O My God! 3 Tickets Last Nite!

[BKLYNM3]

After leaving a bar-lounge with a few friends i go home, taking the expressway..im goin about 65-67mph on 50mph zone.."woop woop pull over" . he doesn't clock me but says he was following me doin 78mph(bull)gives me a breatherlizer test..now im starting to @#$% my pants cause he says "you better hope nothin shows up cause your gettin locked up if it does". luckily im not a big drinker, between 10pm and 12pm i had 2 beers and a shot, i get pulled over at 2:15am, thats the first ticket. then a ticket for missing front license plate(don't have one, don't like the way it looks) last a ticket for absracted rear license plate(lightly tinted)that i bout at pepboys(what the!)
anyway i probabaly deserved all 3 but any suggestions on how to beat them?
how many points on license is 28mph over speed lmt, first offense?
95 M
BKLYN, NY
THANKS, LEO

[knomad]

>>>i probabaly deserved all 3 but any suggestions on how to beat them? <<<

Don't try to beat them. If you deserved them, then pay up.

And please don't drive after drinking.

[Beavis]

No! you didn't deserve any ticket. That cop didn't like you, or he would have just given you the speeding ticket, writing you up for no front plate and obstruted rear plate is typical of an overzelious cop. There are all kinds of cops out there some good some bad and some very bad, god help you should you have a run in with a maniac cop. First you should contest the tickets, get a book or two like "beat the cops" available at Amazon.com. Then put a front plate on the car and get a picture and see if you can get the local police station and have that ticket droped on the spot (some times you will just get a fixit ticket for no front plate), Remove the rear plate cover. Then go to court with or without a lawyer, if you evidence that you have corrected the plates and deny that you were going that fast you will likly get the charges reduced. Good luck and watch your rear veiw mirror.

[BKLYNM3]

-leo

[FatBoyM]

I don't know how it works in NY, but you may want to look into traffic school so you don't have a point on your record. That's probably easier then fighting on the first offense.
If you really want to fight, look in the yellow pages for a traffic lawyer- prices vary, but I know in SF, there's a woman who specializes in traffic law. In my experience, the lawyer didn't go to court to aruge the merits of my case. She had coffee with the judge in his chambers and got my ticket reduced to a non-point offense.

[C.Yang]

Ive had to deal with bastard cops before. The best thing you can do is act calm and reserved around the cop, so if you do contest the ticket, he won't remember you as well. The license plate tickets should just be fix it, with no points i believe. For the 28 MPH over, if you really want to, hire a lawyer and let him review it. They work pretty well I've heard.

[eurospeed]

Leo, don't pay any attention to the first reply. That cop was clearly being a big pain in the ass if he had the time to nitpick about useless details like your plates. This is why tax payers get so fed up with time and money that is wasted with cops focusing on completey extraneous issues. Definitely fight the speeding ticket, especially since it's your first and there was no clearly defined speed. Good luck!

[North Florida]

Overzealous ?

Bastards ?

Immature people often fail to recognize what effects drinking and driving have on our society. So, they project their ignorance onto those responsible for addressing such problems.

Do it ever occur to you (specifically Butthead, Yang and Iwannaspeed) that DUI enforcement is a highly complex and specialized skill that takes years to master. Honest citizens (this part, you may not be able to identify with) look up to those law enforcement officers who make it their speciality to train and focus their enforcment efforts on the drivers who drink and drive. Our community holds those type of officers in high regard and gives them respect.

After all, when was the last time one of your loved ones lost their life or limb due to an inconsiderate drunk on the road ? Unfortunately, your types will probably never change your minds until you too become the victim of such a tragedy.

As far as your characterization of extraneous issues, you come far from speaking for the rest of us taxpayers. (Just a guess here, but I'd bet you don't even know what a tax bill looks like !) From the description of the original author on this post, the focus was on driving behavior and DUI enforcement, not extraneous issues as you describe.

And finally to BKLYNM3, your a man for admitting the role you played in the encounter with the law. My guess is that you probably learned something from it. Now, move forward like the rest of us honest citizens, exercise your constitutional rights in the correct forum and hire a lawyer to beat those tickets in court. Good luck.

[Changster]

north florida... true true ... but what a lot of people do are categorize and label people ... some of them r saying all cops r mean in the fact that they give all these tickets that arent necessary ... ur categorizing drunk drivers to be like devils ... sure its a very bad thing but who is a drunk driver ? everyday civilians ... the doctor who was celebrating a successful surgery ... a lawyer whos celebrating a court ruling ... a pay raise .. etc ... i mean it sounds like leo wasnt exactly drunk ... he DRANK ... but then he waited ... not like he slammed beers then drove ... so the cop was a little strict and anal ... drinking and driving is bad ... thats all u can say ... no offense or anything ... people categorize things all too often

[North Florida]

Changster, apparently we agree ! ALL drunk drivers are devils (remember, those are your words, I'm just agreeing with you !) This includes any "everyday" civilian, myself included if I choose to drive drunk.

As far an BKLYNM3's characterization of the investigating cop, I read the cop was extremely reasonable.

One thing I'd say I've seen more of than most others, that is untrained and unreasonable cops. Nothing disgusts me more.

BKLYNM3 only received citations, one for the moving violation that constitued the reason for the stop (referred to as reasonable suspicion) and two others for equipment violations (which are easily remedied at little to no cost.) He WAS NOT arrested for drunk driving. Now, I'm not sure of how you might choose to characterize this officer's actions, by I might venture to say this officer was pretty damn reasonable in my book.

Obviously, the officer's investigation (based upon the description by the author) revealed exactly as BKLYNM3 described, was that he was not drunk, just "had been drinking." Good thing this officer was trained, experienced and reasonable for BKLYNM3's sake.

Lets hope the next time anyone of us has a drink or two, then drives (not drunk mind you), and then has the misfortune of getting caught committing a traffic violation, that we are fortunate enough to meet an investigating officer as well trained and reasonable as the one that stopped BKLYNM3.

You say strict and anal, I say experienced and reasonable. Once again, we agree !

[C.Yang]

North Florida, you are an ignorant moron. Obviously you don't know what you are talking about, and are a little too trusting of the "law". I also agree that drinking and driving is wrong, but how much is too much? 1 hour after your first drink?, 1 day?, 1 week? Our government has set a guidline as to exactly how much you can drink. most states are .08, some are .10 percent alcohol level, etc. Obviously BrooklynM3 was within the New York guidlines, because the cop commented maliciously "you better hope nothing comes up............" If he is .079, the cop cant do shit about it, except find stupid ass things like no front license plate cover to get on their power trip. DUI enforcement might be a highly complex and specialized skill, but if you are under the legal limit, you are not disobeying the law. You may be doing something morally wrong, but that is a very in depth topic. Obviously this cop was malicious in his dispersal of the ticket. I do not believe BrooklynM3 was going 78 and I do not believe that the cop really gave him the 78 MPH ticket to try and prevent him from speeding in the future, which is what speeding tickets are supposed to be for(you can argue that a latent function of speeding tickets is also used for fundraising). When the police punish people by judgement rather than the law, you start getting into racial profiling, police shootings, etc. So before you start trying to lecture people on how these cops are "godlike" creatures who have the ability to judget the content of ones character, and punish them accordingly, please think about what you are saying.

[eurospeed]

Originally posted by North Florida
Do it ever occur to you (specifically Butthead, Yang and Iwannaspeed) that DUI enforcement is a highly complex and specialized skill that takes years to master. Honest citizens (this part, you may not be able to identify with) look up to those law enforcement officers who make it their speciality to train and focus their enforcment efforts on the drivers who drink and drive. Our community holds those type of officers in high regard and gives them respect.

As far as your characterization of extraneous issues, you come far from speaking for the rest of us taxpayers. (Just a guess here, but I'd bet you don't even know what a tax bill looks like !) From the description of the original author on this post, the focus was on driving behavior and DUI enforcement, not extraneous issues as you describe.

While I'll try not to lower myself to your level of intellect, you have obviously missed the point of my reply. Where did it say in the original post that he was arrested for DUI? The way I read it was that he was tested, but came up negative (meaning not guilty) and received a speeding ticket instead. If not, I'm wrong, BFD. After that the cop decided to target absolutely extraneous items as the plate infractions. From your posts in the past, I believe I remember you are affiliated with law enforcement and can understand your frustrations, but you need to keep the personal attacks to yourself.

[North Florida]

It's always interesting to see when people offer advice on something they know little about but think they are well informed, whether it's on bimmerforums.com or elsewhere.

For example, if the states DUI limit is set at .08 and a target of investigation proves to be an .079 or anything lower, even an .02, Yang apparently gives the advice that "the cop can't do shit about it ..."

Good thing he's not a lawyer or someone who we look up to for advice on legal matters.

The limit set by the states is what is referred to as the point where of a presumption of intoxication can be inferred, usually as prima facia evidence. At or above the limit, a good investigator will still attempt to gather as much evidence as possible, but the prosecution is easier as the state's case has already established a "presumption" of intoxication under the prevailing law.

Below the state's limit, there lacks the automatic presumption of intoxication under the law, but that in no way is indicative that the driver is not DUI. It is now up to the investigating officer to conduct the inquiry to determine if the driver is "impaired" to the point that justifies an arrest. Sometimes yes and sometimes no. It takes an experienced and trained investigator to recognize the difference and make the correct judgement call.

Some people can have a BAL (blood alcohol level) of .02 an be extremely impaired beyond any capability to drive. While some people can have a BAL of .20 and still drive without being noticed by most others, but that doesn't mean that their reaction time is not severly diminished in an emergency situation.

So, you see Mr. Yang, your characterization of me, the law and your own personal values has been clearly brought to light in your response. Lets all just hope that your perception of what is acceptable to drink and drive does not cause you (or someone else) a hardship that will affect you for the rest of your life.

Police don't "punish" people, they just enforce the law (E). The law has to be established prior to any enforcement action, so the police are not responsible for enactment of the law (L). The Courts punish people (J). If you remember, back in school it was referred to as the Executive, Legislative and Judicial branchs of our government (or were you in DUI class for that American Government section of the book ?)

And as for your perception of me, let me explain one difference between you and me, the rest are obvious. Based upon my life's experiences, I don't trust the law nowhere near as much as you do, I've had too many run in's with the law to trust the law. Instead, I learn about the law and how to use it to represent my interests. (Maybe if you did too, the next time your subject to a DUI investigation, you'll have a fighting chance.)

Mr. Speed, thank you for explaining where we stand on levels of intellect, now I recognize we are not even. Maybe I did miss your point. I thought you wrote that the cop's actions of enforcing the law regarding obstructed plates and missing plates was a "completely extraneous issue."

Try to put yourself in the shoes of someone responsible for enforcement, and you would like to think your a pretty reasonable person when it comes to discretion. Then, you encounter someone who has a missing (required in NY) license plate. Well, anything could have happend to it. It could have been lost, stolen, damaged, anything. But in this case, the driver removed it because he thought he was different, he did not have to comply with the law, because, well whatever his reason was. (Are you still with me ?) Now, you find the driver has a related equipment violation on the other plate, it's obstructed from normal view. Maybe the driver did not know that such visual obstruction was a violation, or maybe it was one of those covers designed to prevent view from photo enforcement equipment, you just don't know. Now, at what point do you think a citation is justified ? (remember, I asked if you would put yourself in someone else's shoes for just a minute) When you find a third violation ? A fourth ? Or maybe you never reach the point where you feel a citation is justifed because he's driving an M3 ?

Can you imagine if you took your car to the BMW shop for repair of a front brake caliper (or anything) and when you picked it up, your mechanic said nothing about the white smoke coming from the exhaust ? Later, when you question your mechanic and he responded "I didn't focus on completely extraneous issues, I was focused on the brakes." I think this is kind of analageous. The white smoke is blatantly visible as are two plate violations. Both persons are supposed to be experienced professionals in their field and perform their job responsibilities to the best of their capability.

If the mechanic missed the white smoke (for any reason) you would call him an idiot. Only because you're more educated about cars than most others and you know such an observation should not have been missed and is not extraneous. If your like most others, you might not even noticed that the mechanic missed the white smoke. So if your more familiar with the law than most others, you recognize that enforcement of two blatant and visible plate violations is in order. Failure to enforce two violations under such circumstances would cause you to describe the officer as an idiot, characterizing him as he did not even notice the plate violations. Unless of course, you are unfamiliar with the law, then one might characterize the officer's actions as completely extraneous.

[C.Yang]

The inherent problem with law enforcement is it requires judgement. Par what you said, the officer needs to make an expert decision as to whether the driver is entoxicated or not. I do not approve of this power given to police officers, because I do not feel that they are unbias in giving their ultimate judgement. A police officer can site you for a DUI if you havent drinken in 6 months, if they perceive you to be drunk. Perception can be altered by emotion, person, etc. Laws are created to try to eliminate the bias of law enforcement, but apparently, as in this case, it wasn't. The 1 obstructed, and missing license plates are given on such bias that to receive one is almost always a result or an excuse to target something else. Let me give you a few examples. My father owns a ML320, I have an M3, and my brother has a integra type R. all three of us do not have front plates. My mom used to have a Nissan Pathfinder with tinted plate covers. My M3 nor my fathers ML320 has ever been pulled over for having no front plates. Yet my brothers type R has been pulled over numerous occasions for this same infraction. Is it just coinncidence? Statistics would say not. His car is typical of many of the targets of law enforcement, being kid racers, etc. Another example is in my mom's pathfinder. She had never been pulled over for tinted plates, and yet the one week I drove it, i was pulled over 3 times. Is this an unfair bias, yes it is. I feel that brooklyn M3 was pulled over for a similar bias in the police officers mind. It was the bias that the cop believed him to be intoxicated. The officer would not make that remark unless he believed it to be true. He used that bias in issuing the 2 license plate infractions. Until police officers give everyone tickets for license plate infractions, then they should give nobody them. This does not include some of the tickets issued at street racing busts because these tickets are attempted as a detterent.
Racial profiling is also another thing wrong with Law enforcement today. An example I can give is one of my friends. He is black, and was driving through west Palo Alto in a 76 buick skylark at 2 in the morning. If you don't know where west palo alto is, its the ritzy area in the Bay Area, where Stanford University is located. He was pulled over for expired tags. In a matter of 2 minutes, 6 police officers, including 1 police dog showed up. They patted my friend down, searched his car, etc but found nothing. Is this profiling? Very much so. If he was a 40 year old white man driving a mercedes, he would never have been searched for no reason like that. If you look at all the police shootings, they are always shooting blacks. 39 shots? Is that sound judgement? No. Apparently you are affiliated with law enforcement somehow, so I can see how you might dissapprove of what I am saying, but I believe it to be true. Until law enforcement officers can be unbias, which is not possible because they are human, we must rely on guidlines and laws to offer just actions.

[dbruce]

My take on this is that at one time or another, everyone has gotten behind the wheel when they shouldn't have.

The exception are people that do not drink at all (always the Designated driver).

While I would love to say I was perfect in never touching a car with a beer or two under my belt, that would impossible. Anyone who throws a parts probably has half the people leave slightly over the limit.

While I am sure many have never touched the wheel of a car with alcohole in them, they are rare. Most people are hypocrits when it comes to them taking a cab or letting someone else take the keys.

Note: I am usually the one who says we are staying until it is safe to drive.

Officers also refuse to pull over people just because they are over the limit. If that was all they wanted to do then they could park in front of any bar and arrest as many people as they like. Of course, if they did that we would not have bars anymore.

[eurospeed]

Originally posted by North Florida
Try to put yourself in the shoes of someone responsible for enforcement, and you would like to think your a pretty reasonable person when it comes to discretion. Then, you encounter someone who has a missing (required in NY) license plate. Well, anything could have happend to it. It could have been lost, stolen, damaged, anything. But in this case, the driver removed it because he thought he was different, he did not have to comply with the law, because, well whatever his reason was. (Are you still with me ?) Now, you find the driver has a related equipment violation on the other plate, it's obstructed from normal view. Maybe the driver did not know that such visual obstruction was a violation, or maybe it was one of those covers designed to prevent view from photo enforcement equipment, you just don't know. Now, at what point do you think a citation is justified ? (remember, I asked if you would put yourself in someone else's shoes for just a minute) When you find a third violation ? A fourth ? Or maybe you never reach the point where you feel a citation is justifed because he's driving an M3 ?

Can you imagine if you took your car to the BMW shop for repair of a front brake caliper (or anything) and when you picked it up, your mechanic said nothing about the white smoke coming from the exhaust ? Later, when you question your mechanic and he responded "I didn't focus on completely extraneous issues, I was focused on the brakes." I think this is kind of analageous. The white smoke is blatantly visible as are two plate violations. Both persons are supposed to be experienced professionals in their field and perform their job responsibilities to the best of their capability.

If the mechanic missed the white smoke (for any reason) you would call him an idiot. Only because you're more educated about cars than most others and you know such an observation should not have been missed and is not extraneous. If your like most others, you might not even noticed that the mechanic missed the white smoke. So if your more familiar with the law than most others, you recognize that enforcement of two blatant and visible plate violations is in order. Failure to enforce two violations under such circumstances would cause you to describe the officer as an idiot, characterizing him as he did not even notice the plate violations. Unless of course, you are unfamiliar with the law, then one might characterize the officer's actions as completely extraneous.

OK, I'll play along here. Here is how I arrived at the obvious answer that the cop was being a pain in the ass:

- initial comment (totally uncalled for) from the cop to Leo setting the overall tone with his judgemental attitude
- citing for the darker than usual plate cover even though it was at night
- going out of his way to walk around the vehicle to check for the front plate
- failure to investigate further - why didn't he bother to search the vehicle if Leo was such a scoff law? Does that mean this cop is an idiot since he might have missed the crack pipe on the front seat (sorry Leo, just using an example)? By your definition, yes.

Now, if I were to put myself in the cop's shoes, I would first refrain from comments aimed at scare tactics and presumed guilt. Once the suspect passes the sobriety test, then possibly hand out a ticket for speeding only (depending on the attitude of the driver and history), then hand out a warning for the rear plate cover and front plate, especially since he was never previously cited for any moving violation. Why not give the person a chance to correct the mistake?

[Black Majik]

hmm... this post is starting to turn into a flame war...
:(

[BKLYNM3]

North Florida- i totally understand what your saying, your bottom line..cop was doin his job! and made fair judgement. like i said "technically" i deserve all 3 fines, but on the other hand i didn't get pulled over for the plates, i got pulled over for speeding. now being that speeding is such a hefty fine the cop "could've let me go with a warning on the plates, which usually happens according to past experiences( and i was being extremely cooperative). i have some friends who are cops that gave me special shields and cards that are a privaledge to have, i showed the cop and he threw them back at me(prick) that has never happened, its usually respected with a warning.
my bottom line as well as eurospeed(i think) is that i ran into a prick and envious cop who had no probable cause for giving me a breathalizer.

-leo

[KilljoyM3]

It appears that North Florida has probably had some loss as a result of drunk driving. That as a result of this loss he is determined to defend the only people out there keeping the drunks off the road in hopes that others don't have the same pain as him.(?) With these being the only people out there that could have helped him avoid his loss he probably wants them to have as much power and range of reasons as possible to pull someone over in order to check to see if they are drunk.
On the other side of the coin, the people in this forum clearly care a great deal about their cars. Time and effort is spent to make these cars the best out there. As such things like a "fix" ticket are taken as a personal insult and perhaps they are. Since front plates are seen as ugly and the only purpose they serve is to allow easier targeting for radar and laser. Secondly, if everyone just goes along with a law nothing would ever change. You may draw your parrallels to white smoke, I draw a similar one to "Jim Crow" laws. Indeed these were laws on the books but were unjust. By the mobilization of the voting public these laws were overturned. You cite the three branches of government in your arguement, but neglected the balancing force of the people, who if they organize enough can alter the process. What these folks that were complaining about "fix" tickets was at the heart of the idea of this being a government by the people. All of us have a right to express our views on the issue without making it personal, and if those that don't like the law can put enough pressue on their representitives change will occur. Personally, I don't think the law is totally blind and unbias but like in all professions there are great people in it but sadly there are also some less noble people.

[jaramill]

Wow! I agree with Black Majik...this is turning into a flame thread....but nonetheless wanted to ask BklynM3 something.

I'm originally from New York City (Astoria, Queens) so I wanted to know where did you get pulled over?

I had a 1999 328is (leased brand new) and I got busted doing 81mph right when I crossed the Long Island/New York City border into NYC. So I'm on the Grand Central Parkway leaving Nassau County and entering the borough of Queens - NYC. I was just cruising out late at night since I couldn't sleep. Well as you know outside of NYC speed limit is 55mp. In NYC it's 50. So I was immediately over the 30mph limit.

When the cop pulled me over, he asked "What's the hurry?". I immediately and frankly said...."Nothing, just couldn't sleep so I decided to go cruising". Went back wrote up the ticket and marked me down as 80mph not 81. See if it were 81 I'd be immediately suspended. So he just "Be careful driving, you gotta nice car". Now I was mad but I was caught.

Point is not all the cops are bad, but being from NYC, the Highway 3 section of NYPD can be a real pain, as well as Long Island which are REALLY NOTORIOUS on drunk drivers (as they should be). Especially Nassau County cops.

So the cop just happened to be a prick and nitpick, but the potential DUI was scary. That's why in NY I take subways and cabs when I go out. No need to drive in The Big Apple.

Gio

[BKLYNM3]

i got the ticket on the staten expressway coming from bklyn.

-leo

[jaramill]

Well you can definitely get the first 2 fixed (I got an expired tag, and no front plate because that's how my car came when I bought it used so they were easy fix-it tickets). Then I got one for tinted windows (also fix it). As for the possible DUI, just be careful man.

Gio

[North Florida]

Speed,

Granted !

The initial comment could easily have been classified as unprofessional. I agree it should not have been said by the officer. One, it is unprofessional. Two, it serves no purpose in the evidence gathering process, if fact, it probably is conterproductive in this respect as it tends to create a barrier to rapport with most people. Even police officers need to develop rapport with suspects, if for no other reason than to serve their own purpose to gather evidence.

It seems that if for some reason this cop was predisposed to specialize in traffic enforcement, such as citing for an obstructed license plate cover, at night is when it tends to me most obstructed. In daylight, one can easily say the cover is not as obstructive and one's ability to see the plate clearly is not as diminished at night.

Walking around a car on a traffic stop for purposes of viewing the car, especially during a DUI investigative stop, is not even close to "going out of his way." This is a fundamental in DUI investigations. For example (and there are many of them), if there is recent damage on the front of the car, how can one expect to discover such without walking around the car. This sounds like an example of a DUI investigators doing a good job with his assignment.

Now, if you don't agree with the concept of DUI enforcement as a responsibility of someone in our society, then, that, is another discussion. But if someone is charged with the responsibility to enforce the DUI laws, and assuminng you agree that such a responsibility should be in existence, then wouldn't you want that person responsible for such tasks to be as competent as possible ?

Search: This is an issue I take particular interest in. Once again, I can only suggest that every citizen in the U.S. learn as much about the 4th Amendment as possible (that, by the way, is the guide for Search and Siezure for ALL police officers in ALL cities in America.) Nothing in the description of the fact scenario leads any reasonable person to establish or believe that probable cause exists for a search. This was a traffic stop that did not culminate into an arrest. So, under the circumstances, IF the officer had conducted a search, we would call him an idiot, and I would call him one who is violating anothers civil rights. The fact that NO search was conducted only lends to the same impression I earlier stated, this officer must have been an trained and experienced police officer, notwithstanding his unnecessary initial comments. I venture to say all of us at some time or another have said something we should not have, at least I know I have, even in a professional work environment.

Your other note, why not a warning ? I couldn't agree with you more. Why not ? We were not there. We do not know everything that occurred. We do not know what area of this officer's job he likes the most, therefore, he focuses his efforts on. Is it traffic, interdiction, violent crimes, street prostitution, or whatever it may be.

Officers assigned to patrol divisions are not directed what to develop interests in, it is developed on a personal level. If one dislikes traffic enforcement, then maybe little to no tickets are ever written. If one likes narcotics enforcement, then they constantly drive through the drug neighborhoods and arrest crack heads, for we all know there is plenty of that. Maybe one is disgusted with street prostitutes and focuses his efforts at that element of society. Point is, none of the above are required, as one officer may hate drug neighborhoods, or another may hate dealing with street prostitutes. And please don't ever think that a quota system is still in effect. The USSC ruled against that years ago.

Can you think of an area of law you might specialize in if you were a police officer. Not too different than if you were a BMW mechanic. If you were a BMW mechanic working for an advanced and progressive repair facility, such as a dealership, then you would be responsible for working on any workorder that is assigned to you. Kinda like the cops who has to answer any call that the radio gives him. But on your free time at work, you might specialize in installing turbo's on M3's, or restoration of 2002's, or whatever, it's up to you. Kinda the same for cops, one may just like traffic enforcement more than others. In this forum on bimmerforums.com, we tend to hear more about those cops who specialize in traffic enforcement, I guess because thats what interest us. I have never seen someone on this forum post about their arrest for trafficking or income tax evasion, both offenses arguably that have a large following of citizens who oppose enforcement of those laws on a philosophical level.

While one may oppose the idea of traffic enforcement or would like to think they and other BMW drivers should be exempt from it, it pains me to see people's ignorance of the society we live in by posting statements like "Beat the cops, with a baseball bat."

Yang writes: "I do not approve of this power given to police officers, becasue I do not feel that they are unbias in giving their ultimate judgement." I ask then, who do you suggest we empower in our society to take on such tasks ? ANSWER Please ?

Whoever you might suggest, BMW mechanics, grocery store clerks, computer programmers, or anyone else will also (just like police officers) fall subject to the same concerns you have already expressed, that they are being biased because they are human. Or, are you just oppossed to the very idea of enforcement of any kind in our society ?

We might suggest you learn a little more about the law if you keep experiencing the situations you describe. Try USC Title 42, Section 1983 (this may require a little work on your part, but if you become familiar with it, you will gain knowledge that will provide you with great recourse the next time a law enforcement causes you damages as you describe.)

As far as flame. I'd like to think this is great forum for expression. And no, I have never lost anyone or anything I know to drunk driving, but have seen enough of it in my life. We probably all have (through different mediums,) it's just the question of whether we want to accept that anyone of us could be a next victim of such a tradgedy. Some, think "It can't happen to me" and others like me, hope like hell it ain't gonna happen tonight to me, because I know it can.

I just feel this is America, land of the free, for the people and by the people (or something like that !) Hey, I was one of the first to suggest the idea to beat the ticket in court. I would like to think that I'm not the one trying to defend the only people out there keeping the drunks off the road. Rather, I'd like to think all of us are the ones keeping the drunks off the road by exercising good judgement, both alone and with friends. KillJoy is right, in that if we don't like or agree with a law (reference made to Jim Crow laws), the people are responsible for changing it. If you track the history of DUI laws and the change in the law influenced by The People, the law has constantly grown more restrictive.

I drive an M3 too. I love my car too. I don't think the point of this whole thread is about DUI enforcement. I think it's about learning new information about different topics that we hold in common as BMW enthusiasts. When someone posts info about viscosity comparisons of synthetic oil, I learn something. We are all subject to getting stopped by an untrained and unreasonable cop at some point (even me, lord knows I've had too many of those situations,) so how about if we exchange information and learn how to best deal with the situation, whether it has already happened or is going to happen. Remember, whether it's dealing with a mechanical problem with your M3 or dealing with a cop on the side of the road, Information Is Power.

For example, the more information you really know of how radar works, what drives officers who enforce traffic laws using radar, and the law regarding radar enforcement, the better chance you will have surviving an radar encounter or avoiding it alltogether.

BKLYNM3,

Culture sure is different in NY than Florida. Those cards you speak of (and I've seen them before) are considered a clear sign of corruption in the South, like in Florida. However, I recognize they are part of the norm in NY. Nevertheless, that doesn't make them correct. It still appears to me from your description of the facts, the officer was reasonable and prudent. Some public officials are, and I know many are not going to believe this, are, well, honest. And cards as you decscribe are an insult in the greatest form. Obviously not so much in NY and the like, but that doesn't mean this cop was not insulted. Hey, I would have asked him what he thought of the card even though he didn't recognize it's intended purpose.

I agree with your characterization that the cop made a fair "Judgement." However, I tend to disagree that you "desereve" all three citations. That is not a judgement for me to make, but I generally agree that one citation is usually sufficient, all things being equal. Again, challenge the ticket in court and lets us know the outcome. Good Luck.

[mr happy]

Hey Leo
I am from NYC too. the same thing happen to me, got caught doing 75 on a 50 mile zone on the belt parkway. 3 am in the morning. and the pig didn't even clock me, just said he was following me out an exit. the fine was 95 dollars, but i suggest you fight it. try to delay or keep rescheduling the day and hope the pig won't show and u win. if he does show and all olds are againest you just pleed guilty and say it is too expensive and maybe the judge will reduce your fine by half. it worked for me when i told them i going to skol and i don't have money.

[C.Yang]

Yang writes: "I do not approve of this power given to police officers, becasue I do not feel that they are unbias in giving their ultimate judgement." I ask then, who do you suggest we empower in our society to take on such tasks ? ANSWER Please ?

I do understand that we need police officers, and though some despise traffic enforcement, it is society that asks for it. The troubles come when the Laws that the officers are supposed to enfoce becomes vague. An example again would be the officers perception of a DUII. He doesn't have to have a definite blood alcohol level, only has to appear drunk to the officer. When perception is involved, thats where the officer's biases and perceptions, religion, and culture are allowed to assist in a judgement by the officer which is deemed lawful. I think much of culture is to blame for this, but that is why all the "mistake" shootings of unarmed people by police are generally done on black males. Culture pushes us to believe that blacks commit more crimes, and are more dangerous than other races. I propose a solution to be strict guidlines to all laws. Speeding is going any speed over the speed limit, fine everyone who speeds. Obstructed plates are illegal, all infractions shall be fined. The problem with this system is it takes away from what society views as "real crime". I understand it is very strenuous being a police officer, but if you do not try to be as unbias as possible, then you are not doing your job fairly.

[BKLYNM3]

-leo