BMW Shafted in C&D Comparison.

[Rakshas]

If you guys haven't already seen it, C&D did a comparison test of Midsize luxury sedans, which I believe was designed for BMW to lose. The 5 series placed 6th out of 8.

Infiniti M45
Acura Rl
Lexus GS430
Audi A6 4.2
Mercedes E350
BMW 530
Caddy STS V8
Jaguar S Type 4.2

The price cutoff (55,000) Is just under the 545's 56xxx Price tag. Also note that the main complaints were the engine(which was at a 110 hp deficit to the M45 and Audi) and the transmission, where the 545 offers a 6 speed manual.

Also not that they tested a 530, which starts at 46,000 dollars. They went and slapped 8,000 worth of options on to make it seem the same price as the other cars. Other cars has very few options such as : the Acura(no options) The Audi($3000) STS(3000) Infiniti(1000) Jaguar(4000) Lexus(4000) Mercedes(3000).

The BMW started out as the cheapest car in the test at 46,000 dollars, but they added 8000 dollars worth of options isntead of stretching the limit to include the 545. The top three(Infiniti, Acura, Lexus) start at 49-52,000 dollars.

Compare this to a similar test conducted by Automobile and you see that the BMW does much better, It's only failing being the much lamented active steering. It is within .1 seconds of the M45 in the 0-60 and within .1 seconds of the M45 in the 1/4 mile.

On top of that

They also knew that BMW is just months away from putting in the new 3.0l w/ 255hp. That would have at least put BMW's power on par with the Mercedes Benz. Its ridiculous that they would put a 225hp BMW against a bunch of 300hp + cars. Every other car in the field had a big price and power advantage over the 530i. The timing of the article, as well as the price limit, put BMW at a huge disadvantage.

And

All the cars that beat the 5 series, bar the E Class were newer than the 530i, in fact only the E Class (And even then the E350 is a new model) and S Type (Recently improved) were older than the 530i.

Later when they are doing the road test on the porsche 996 C4S, one of the comments goas along the lines of
"Wonderful Gearbox, Much better than any BMW".

Why the fuck are they dissing BMW in a review of a porsche?

It seems C&D has lost all ideas of journalistic integrity and has taken up a vendetta against BMW.

[Don Nguyen]

Eh, that's how it is. I was going by Spike TV and saw they had this car contest going on and somehow I was not surprised that the vette beat a F430, 911, and whatnot.

[LagunaSecaBlue]

have you ever noticed that if they give a good review of a car, that car always seems to have a few full page ads in the same edition?

it's mostly politics; i think that bmw's appeal to me has plumetted a little over the past few years (they seem to be upgrading luxury and engine power and weight and lowering handling, drivetrain, and "fun factor"). nevertheless, bmw is still putting out much more superior cars than companies like nissan/infinity, audi, mbz, etc etc etc...

i'll just stick to my e36 and e39's. in my eyes, there are no better cars out there... maybe i'll add an e46 one of these days.

[323I Junkie]

It seems C&D has lost all ideas of journalistic integrity and has taken up a vendetta against BMW.

Bud,

Any, and I mean any, true enthusiast can not honestly say that the new BMW's are throroughbreds

Did you ever stop to think that this was the way CD is fighting back

Did you ever think that maybe this is TRUE PATRONAGE

What we we have on this foru and many others is some pretty sever "Emporers New Cloths" In that people took one look at the ghastly new BMW's, then came around saying they arent that bad...read any Roundel or other BMW dedicated rag, and you will see they hate the looks and the weight

All the tech in the world is there, but the weight and looks are literlaly killing the breed

There are too many models, too little quality control, and BMW is dangeraously close to becoming the German Ford company..all things to every one and nothing that good

Let the rags berate, half the slaesman and all the techs I know personally ahte the newer cars

[RobH]

I was not surprised that the vette beat a F430, 911, and whatnot.

What marque manufactures the whatnot?

[BS05ZHP]

Bud,

Any, and I mean any, true enthusiast can not honestly say that the new BMW's are throroughbreds

Did you ever stop to think that this was the way CD is fighting back

Did you ever think that maybe this is TRUE PATRONAGE

What we we have on this foru and many others is some pretty sever "Emporers New Cloths" In that people took one look at the ghastly new BMW's, then came around saying they arent that bad...read any Roundel or other BMW dedicated rag, and you will see they hate the looks and the weight

All the tech in the world is there, but the weight and looks are literlaly killing the breed

There are too many models, too little quality control, and BMW is dangeraously close to becoming the German Ford company..all things to every one and nothing that good

Let the rags berate, half the slaesman and all the techs I know personally ahte the newer cars

Great post...this is 100% what's happening to the brand. BMW better hope MB/Audi quality doesn't skyrocket while Munich's trying to figure out what looks nice. The new cars do not have the simple beauty of all the previous generations.

[cosmos4life]

Great post...this is 100% what's happening to the brand. BMW better hope MB/Audi quality doesn't skyrocket while Munich's trying to figure out what looks nice. The new cars do not have the simple beauty of all the previous generations.
they are all smoothed out look the same, no more angular, aggressive looking sedans and coupes are being made. the new mustang is an exception but that was intentional

[brahtw8]

The BMW started out as the cheapest car in the test at 46,000 dollars, bbut they added 8000 dollars worth of options isntead of stretching the limit to include the 545. The top three(Infiniti, Acura, Lexus) start at 49-52,000 dollars.


The reality is that the 530i needs $8000 worth of options to have the same content that is standard in the Japanese sedans. They offer better value when it comes to features like navigation, heated seats, etc.

As far as C&D's bias, they have long worshipped BMW (and rightly so). Any bias that exists at C&D is pro-BMW, not anti-BMW. That BMW is slipping in comparison tests has a lot to do with the current styling trend and the problems that result from the introduction of complex technology such as idrive, Active Steering, etc.

[builder]

Sometimes you need to kick someone from behind to get them going

[vik]

It seems C&D has lost all ideas of journalistic integrity and has taken up a vendetta against BMW.

It seems that you are a BMW fanboy. Open your eyes and see reality as it is. BMWs do not lead the pack in any category anymore. The chassis and powertrain engineers are still among the best but they are being overrun by worthless stylists and acronym-happy product planners.

C&D gets accused of bias so often that it makes me laugh. Do you really think they give a rat's ass who wins? Do you imagine Csere and Bedard rubbing their hands together and saying, "Ah yes, the BMW lost. Our plan is working just as we foresaw it..." I would like a one-day pass to your world, because it sounds like a lot more fun than the rest of ours!


-vik

[tkavan01]

eh, according to a close personal friend who's looking at picking up a new car and has driven pretty much all of these cars, that list is pretty accurate

[Brent_Vino]

have you ever noticed that if they give a good review of a car, that car always seems to have a few full page ads in the same edition?

it's mostly politics; i think that bmw's appeal to me has plumetted a little over the past few years (they seem to be upgrading luxury and engine power and weight and lowering handling, drivetrain, and "fun factor"). nevertheless, bmw is still putting out much more superior cars than companies like nissan/infinity, audi, mbz, etc etc etc...

i'll just stick to my e36 and e39's. in my eyes, there are no better cars out there... maybe i'll add an e46 one of these days.

E36 to the DEATH! :buttrock

[323I Junkie]

eh, according to a close personal friend who's looking at picking up a new car and has driven pretty much all of these cars, that list is pretty accurate

I would not, and have not, bought a new one

I plan a late model e38 and e39 for the future

Why should you pay that much money for something that assualts your senses

[Elusive303]

The reality is that the 530i needs $8000 worth of options to have the same content that is standard in the Japanese sedans. They offer better value when it comes to features like navigation, heated seats, etc.

That's the reason BMW is loosing it's appeal, base price is already 46K, all you get is 225hp for a 4000lb sedan? 20k sports compacts come with more power than that.

Plus you need to spend thousands for every little option which is standard from other companys. BMW pricing has become ludacris, 56k for a 545 that has less standard items then cars that cost 35k, by the time it's optioned out to your liking it's mid 60's. I love the driving dynamics of bimmers but I'll be damn if I'm gonna pay 10-15k more for 5% better driving feel.

[makken]

funny, i remember not so long ago when BMW used to be on top of all the CD comparsions.

i don't think CD is overly bias, and if they are, its pro bmw.

[MaloventEvil]

It seems that you are a BMW fanboy. Open your eyes and see reality as it is. BMWs do not lead the pack in any category anymore. The chassis and powertrain engineers are still among the best but they are being overrun by worthless stylists and acronym-happy product planners.

C&D gets accused of bias so often that it makes me laugh. Do you really think they give a rat's ass who wins? Do you imagine Csere and Bedard rubbing their hands together and saying, "Ah yes, the BMW lost. Our plan is working just as we foresaw it..." I would like a one-day pass to your world, because it sounds like a lot more fun than the rest of ours!


-vik
you're going to eat those words when the m5 comes out.

[BS05ZHP]

you're going to eat those words when the m5 comes out.

I don't think that's relevent to this discussion as this was for lower-priced cars. (55K and lower)

Besides...500hp just means it won't look ugly for too long as it goes by me.

[auto_pilot]

On top of that

They also knew that BMW is just months away from putting in the new 3.0l w/ 255hp. That would have at least put BMW's power on par with the Mercedes Benz. Its rediculous that they would put a 225hp BMW against a bunch of 300hp + cars. Every other car in the field had a big price and power advantage over the 530i. The timing of the article, as well as the price limit, put BMW at a huge disadvantage.


They know this...that's why you'll see a follow up articl later this year that will show the 530 whooping some bootie...Well at least I hope so.

[SilverBeam]

its not a new car. C&D will never give a title to a car that didn't debut that year. Or if they do, it is a very rare occurance. They are bias sobs.

[vik]

you're going to eat those words when the m5 comes out.

Sadly, I don't think I'm going to. Sounds ridiculous to say it, but 500 hp just isn't all that impressive anymore. You can get a freakin' Chrysler with 425 hp! I'm sure the M5 chassis dynamics will be stellar, but 4000+ pounds plus umpteen electronic gewgaws plus totally ass-tastic looks are not my cup of tea.

I'd take an E39 M5 over an E60 M5, even if you were writing the checks. And I'd take an E36 M3 over both of those, if I could only have one car. Simplify and add lightness.


-vik

[vik]

its not a new car. C&D will never give a title to a car that didn't debut that year. Or if they do, it is a very rare occurance. They are bias sobs.

Have you considered that automotive design is progressing so quickly these days that newer cars are just better than older cars? Isn't this a more reasonable explanation than "they are bias sobs"?


-vik

[auto_pilot]

its not a new car. C&D will never give a title to a car that didn't debut that year. Or if they do, it is a very rare occurance. They are bias sobs.

Too true...Newer does not necessarily mean better :rolleyes

BTW...I read an article written in Automobile or CandD magazine talking about the 10 best car lists they put out...The writer reviewed each choice throughout the years...He concluded that he would have picked the 1995 BMW M3/2 for 4 years in a row if he could...

[builder]

500hp is still impressive and really unnecessary (but def fun)

[323I Junkie]

ass-tastic

-vik


:rofl:

new vocabulary as of now

[Der Spielführer]

Also not that they tested a 530, which starts at 46,000 dollars. They went and slapped 8,000 worth of options on to make it seem the same price as the other cars. Other cars has very few options such as : the Acura(no options)

How about, the RL comes with everything standard, that's why there are no "options." Turning headlights, navigation, xenons...you name it, it's standard.

[6i9]

C&D is crap my friend. I suggest you convert to EVO or CAR magazine. British car publications > American ad-whore publications

[Elusive303]

C&D is crap my friend. I suggest you convert to EVO or CAR magazine. British car publications > American ad-whore publications

The British are even more biased! If you want a real mag read GRM. Strickly enthusiast regardless of brand or year for that matter.

[Rakshas]

BMW must be doing something right, the new 7 series, arguably the most radical design, has already outsold the E38.

IMO, the new 750li and 5 series are better looking than the outgoing models, every time I compare my 98 E38 to the new 7 I wish I had the money to trade up.

If anything i wold say Mercedes is going to be the new ford, way too many models and the quality is downright bullshit. My uncles E55 has broken down more in 6 months than any of our bimmers.

Also, to everyone saying the are pro BMW, explain the porsche comment.

With automotive technology growing so quickly, why aren't you getting an E55 or an M45 over the E39? If newer means better.

Also, I prefer Automobile to most others, if I hadn't recieved the C&D subscription as a gift, I wouldn't have it.

[6i9]

The British are even more biased! If you want a real mag read GRM. Strickly enthusiast regardless of brand or year for that matter.

You're probably right, but at least you get a lot more content, and sick photography :thumbup:

[Don Nguyen]

What marque manufactures the whatnot?


I forget, hence the whatnot since it has been a few months since I saw it.

[brahtw8]

The British are even more biased!

You should see this month's issue of Classic and Sports Car. They compare an NSX automatic to a Ferrari 308 and call it a draw. :confused

[ekdemos]

I have driven every 5-series from e12 to e60. The most fun to drive off all time is the e28 M5. It is a 4-door race car. I wonder what would happen if after driving all those large, overweight, understearing, soft, sedans and drove my or anyother e28 M5. I would guarantee you they would all have smiles on their face. How about that awsome active-steering in the new e60. It is sooo good that M decided not to put it in the new M5 because it takes connectivity away from the driver.
Everyone has their own beliefs on how BMW should be run or what direction it is going in, but I believe a BMW should be a refined, more civilized, race/track car. Their main rival is not Merc but Porsche in almost all events.

[LagunaSecaBlue]

BMW must be doing something right, the new 7 series, arguably the most radical design, has already outsold the E38.

IMO, the new 750li and 5 series are better looking than the outgoing models, every time I compare my 98 E38 to the new 7 I wich I had the money to trade up.

If anything i wold say Mercedes is going to be the new ford, way too many models and the quality is downright bullshit. My uncles E55 has broken down more in 6 months than any of our bimmers.

Also, to everyone saying the are pro BMW, explain the porsche comment.

Wioth automotive technology growing so quickly, why aren't you getting an E55 or an M45 over the E39? If newer means better.

Also, I prefer Automobile to most others, if I hadn't recieved the C&D subscription as a gift, I wouldn't have it.

i agree with your mercedes comment... their quality has plummited drastically since chrystler bought them out. A few months ago I had the privilege (i guess) of driving around an sl 500 for a couple of weeks. It got a lot of looks, had a pretty good suspension layout (mostly because it was active) and had good power. however, the car didnt give that same feeling as my dad's old 92 500SEL. The same line of cars that once were engineering marvels and truly "cutting edge" are now just mediocre.

I think that companies like bmw are just playing the numbers game and care more about the bottom line than anything else. It's a shame that BMW has subcomed to this trend as well. Most people i talk to who don't own previous generation bmws always ask me why i havent upgraded to a newer bmw. when i tell them my reasoning and how i ACTUALLY like having an older car (because i feel that there simply isnt anything better out there) they give me a weird look and try to convince me that the new bmw's are so "hot."

i just feel there was so much more thought and design put into the older cars. the e30 and e36's were so ahead of their time; the cars stood out not only because of their technological advances, but engines, handling, weight, and pretty much every other aspect of the car. today, bmws stand out because of their name, power, and stupid shit like SMG, navigation, and idrive or whatever the hell it is.

cliff notes: newer isnt necessarily better, hopefully the next generation bmws will appeal more to the enthusiast/cult car crowd.

[count_schemula]

i agree with your mercedes comment... their quality has plummited drastically since chrystler bought them out.
Other way around. It's Daimler Chrysler. It's been an ok merger, really. Gave MB a gateway entry to the US. It's Ford and GM that are stinking it up.

Most of MBs problems seem to be electrical complexity issues. They still suck and can leave you stranded, but by most accounts, the engine/tranny stuff is still solid.


I think that companies like bmw are just playing the numbers game and care more about the bottom line than anything else. It's a shame that BMW has subcomed to this trend as well. Most people i talk to who don't own previous generation bmws always ask me why i havent upgraded to a newer bmw. when i tell them my reasoning and how i ACTUALLY like having an older car (because i feel that there simply isnt anything better out there) they give me a weird look and try to convince me that the new bmw's are so "hot."
That is the US buyers preference for style over substance. German car people are more into the "evolution" of a design. Not the same car at all, but look at say, the Taurus, and the BMW 5. The BMW 5 evolved and got more refined. The Taurus always seems like a clean sheet redesign, like there was nothing worth saving from the previous design.

[count_schemula]

I have driven every 5-series from e12 to e60. The most fun to drive off all time is the e28 M5. It is a 4-door race car.
W3rd. I never cared about cars until the 911. The E28 M5 was always my 2nd favorite car growing up. I still love those things.

[323I Junkie]

The lincoln towncar and cadillac seville have aslo both outsold the new e38 7 series

Doesnt make them better

The ford taurus has outsold them all

You just proved my point about the sellout factor

[LagunaSecaBlue]

Most of MBs problems seem to be electrical complexity issues. They still suck and can leave you stranded, but by most accounts, the engine/tranny stuff is still solid.


That is the US buyers preference for style over substance. German car people are more into the "evolution" of a design. Not the same car at all, but look at say, the Taurus, and the BMW 5. The BMW 5 evolved and got more refined. The Taurus always seems like a clean sheet redesign, like there was nothing worth saving from the previous design.


but you gotta admit, the cars mercedes is puting out today are a far cry from the quality of cars they put out 8 years ago.


the taurus comment is true :)... but the thing is, i've come to expect more from BMW. their new cars are great, but they just dont give me the same schoolboy feeling as the older generations :(

[Rakshas]

The lincoln towncar and cadillac seville have aslo both outsold the new e38 7 series

Doesnt make them better

The ford taurus has outsold them all

You just proved my point about the sellout factor

You are missing the point.
Compare the price point, a taurus is an economy car, the 7 series is a premium machine.
Also, the New 7 is the replacement to the E38 and thusly comparable, the taurus is just an economy car.

Also, What about seling a lot of cars makes a company a sellout? I'm sure Ferrari would love to sell 20,000 cars a year.

[Eddy@ApexRaceParts]

i didn't read people's responses yet, but i can already comment about the RL's lack of options. it doesn't need any the only ones you can get are bigger wheels and stupid gold logos. for 48 grand you get the nav, 300hp, bluetooth, xm with 1 year subcription, live traffic, onstart with subscription for that too, 5.1!!! audio (it blew my mind when i first heard it, makes my aftermarket stereo cry :( ) and a bunch of other features i never saw in anything near that price range. and i think everbody knows that bmw always has thousands and thousands of dollars in upgrades before you get the options you want, its a different business plan, the RL is for different people. we got the RL because it was a smart choice when you stop looking at the emblem on the hood and the driver doesn't even drive it the way you would a bmw :D

buy yeah that test is pretty gay how its just a grand shy of the 545, the way it is now, it has the smallest engine and that is a cheap way of comparing. they did the samething at the GM test drive even i went too. i mean everything has a bias and many times there is a conflict of interest thrown in there along with a bag of money, sooo you get what you get. i mean look at the media today and tell me its no messed up

[biggafigga]

What marque manufactures the whatnot?
I think it's one of the GM divisions. It's the sister car to the whatchamacallit.

[Dnz]

*cough* Still hope with the new m3 *cough*


Oh yeah, and im amused how people are disillusioned that bmw is trying to make 'profit' and thinks about the 'numbers'...

Its a business. It does what the market wants. If it made cars just as a hobby and for fun, then it might end up like rover.

[328iBursche]

funny, i remember not so long ago when BMW used to be on top of all the CD comparsions.

i don't think CD is overly bias, and if they are, its pro bmw.

WERD!

About time BMW gets some heat for the latest sub par cars. I-drive should be scrapped. C/D seems pretty unbiased to me.

[323I Junkie]

You are missing the point.
Compare the price point, a taurus is an economy car, the 7 series is a premium machine.
Also, the New 7 is the replacement to the E38 and thusly comparable, the taurus is just an economy car.

Also, What about seling a lot of cars makes a company a sellout? I'm sure Ferrari would love to sell 20,000 cars a year.


I read that Ferrari makes more money on merchandise and sponsors than they do on their lineup

I dont think they want to sell 20K cars a year, it would drive price and quality down

[vik]

Also, What about seling a lot of cars makes a company a sellout? I'm sure Ferrari would love to sell 20,000 cars a year.
In today's quarterly-results-driven, focus-group, Wal-Mart world, your opinion is in the majority. What could possibly be wrong with selling lots of cars? Higher sales mean that it was a better product, right?

Wrong. Higher sales mean more people liked it, and that's all.



I'm going to go on a little rant here. It used to be that good companies hired smart, dedicated people and kept them together for decades and trusted them to create a first-class product. A BMW was unmistakably a BMW because it was created by BMW guys, guys who were steeped in the BMW culture and passionate about what BMW stood for.

But there is no trust in the product development people anymore. And that's because the primary goal of companies these days has changed from making first-class products to maximizing revenue. So all your work is focus-groupped to death, and it's "ok, do this job, but if the focus groups don't like it then we'll throw it all away".

From personal experience as a product development guy, I can tell you that that ABSOLUTELY KILLS passion and motivation. Kills it DEAD. And so people jump from company to company. One day you're a BMW guy, next day you're working for Mercedes. Happens at every level, from CAD jockeys to CEOs.

And so there is no product development continuity and character. Products just sort of homogeneously merge together since their developers and the focus groups driving their development are all drawn from the same pool of people. What makes a BMW materially different from a Mercedes or an Audi anymore? Yes there are still differences but they are disappearing with each successive generation. Used to be that BMW would win every sport sedan comparo -- EVERY ONE -- because that was what BMW did best. But all those engineers and designers are now spreading out among M-B and VW and Opel and whoever else, and there's not much that you can point to anymore as a definable BMW trait.

I once read this quote on Ferrari's philosophy back in the '60s: "Other manufacturers race so they can sell cars. Ferrari sells cars so they can race." Point being, when you do something you're passionate about, you can make something special and lasting. When you do something because you want to make money-- well, if you're smart you probably will make money. But that's all you'll make.

And that's what makes a company a sellout. End rant.


-vik

----------------------------
Cliff notes: Bad things happen when you define a company by sales instead of soul. Sure, BMW sales are great. But BMW soul is almost gone.

[brahtw8]

While I agree and have posted previously on the problems with BMW's current direction, a bit of historical perspective is in order.

The 2002 made BMW in the US and elsewhere. It was THE sports sedan. When production ended with the 1976 MY, the 2002 faithful were deeply saddened. When the E21 came out, the 2002 faithful cried foul at the extra weight, the luxury features, the loss of feel and spirit of the 2002, etc.

When the E30 came out, the E21 folks said the same thing. When the E36 came out, the E30 folks said the same thing. This has continued for every generation of BMW since.

I don't mean to suggest that the current styling and gadgetry are not a significant departure from BMW's essence, only to put it in context.

[vik]

I don't mean to indict BMW solely. The industry as a whole has gone in this direction, and I'm saddened by it. For the record I don't believe that BMW is selling out. But I do believe that they have lost the path, and they are using the strong sales figures to justify not finding it again.


I don't mean to suggest that the current styling and gadgetry are not a significant departure from BMW's essence, only to put it in context.
I do understand the context. I'm well aware that feature creep has been affecting BMWs for many generations now; that's the law of the jungle and I wouldn't expect anything different.

But I think we'd both agree that feature creep has turned into feature avalanche in the last generation. E21 to E46 is not much smaller a jump than E46 to E90, gewgaw-wise.


-vik

[sachin528]

How about, the RL comes with everything standard, that's why there are no "options." Turning headlights, navigation, xenons...you name it, it's standard.

Hondas/Acuras have no options - well that is not entirely true. Nav system is 2k option and the MDX has a touring package. But unlike most companies, HOnda manufactures cars one way, and the only choice is color. If you want anything else, they have dealer installed accessories. Keeps costs down and quality up.


its not a new car. C&D will never give a title to a car that didn't debut that year. Or if they do, it is a very rare occurance. They are bias sobs. How do explain the E36 M winning all but one comparision through its life. The final comparo was against the B5 S4 and the E36 lost to that. Won every other comparision it was in.

British car magazines are partial to British cars even though all major marques, including TVR, have been bought out by foreign companies.

I like Road and Track/Autoweek. Automobile sold out a long time ago.

[EThirD]

I don't really understand this thread. Are you really offended by a magazine test because they didn't put a BMW first? Don't be blinded by the roundel. A BMW is not always the best car.

[maxse01]

BMW peaked in 2001...every single car they made was awesome IMO. Granted, i do not hate the new BMW's...but i would take ANY BMW from 2001 and love it. :D

[323I Junkie]

BMW peaked in 2001...every single car they made was awesome IMO. Granted, i do not hate the new BMW's...but i would take ANY BMW from 2001 and love it. :D


ON a huge generalization, I agree with you

[maxse01]

ON a huge generalization, I agree with you


well every model was hot in 01. I would have loved to have an e38 750il, e39 m5, e46 m3, m roadster and X5 4.6is. :eek:

[AtlanticVortex]

While I agree and have posted previously on the problems with BMW's current direction, a bit of historical perspective is in order.

The 2002 made BMW in the US and elsewhere. It was THE sports sedan. When production ended with the 1976 MY, the 2002 faithful were deeply saddened. When the E21 came out, the 2002 faithful cried foul at the extra weight, the luxury features, the loss of feel and spirit of the 2002, etc.

When the E30 came out, the E21 folks said the same thing. When the E36 came out, the E30 folks said the same thing. This has continued for every generation of BMW since.

I don't mean to suggest that the current styling and gadgetry are not a significant departure from BMW's essence, only to put it in context.They might complain, but was the jump from the e36 to the e46 anything like this next jump? I remember seeing the e46 for the first time and falling in love with the fresh looks of the car, the new one doesn't do that for me or the majority of the members here. Overall, the new 3 is a good car. Compared to how the e36 or e46 were, the new e90 or any new BMW doesn't compare (with the exception of the newest 7, finally a step in the right direction)...

[Rakshas]

I don't really understand this thread. Are you really offended by a magazine test because they didn't put a BMW first? Don't be blinded by the roundel. A BMW is not always the best car.

I'm offended because the test was setup in a way that is incredibly unfair to BMW. Had they tested a 545 and it still lost, I coudl accept that, but the way it was it was an unfair setup.

[LeftCoastBias]

Bud,

Any, and I mean any, true enthusiast can not honestly say that the new BMW's are throroughbreds

Did you ever stop to think that this was the way CD is fighting back

Did you ever think that maybe this is TRUE PATRONAGE

What we we have on this foru and many others is some pretty sever "Emporers New Cloths" In that people took one look at the ghastly new BMW's, then came around saying they arent that bad...read any Roundel or other BMW dedicated rag, and you will see they hate the looks and the weight

All the tech in the world is there, but the weight and looks are literlaly killing the breed

There are too many models, too little quality control, and BMW is dangeraously close to becoming the German Ford company..all things to every one and nothing that good

Let the rags berate, half the slaesman and all the techs I know personally ahte the newer cars
abe speaks the truth!!!

oh... and this thread was unfortunantly HORRENDOUS to read... we might want to ask kevlar to upgrade to a "spell check" version of vbulletin :shifty

[brahtw8]

They might complain, but was the jump from the e36 to the e46 anything like this next jump? I remember seeing the e46 for the first time and falling in love with the fresh looks of the car, the new one doesn't do that for me or the majority of the members here. Overall, the new 3 is a good car. Compared to how the e36 or e46 were, the new e90 or any new BMW doesn't compare (with the exception of the newest 7, finally a step in the right direction)...

The E36 to E46 was far more evolutionary, less revolutionary. But look at the jump from E30 to E36 or from 2002 to 320i . . .

[Rakshas]

abe speaks the truth!!!

oh... and this thread was unfortunantly HORRENDOUS to read... we might want to ask kevlar to upgrade to a "spell check" version of vbulletin :shifty

Sorry about that, I went back and fixed the errors, I really gotta start proofreading these before I post them.

[sachin528]

I'm offended because the test was setup in a way that is incredibly unfair to BMW. Had they tested a 545 and it still lost, I coudl accept that, but the way it was it was an unfair setup.

someone is always going to pissed at the results. If the price cap was increased to include the 545i, some others would have complained that some new competitors were not included.

If you want to read a rag that always places BMW first read Bimmer.

There is always a bias, and the marque of your choice, in this case BMW, is not always going to win. For the most part, C/D has been consistant unlike Motor Trend that simply picks whats new.

[Sterculus]

I thought it was a bit unfair as well that they used a 530i then complained constantly about it being underpowered. :nono

A 545i would have been a much more comparable car, you can't honestly expect a BMW with 150hp less than the competitors to keep up, so why even include it in that kind of competition?

[sachin528]

I thought it was a bit unfair as well that they used a 530i then complained constantly about it being underpowered. :nono

A 545i would have been a much more comparable car, you can't honestly expect a BMW with 150hp less than the competitors to keep up, so why even include it in that kind of competition?

There was a price cap. They cannot just include the 545i, just because - that would be favoritism from the start for the BMW. Oh the BMW didn't meet our price cap, but we had to include it anyway.

If they did not include the 530i because it was underpowered and and said that a new six was coming, people would have griped that BMW was not included.

I really don't understand the hatred to C/D. Most people I know don't go by a magazine compro. They test everything in the field or by personal preference.

If they are enthusiasts like us, a compro means nothing.

So why is everyone up in arms? Its a compro in a rag. let it go.

[Sterculus]

There was a price cap. They cannot just include the 545i, just because - that would be favoritism from the start for the BMW.
True, but wasn't the price cap 55k vs a starting price of 56k for the 545i?

Anyways, the point I was attempting to make is that in the real world, people considering the other cars in the comparison would almost certainly consider the 545i as the competitor from BMW, because (apart from the price) it is more similar to the other cars.

[biggafigga]

True, but wasn't the price cap 55k vs a starting price of 56k for the 545i?

Anyways, the point I was attempting to make is that in the real world, people considering the other cars in the comparison would almost certainly consider the 545i as the competitor from BMW, because (apart from the price) it is more similar to the other cars.
The price cap was based on ending price with options as tested, not starting price, correct? I'm sure the 545 starts at 56k, but we all know the price as tested would have been much higher.

[brahtw8]

So why is everyone up in arms? Its a compro in a rag. let it go.

People can never let it go. About a year ago, Car and Driver complained about torque steer and basically said that the TL would have been their #1 in some comparo if it was not FWD. There is still resentment and a belief that they have BMW bias on the TL forum. It makes me laugh.

That is what I find so amusing about car forums. A lot of them are very similar despite the inability of their membership to communicate . . .

[brahtw8]

The price cap was based on ending price with options as tested, not starting price, correct? I'm sure the 545 starts at 56k, but we all know the price as tested would have been much higher.

Exactly. Anyone who has ever priced a new German car with the options they desire is in for a substantial increase over MSRP. The 545i starts at $56k, but good luck finding one without options to hit $60k, and if you want all of the goodies you are going to see $65k easy.

BMW can't win the car argument against the Japanese on value. To legitimately prefer the BMW you need to go beyond the level of the content you get for the price and speak of emotion and feel and subjective, visceral notions. Otherwise, it is a no-brainer to take a TL that outdoes a 530i in most objective categories for $20k less or a G35 that is a damn nice 3-series option for $5-10k less than the bimmer. You have to want a car that drives and feels like a BMW, even if that can't be quantified or graphed . . .