Euro M3 evo

[Rory]

Hi guys/girls


I currently own an Euro M3 evolution :buttrock

I was after the opinions of you guys on what products are the best modifications for increasing Bhp. Reason i ask is i may be branching out into performance products for M3's and it would be useful to know what i'm up against!

I'm currently designing a new filter and heatshield at the moment...although it is still in an early prototype stage.....too busy at work to put in some real R&D.

So obviously most people cause of action are the above, exhaust and a chip...but what next and by whom?


Many thanks in advance



Rory

[DSK M3/4]

-intake (ecis, jim c., dinan...)
-exhaust (AA, UUC, RE, SS, Eisemann, RDSport)
-cams (BMP? jim c.)
-forced induction (AA, RMS, dinan)
-strokers (RDSport)

that's just off the top of my head. i'm sure others will have more ideas.

[jblack]

DSK M3/4,

I'm not sure you caught that this is a euro. I don't think most of the mods you mention are available for this setup. Especially the Jim C stuff and the Dinan stuff. That is pretty much US only.

OTOH, Schnitzer probably has some upgrades.....

[M3RACER]

Why mess with such a good stock engine? Leave it alone!

[HR-M3]

Originally posted by jblack
DSK M3/4,

I'm not sure you caught that this is a euro. I don't think most of the mods you mention are available for this setup. Especially the Jim C stuff and the Dinan stuff. That is pretty much US only.

OTOH, Schnitzer probably has some upgrades.....

Yes, in addition to AC Schnitzer, there is also Hartge, Nowack, Brayton, Kerscher, Volkl, Hamann, and even Alpina. All good stuff. I wouldn't bother making something on my own unless you know exactly what you are doing or an automotive engineer.

Here is a link to some tuning companies - some are in UK.
http://www.katho.be/vhti/automechanica/tuning.htm

[DSK M3/4]

hmmm... true? not sure. at any rate, those mods, but from different tuners, should still be available, right?

[jumpman]

Non of the US tuners cater for Euro M3s. You need to remember that the Euro Evo engine is totally different to the US model. There isnt much that can be done as this engine is already reaching its upper potential for NA.

Beyond the higher profile European companies mentioned by HR-M3, there are some smaller companies that have pretty good products for the Euros such as HiOP, etc. All euro tuners will admit that there is limited room to improve beyond major internal mods.

You'll find that all the tuners have on offer in terms of bolt ons for the Euro M3 Evos are consistent.

CF Airbox, exhaust, chip programming.

[Eurom3]

Yeah, I agree. There isn't much more one can do. I have driven & raced a Hartge 3.5 coverted M3 though. Besides the displacement increase they also add Schrick 288 cams. It has better torque down low because of the bigger engine & has a bigger kick at the top due to the cams. It was also lighter on gas than my standard car.

[jumpman]

Well, thats a totally different kettle of fish.

If you go to the route of internal mods, then there are alot more that can be done.

I think you're over simplifying the displacement and cam profile benefits. They work hand in hand not individually.

[badbadm]

I think PTG got near 400bhp out of that motor, but I think it was only set up to last for one day. That probably wouldn't work for most street cars.

[Scho]

Off Topic: jumpman, your car is sick!!!! I love it!!!

[jumpman]

Thanks :D

[Alan Taur]

http://members.roadfly.com/eurom3/sig.jpg

Hey, EuroM3.

Why does your signature pic feature a 3.0L Euro motor when you have a 97 M3/4?

Just curious. Not trying to cause trouble or nothin' :)

-Alan

[MMTuning]

Actually,
The PTG 6cyl M3s have around 450-470. A set of cams and some bolt on tweaks can make a daily driver achieve 380-400hp. The reliablility will be fine. I would suggest contacting Nowack Tuning or Kerscher Tuning for software upgrades. Very cool car!!!:alright

[BMLRacer]

Originally posted by MMTuning
Actually,
The PTG 6cyl M3s have around 450-470. A set of cams and some bolt on tweaks can make a daily driver achieve 380-400hp. The reliablility will be fine.

MM,

Not gonna happen. A GOOD PTG 3.2L (actually a 3.2 bottom end with a 3.0 head), like a Speed GT motor only makes about 400. And these are engines that are only going to live about 3 races. Pierre Collett has gone to the absolute limit of stock electronics and he makes 385 ( and it will last less than 1 season of club racing, and it cost about $20k just in the build). The PTG GT cars, at the very end of the 6 cyl days, made between 415 and 440 depending on configuration and durability. The main reason that the V8 was brought is was because there simply was nothing left in the 3.2. Plan on about 340-350 being the limit of reliable power on the Euro 3.2

[Eurom3]

Alan, perfectly good explanation. I had a '95 3.0 386 hp Coupe before I got the sedan. The engine pic is from my 3.0 coupe. GO to my site to see more pics of both cars.

http://uk.geocities.com/eurom3

[michaelab]

Originally posted by Eurom3
Alan, perfectly good explanation. I had a '95 3.0 386 hp Coupe before I got the sedan. The engine pic is from my 3.0 coupe. GO to my site to see more pics of both cars.

http://uk.geocities.com/eurom3

Errr...I think you meant to say 286hp not 386hp coupe :wave:

Michael.

[michaelab]

Originally posted by Alan Taur
http://members.roadfly.com/eurom3/sig.jpg

Hey, EuroM3.

Why does your signature pic feature a 3.0L Euro motor when you have a 97 M3/4?

Just curious. Not trying to cause trouble or nothin' :)

-Alan

Alan, you are sad! How can you tell from that tiny and slightly out of focus picture that it's a 3.0L? I have a 3.2L Euro and AFAIK the only visible difference is the single VANOS on the 3.0L vs. the double VANOS on the 3.2L but I can't see the VANOS unit clearly enough to tell on that picture.

I guess that since you did a 3.2L retro into your car you must know the thing like the back of your hand!

Michael.

[rhl]

Originally posted by michaelab
...How can you tell from that tiny and slightly out of focus picture that it's a 3.0L? I have a 3.2L Euro and AFAIK the only visible difference is the single VANOS on the 3.0L vs. the double VANOS on the 3.2L but I can't see the VANOS unit clearly enough to tell on that picture.


The center of the valve cover is different from Euro 3.0 to 3.2. The VANOS is harder to see :)

RHL

[Rory]

Firstly thanks for all the replies:clap:


Originally posted by HR-M3


I wouldn't bother making something on my own unless you know exactly what you are doing or an automotive engineer.



Not that i admit to knowing everything...lol.... I currently the chief development engineer working for an Automotive prototype/research and development company.

I am currently working on the Vemac project. As i know a lot of you guys are in the States i don't believe you get a magazine called Evo. If any of you have managed to read a copy it was reviewed in the June issue. We also built a race version for the Japanese Gt., to race in the GT300 category (it got Pole and a Win on it's first race :redspot )

Anyway enough of my mumbling! I'm only planning on Air/exhaust, engine braces and maybe playing with suspension (i guess i should be attacking this area first as most of my experience is within this field).

So a few more questions?

1. a) How much is an air intake heatshield in the states?
b) How effective are they?
c) How many would be prepared to lose your foglights in a
trade-off for a cold air intake?

2. What size is the OD (part in which intake clamps to) on the airflow sensor on us M3'S or alternatively what size on Airflow meters that most people upgrade to?

3. I have seen some people referring to a x-brace. I guess this as it is a BMW part originates from the convertible? If fitted to a hard top is there any noticeable improvement?

I guess that is enough questions for the time being!!

Many thanks again to all you guys for taken time to reply

Cheers


Rory.

[C.Yang]

are you reffering to the stock airbox or the aftermarket heat shields. the latter dont cost much. 50 bux or so, if you want you can make one yourself. If i were racing, i would rather lose a headlight than a foglight. the passenger headlamp replaced with one fabricated with holes will give u much more performance gain than the foglight.

[Medvedko]

Minor change, sorry.....

About the air intake I have seen 2 companies make an airbox for the EURO M3's. Hamann and ACS I believe have their own designs. From my understanding nobody knows really what kind of power is made with the addition of these aftermarket air boxes. Someone way back said Hamann claimed something like 18HP which seems quite high. Otherwise they are beautiful pieces to see in the engine:dunno

[fourfa]

the x-brace helps a *lot* on the hardtops. in fact it's probably the best bang-for-the-buck improvement you can make. firms up the steering response with no NVH downside.

[jumpman]

Rory,

If you're looking at parts for the Euro M3, then you're better off targetting rest of the world rather than the US since the number of Euro M3 are rather limited. Intakes and the standard mods for US M3 are plenty. I would love to see more for the Euros.

To go through some of the things mentioned,

1) There's already parts available to convert existing fog lamps into CAI and they are being manufactured in Japan. Two version available, one without any fog lamps and the other with a very small round fog lamp complimenting a airduct. All have ducts specially made to fit the euro M3s and plumbed into the existing airbox.

2) Most people I've spoken to tend to change their US M3's HFM to the Euro.

3) The X-brace is an excellent upgrade but I feel that it works far better in conjunction with a strut bar to strengthen the chassis. The most noticeable difference are on high speed corners, the turn in is a lot sharper. By far the combo was amongst the best mods I can actually feel in my car. Note that DIXIS in Japan has made a new Xbrace using carbon kevlar and turn the xbrace into a frame structure which supposed gives the same stiffness of the xbrace but only weights 1.2kg.

4) The CF airboxes are being manufactured by alot of companies. The main difference amongst the various providers are whether they have actually taken care of making tuned trumpets inside the airboxes. Some dont and simply make a box.

The CF airbox only really works with proper ECU programming and other internal mods. We ran 2 different airboxes here (BMW CLub HK), one from Hamann and the other from Evolution2 and with mixed results and complications.

Would be happy to share ideas on what can be done to this baby.

[Sam L]

you guys are my heroes

[LEVOC///MPower]

Originally posted by M3RACER
Why mess with such a good stock engine? Leave it alone!

Exactly, this is why I keep my euro M3 fully stock! Even returned to stock exhaust and suspension.

It can retain greater value this way too

:)

[CLS007]

Rory!

I think there is a very good AirBox made by K&N, you can check out the pic by going to my site. most of the airbox installation you would need to adjust a little on the A/F mixture, cuz I remeber one of my friend had a EVO2 carbon box on his M3, and it just didn't work when he fitted it without modifying the A/F. He told me that idling was not stable and the eng did not like it. There is one other option, Hamann they do a package include Carbon airbox, mod ECU and I think cam as well. the whole package cost around GBP2000-3000, but you will get extra +30bhp(I did a enquire about 8month ago so not sure if the price is still rite?).

[jumpman]

Originally posted by LEVOC///MPower


Exactly, this is why I keep my euro M3 fully stock! Even returned to stock exhaust and suspension.

It can retain greater value this way too

:)

Each to their own really.

Some people look at their car as a hobbie and make greater efforts in making it personal.

As for it being greater value, well I hope you werent expecting to make alot of money from it...you may be disappointed.

[CLS007]

:12: jumpman,

total bizard question, do you by any chance know a guy call Charles Wan in HK ( the founder of HK BMW owners club)?

[jumpman]

Yeah...of course I know Charles.

Small world.

[bigeye]

what is the basic differences between an m3 engine and a 328 engine(1997) and how much more power is available.???what basic mods can i make to catch up?When i bought my BMW,i was a mercedes guy and i didnt know about M3s.Ide like to keep my car but i like peformance.I guess with the 328 i have something to work with?????Joe
PS I have done the air cooler cone filter.Whats next??

[norman]

Hey Jumpman
your car look sweet,too bad it didnt come over to the US. So where do people track their cars in HK? Ju Hoi?
norman

[rhl]

Originally posted by LEVOC///MPower
Exactly, this is why I keep my euro M3 fully stock! Even returned to stock exhaust and suspension.

It can retain greater value this way too
:)


C'mon, an M3 isn't going to make you rich, if you'd enjoy it more on a day to day basis modify it! Of the Can/Euro cars I've seen change hands, mods haven't had a detrimetal effect on the resale value. Not to mention that most of what is discussed here are simple bolt-on mods. Take 'em off before you sell the car.

If you don't mod it you'll never have ~255rwhp like my buddies Euro 3.0 does :D

RHL

[jblack]

Bigeye/Big Joe,

I think your question will not be answered to your satisfaction in this thread, as the discussion is on Euro M3 engines, which is a totally diferent bird from the US M3 Engines. Your best bets are (in order)
1.Search the board for your answers
2.Start a new thread with your questions.

BTW, there are many upgrades for 2.8 engines, some bringing it very near the M3's perfomance numbers, some even exceeding them. You may want to consider the balance of the car (engine vs. suspension vs. brakes) to see if upgrading a 2.8 to M3 stats makes sense for you (big engine+small brakes=bad things).

[jumpman]

Originally posted by norman
Hey Jumpman
your car look sweet,too bad it didnt come over to the US. So where do people track their cars in HK? Ju Hoi?
norman

Yeah..unfortunately, not much choice this part of town. We only have the Zhuhai race track which they are attempting to change to bring the F1 championship into. If they can do that, it'll definitely make the track even better but probably more expensive to use.

[norman]

jumpman
to use the facility at zhuhai, do u need to belong to a "car club" or do they organize their own track days? and approx. how much? i maybe going to hongkong in dec. and have access to a car to use.
norman

[jumpman]

Normally, two of the local publications that cover car modifications (Top Mission and Options) wil organise track days a few times a year. Its complicated to just bring your own car because of the need to get special permits to drive you vehicle across the border and to drive in China for that matter.

Its certainly quite a costly outing and not like track access in most other countries where you can simply pay for track time as long as your car passes scrutineering. Generally, a weekend track day, bringing your own vehicle with garage facilities provided at the track will set you back US$1300. Then you need to consider the cost of getting your car track ready (pads, fluids, mechanics, etc and the cost of staying for the weekend) which will probably get you closer to US$2000 for a track outing.

Otherwise, you can contact several of the track organisers in Zhuhai such as FRD and use their vehicle which can be rented for the weekend.

Count yourselves lucky that track outings are so accessible.

[norman]

that's outrageous! i guess that's why my friends in HK tell me mostly the ferrari clubs go tracking. i just finished a trackday event here near san francisco and the cost was $195.
norman

[Rory]

Originally posted by jumpman
Rory,

If you're looking at parts for the Euro M3, then you're better off targetting rest of the world rather than the US since the number of Euro M3 are rather limited. Intakes and the standard mods for US M3 are plenty. I would love to see more for the Euros.

To go through some of the things mentioned,

1) There's already parts available to convert existing fog lamps into CAI and they are being manufactured in Japan. Two version available, one without any fog lamps and the other with a very small round fog lamp complimenting a airduct. All have ducts specially made to fit the euro M3s and plumbed into the existing airbox.

DIXIS in Japan has made a new Xbrace using carbon kevlar and turn the xbrace into a frame structure which supposed gives the same stiffness of the xbrace but only weights 1.2kg.

4) The CF airboxes are being manufactured by alot of companies. The main difference amongst the various providers are whether they have actually taken care of making tuned trumpets inside the airboxes. Some dont and simply make a box.

The CF airbox only really works with proper ECU programming and other internal mods. We ran 2 different airboxes here (BMW CLub HK), one from Hamann and the other from Evolution2 and with mixed results and complications.

Would be happy to share ideas on what can be done to this baby.


Thanks for the info.

I was planning on mainly catering for the Euro M3's although there is no harm in making air filter boxes..e.t.c. that will also fit US m3's.

Secondly do you have any links to a website or images of the foglight air intake and carbon x-brace?

Lastly for now....lol what sort of gains did you see with the carbon airboxes and what were that trade off if any?

BTW you car looks great. :buttrock

Thanks again



Rory

[RogRacer]

Just curious...how much rwhp does a 3.0 Euro motor make on, say, a dynojet 248C? I've seen some curves for the 3.2, but not a stock 3.0. I should think that a tunned 3.0 US motor, maybe even without cams, should come close (if not exceed) to a Stock 3.0 Euro. :)

[rhl]

Originally posted by RogRacer
Just curious...how much rwhp does a 3.0 Euro motor make on, say, a dynojet 248C?

We had my buddy's '94 3.0 Euro on the dyno (248C). It is stock except for no cats and a muffler. 250rwhp on 3 runs. I don't remember the exact TQ number. Euro's are strong!

RHL

[jumpman]

Originally posted by norman
that's outrageous! i guess that's why my friends in HK tell me mostly the ferrari clubs go tracking. i just finished a trackday event here near san francisco and the cost was $195.
norman

Well, actually thats not true. Ferrari clubs only go maybe twice a year. The same goes for the Porsche Club.

Alot of clubs will participate in the Options track day, be it BMW, Toyota, Elise etc.

Its the premium on lack of land in this town.

[jumpman]

Originally posted by Rory



Thanks for the info.

I was planning on mainly catering for the Euro M3's although there is no harm in making air filter boxes..e.t.c. that will also fit US m3's.

Secondly do you have any links to a website or images of the foglight air intake and carbon x-brace?

Lastly for now....lol what sort of gains did you see with the carbon airboxes and what were that trade off if any?

BTW you car looks great. :buttrock

Thanks again



Rory

The two companies that sell the foglight air intake and carbon xbrace are Studie (www.studie.co.jp) and Dixis in Japan. I'll see if I still have the photos.

On the 3.0 with the CF airbox and ECU programming, the HP was 325 but it was spewing oil into the airbox chamber.

[RogRacer]

Originally posted by rhl


We had my buddy's '94 3.0 Euro on the dyno (248C). It is stock except for no cats and a muffler. 250rwhp on 3 runs. I don't remember the exact TQ number. Euro's are strong!

RHL

Interesting. Perhaps 235-240, then, with a stock exhaust. That's within reach of a 3.0 US Spec motor without cams, barely.

[BSH]

I got a euro 3.0L. Bone stock.

On a dynojet 248 I pulled 254 rwhp.

I just installed a SS exhaust, Conforti intake and chip. I haven't dyno'd it yet.

All I can say is that euro 3.0L engines seem to be under-rated from the factory. Based on my pull and others who have dyno'd their euro 3.0L's, they all seem to pull 250+ rwhp.

An exhaust would definitely not increase power by 10-20 rwhp.