Ship of Theseus M3 Debate

[dillondudem3]

I am here to ask a question and discuss insecurity that has been hanging over my head ever since I finished my E36 "M3" project.

I know there a lot of old heads on this forum who have been around here for awhile, so I am expecting to get some judgment from a majority of other bimmer owners, so let me get right into it:

THE PREMISE

Jan 2023: I bought a 1997 lux, 4-dr, grandpa spec, cosmos black auto USDM E36 M3. Was 19 at the time and it was my first RWD car. I knew the original owners and promised I would take good care of the car and work on an OEM+ resto + manual swap, and it was going to be my first project car so I was excited to get into learning how to wrench etc.

Jan 2023: I crash the car doing stupid 19 year old (I'm 21 so prob nothing has changed lol)

Since then I made a few friends who helped, taught and showed me how to E36 if you know what I mean. We have since swapped the following items into a 325i chassis that was repainted etc while everything was out:
-engine
-full interior, down to bare chassis
-front and rear subframes (suspension, brakes, contours
-engine harness and all accessories, ecu etc
-body harness front to back, and all of the electronics
-the HVAC and AC system system for sake (i now know that OBD1 cars are oval and OBD2 cars are rectangular ports through the firewall)
-surviving body parts (glass, trunk, hood, single undamaged door and front fenders) and trim (window trim, moldings, trim pieces etc)
-manual swapped with the 250g (yeah i know not rated for S52, just got a ZF 6 speed and all the custom components needed for a swap don't worry)
-replaced mirrors, sideskirts (cause lux's don't have twisties), front bumper, old M3 bumper from old car and any other wear item we saw while we were in there

The only parts that are from the 325i are the trans (which will soon be gone), the VIN/chassis and 3/4 of the doors.

I had the ability and resources to swap the VIN but decided against it cause, hyper illegal and I would have to cover up all the work that went into the swap, and a complete OBD1 to OBD2 chassis swap is pretty unique.


THE DEBATE:

I put an M3 trunk badge on the back.

I think the car deserves the badge cause one, i'll just flash the M3 title I still have. Two, the amount of work and passion that went into saving everything to keep it from just being another copart M3. Three, the M stripes look good on the fire orange II lol

But I kinda feel guilty, besides the VIN there is no way to tell. I always kinda feel self conscious about it, like i am poser, as stupid as that is to say out loud lol. I don't call it an M3 most of the time, I make an active effort to NOT call it an M3 actually. I like going to meets and shows and explaining all of the work that went into it, because the question I am asked the most is "Is it a real M3?". Again, as stupid as it is, I feel myself get defensive for no good reason.

So I guess my main question: does my car, with the M3 badge on the back, piss you guys off?

[pbonsalb]

I think you have an M3 for nearly all intents and purposes, but technically it is an M3 replica. I have an M3, but the engine is built from a 328i M52 block, the trans is from an E90 335i, and the differential is from an E32 750il, and many other parts are not stock so purists would say I don’t have an M3. I removed the M3 badges 15 years ago — I removed them from my E90 M3 and my F90 M5 as well.

My M3 has some rust so I am thinking about cutting and welding to repair it or just buying a rust free E36 chassis to swap my parts into. Mine is a 2 door but I know someone selling a 4 door M3 that is sort of tempting.

[AJLM34A]

My 1994 325i is an S52, E36 M3 brakes, subframes, and suspension swap car. The 325i was not stuck on the deck lid when I got the car, it was in a box of extras I got with the car. I put it on the deck lid with i upside down, 325!
I put the M3 side moldings on, but remove the M3 inserts and replaced them with BMW Motorsport International inserts.

[Hagasan41]

As you get older and hopefully wiser, you’ll learn to not worry about what others say. It sounds like you’re incredibly proud of the amount of time, effort, money and sacrifice you made to make the car your own. Deserving of an M3 badge or not, a cool build is a cool build.

Now, the only thing that pisses me off about your post is the lack of photos. Let’s see the Fire Orange E36 M3*. Sorry, you get the little asterisk next to the M3 cause you’re a poser! JK! For what it’s worth it’s fine by me.

Now let’s see some photos! There was a Fire Orange E36 on BAT not too long ago and from what I remember it looked good minus the wheel finish.

[propcar]

slap that M3 badge on!

If you look at it from a manufacturer's perspective they took a 'standard E36 chassis' and made all the necessary changes towards performance enhancement making it an M3. If you've done the same thing and then it deserves the badge. Purists may disagree but fundamentally if you're just wanting to have fun with the car and you're not competing at a 'concours level' event, then who cares... in the Porsche world they backdate 80's/90's 911 chassis to early 70's RSR or ST's and sink $100-200k in the process - so I think you're good.

Further more, I would value it the same as an M3 from an insurance perspective due to all the hard work you've put into it. Essentially it would take an M3 to replace your car so it should be valued the same.

[jeyjey]

In Ireland people will put an M3 badge on a 4-cylinder having changed nothing more than the front air-dam, side-skirts and mirrors. I'll admit I roll my eyes a bit at that, but hey, it's their car.

In your case, though, I would have no qualms about putting an M3 badge on it. As @propcar said, you've done pretty much exactly what BMW does to put their M3 badge on....

[dillondudem3]

725960725959725961725962
I had a feeling someone was going to ask that lol. And yes I know the EXACT BaT listing you are talking about. Before I even bought the M3 I wanted to make it that color because of that listing. I made the pictures of the first listing when it was first sold on BaT in like 2016 or something, and made those my desktop background pictures as motivation to finish the build.

- - - Updated - - -

I have already talked to my insurance provider and my agent said to list it for full coverage, and in a crash, that would be the place to make my case that the OEM parts added value to the car and I should get reimbursed for about the correct amount of value put into the car, which is about 18.5k after the 6 speed swap. Especially since I have full documentation of every step of the build.

[dillondudem3]

In Ireland people will put an M3 badge on a 4-cylinder having changed nothing more than the front air-dam, side-skirts and mirrors. I'll admit I roll my eyes a bit at that, but hey, it's their car.

In your case, though, I would have no qualms about putting an M3 badge on it. As @propcar said, you've done pretty much exactly what BMW does to put their M3 badge on....

As a European, I am surprised you aren't straight up calling all USDM E36 S52 M3's fake XD. But for real though, thats another point, the E36 M3 is the least modified M3 from non-M to begin with (no widebody etc.). The only difference in chassis is a single letter on the VIN.

[QtheGenius]

put a 318i badge on it.

[BleedsBlue]

I love this thread (especially the title). Our stories are also pretty similar, although I sold my first E36 M3 (after getting it fixed following a 19 yr old Brent stupid crash, no less!) and then bought a 328 chassis 14 years later with all the M3 stuff swapped in by the seller - totally bought, not built. The car still has the 328 badge on the trunk, but I'm more a fan of debadging in general so I will likely go that way.

I've struggled with the same ethics of what to call my car, and agree that "M3 replica" is perhaps the most truthful. As said above, though, what you've done is not measurably different from how BMW built them; and you deserve to badge it what you want regardless of public opinion.

The Fire Orange looks incredible. Cheers!

[E85STI]

put a 318i badge on it.

Personally I would put a VTEC badge on it but whatever. ;)

Like others have said. It is your vehicle to do with it as you please.

[Hagasan41]

Personally I would put a VTEC badge on it but whatever. ;)

Like others have said. It is your vehicle to do with it as you please.

Hell yeah man right next to the eBay Type R or Mugen badge! Ahh those were the days… lol

[dillondudem3]

I wonder if anyone sells a VANOS badge

[Nova1]

I wouldn’t put an M3 badge on it if it were my car.

[jeyjey]

GREAT colour!

[E36 Em Tree]

Your Car. Do whatever you want.

When you get older you'll learn that too. I personally wouldn't do it but you could just slap a regular M badge or just say the m3 badge pays tribute to your last car you lost. Your Car though so [emoji1745]

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[blckstrm]

I think you'll find we're adults here (lol, no comment about FB) and recognize that what you do with your car doesn't impact us.

Once you start swapping motors it just becomes pointless trying to care too much.

Having just S54 swapped mine, I've thought about this a bit since there's nothing external that reveals what's under the hood now. I've always said I don't care what other people think, so I've had to have wrap my head around living that truth! It took a couple months, but I'm fine with no one knowing the work I put in and what's under the hood. I didn't do it for them (or, as much as I love you all, for you guys either) anyway.

Like some others, if it was mine I'd probably NOT put an M3 badge on it, but not for the reasons you think. People who know might see the non- factory color, look at the windshield VIN and see the WBA VIN, and think I'm a poser or a liar or whatever.

I'd either keep it with the original badge and just have a sleeper, I'd do something like "M332i", or I'd just debadge it.

Also, one last thing - please tell me you reinforced the subframe mounts while you had everything out! That's the one important M3 chassis difference, so hopefully you took care of that.

[pizzaman09]

I had this dilemma when I had a 2013 Mini. Technically it was a Mini S, but it had 100% of the factory option dealer installed JCW upgrades like tune, intake, suspension, exhaust, and brakes. It also had many of the rare GP upgrades including the full aero package and interior with factory rear seat delete and rear strut bar. It was an awesome build by the previous owner and it did wear JCW badges, but it wasn't a JCW and made a few less horsepower. I'd asked the Mini forum the same question you've asked and the best answer I got was to call it a Mini Cooper S ++.

It's your car, do what you want with it, a badge is but a piece of plastic. If it were me, I'd leave the e36 debadged.

[aeronaut]

Really F with 'em and badge it an Alpina.

[Hagasan41]

Simply switch the numbers around and be done . ///M 325i

https://ind-distribution.com/products/ind-f22-m235i-m240i-painted-trunk-emblem

[IndianaRoadster]

Just debadge the whole car, everyone will then just assume that you are a humble M3 owner.:)

[blckstrm]

Just debadge the whole car, everyone will then just assume that you are a humble M3 owner.:)

You know, I think that's the winner right there!

[RBNetEngr]

The only problem with dealing with your creation would be if you tried to sell it as an M3. As long as it's your own car, do whatever pleases you, badging or no badging, etc. With all the work you put into the car, and the personal ownership you have in the final product, enjoy what you built and be proud of the success you had with the transformation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bmwstephen]

either keep it badge as original and be proud of what you done or run it de-badge to keep it mysterious.

at the end of the day it is your car that you made to your liking no trying to impress anyone on what you drive I presume.

the air-cooled porsche guys that have done the same (i.e. backdated, retrofit, or upgraded their specs) have the same mentality. they either debadge or rock their model with pride (depsite the mods made to it)

[Gene V]

If it didn't leave the factory with an M3 badge, it's not an M3...;)

[dillondudem3]

You know I find it funny that only other USDM E36 M3 owners are the ones who are the most annoyed about the purity of the badge lmfao. And if you actually read the article, you would see I don't call it an M3. Badge is just a badge for this car at this point.

- - - Updated - - -

Was thinking about that but its sorta busy. TBH 70% of me putting the badge on the car were the colors, might just put an M, or debadge it completely when I get paint a 2nd time around after college.

[Nova1]

You know I find it funny that only other USDM E36 M3 owners are the ones who are the most annoyed about the purity of the badge lmfao. And if you actually read the article, you would see I don't call it an M3. Badge is just a badge for this car at this point.

- - - Updated - - -

Was thinking about that but its sorta busy. TBH 70% of me putting the badge on the car were the colors, might just put an M, or debadge it completely when I get paint a 2nd time around after college.

These cars are important to us. Many of us having poured countless hours into our cars during our years of ownership. So, we take pride in them.

[MParallel]

Just rock it.

Fun story. Well more stupid really. My OEM EU M3 3.2, came with the M3 badge, which it proudly wears. I've had people, including mechanics(!) come up to me and asking me why I put an M3 badge on my car...:confused

I then openend the hood and needed no further explanation.