's the only friend in an accident I can remember, but maybe that is because I was only 80 yards away when it happened. The point with that was that the manual tranny was culprit. I've never heard of an auto killing the engine when you push the accelerator trying to go, which pretty much guarantees that this accident wouldn't have happened. A manual enables that screw up as a possibility. That's all.

I've been in two accidents myself, but they were something having a manual would have made no difference in, probably. I caused neither, btw, and it was all about braking on my part. Manuals don't stop faster, do they?



I don't know since when something simpler was safer...


Touche... that's a tough point to argue against philosophically. But I can say that I think that not having to worry about an extra thing while driving can allow drivers (if they want to) to focus better on the road. That's the idea behind no cell phone, no eating, no nothing else while driving. It doesn't make sense to me to think that the driver will be doing a better job the more he has to think about while keeping the car going the way he wants to. Shifting is another thing to think about, imo.

I respect that you have your opinion, so don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to offer any insult to you. I'm just an over-analyst of everything, and when I have an opinion, I don't feel comfortable with it unless I find reasonable justification for it. I like to debate things based on logic in the hopes that I learn something. I would be so excited if you proved that manuals are safer because then I could get my mom off my back for me wanting a manual :D

Thanks for your time, Daved

Edit: Oh, and about the 3-4 auto lovers that like autos because of the free hand to do other things... I think that is incredibly irresponsible. While driving DRIVE! Keep yourself and others on the road safe. Do things before and after, but not during... please...

[northeaste36]

How absurd can you get? A 750il would be rediculous with a stick. A mom with kids in a 540T needs no stick. Both are Ultimate driving Machines. How many money shifts do you hear about in an auto.

I think we all know that many moms with kids prefer the stick. Statistically it's probably in the millions as far as all cars, you cannot deny this. I suppose "ultimate driving machine" is subjective, but in my opinion, the only "udm"s(as they shall now be referred to as) with an auto would be the new transmissions that pro race car drivers cannot beat the auto times with a stick(vw).(i guess they are smg?)



That's the only friend in an accident I can remember, but maybe that is because I was only 80 yards away when it happened. The point with that was that the manual tranny was culprit. I've never heard of an auto killing the engine when you push the accelerator trying to go, which pretty much guarantees that this accident wouldn't have happened. A manual enables that screw up as a possibility. That's all..

Could you elaborate on this motor-killing tranny failure? If you are referring to a mis-shift overrev(moneyshift), this is not the fault of the trannsmission unit in any way. If anything, the soft stock tranny mounts allow movement, but that is not due to an inherent unreliability with manuals.

[madness]

Could you elaborate on this motor-killing tranny failure? If you are referring to a mis-shift overrev(moneyshift), this is not the fault of the trannsmission unit in any way. If anything, the soft stock tranny mounts allow movement, but that is not due to an inherent unreliability with manuals.

Oh, it was driver error, he didn't rev up enough and when he let go the clutch, killed the engine. He was fairly experienced with manual, but still screwed it up at an important moment. An automatic doesn't have that happen though. That's all I'm thinking here.

[northeaste36]

Oh, it was driver error, he didn't rev up enough and when he let go the clutch, killed the engine. He was fairly experienced with manual, but still screwed it up at an important moment. An automatic doesn't have that happen though. That's all I'm thinking here.

I guess the auto is good for eliminating that chance of expensive/dangerous driver error, but at what cost???
Joy of driving=manual, joy of being driven=auto.(yes, this is a homo-erotic insinuation.)

[madness]

I guess the auto is good for eliminating that chance of expensive/dangerous driver error, but at what cost???
Joy of driving=manual, joy of being driven=auto.(yes, this is a homo-erotic insinuation.)

Hahaha, yeah. I never said I prefer auto. Just that there are better things. Then it comes to personal choice. Fun vs. less work. In fact, I've always declared preference for manual, for the fun of driving aspect. I just admit auto has that benefit of automation of gear control, eliminating driver error there.

[northeaste36]

Just kidding, not a zinger at you. As if it effects our lives what other people prefer, what is to be gained here?:devillook

[madness]

Just kidding, not a zinger at you. As if it effects our lives what other people prefer, what is to be gained here?:devillook

heh. Well, if some idiot thinks he's more hardcore for driving manual when he can't handle it reliably... we have something to lose. I've known a lot of uncoordinated people :eek: and it really frightens me to think that they may drive manual. :eyecrazy

[digitaldragon03]

I dont know about you guys, but i know plenty of people who drive manual and eat/talk on phone/etc.

[metale]

Oh, it was driver error, he didn't rev up enough and when he let go the clutch, killed the engine. He was fairly experienced with manual, but still screwed it up at an important moment.

Even If he rev-matched it, the engine speed would still be above red-line and damage the engine.

He just selected the wrong gear.

Lack of rev-matching by itself would, at most, cause him to loose traction.

[madness]

Even If he rev-matched it, the engine speed would still be above red-line and damage the engine.

He just selected the wrong gear.

Lack of rev-matching by itself would, at most, cause him to loose traction.

It seems I was unclear. He was at a dead stop. Was going to turn left across the oncoming traffic's street. His engine only had enough power to get his car moving forward into the way of the oncoming traffic. Then it died. It was the most common simple error. When you learn to drive a manual, the hardest thing is learning to start going forward from a stop in 1st gear. This is what he screwed up, despite having driven manual for a while.

Does this make sense? Rev-matching was not a factor, nothing fancy.

[greenmanstunnel]

I also don't understand why autos can be well suited to a lot of people, what's so good about autos? I don't see a single good thing about them. Actually I think auto cars are dangerous because they do not make the driver (handler? :stickoutt) pay attention to what it is doing.

I don't mean to offend you but this is my opinion.

Any data to back this up? One could just as easily assert the opinion that a stickshift is more dangerous because the driver has to focus on other things besides what he should be doing, which is steering the car in the proper direction (ie - taking his mind off of driving). I have no data to back that up either, but it makes just as much sense as what you threw out there.

Autos don't wear out clutches. Having an auto won't cause a person to stall the engine at an inopportune time. Autos don't encourage aggressive driving.

See how many great things there are about automatic transmissions?

[metale]

I, I get it. We call it "clutch point", when pedal funtions reverse. Clutch pedal controls the power and gas pedal has to prevent the engine from "dying" (keeping revs above an acceptable value).

[northeaste36]

Any data to back this up? One could just as easily assert the opinion that a stickshift is more dangerous because the driver has to focus on other things besides what he should be doing, which is steering the car in the proper direction (ie - taking his mind off of driving). I have no data to back that up either, but it makes just as much sense as what you threw out there.

Autos don't wear out clutches. Having an auto won't cause a person to stall the engine at an inopportune time. Autos don't encourage aggressive driving.

See how many great things there are about automatic transmissions?

I disagree. Manual's don't wera out clutches. Drivers wear out clutches. My car is at 178k miles and the original clutch is fine and has plenty of life. I could not ask for more from this clutch, but I will get it anyway(until I bolt certain things to the exhaust side of the cyl. head.). Manuals don't cause you to stall. It would not stall if you were not in there trying to drive it wrong.
Autos don't encourage aggressive driving, but neither to manuals, that is also dependent on the driver, do you even believe these things yourself? This is grasping at the air for things wrong with manual.

[madness]

I disagree. Manual's don't wera out clutches. Drivers wear out clutches. My car is at 178k miles and the original clutch is fine and has plenty of life. I could not ask for more from this clutch, but I will get it anyway(until I bolt certain things to the exhaust side of the cyl. head.). Manuals don't cause you to stall. It would not stall if you were not in there trying to drive it wrong.
Autos don't encourage aggressive driving, but neither to manuals, that is also dependent on the driver, do you even believe these things yourself? This is grasping at the air for things wrong with manual.

Manuals don't cause you to stall, but they sure increase the chances that you will. Autos just don't stall. From 0 chance (auto) to non-0 chance (manual) is an infinite increase in probability ;)
Also, people prefer manuals for the added power and acceleration it gives you. Look at the forums, people say autos are slower, boring. So then manuals give you more power. With more power, you can drive more aggressive, faster, harder. Many people, when they have something like that, will use it at least once in a while.
The driver is in control, no question about that. But, the driver can screw up (stall) or be tempted to drive more race like in a manual because humans are not perfect. If you can't do it, you wont. If you can, you probably will. I do :devillook

[RedV]

If you were a true car enthusiast like you say you are, you would be good enough at driving a 5 speed that you wouldnt' think abuot it when you drive. Occasionally it gets annoying in traffic and such, but the pros much outweigh the cons imho. Driving at automatic isn't driving... you're just steering.

[madness]

If you were a true car enthusiast like you say you are, you would be good enough at driving a 5 speed that you wouldnt' think abuot it when you drive. Occasionally it gets annoying in traffic and such, but the pros much outweigh the cons imho. Driving at automatic isn't driving... you're just steering.

Yeah, I believe that. I just don't see how someone can not see any benefits in automatics at all... steering is simpler than driving, even if it isn't fun. Driving manual for some never becomes second nature. Note that I was not discussing my own ability or fear of driving manual. It was a more general statement of which is safer for the general public as a whole. Basically, I think it'd be safer on the roads if everyone were forced to drive automatic as opposed to everyone being forced to drive manual.

Thankfully, we have a choice :) I sure hope to switch to manual with my next car. Parents bought me an automatic bimmer while I'm 21 as my first car... I won't complain. I just see usefulness in both designs.

[greenmanstunnel]

I disagree. Manual's don't wera out clutches. Drivers wear out clutches. My car is at 178k miles and the original clutch is fine and has plenty of life. I could not ask for more from this clutch, but I will get it anyway(until I bolt certain things to the exhaust side of the cyl. head.). Manuals don't cause you to stall. It would not stall if you were not in there trying to drive it wrong.
Autos don't encourage aggressive driving, but neither to manuals, that is also dependent on the driver, do you even believe these things yourself? This is grasping at the air for things wrong with manual.

I'm mainly throwing them out there as devil's advocate, but I do believe there is some truth to each. "It would not stall if you were not in there trying to drive it wrong" is kind-of ludicrous. Everyone makes a mistake occasionally, but that doesn't mean they're trying to drive it wrong.

Certainly some clutches will wear out, regardless of driving style. It is a wear item.

Just for reference, I drive a stickshift myself (2000 VW Golf), so I'm certainly not against them. I just can't imagine the attitude "you don't drive an automatic, you just steer it." Does that mean I don't have to accelerate or brake? Does that make the sensations of acceleration and cornering disappear? I really don't get it. Sure, a stick is more fun, but it's not like you can drive an auto while in a coma or something.

[northeaste36]

I'm mainly throwing them out there as devil's advocate, but I do believe there is some truth to each. "It would not stall if you were not in there trying to drive it wrong" is kind-of ludicrous. Everyone makes a mistake occasionally, but that doesn't mean they're trying to drive it wrong.

Certainly some clutches will wear out, regardless of driving style. It is a wear item.

Just for reference, I drive a stickshift myself (2000 VW Golf), so I'm certainly not against them. I just can't imagine the attitude "you don't drive an automatic, you just steer it." Does that mean I don't have to accelerate or brake? Does that make the sensations of acceleration and cornering disappear? I really don't get it. Sure, a stick is more fun, but it's not like you can drive an auto while in a coma or something.

Ok, fair enough, but the anti-manual excuses(from everybody) are just those, excuses, excepting for driver error. It is worth a few stall-outs.

[Road_Carver]

no, you are NOT alone!!

I myself have a Mexican made 5-string Jazz Bass......

:stickoutt ;) :D

[RedV]

Basically, I think it'd be safer on the roads if everyone were forced to drive automatic as opposed to everyone being forced to drive manual.


I completely disagree there. If everyone drove a standard, people would pay WAY more attention to driving than other activities. At work, I find myself bullshitting doing other stuff while driving autos like talking on the phone, playing with teh radio, eating etc. But when I hop in a 5/6speed car, I have 95% of my attention on the road as opposed to about half with an auto.

[Jazzbass]

Road_Carver - whoo hoo, a fellow muso and BMW fan.

I have a '72 P I've had since new, a '99 P, a '97 J and a '98 P 5 string, not counting my Strats etc...

[Road_Carver]

Sweet!! I have a Vaughan Strat as well, I used to have a '1981 P-Bass and really regret selling it......

:redspot

[madness]

I completely disagree there. If everyone drove a standard, people would pay WAY more attention to driving than other activities. At work, I find myself bullshitting doing other stuff while driving autos like talking on the phone, playing with teh radio, eating etc. But when I hop in a 5/6speed car, I have 95% of my attention on the road as opposed to about half with an auto.

*stumped*

ok ok, true. You win that.

But if doing anything else but focusing on driving were illegal... :devillook

I concede to you that the world is too complicated for my, or almost any, generalization. I just took a 2 hour nap and it helped me see the error of my statments. But I did have fun debating ;)

Gimme manual tranny!!! :redspot