S38B38 N/A vs M3 N/A ?

[NoHope]

I love FI cars, i have driven a few and i have a lot of respect for the guys running this type of setup. Eventually i would love to build a nice streetable version but for now my mind is elsewhere. To me nothing replaces a naturally asspirated car, i love the sound of high rpm's and the thought of the compression going through the roof. The sound is also what draws me in so the "theme" will be N/A.

Criteria:
The car must remain streetable, will be driven 3-4 times a week, and it will not get any track time for the first year or so, also i dont want to have to constantly rebuild this motor, so it has to be somewhat reliable. I have a decent amount of money packed away for this so unless we're talking $50k + i should be fine.

Now with that being said here's my thoughts:

Is it possible to run a S38B38 setup upwards of 500hp? (considering what i had to say)
-i read a post by defecto(sp?) that he had his at like 400+hp but i wasnt sure if 450+ would be reliable.

The only other option i considered is having an M3 motor worked and tuned to have somewhere in the neighborhood of 350ish hp. Im guessing anything over that for that engine is not reliable.

My major conflict is this: would the M5 motor built up to 400+ hp be sluggish in any way compared to a built up M3 motor thats pushing 350hp? the reason i ask is because even though they are both I6's it seems the M5 motor would be a lot more torquey, lower rpm's and maybe a bit more hesitant than a built m3 motor thats less displacement, highier rpms.

If im not making myself clear let me know.

[Mitch]

First things first: are talking about crank or wheel hp?

[Null]

You are not going to get 350 wheel or crank horsepower from an M3 motor without FI.

[NoHope]

First things first: are talking about crank or wheel hp?

crank, sorry i didnt specify.

[NoHope]

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=299197&highlight=S38B38

this was my inspiration, he said with his setup he was told he could produce upwards of 475hp at the crank, and i think that theres more that could be done to push 500. i wish i could afford the unreliablity of that engine pushing 500+hp....

[OPTIMO]

Learn how to drive properly. It's more important than bhp.

[fliplap]

Learn how to drive properly. It's more important than bhp.

Not to the original poster it isn't. How do you know he doesn't know how to drive?

Back on topic...

You'll never make 350hp out of an S52. You might have a shot a 350 crank hp from a euro S50B32 however. Finding parts for either of these engines is going to be tough, but you'd probably have better luck with the S50B32. Though, for all this, have you considered an S54 swap?

Also, it would help to post exactly what car you're planning on doing all this to.

[Jazzbass]

S38B38 N/A vs M3 N/A
I had to read this thread because the title confused me. Now I've read it I'm none the wiser... :lol:

I'm assuming FI is forced induction (blower?) (I read it as F1 -as in Formula One - -duh!) but what an S38B38 is..no idea...

update: OK, Google is my friend: http://www.bmwworld.com/engines/s38.htm now I know.
Learning all the time - gotta be good!!

[OPTIMO]

Not to the original poster it isn't. How do you know he doesn't know how to drive?

Read his post. His posed the wrong questions, that's how I know he doesn't know how to drive.

[cgregory]

Read his post. His posed the wrong questions, that's how I know he doesn't know how to drive.
Maybe he just enjoys building an engine...it's not a crime.

You might also want to consider a euro S50. They can rev to ~8500 with just a chip.

[NoHope]

thanks for the input, ive done a lot of reading and was hoping for people with experience with these n/a engines to chime in but its all good.

[Mblaster]

I love FI cars, i have driven a few and i have a lot of respect for the guys running this type of setup. Eventually i would love to build a nice streetable version but for now my mind is elsewhere. To me nothing replaces a naturally asspirated car, i love the sound of high rpm's and the thought of the compression going through the roof. The sound is also what draws me in so the "theme" will be N/A.
Criteria:
The car must remain streetable, will be driven 3-4 times a week, and it will not get any track time for the first year or so, also i dont want to have to constantly rebuild this motor, so it has to be somewhat reliable. I have a decent amount of money packed away for this so unless we're talking $50k + i should be fine.
Now with that being said here's my thoughts:
Is it possible to run a S38B38 setup upwards of 500hp? (considering what i had to say)
-i read a post by defecto(sp?) that he had his at like 400+hp but i wasnt sure if 450+ would be reliable.
The only other option i considered is having an M3 motor worked and tuned to have somewhere in the neighborhood of 350ish hp. Im guessing anything over that for that engine is not reliable.
My major conflict is this: would the M5 motor built up to 400+ hp be sluggish in any way compared to a built up M3 motor thats pushing 350hp? the reason i ask is because even though they are both I6's it seems the M5 motor would be a lot more torquey, lower rpm's and maybe a bit more hesitant than a built m3 motor thats less displacement, highier rpms.
If im not making myself clear let me know.

Yea you are not being very clear.
Do you want to build a E34 M5 or a M3...E36 or E46?
If you want a 400+hp E34 M5 you will put at least 25K into the engine and associated electronics. The engine will probably be a 3.9 or 4.0 stroker motor.
lt would be cheaper and easier to just go buy a Porsche.

[NoHope]

Yea you are not being very clear.
Do you want to build a E34 M5 or a M3...E36 or E46?
If you want a 400+hp E34 M5 you will put at least 25K into the engine and associated electronics. The engine will probably be a 3.9 or 4.0 stroker motor.
lt would be cheaper and easier to just go buy a Porsche.

yeah sorry i didnt make myself completely clear first off.

this engine that i am going to build will go into my e36 325is. i dont know if i wanna build the e34 m5 motor or an e36 m3 motor.

[B.Watts]

You'll never make 350hp out of an S52.

That's just not true. Just because you can't do it by bolting on an intake and some cams doesn't mean it can't be done. There are multiple examples of people running similiar power in club racing and the motors last multiple seasons.


You might have a shot a 350 crank hp from a euro S50B32 however.

A shot? They make 321 stock. 350 is a breeze. 400 isn't that hard.


Finding parts for either of these engines is going to be tough, but you'd probably have better luck with the S50B32.

Also just not true. Parts aren't that hard to come by. Sure, you can't just go down to Autozone to pick them up, but they aren't impossible to get. We've raced everything from built bone stock S50B32's to built S52's and S50B32's.

[NoHope]

thanks for clearing some things up bryan. so with upwards or 30k a reliable 450+hp S38 can be done?

see its a toss up, i see the s38 being a bit more sluggish bc of the large displacement and then i see the s50 as a more high revving "spunky" type....is my thinking correct?

[Mblaster]

yeah sorry i didnt make myself completely clear first off.
this engine that i am going to build will go into my e36 325is. i dont know if i wanna build the e34 m5 motor or an e36 m3 motor.


OK, An S50 would be the easier of the two to actually make work in a E36.
If money and time isn't a issue and you love a good challenge, build the S38 cause you would have the most badass E36 in the USA.

[NoHope]

If money and time isn't a issue and you love a good challenge, build the S38 cause you would have the most badass E36 in the USA.

see thats what im saying. how many people do u see building up a s38 to 450+hp, i want something that satisfies my need for pure power (besides FI) but i want to explore my options first.

[NoHope]

oh and, time wont be an issuse for sure, and like in my original post i prob will have upwards of 50k to work with, i can always push back finishing date if money is a problem.

[bobz]

I vote for a S38, they can make 350 without a problem stock, with cams, porting and flowing the head, lighter flywheel for more revy pickup and aftermarket ECU and better exaust you should see 400+ at the flywheel with 60+ M of reliability.

BobZ

[unesential]

IMHO the S38 will build to motor that you would not regret. THe engine breathes great and revs up very well to start. The car you wish to put in is the problem. I think you would be better served going with the block that the car was designed to have as it makes more cash available for the engine as opposed to vehicle modifications to make an engine fit.

[brianglawson]

you all mean to tell me you couldnt get 350 hp out of a US s52 that was obd1, cammed, with a little headwork and a bump in compression.... i say BULL S*** it would just require reworking the internals, forged pistons, higher compression, porting, polishing, cmon now....

[Mblaster]

lt would be cheaper and easier to just go buy a Porsche.


And I'm a big BMW guy too...
Resale would be better too...

[PrinceE30]

Here's what I've heard...

From one particular person (McHenry), the S38 is not the engine you want to be spending a lot of money on. It's large displacement isn't condusive to the performance people who are used to the small displacement M engines are. From what I've heard (this is 2nd hand information), the S38 is not a good option (not to mention it's weight).

In my opinion, if you're looking to build something with 350-400HP (reliable)...I'd hit up the S54. People like Vic Sias have S54s in their E36 SM car. With his Tec3 (http://www.siastuning.com/) and all the bolt ons (CF Intake, headers, free flow, underdrive) and some cams, you could easily be running an engine in the 360-400 crank area that should last you more than 50,000 miles and be street drivable.

MPILOT on bf.c has a company that does work with Delage Sport (http://www.kinetechnik.com/). The site has dyno proof that his stage I will get around 311WHP (with 91AKI). Stage III gets around 330WHP (91AKI) and that's without headers and a free exhaust or UDPs.

I say, go with the TEC3 tuning of Vic and the Delage Sport tuning and you should be easily laying out 340WHP while spending maybe $30,000 (for the engine, the swap, aftermarket parts, and the ECU tuning).

That's just my $0.20.

-Prince

[NoHope]

thanks for the imput. anyone else feel the same?

[ehlpitel]

S54 in an E36 or E30 would be my absolute dream car!