Decision to make, input please.

[nikocb]

Well guys, iv been thinking about going FI for about 6 months now (1997 M3, M5 clutch, suspension, etc)..searching, comparing, and looking at the many different routes now offered in BMW tuning. Im trying to decide between going TT turbo kit offered by Nick G or going the SC'd route (not really decided on which one). Now i know this topic comes up all the time and everyone says it is a matter of what I want out of the car, want to pay, etc. But I want an honest opinion...Im really leaning towards the TT kit as it is a very complete kit, good numbers, and a reliable tuner in Nick. This could be also directed towards Boris, as i know he went from the AA SC kit to the TT kit, what are your impressions, compairsons? Just looking for overall thoughts/opinions.

[DakarDave]

IMHO, the answer is pretty clear: go the turbo route...

The only other technology *I* would consider would be (a still to be released) twin screw kit... The only caveat is you can't buy a twin-screw kit at the moment...

-Dave

[nikocb]

Alright..

Dave I know you went from SC to turbo on your Z3..how does it compare? Would it be smarter to just take my car up to ICS and have them work their magic (though im sure price would be a little bit more expensive than just buying the TT kit and installing it myself/mechanic)..thoughts?

[ADVANT123]

Depends on what your looking for. I know some people who are perfectly happy with their 6-7 psi CF cars. Not everyone is looking for an ICS torque monster. A lot of people use these cars everyday and are just looking for a little more top end(which the CF S/C gives you). If you decide to go turbo, I would recommend Technique Tuning, its a much better value than AA or ICS can offer you. I got a ride in two of ICS's mild monsters and the cars were out of this world fast, but not something I see myself being able to afford (major cash for one of those setups) or being practical for a TRUE everyday driver. I believe Technique Tuning's soon to be released stage II kit pushing more than 400whp will be more than enough for a lot of drivers on this board while still maintaining its status as "the best bang for the buck"

[BlownM3]

I have a Stage 1 RMS kit puting out 312 RWHP. I thought that was good considering it is a five year old kit with the metal intake pipes. Osh in fact said it was one of the first 10 kits they made. The only turbo back then was a 15k turbo from AA that had to be installed by them. I would not have gone the s/c route if the TT kit was available. In fact I would rather sell my kit and go turbo instead of putting the aftercooler on my car. Go turbo you won't be dissapointed, I promise. The s/c is fast but the turbo will seem even faster, even when compared hp for hp.

[nikocb]

Thanks guys, great opinions!

ADVANT123: That is what im leaning to also, i know ICS is awesome and id love to get my car up to them, and the daily driver thing isnt really a big issue as i have another car (89 jetta, haha) to take me around but at this point, the TT kit's power is more than enough for me, and anything more expensive than that could be too much...

BlownM3: Thanks for the input too, thats what im feeling as well. I had a 1992 Corrado VR6 about 3 years ago, and i supercharged it. While it was awesome and fast, i always wished i went the turbo route and I fear the same thing happening to me if id go that way with my M3...

[DakarDave]

Alright..

Dave I know you went from SC to turbo on your Z3..how does it compare? Would it be smarter to just take my car up to ICS and have them work their magic (though im sure price would be a little bit more expensive than just buying the TT kit and installing it myself/mechanic)..thoughts?

I think the best thing for you to do is get yourself a ride in a SCed car. Then get yourself a ride in a turbo car. Make sure they are similar enough so you can get a honest feel for both technologies (a 8psi turbo + 8psi sc... or even a 8spi turbo vs a 11psi sc).

I honestly believe that when you compare the two, you'll see that there is no comparison...

Here's a dyno that shows the difference between my SCed (11psi setup) VS a 7.8psi turbo..... Keep in mind.. the SCer was on a 2.8l engine and the turbo is on a lower compression 3.2....

[M3Armand]

Nikocb, you have to ask yourself what you want out of the car...

If you want the exact throttle response as your stock car, but with more power, then supercharge. My dyno looks exactly the same as stock, but with higher values. In fact, the plot looks almost the the same. This was what I wanted. This is especially important if you autocross or take your car on a track.

If you want a "big bump" in power and want that "surge", then go turbo. I don't care what people say about sizing, etc., etc... there will always be turbo lag in any turbo car. My fiance has an Audi 1.8T. It has a relatively small turbo. The supposed "virtually no lag" advertised is terrible, in my opinion. In her car, I step on the gas, it thinks about it, then it goes faster. She has about 225 hp. You definitely feel that "surge" in torque. The plot, as DakaDave shows, shows a big "bump" in the middle. To me, this changes the "driving feel" of the car, whereas the supercharger plot does not. I got rid of my Eagle Talon AWD (2.0L Turbo with 245hp) because of this. Although the car was super fast, throttle feel really sucked.

I don't think getting a ride in anyone's supercharged car will help you decide since all you will be able to feel is the power - not the control. If you're happy with the way your car currently feels and want more, then go SC. If you want that "surge", then go turbo.

Hope it helps!

[///MDex]

I've never ridden in a built turbo car, but Armand communicatres rather well the driving charateristics of an SC'd BMW.

[nikocb]

Very good things to think about.

Dave, I see your point..the comparison in power is very easy to pick out vs the 2 and very pleasing.

Armand: I agree with you totally. My sister has a 2001 GTi 1.8t with mods, and the power is a little sluggish untill the turbo decides to totally go all out. I never thought about it the way you are telling it. What SC kit did you decide to go with?

[M3Armand]

Very good things to think about.

Dave, I see your point..the comparison in power is very easy to pick out vs the 2 and very pleasing.

Armand: I agree with you totally. My sister has a 2001 GTi 1.8t with mods, and the power is a little sluggish untill the turbo decides to totally go all out. I never thought about it the way you are telling it. What SC kit did you decide to go with?

I went with the AA over the RMS. Do a search under my name and you'll find my "decision factors". You'll always get more hp with turbos than SC's - but never the same throttle response (do you want somewhat "linear" throttle response or somewhat "exponential" throttle response). Feel free to e-mail me more questions if your search doesn't get you the answers you're looking for.

[GG///M3]

i'd say go turbo. :)

[GG///M3]

checkout powerplant motorsports, there doing a turbo kit for carnewbie pm him about more info. :D

[eurotekm3]

Im in the same boat as u. I decided to get the TT kit from Nick G. this spring for my 95 OBD-1. Then in the future I will upgrade to a Stg.2 TT kit.
But if money want and issue I would take it to ICS and build me a ///Monster. :buttrock

[///3oris]

Well guys, iv been thinking about going FI for about 6 months now (1997 M3, M5 clutch, suspension, etc)..searching, comparing, and looking at the many different routes now offered in BMW tuning. Im trying to decide between going TT turbo kit offered by Nick G or going the SC'd route (not really decided on which one). Now i know this topic comes up all the time and everyone says it is a matter of what I want out of the car, want to pay, etc. But I want an honest opinion...Im really leaning towards the TT kit as it is a very complete kit, good numbers, and a reliable tuner in Nick. This could be also directed towards Boris, as i know he went from the AA SC kit to the TT kit, what are your impressions, compairsons? Just looking for overall thoughts/opinions.

Well, if I were to go SC, it'd definitely have to be Vortech based, and I know to get the kind of performance out of it to keep up with my car the way she sits right now would take far more money with a Centrifugal SC. Once I go Stage II, it's not even a contest. There's no question the turbo is better then the AA SC kit (for me), and power wise, I'll try and dig up my old comparison of what I make with Turbo vs. Supercharger (on my car)--if Dave's example isn't enough.

Anyway, it all boils down to what you're looking for... if you want the cheapest way to get into FI and wish you went a different route... a centrifugal might be for you.... if you're serious about power and aren't just getting it for bling to impress the ricers (plenty of people were impressed by the shiny compressor, believe me) then get a supercharger.

Boris

[eurotekm3]

How much is WHP is TT Stg.2 kit going to produce?

Will Nick G. have a upgrade kit for the guys who already have the TT Stg.1? :redspot

[GG///M3]

hey Boris when ur going to dyno again? :)

[///3oris]

How much is WHP is TT Stg.2 kit going to produce?

Will Nick G. have a upgrade kit for the guys who already have the TT Stg.1? :redspot

Good question, Nick hasn't released any numbers to my knowlege... whatever it is, I'm sure I'll be happy since it'll be a lot more than I'm making now and not much more mula.


hey Boris when ur going to dyno again? :)

Good question... car has been sitting in the garage on jack stands--doing brake work, wheel bearing, etc (preparing for track).

Boris

[///3oris]

Alright, found it... good luck trying to read all of it, but the dyno's are as follows:

Red: My car w/Turbo
Navy: Paul 11psi Vortech SC (I don't know what software he's running in this particular run, but I know his current software is better, so ignore his plot)
Green: My car with AA SC
Blue: My car base run (cold air intake & exhaust)

Boris

[themadhatter]

Well guys, iv been thinking about going FI for about 6 months now (1997 M3, M5 clutch, suspension, etc)..searching, comparing, and looking at the many different routes now offered in BMW tuning. Im trying to decide between going TT turbo kit offered by Nick G or going the SC'd route (not really decided on which one). Now i know this topic comes up all the time and everyone says it is a matter of what I want out of the car, want to pay, etc. But I want an honest opinion...Im really leaning towards the TT kit as it is a very complete kit, good numbers, and a reliable tuner in Nick. This could be also directed towards Boris, as i know he went from the AA SC kit to the TT kit, what are your impressions, compairsons? Just looking for overall thoughts/opinions.
In May, depending on where you are in PA, I would have no problem taking you for a spin in my own 332is with a TT Stage II turbo. just say please. :D

I have an Apartment in Bethlehem - 18017.

[DefactoM6]

May it will be done? Is there something you're hiding, ron? :devillook :D that will be a fun car, dude :D. And definately go turbo, I don't care what the SC guys say, there's nothing like the feeling of a turbo, and if you're on a track, you never let your car go below 3,000 RPM, so the argument about having laggy turbo power is null and void...

[trthrrt489]

I don't know if this applies to all tunes, but with a stock compression ratio, picture your car and the way it drives now. Then mash the gas, wait a split second, then get sucked back in your seat. All the while hearing many different "whooshing", "chirping" and other sounds. Its really cool. I feel as though I made the right decision on a versatility standpoint. I can go smaller on turbine for more midrange, bigger, in theory, gets laggier but less backpressure and more top end. With a SC I know I would always wonder what it would be like with more power, or if I was going to spend the money, why not get the most power I could afford.
Thats just me.
However, I do have to be careful jumping from a stopped lane in traffic to one thats moving. 2nd gear is a killer! Also, 5th gear has so much load on the turbo that it is a blast to control the boost with small gas pedal adjustments when crusing on the highway.

[M3Armand]

and if you're on a track, you never let your car go below 3,000 RPM, so the argument about having laggy turbo power is null and void...

Sorry, I wholeheartedly disagree with this one... having driven many turbo cars on the track, there is still lag. While you're taking a long sweeping corner (as in Watkins Glen), when you twitch the gas for throttle control, is there turbo lag? That's a yes. This is true for Audi 1.8T, Eagle Talons, Evo's (major lag here), WRX (major lag here also), Porsche 944T (big time lag), Porsche 911 TT (too scared to try since it's not my car), Supra, RX7 (very little, but still there!). BUT, on the other hand, not that many people throttle steer at track events.

It's a fact to me that turbos will always get more power. I've proven to myself that SC's will always have better throttle control - it acts like a normal engine with bigger displacement. And I've driven many cars to come to this conclusion.

[nikocb]

In May, depending on where you are in PA, I would have no problem taking you for a spin in my own 332is with a TT Stage II turbo. just say please. :D

I have an Apartment in Bethlehem - 18017.

Alright Ron thanks, i will put you up to that offer for sure. I live about 30 mins from that address. Please :stickoutt

[themadhatter]

May it will be done? Is there something you're hiding, ron? :devillook :D that will be a fun car, dude :D. And definately go turbo, I don't care what the SC guys say, there's nothing like the feeling of a turbo, and if you're on a track, you never let your car go below 3,000 RPM, so the argument about having laggy turbo power is null and void...
hiding? not at all, I think half this forum knows about that already from my various postings on the board. where have you been man?! :D

-Ron

[DefactoM6]

hiding? not at all, I think half this forum knows about that already from my various postings on the board. where have you been man?! :D

-Ron

I didn't know it was going down this soon..how long will it be down...you're installing it yourself?

[themadhatter]

I didn't know it was going down this soon..how long will it be down...you're installing it yourself?
yeah man, been planning on doing FI on this car for a long time.

down time? it'll be done over a weekend's time if I decide not to send the head out for a refresh (only 63k on the motor). I figure ship the DME out on a Thursday and have it back early the following week.

Actual install time shouldn't take more then 2-3 lazy days of knuckle busting and goofing off at my parent's house (no garage at my apt :().

I should probably start a new thread on head work to learn more about it so I can make a more informed decision on that.

-Ron

[GG///M3]

yeah man, been planning on doing FI on this car for a long time.

down time? it'll be done over a weekend's time if I decide not to send the head out for a refresh (only 63k on the motor). I figure ship the DME out on a Thursday and have it back early the following week.

Actual install time shouldn't take more then 2-3 lazy days of knuckle busting and goofing off at my parent's house (no garage at my apt :().

I should probably start a new thread on head work to learn more about it so I can make a more informed decision on that.

-Ron

Yea head work is not a bad idea, i called up vacmotorsports about having my head redone on the s50 there prices are not to bad. Speak to Dave if you call. :)

[themadhatter]

I'll keep that in mind thanks, I have met Arman before as well. I still have my home work to do on this idea. :)