Coilovers: Ground-Control or TC Kline?

[Hans B]

Trying to decide between the GC Track School setup with externally adjustable rear shocks for around $1,350 vs. the TC Kline True Match setup with similar features for around $1,400.

Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks.

Hans
97 M3

[shim]

Gc

[SG_M3]

Both are great setups, can't go wrong with either. Both offer great service, the price differnce is the expensive springs TCK uses.

what spring rates are you planning to go with?

[Serious]

tc kline.

[ChewToy]

tckline.. if you want to save some money.. opt to get the eibachs.

[97Msedan]

I had Ground Controls on my car and was happy with them, except I used to have some trouble with the camber/caster plates every now and then (that was probably due to the previous owner).

I've only heard good things about the TC Kline setup.

[Hans B]

Money is not really the issue...what I'm looking for a is an amazing handling street car with the occassional (1-2 times a year) DE.

Not sure about spring rates yet...it needs to be reasonably comfortable for day-to-driving...stiffer than stock is okay...but not THAT stiff. ;-)

i'm trying to find that spot where the car is no softer than it has to be ...and still handles beautifully. But aren't we all sometimes?

I love the idea of coilovers...and I don't mind spending more on them, even if I don't use them to their full advantage. So please, no comments that say "you don't need coilovers, save your money and buy regular springs/shocks", okay? ;-)

Thanks.

Hans

[sunir]

Both are great setups, can't go wrong with either. Both offer great service, the price differnce is the expensive springs TCK uses.

what spring rates are you planning to go with?

agreed...either one will work for your purposes...and both are good...

[Gene V]

I've been running the TCK TruMatch setup with Motor-Force camber plates for several months now and they're great. Springs are 450F/500R. TCK springs are supposed to be lighter and you can mount the rear ride height adjuster on top of the spring.

After much debate I opted for the TCK setup over GC because of the factory quality of the front struts...props to GC though, who have kicked things up a notch by powdercoating their struts.

Can't go wrong with either setup.

[ChipM]

I love the idea of coilovers...and I don't mind spending more on them, even if I don't use them to their full advantage. So please, no comments that say "you don't need coilovers, save your money and buy regular springs/shocks", okay? ;-)

Thanks.

Hans


Ok. :rolleyes

[97Msedan]

I agree with Gene V, the rear adjusters for the GC coilovers were very hard to access.

If this is going to be a mainly street setup just be aware that the more aggressive setups not only ride rough, but pop, squeak and rattle all over the place. The combo of the lightweight flywheel and race coilovers really made my car sound like a piece of junk.

[eurotekm3]

KW Variant 3 or H&R coilovers. :buttrock

[SG_M3]

KW Variant 3 or H&R coilovers. :buttrock

:lol

:rolleyes

[sunir]

:lol

:rolleyes

exactly....yipes :devillook

[Mad Dog 20/20]

What's this about the TCK lighter/expensive springs and "factory quality" struts?

Can somebody enlighten me?

TIA

[SG_M3]

TCK uses VVS springs which are lighter and more expensive than ERS springs. Weight savings is nothing to write home about. TCK has more barrel shapped rear springs, prevents coilbind on those running soft rates.

"factory quality"? i'd hope they have better than factory quality.

[nismo skyline]

i recently got some GC coilovers and there awesome, slightly stiffer than stock. yet it is still very streetable. highly recommend

[Max M3]

tc Kline here....

[Hans B]

I thought I would ask you guys for feedback on this writeup here:

http://www.dtmpower.net/forum/showthread.php?t=92091

"Remember, that Konis really only adjust rebound. This means at full stiff, Konis have too much rebound damping for most street springs, and this means that the wheels don't want to come back down to the ground after a bump. You get bad ride but you also get bad handling because bumps upset the chassis more than they should. In order to get the wheels down to the ground with that much rebound damping you need a very stiff spring... and the koni compression damping isn't enough to control a very stiff spring. And they ride poorly because you hit a bump and the wheel can't come down fast enough to absorb it, instead the whole chassis comes down which transmits force to the occupants.

Bilsteins, on the other hand have very strong compression damping. They work well with stiff springs. (think H&R race springs for example) They work ok with stock springs, but they end up riding stiffly, because they don't allow enough initial movement. They do, however, increase roll stability."

It seems that this writer would suggest that Koni D/A are the only way to go, although he doesn't say so explicitly.

Thanks,
Hans

[SG_M3]

I would say the complete opposite. Koni's, because of their adjustable dampening, will ride/handle better when paired with a stiff or soft spring. Also, the koni sa' does ramp up compression as rebound is added.

Koni DA's are a great shock. A DA front shock, and SA rear is a really good track combo that still sees street use. Though, for most, the sa's all around are more than enough.

[Deadeye]

:lol

:rolleyes
What is wrong with the KW v3??? I've had them on my last 2 cars and loved them...although I never track the car, they are just for looks ;)

[BealeAss]

TcKline hands down...

[Gene V]

"factory quality"? i'd hope they have better than factory quality.

TCK strut housings are manufactured by Koni (per Pete S.)...they are beautifull, as opposed to the slightly "homemade" look of the old GCs. Since both come with custom valved Konis inserts, bling was the deciding factor for me... :D

[Mad Dog 20/20]

TCK strut housings are manufactured by Koni (per Pete S.)...they are beautifull, as opposed to the slightly "homemade" look of the old GCs. Since both come with custom valved Konis inserts, bling was the deciding factor for me... :D

Nice. KW's are even prettier - all polished stainless steel. Real purdy.

I actually like the look of the GC housings - looks like some custom race shiz . . .
But given that I don't spend a lot of time lookin' at them, its not why i bought'em. :rolleyes

[SG_M3]

The GC's look "homemade" because of why? You can see the welds on the king pin? What to know why they are like that? You know why you can see all the welds and everything isn't neat and pretty?

GC offers many custom struts for different purposes. They don't have a one size fits all strut that is made by someone else, they custom make different housing for different geometries.

[Ralliart]

I went through a similar debate not too long ago. I ended up with the GC Track/School plus kit, not because I thought it was a better kit, but because I got it new in box for $1230.

The question is, am I happy with my purchase? Yes and No... My initial setup came with 450F/550R springs. The setup was a bit harsh on local streets but bearable. However, on Michigan's less than perfect highways the car didn't seem to settle well. It felt like I was rocking back and forth in my seat, and constantly bouncing up and down.... not fun. To remedy the problem I decided to switch to softer spring rates. Found some 6" GC-Eibach 375F/450R springs on the classifieds for $100 and snatched them up. I just switched to these springs tonight and have not had a chance to really get a feel for them due to a noise problem (I started another thread in this forum about it and would appreciate any help I can get). One strange thing about the new springs after install is my ride height. I have both of my height adjusters at max ride height and my car looks like this:
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wOTA2MTA0NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wOTA2MTA1NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wOTA2MTA2NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

Although they are the 6" springs, I really didn't expect it to be this low.

Getting back to the original topic of this thread.. GC vs TCK. I analyzed it on a component basis.

Struts: Koni's on both. However, TCK valves theirs to their specs and GC does it to theirs. Who does a better job, I'm not sure. It's a wash. (Edited for Maddog)

Front Strut housing/height adjuster: One looks better..... the other looks better..... bla bla bla. They both work the same, I considered it a wash.

Rear height adjuster: I do have a slight qualm with the GC height adjusters. The inner ring where the spring seats is a square shape with a chamfer (if you can picture that) and is mounted underneath the spring. This causes the rear springs to SNAP into place after setting the car down and driving. It seems to me a different shape and top mounted height adjuster would have been better, I believe the TCK kit offers this.

Springs: Supposedly the VVS springs are better than the eibachs... Not sure how much of a difference it makes. To me, a spring rate is a spring rate. As long as it stays the same over the life of the spring I'm happy. So, the difference in springs wasn't too big of a deal to me.

RSM's: I like how the GC's allow you to remove the struts without tearing out the trunk carpet (what a PITA!!). I haven't seen the TCK's so I can't comment on them. Otherwise they seem to be the same.

That about does it... Hope you enjoyed the ramblings. If you do get the GC kit, make sure you get the externally adjustable rear struts. They automatically come with the TCK's.

[Gene V]

The GC's look "homemade" because of why? You can see the welds on the king pin? What to know why they are like that? You know why you can see all the welds and everything isn't neat and pretty?

GC offers many custom struts for different purposes. They don't have a one size fits all strut that is made by someone else, they custom make different housing for different geometries.

GCs the best, we know that already... :redspot...but some opt for other than GC, for various reasons... :)

[CarbonBlkE36]

ralliart. ur car sits really well.

i've had the H&R coils for 3 years now. and ive been happy w/ them. i don't ever plan to race around in a parking lot or on a track, i do occasional spirited street driving, mountain driving. and its been there for me quite fine. but i also did the sways before the c/os

[Ralliart]

ralliart. ur car sits really well.


Thanks, I think the rear is a bit lower than I want. It does look good slammed like that though. I don't even have my rear fenders rolled with 245/35's, no rubbing yet :buttrock

[Mad Dog 20/20]

Ralliart:

Spring rates are a personal thing. Some folks run 650# springs on the street and love it. While others want 275.
I'm running 450/525 and love it. Its a nice compromise for street/track use.

You prolly need 7" springs to raise the ride height because you are running soft springs. Unless you have aftermarket control arms, the minimum rear camber you can get at that ride height is about -2.8, which is too much for even track use.

The GC shortened Koni's are custom-valved to GC's specs.

The rear spring POP is annoying. This is pretty much eliminated with GC's shortened Koni's as droop is greatly reduced and they can't unseat as easily.

But, I DID have one unseat and POP back in while on the track last weekend. The sound scared the shit out of me. :eek: :D I was tossing the car back and forth (hard) through some esses when i heard this loud-ass POP. Took me a while to figure-out what it was. Never did it before on the track and never did it again.

[jvit27]

TCKline

11k miles so far on 300/400 rates. Crisp handling and comfortable ride. No noises, no popping, I could not be happier.

Jumping up to 400/500 soon though. Car is no longer in MA and the roads in FL are much better.

[Ralliart]

Ralliart:

Spring rates are a personal thing. Some folks run 650# springs on the street and love it. While others want 275.
I'm running 450/525 and love it. Its a nice compromise for street/track use.
If I was living anywhere in the south with better roads I would probably agree with you on that. They are a personal preference.



You prolly need 7" springs to raise the ride height because you are running soft springs. Unless you have aftermarket control arms, the minimum rear camber you can get at that ride height is about -2.8, which is too much for even track use.
I'm going to try my original front springs which are 150 mm and 77N/m. I just looked at the numbers on the springs I installed and they are 140 mm and 83 N/m, roughly 5.5 in and 473 lbs. That should help a lot.



The GC shortened Koni's are custom-valved to GC's specs.
Good to know.



The rear spring POP is annoying. This is pretty much eliminated with GC's shortened Koni's as droop is greatly reduced and they can't unseat as easily.

But, I DID have one unseat and POP back in while on the track last weekend. The sound scared the shit out of me. :eek: :D I was tossing the car back and forth (hard) through some esses when i heard this loud-ass POP. Took me a while to figure-out what it was. Never did it before on the track and never did it again.
It wasn't that big of an issue to me, but, it was something I noticed and thought that they could do better. I'm a mechanical engineer and work closely with quality, I tend to think a bit differently.

[Ralliart]

TCKline

11k miles so far on 300/400 rates. Crisp handling and comfortable ride. No noises, no popping, I could not be happier.

Jumping up to 400/500 soon though. Car is no longer in MA and the roads in FL are much better.

I should have listened to you and went with 350/450 TCK's and be done with things right now :( . Ohh well, hindsight is 20/20.

[jvit27]

I agree :D but hey what do I know!

[BealeAss]

My TcKline's are 400/500 spring rates, tckline camber plates,and their rear trailing bushing kit and i got the koni's set about a turn from firm and the car is ever so smooth even on bumpy roads

[SG_M3]

GCs the best, we know that already... :redspot...but some opt for other than GC, for various reasons... :)

Thats not my point to prove that GC's are better thank TCK. I don't believe that at all. I'm just explaining there is a reason the struts look like they do. Does TCK offer custom kingpin angles and kicked struts? No, cause they get their housing from koni.

Ralliart, you will need a 7" 450 rear springs. The 6" 450s too soft and will coilbind. Mind you frequent coilbinding can break the upper control arm. You will be limited in ride height though, the lowest will be around 12". If you want a 6" rear you will need to go to a 525 lb spring. I'm guessing the spring you have now is barrel shaped?

[M34sale]

TCK with 600/700 lbs springs..

With the shocks set to full soft, it fine on the street. With the RSM, The bolt is tack welded to the reinforcement plate. Installing it upside down, you can replace the RSM from underneath the car..

[Gene V]

Thats not my point to prove that GC's are better thank TCK. I don't believe that at all. I'm just explaining there is a reason the struts look like they do. Does TCK offer custom kingpin angles and kicked struts? No, cause they get their housing from koni.

I wasn't in the market for custom kingpin angles or kicked struts, so all things being equal I went what appeared to be the better contructed/finished article... :D

[gasior]

Im on the TCKline site, what coilovers are you all talking about... cause there are some really expensive ones. If I order this one...

TCKR True Match S/A Coilover System - With this kit, you can adjust rebound externally front and rear (front only on 318ti, Z3, and MZ3/coupe) plus have the added benefits of ride height adjustability (up to two inches). The True Match System includes our super trick VVS alloy springs. Unlike other coilover systems, our rebound adjusters and wide range of spring rates enable a true match to your driving needs and preferences. Encompassing both street comfort and track performance, this kit is unsurpassed in its class. The TCKR True Match Kit includes TCKR Rear Height Adjustors and specially formulated Buna rubber rear mounts. Rear mounts may be upgraded to TCKR monoball rear mounts. (Monoball mounts offer better shock control at the expense of some street comfort.)

TCKE36TM E36 All Incl. M True Match S/A Coilover Kit $2,302.00 $1,504.94

Is that the one yall are talking about? Any pics?

[jayhudson]

I recommend that you support those vendors that support Bimmerforums. Ground Control is a supporting vendor.

They support us.....I support them. I'm very happy with my GC race suspension and all the help they've given me.

Jay

[///AlpinePower]

I have KW V2s 400/450 - I drove around a bunch of setups before ordering them (HR, GC, TCK, spring/shock combos). The bottom line is that the exchange rate has made KWs too expensive for something off-the-shelf. Either TCK or GC will be a good setup built just for you, but it's nearly impossible to get phone time with GC...

Another option is to call RRT and have them build you a set of Ohlins - I plan on donating my KWs to my 325 and putting the Ohlins on my M3.

[jvit27]

YOUR 325? :devillook

[///AlpinePower]

YOUR 325? :devillook

dude, title = J.LO

by the way - YOUR SIG "///Whatever"? That's right :D

[hinzm3]

Another happy GC customer. I'm running 450/525 and its not bad at all on the street and fun at the track :D