E39-based input on F10

[Monark John]

My wife's MINI is approaching the end of the road at 190k. She has called me out of work twice in the last few months because of trouble with it, and now it's got some indeterminate leak in it's 21-year-old cooling system (don't all BMW products?LOL)
So she has decided she likes a 535ix.
She loves the 540 but with her clutch habits reinforced by the MINI's lack of torque, I cringe when she drives it. Besides, it's my baby (but don't tell the Boxster, Cayenne or 911 that!)
So, I think this is a good choice with AWD for her--and an automatic.
Can any of you fine folks give me insight with this chassis?
I am also looking at the dedicated forums, but I think there may be more grounded wisdom in this respected group.
Thanks!

[TiesTorN]

why don't you just replace the cooling system lol... a leak is not end of the world.

unless you're buying a brand new car, every second hand car will have some problems.

[jicaino]

why don't you just replace the cooling system lol... a leak is not end of the world.

unless you're buying a brand new car, every second hand car will have some problems.

This times 10000000000000000

[jicaino]

Or maybe just buy another 540i or a 530i MT and let your wife grind away the clutch of a real car instead of a Mini? We're fortunate the non-M5 E39s are really cheap, I'd be hard pressed to find anything I'd rather drive at the price you can buy a very good condition E39

[Dking078]

2x E39 owner and long time tool buster.
as well as 3x F10 owner.

I've taken far less tools and BS to F10s than I ever did to E39's. Then again in the family I had F10s from ~40k miles to ~90k miles whereas my E39 life went from 100k-170k.

Far far far less thing break on F10s than E39s. Hell... If I can find another sub 50k loaded F10, I'd do it again. But alas, with the newest one being 2016 mileage is getting up there.

In short, if you have the cash, F10 all day. Just a lower mileage example.

[seagreen323i]

Depending on the year you either end up with an n54 that had a multitude of issues, or an n55 that's a fair bit more reliable. N54 issues are well documented, early n55's still have hpfp issues, valve cover itself, valve cover gaskets, rod bearing issues, eating the belt through the front main due to a bad oil filter housing gasket, cooling system issues, and all the other typical bmw issues. N55 is a fine motor, good power nice and smooth. But no matter what way you look at it turbo engines are under higher stress and have more problems.

Drove a 535ix that I was going to straight trade the 540 for, it's a much more civilized car. Considering mine has been modified a good bit that was to be expected. However it felt huge and heavy. Not sure if your wife chases after the best drivers car or not but that ain't it.

To the comment saying that f10s with 50k -90k miles break less then e39s with 100k - 170k. Who knew cars with less miles on them have less problems???? Lol, just poking fun, seriously though that's a valid point, with the newest example being around 20 years old for an e39 all of the rubber is due for replacement. All of the gaskets are as well. I would argue that the f10 will age much worse then the e39 over time. However the e39 has a large head start. N55 is a problematic engine, and that's widely known. Just do your research.

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[jicaino]

I'd venture to say that if we're "advising" a fellow BMW driver, the "which car breaks more" or mileage or such comments are kind of irrelevant. I, for example, would rather have the N54 than the N55. Some people, not. I've seen high mileage f10s and boy, what a clunking POS. Rattle, fitment issues, a lot of things that an average neglected E39 don't have, let alone a well kept one.
Mileage is irrelevant to me. Road feedback, driver feedback, and sheer joy of driving a car (which, BTW, is what keeps you up on long trips, what makes you overcome white sleep and many other things that turns your driving experience to a numbing drowsy-like experience)
Also, having one more car of a chassis you're familiar with keeps repairs and maintenance at a far more approachable pace IMHO. Much easier to keep things at bay, parts shopping, procedures, scheduled maintenance, all of that.

Maybe a 325i, 330i or a 335i ? Its about the size of an E39 and it's a nicer car to drive (IMO) than the F10 or newer 5ers.

[Monark John]

Thanks, guys.
I'm not concerned about replacing the cooling system parts; they are already in a box in my garage awaiting my attention.
The clutch is up pretty high and she slips it--a lot--so I know it's on borrowed time.
I don't have a lift anymore, so that's not a job I relish without one. Yes, I know most of you have done that under a tree with 40mph winds driving snow sideways in the middle of Alaska, but my time in Wyoming has made me appreciate a calm and warm working environment. Anyway, my big project will be rebuilding the engine of my other Boxster and installing it for the fourth time (don't ask) so I really need to manage projects.
I have noticed the 3s are now the size of the E39s so that is an intriguing thought.
Thanks again for the help!

[JimLev]

Did you remove the clutch delay valve on the e39?
If not, that contributes to clutch ware.
If your going to keep the e39 use the M5 disc and pressure plate, it has more clamping force.

[CPHES]

R50 / R53 Mini’s are nice. Yes, cooling systems need care. Look under a 535iX - that is some scary stuff. It says you are in Illinois. How is the rust on the Mini ( we have an 05 r53 )?

[crdiscoverer]

Depending on the year you either end up with an n54 that had a multitude of issues, or an n55 that's a fair bit more reliable.

Never seen an F10 with N54. Did some come with it? I thought it was N55 only (for I6 models, that is)

[Jason5driver]

I'd venture to say that if we're "advising" a fellow BMW driver, the "which car breaks more" or mileage or such comments are kind of irrelevant. I, for example, would rather have the N54 than the N55. Some people, not. I've seen high mileage f10s and boy, what a clunking POS. Rattle, fitment issues, a lot of things that an average neglected E39 don't have, let alone a well kept one.
Mileage is irrelevant to me. Road feedback, driver feedback, and sheer joy of driving a car (which, BTW, is what keeps you up on long trips, what makes you overcome white sleep and many other things that turns your driving experience to a numbing drowsy-like experience)
Also, having one more car of a chassis you're familiar with keeps repairs and maintenance at a far more approachable pace IMHO. Much easier to keep things at bay, parts shopping, procedures, scheduled maintenance, all of that.

Maybe a 325i, 330i or a 335i ? Its about the size of an E39 and it's a nicer car to drive (IMO) than the F10 or newer 5ers.
I have a 2011 335xi with the N55 .
Great car , but feels extremely cheap compared to the E39 imo .
I know my slow e39 has at least 100hp less than the E90 , but the E39 feels soooo much faster and responsive compared to the E90 with twin turbos ...
Crazy to say , but , yeah .

[seagreen323i]

Never seen an F10 with N54. Did some come with it? I thought it was N55 only (for I6 models, that is)Oh totally right, phased out before the f10, my bad.

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[jicaino]

Never seen an F10 with N54. Did some come with it? I thought it was N55 only (for I6 models, that is)
There's N54 F10s in EU markets IIRC, most definitely not in the US market. It's like that N52 vs. N53 thing.


I have a 2011 335xi with the N55 .
Great car , but feels extremely cheap compared to the E39 imo .
I know my slow e39 has at least 100hp less than the E90 , but the E39 feels soooo much faster and responsive compared to the E90 with twin turbos ...
Crazy to say , but , yeah .
I believe you because I considered trading my E39 for the 335i and felt exactly like that. Nice car, feels about the size of the E39, but feels cheap, and sort of unresponsive. I can only imagine that the 335iX would feel a lot worse than the RWD version...

I ended up thinking about swapping the N54/6MT drivetrain in the 540i but it was a tad more electronically involved than I wanted to, having to replace even the A/C panel and having to mess around with the direction sensing wheel speed sensors and all. The subframe was kind of workaround-able with minor massaging/fabrication.

[QtheGenius]

I think the F10 is a great 5 series. I can't wait to add one to my stable, specifically a diesel. As much as I love my e39 540it, i want something with better MPG and still haul the family.

[jicaino]

I think the F10 is a great 5 series. I can't wait to add one to my stable, specifically a diesel. As much as I love my e39 540it, i want something with better MPG and still haul the family.
The 535d feels great and it's quicker than the 535i

[ross1]

Thanks, guys.
I'm not concerned about replacing the cooling system parts; they are already in a box in my garage awaiting my attention.
The clutch is up pretty high and she slips it--a lot--so I know it's on borrowed time.
I don't have a lift anymore, so that's not a job I relish without one. Yes, I know most of you have done that under a tree with 40mph winds driving snow sideways in the middle of Alaska, but my time in Wyoming has made me appreciate a calm and warm working environment. Anyway, my big project will be rebuilding the engine of my other Boxster and installing it for the fourth time (don't ask) so I really need to manage projects.
I have noticed the 3s are now the size of the E39s so that is an intriguing thought.
Thanks again for the help!

It's not a job to relish with or without a lift. No valid opinion on the F10 but strongly suggest that you scram that Mini.

[crdiscoverer]

I myself would love an F06. Best looking modern day BMW. There is a 640i for sale here within my budget range with just 20k miles. I have never been so tempted to let my old crapcan go. If you don't need that middle back seat, those things are gorgeous inside and out.

[dannyzabolotny]

Having worked on quite a few F10's at various shops, I would never want to own one over an E39. The steering is completely numb and lifeless (it's fully electric unless you have the M5), there are dozens of modules that fail with age, the interiors don't hold up very well, and each drivetrain option has its own issues:

- N20 has the timing chain issues and turbos often go bad. They're also quite rattley and kill engine mounts pretty quickly. A very disappointing engine with almost no upsides.
- N52 (in the 2011 528i) is okay, except when they have Valvetronic issues. They always need oil pan gaskets and valve cover replacements. This probably the least troublesome engine of the bunch.
- N55 is good until it isn't. They have a lot of Valvetronic issues— if you're lucky, you just get to pull a valve cover + injectors and replace a valvetronic actuator motor, and if you're unlucky, the whole eccentric shaft gets wiped out and then you're looking at having to replace the entire cylinder head, yay. They've also got a lot of oil starvation issues and I've seen countless N55's seize up and/or spin rod bearings which wipes out the motor. They also do this fun party trick where the oil filter housing gasket fails, soaks the belt with oil, and then the belt gets sucked into the crank seal. That one is at least somewhat preventable through maintenance.
- N57 has the timing chain on the back of the motor. And they fail, requiring an engine-out job. Sure, you could technically drop the transmission out and do it from underneath the car, but most shops won't do that. Add in a litany of expensive emissions components that love to fail and you've got the makings of a bad time.
- N63 is just a big basket of crap that should be avoided all costs. There is no "good" year, they all have fundamental issues— injectors failing open, timing chains stretching, oil pumps failing, and just leaking oil + coolant from everywhere at all times. They're always in limp mode too when I see them. The S63's are starting to have similar issues, which are also exacerbated by those cars getting the snot beaten out of them on a daily basis.

Add xDrive into the mix and every repair job becomes twice as annoying (and twice as expensive if you're paying a shop to do it). The front drivetrain passes through the oil pan, so every time you need to pull the oil pan, replace timing chains, or even replace the electric water pump + thermostat, it's a huge hassle.

This is my experience from running my own BMW shop + working at two independent Euro shops, along with talking to most of the BMW shop owners in my area.

[jicaino]

Having worked on quite a few F10's at various shops, I would never want to own one over an E39. The steering is completely numb and lifeless (it's fully electric unless you have the M5), there are dozens of modules that fail with age, the interiors don't hold up very well, and each drivetrain option has its own issues:

- N20 has the timing chain issues and turbos often go bad. They're also quite rattley and kill engine mounts pretty quickly. A very disappointing engine with almost no upsides.
- N52 (in the 2011 528i) is okay, except when they have Valvetronic issues. They always need oil pan gaskets and valve cover replacements. This probably the least troublesome engine of the bunch.
- N55 is good until it isn't. They have a lot of Valvetronic issues— if you're lucky, you just get to pull a valve cover + injectors and replace a valvetronic actuator motor, and if you're unlucky, the whole eccentric shaft gets wiped out and then you're looking at having to replace the entire cylinder head, yay. They've also got a lot of oil starvation issues and I've seen countless N55's seize up and/or spin rod bearings which wipes out the motor. They also do this fun party trick where the oil filter housing gasket fails, soaks the belt with oil, and then the belt gets sucked into the crank seal. That one is at least somewhat preventable through maintenance.
- N57 has the timing chain on the back of the motor. And they fail, requiring an engine-out job. Sure, you could technically drop the transmission out and do it from underneath the car, but most shops won't do that. Add in a litany of expensive emissions components that love to fail and you've got the makings of a bad time.
- N63 is just a big basket of crap that should be avoided all costs. There is no "good" year, they all have fundamental issues— injectors failing open, timing chains stretching, oil pumps failing, and just leaking oil + coolant from everywhere at all times. They're always in limp mode too when I see them. The S63's are starting to have similar issues, which are also exacerbated by those cars getting the snot beaten out of them on a daily basis.

Add xDrive into the mix and every repair job becomes twice as annoying (and twice as expensive if you're paying a shop to do it). The front drivetrain passes through the oil pan, so every time you need to pull the oil pan, replace timing chains, or even replace the electric water pump + thermostat, it's a huge hassle.

This is my experience from running my own BMW shop + working at two independent Euro shops, along with talking to most of the BMW shop owners in my area.

Great long detailed post of why I typed "get another E39 jnstead"

[Jason5driver]

I with Danny ... lol
And , I have been there , done that with the Xi / all-wheel drive maintenance ...
I replaced the oil pan gasket , which led to a huge amount of other things , but I'm a bit OCD when working on the car , so everything has to be spotless , and perfect-ish ... lol .
I also had to replace the front wheel bearings on the x-drive , which is a whole other nasty animal ...
It's also hilarious what was mentioned about the N63 ....
Make sure to tell Graham about that ... lol .

[JimLev]

Makes me thing I should keep my E39 540 for ever.

[crdiscoverer]

Well, there goes my hopes of owning an F06. Thanks, Danny

[jicaino]

Makes me thing I should keep my E39 540 for ever.

We all should, Jim.

[Santaclaus4]

Makes me thing I should keep my E39 540 for ever.
I plan to take mine to the grave with me like they did with Jack Warden in the movie "Used Cars".

BTW, good write-up Danny. That should almost be a sticky somewhere.

[QtheGenius]

Danny, with your wealth of knowledge, if you had to buy a BMW this side of 2012, what would you buy? Going off the assumption that ANY car can be a turd, not that many truly are. So if you had to buy one, with maintenance records, what has the best chance of ending up in your garage?

Don't get me wrong, I love my e39. It's surpassed my expectations for what it's capable of. And as much as we in this group say the e39 is the end-all-be-all, for some who just want information for what to go to next, we should help them. I want a 2016 535d, just what I want. So for me, I'm looking for information for that model, not reasons to avoid and stay with what I have. All cars have issues. I'm sure years ago people said to avoid the 540 because of the chain guides, but here we are saying it isn't THAT bad.

[dannyzabolotny]

If I had to buy a BMW newer than 2012, my pick would be something with the B58. Yes, their plastic valve covers and plastic cooling system components continue to be a problem, but those are manageable and I have not seen any major issues with them yet. Time will tell if they're a truly reliable engine, but it does seem like BMW learned some lessons from the problems with the N54 and N55, as the B58 is back to a normal belt-driven water pump, has a significantly more simple turbo/intercooler setup, and the timing system is improved in the B58/S58 to get rid of the fatal crank hub flaw.

Tuners have been pushing the B58's to 800whp and beyond on the stock engine, it's a stout motor.

I'd get an F30 340i 6-speed, as it's still a decent-looking car with a straight 6 and a manual transmission available. The ZF 8-speed is an excellent auto is well, if that's your thing.

With the diesels, the main thing that kills them in my mind are the emissions components, once they start failing they're tremendously expensive to repair. Perhaps consider an extended warranty if you want a 535d.

[crdiscoverer]

And this B58 beauty just popped up for sale around here, with 25k miles:

https://crautos.com/autosusados/cardetail.cfm?c=77120732

I have been considering a newer BMW for a while now (I was between a G30 or F06) and this thread comes at a very good (bad?) time. I'll go check that out... damn.

[sleuth255]

Makes me thing I should keep my E39 540 for ever.

Planning on it here. Some major work coming my way though; original clutch is starting to chatter more often at 208K miles, so clutch and trans lockout pin replacement to fix that pesky 5th gear issue, along with full inspection/replacement of worn driveshaft components. Then finally get around to replacing my original Vanos followed by brake line flush/full brake system inspection. Probably will need some brake line replacements. I'm gonna need a lift; I'm getting a bit too old to be crawling around under the car myself.