converting a 4.4 to a 4.6, 4.8, or even 5.0???

[bimmer540wsubs]

is it possible to convert my e39 4.4 liter to a bigger displacement??? ive heard about ppl turning them into 5.0's even, i also heard about an e34 owner doing a 4.0 to a 4.4 conversion, i desperately want to do it, please help!!!! :eyecrazy :eyecrazy :eyecrazy :eyecrazy :eyecrazy

[marinakorp]

is it possible to convert my e39 4.4 liter to a bigger displacement??? ive heard about ppl turning them into 5.0's even, i also heard about an e34 owner doing a 4.0 to a 4.4 conversion, i desperately want to do it, please help!!!! :eyecrazy :eyecrazy :eyecrazy :eyecrazy :eyecrazy


possible to get 4.8 (or more) out of the 4.4

bore and stroke the motor


how reliable do you want it to be?

[Phat Ham]

Does the s62 use a different block than the m62?

[bimmer540wsubs]

what is bore and stroke?? and what do you mean how reliable???? is there any way to link a faq???? how long does the process normally take??? thanks!!!

[Johnny540]

Well, obviously, the more you bore it out, the thinner the walls get and the more likely you're going to mess something up.

The 4.9 litre in the e39 M5 is just a 4.4 litre bored out with higher compression.

I think so, at least.

[bimmer540wsubs]

is it safe to bore out enough to be a 4.8 or 4.9 liter???? any faqs pls???

[jimmyz2]

It is not generally not a good idea to bore amd stroke an aluminium block.

[e32 lover]

sorry, quick unrelated question sort of, is the m62 the v8 used in the e39/38's, and the s62 the engine used in the e39 m5?

[MaloventEvil]

is it safe to bore out enough to be a 4.8 or 4.9 liter???? any faqs pls???
this will cost you an assload. it would probably be cheaper to sell your car and buy an m5.

[MaloventEvil]

faq is that you convert the engine to a stroker, which can often cost in excess of $10,000

[Phat Ham]

sorry, quick unrelated question sort of, is the m62 the v8 used in the e39/38's, and the s62 the engine used in the e39 m5?yes.

[Reaper]

e32 lover, the S62 is exclusive to the e39 M5. The m62 is for the others.

The increased displacment of the M5 is due to larger bores, and longer strokes. The power difference is due to too many things to list here.

[Alin10123]

You can always do a lot of mods and that will probably be cheaper and more reliable than boring out your engine.
Like guys before me above have said, boring an aluminum engine out isn't too good of an idea. If you decide to go with a physically bigger block. You will just be making your 540 really noseheavy. The noseweight will hurt your 5er in the corners since you are throwing off the front/rear weight distribution. There are some mods out there from Dinan that will give you a pretty nice HP gain for less than all of that $$ it would cost to bore out your current engine.

[mottati]

possible to get 4.8 (or more) out of the 4.4

bore and stroke the motor
how reliable do you want it to be?

The problem with boring these engines is the alusil lining of the cylinder walls. You'll loose this if you bore the block, then what? You could potentially sleeve the block, or find a shop who may be able to re-coat the cylinders. You'd be better off to find a wrecked x5 4.6 or 4.8 and just use that engine.
Mike

[jimmyz2]

You would be better off to go forced induction.I do not know of anyone (except Dinan's race car) that has turbo'd the 4.0/4.4L engine.So,Supercharge.Dinan or ESS for kits.

[ACFoltzer]

Are the internals required to bore and stroke the M62 available on the market or are they only package deals through a tuner such as Alpina? I was always made to believe that buying internals for newer BMW motors was not really an option.

[MaloventEvil]

You would be better off to go forced induction.I do not know of anyone (except Dinan's race car) that has turbo'd the 4.0/4.4L engine.So,Supercharge:Dinan or ESS for kits.
are you speaking of dinan's turbo world championchip 540? the one that was boosted an amazing.... 40... yes 40psi?


i want one! :D

[E34nication]

http://www.kindel.com/bmw/fast_fives.pdf

[Speedfreak]

There's a 5.0 for sale in the for sale section of Rondel. It has a sleeved engine. I forget the year.

[540is]

You cant just bore the Alusil engine, but you can steel-sleeve them.
5.0 is possible but usally to stay at 93 mm bore is recommmended.
(that would give a 4.9 with the M5 crank.)

also to use the 5.0 crank you need to machine either crank or block due to larger journals on the M5 crank.

[Lscman]

You cant just bore the Alusil engine, but you can steel-sleeve them.
5.0 is possible but usally to stay at 93 mm bore is recommmended.
(that would give a 4.9 with the M5 crank.)

also to use the 5.0 crank you need to machine either crank or block due to larger journals on the M5 crank.

The distance between cylinder walls on a 4.9L S62 is only 3mm & this requires a special 3 layer gasket and very stable deck surface. You can not sleeve a block with such clearances. Anyway, cylinder head sealing would be totally impossible, if sleeves were utilized as the dissimilar metals would cause too much movement. Sleeves have only been successfully used on the 4.4L motor with it's greater wall spacing....and even then, it is a compromise from OEM.

If you're thinking of boring and thinwall sleeving, the conservative 4.4L cylinder diameter will need to be maintained.

This is all just an impractical dream anyway. Increasing the displacement from 4.4L to 4.9L via long block transplant would add about 12% more power (320bhp), at best. This is assuming the induction and EFI mgmt could effectively feed the thing with optimal A/F mixture etc. This mod would cost you 75% of the car's retail value for this measily 30 HP gain. With increased displacement, countless other M62 engine restrictions would become apparent. These are the things that BMW addressed on the S62 powerplant.

If folks want to play these games, they need to buy a Chevy or Ford. You can reliably stroke and bore those motors to 500 HP for pennies. If you want a monster motor, you can literally buy a big bore race block and premium stroker forged crank with special rods for under $5K.

[mottati]

The distance between cylinder walls on a 4.9L S62 is only 3mm & this requires a special 3 layer gasket and very stable deck surface. You can not sleeve a block with such clearances. Anyway, cylinder head sealing would be totally impossible, if sleeves were utilized as the dissimilar metals would cause too much movement. Sleeves have only been successfully used on the 4.4L motor with it's greater wall spacing....and even then, it is a compromise from OEM.


Rick, have you ever seen any details on the Hartge (?sp) stroker engines. I believe they got around 5L from the M62, using some bizarre (to me at least) plate sandwiched between the head and block, to allow for a longer stroke. I couldn't believe that would work, but i'd seen write ups on them in the european bmw magazines.
I did also see that e34 with the 5L sleeved engine advertised in roundel, curious about that car.
Mike

[jimmyz2]

I am sure alot of mods can be had with the right amount of cash.I remember when I first heard about the 'German Tuners/Manufactures' and how much they charge. :(

[Skipper5]

are you speaking of dinan's turbo world championchip 540? the one that was boosted an amazing.... 40... yes 40psi?


i want one! :D

i love that car. theres a poster of it in my bathroom and i sit down everytime i go in there so i can look at it. its that cool!

[540is]

VAC motorsports, steeel-sleeves both M62 and S62, my sleeves will have 93mm bore when finished, that gives me 4.5 liters to play with (with OE crank)

[Lscman]

VAC motorsports, steeel-sleeves both M62 and S62, my sleeves will have 93mm bore when finished, that gives me 4.5 liters to play with (with OE crank)

I should have re-phrased my comment to say nobody can "properly" sleeve a BMW V8 to S62 bore diameter. A dry sleeve that's 1mm or less thick will be very unstable with varying temps. The sleeves can not be 1.5+mm thick or the sleeve bore holes would overlap. In addition, the S62 block assembly was cast with much thicker cylinder walls to provide adequate stability with the larger bore. The smaller bore M62 block bored to such a huge diameter that allows a 1mm thick sleeve for S62 pistons will be thin as paper. Here are some issues:

1) Cylinders will change shape (distort) with varying temperature.
2) A dry sleeve will not conduct heat well, so the cylinders will run hot.
3) Heat gasket sealing will not be reliable.
4) ring seal will not be good. Thin sleeves adversely impact ring seal, especially in forced induction applications.

This super-thin sleeve technology has been tried in many race motors. Guys running bored stroker motors do it all the time in the USA. Such a setup offers severe compromises in an attempt to maximize bore diameter. Serious racers do not follow this formula.

VAC motorsports is doing this work for you because you want it and you have cash. The setup will not be suitable for "real" performance applications & I'm sure they have weighed the fact that your vehicle is a non-competitive show car. Cylinder blowby will be excessive & this will pollute the oil and result in high crankcase pressures and power loss. I predict head gasket failure under moderate duty, even if they groove the head or block for an o-ring and use a custom gasket.

A reliable, strong supercharged motor will have thick, stable cylinders and conservative bore sizes that allow a sturdy gasket and stable deck. The huge bore S62 is marginal for supercharged applications and a hogged out M62 is just plain wrong. For normally-aspirated apps, the overbore sleeve M62 has "some" hope.

You have gained approximately 3% more displacement 4.39->4.5 and this will result in a tiny 3% power increase on a good day. This is assuming the rings can maintain seal. Be aware that a sleeved motor will NEVER maintain seal like the OEM non-sleeve sil-coated setup.

If you are determined to increase your displacement in a supercharged application, the best option is to stick with conservative alusil bore with no sleeve and stroke it.

[jimmyz2]

i love that car. theres a poster of it in my bathroom and i sit down everytime i go in there so i can look at it. its that cool!
I hope that does not include going #1. :nono :stickoutt

[540is]

I should have re-phrased my comment to say nobody can "properly" sleeve a BMW V8 to S62 bore diameter. A dry sleeve that's 1mm or less thick will be very unstable with varying temps. The sleeves can not be 1.5+mm thick or the sleeve bore holes would overlap. In addition, the S62 block assembly was cast with much thicker cylinder walls to provide adequate stability with the larger bore. The smaller bore M62 block bored to such a huge diameter that allows a 1mm thick sleeve for S62 pistons will be thin as paper. Here are some issues:

1) Cylinders will change shape (distort) with varying temperature.
2) A dry sleeve will not conduct heat well, so the cylinders will run hot.
3) Heat gasket sealing will not be reliable.
4) ring seal will not be good. Thin sleeves adversely impact ring seal, especially in forced induction applications.

This super-thin sleeve technology has been tried in many race motors. Guys running bored stroker motors do it all the time in the USA. Such a setup offers severe compromises in an attempt to maximize bore diameter. Serious racers do not follow this formula.

VAC motorsports is doing this work for you because you want it and you have cash. The setup will not be suitable for "real" performance applications & I'm sure they have weighed the fact that your vehicle is a non-competitive show car. Cylinder blowby will be excessive & this will pollute the oil and result in high crankcase pressures and power loss. I predict head gasket failure under moderate duty, even if they groove the head or block for an o-ring and use a custom gasket.

A reliable, strong supercharged motor will have thick, stable cylinders and conservative bore sizes that allow a sturdy gasket and stable deck. The huge bore S62 is marginal for supercharged applications and a hogged out M62 is just plain wrong. For normally-aspirated apps, the overbore sleeve M62 has "some" hope.

You have gained approximately 3% more displacement 4.39->4.5 and this will result in a tiny 3% power increase on a good day. This is assuming the rings can maintain seal. Be aware that a sleeved motor will NEVER maintain seal like the OEM non-sleeve sil-coated setup.

If you are determined to increase your displacement in a supercharged application, the best option is to stick with conservative alusil bore with no sleeve and stroke it.


Actually the S62 sleevings is done for someone else, don't know who.
but it was currently two! S62 blocks in the shop.

I cant really say whats right or wrong, I simply trust VAC on this matter.

The 93 mm bore is used by recommendation by Tony at VAC with his
knowledge of that I will have an initial power output of approx 750HP, at approx 1.5 bar of boost - According to VAC the sealing will be BETTER with the flanged sleeves Iam using than OE sealing, they have sleeved a number of V8-blocks for racing applications and the sleeves have never caused any issues (to my knowledge)

This is NOT my engine - but I surely WISHED it was :-) (VAC built)
http://540is.com/540is/540is.nsf/Files/vac1/$file/DSC02059 sm.jpg

[marinakorp]

tony sure builds a nice motor!

he built out a buddy of mine's E36 M3 ... putting down some serious HP - NA

the car is sick!

[jimmyz2]

Wow.That is one beautiful motor.Very nice.I am afraid to ask how much $$$$ for that engine/mods.Simply incredible and good luck. :buttrock

[540is]

Not really, some other lucky fellow :-) -

I'am discussing throttlebodies and velocity stacks with Tony right now.
(actually a complete replacement of my intake system), the alternative is to
use OE M5 parts based intake or even build one with two rows of S14 throttlebodies,
what I will end up don't now right now, depends on what the cost vs. benifits are on the different solutions.

[The Shadowchaser]

I want to make sure I am looking at this correctly, but can anyone confirm this?

-Looks like an M62TU Block & Lower Timing Case Cover
-M62 Non Vanos Cylinder Heads & Upper Timing Case Covers
-S14 Throttle Bodies
-Custom Velocity Stacks
-Custom Accessory Belt Assembly

Whats being driven on either lower side of the engine?

Thanks in advance.

[sirtiger]

this is all a pipe dream, but interesting anyway... wow... nice pic of the motor

[Lscman]

Actually the S62 sleevings is done for someone else, don't know who.
but it was currently two! S62 blocks in the shop.

I cant really say whats right or wrong, I simply trust VAC on this matter.

The 93 mm bore is used by recommendation by Tony at VAC with his
knowledge of that I will have an initial power output of approx 750HP, at approx 1.5 bar of boost - According to VAC the sealing will be BETTER with the flanged sleeves Iam using than OE sealing, they have sleeved a number of V8-blocks for racing applications and the sleeves have never caused any issues (to my knowledge)

This is NOT my engine - but I surely WISHED it was :-) (VAC built)
http://540is.com/540is/540is.nsf/Files/vac1/$file/DSC02059 sm.jpg

I would agree that flanged sleeves are better than non-flanged sleeves. Flanges would be required with such a thin sleeve design. However, a thinwall dry sleeve 1mm thick can not provide better sealing than alusil & no sleeve. Race motorcycles, race cars, BMW & Porsche engines ALL have no sleeves for a reason. Sealing can only be improved via better heat transfer and thicker non-sleeved bores. Nobody installs sleeves to improve sealing. Even super thick wet sleeves are more unstable than the OEM BMW solid block design. Anybody that claims that thin dry flanged sleeves offer better bore stability than coated is not being truthful. That said, it is encouraging to hear that somebody can restore the bores of a worn out M62 or S62 using sleeves.

[jimmyz2]

I always feeel reassured after I read Lscman's posts.I Hope I don't find a big ole curtain there some day. :D