Primer questions for Cinnabar red

[crb635]

Happy 2021 Sixers,

Two questions:

1) Does BMW vary the primer they use underneath their paints to accentuate the top color, e.g., light primer for light colors or dark under dark or is it one primer for all?

2) What is the correct primer collor for use under Cinnabar red (BMW 138)?

Thank you Six Fans

[Dschart]

I know for sure that the 80's vintage cars use multiple types of primer under the base coat. I've stripped several and there is always a DTM type epoxy primer on the steel, then a primer or sealer, then the basecoat color and finally the clear. If you put enough thickness of the basecoat, the primer color isn't going to matter. I've always used lighter primers for light base colors and dark on dark.

I've never seen factory specs on primer colors, sorry I can't answer your question. I do know aftermarket paint companies such as PPG or Glasurit will have primer recommendations to go with each color.

If you are trying to match paint on an existing 80's car, then the factory color codes are just a starting point. The color will need to be custom mixed with spray outs over the primer. The color is not the same as the day the car left the factory.

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[carsnplanes]

I know for sure that the 80's vintage cars use multiple types of primer under the base coat. I've stripped several and there is always a DTM type epoxy primer on the steel, then a primer or sealer, then the basecoat color and finally the clear. If you put enough thickness of the basecoat, the primer color isn't going to matter. I've always used lighter primers for light base colors and dark on dark.

I've never seen factory specs on primer colors, sorry I can't answer your question. I do know aftermarket paint companies such as PPG or Glasurit will have primer recommendations to go with each color.

If you are trying to match paint on an existing 80's car, then the factory color codes are just a starting point. The color will need to be custom mixed with spray outs over the primer. The color is not the same as the day the car left the factory.

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Interesting...I thought all of our 70s and 80s cars used single stage paint. You mentioned Base and clear.
My old 85 and now my 88 has single stage Cinnabar. No clear. (someone did do several partial paint areas using base and clear).

[Dschart]

I know that my 85 E24 which is Zinnoberrot was base/clear from the factory.

I do not know that every color was base/ clear.

I've also never seen an 80's bmw that had a single stage color. I have seen probably a hundred of them that had clear coat loss.

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[sofiabghome]

Happy 2021 Sixers,

Two questions:

1) Does BMW vary the primer they use underneath their paints to accentuate the top color, e.g., light primer for light colors or dark under dark or is it one primer for all?

2) What is the correct primer collor for use under Cinnabar red (BMW 138)?

Thank you Six Fans


Hi,

The answer is NO. BMW does not use primer which will match the specific
color code.

The Primer BMW used is Grey Color for all final exterior color codes.

Ones the body is primed then the single stage coat goes on top.

Make sure you get Epoxy primer...the other primer is garbage..

Regards,
Anri

[Bert Poliakoff]

Hi,

The answer is NO. BMW does not use primer which will match the specific
color code.

The Primer BMW used is Grey Color for all final exterior color code.

Ones the body is primed then the single stage coat goes on top.

Make sure you get Epoxy primer...the other primer is garbage..

Regards,
Anri

++1 My understanding is solid colors are single stage metallics 2 stage

[DesktopDave]

My '86 has single-stage Cinnabar. It's a beautifully-thick coat of lacquer that gleams after a nice polish & wax. Although it's faded quite a bit over the years, I wish more cars had paint like this! No idea of primer, appears to be a pretty standard grey from the little I've seen. Hopefully I won't see much more, eh?

I haven't seen clear coat on any factory BMW until the really late 80s. But now that I'm thinking about it, I'd guess the transition happened differently across production lines. Could also be depending on model, or even something like paint color. I'd figure environmental regulations changed in different factories at different times depending on the region. I don't believe that the E24 was built anywhere other than Dingolfing though, except for the really early ones.

I've seen a few later cars had special primers or other undercoats from the factory. That seemed to really get started in the mid-90s. I just missed out on an E36 328i "Luxury Convertible" and recently checked out an E34 525i "Olympic Edition". Both of them had a few BMW Individual option codes like the S490 "Sonderlack". Neither were special mechanically, but both had odd/rare options. The cabriolet was loaded - Sport leather extended interior, full M-Pack exterior trim, Style 25 wheels, "Chromeline" switchgear. My inner BMW geek really appreciates these odd little NA market cars.


Looks like BMW has dramatically expanded the Individual program, it's fun to play with. Here's a link (https://visualizer.bmw-individual.com/Ipps/bmwoac?page=imc&market=80001-DE&Header=1&dc=1-1&lang=EN#top).

- - - Updated - - -

Speaking of Cinnabar, does anyone have a source for those clever BMW branded touch-up sticks? I haven't found any in a long time, just aftermarket sources.

[RSheiman]

+1. Cinnabar is single stage.

[tiMASTER]

I'd probably use red oxide if you are painting the entire car; gray if just a panel. But I agree that BMW was not particular and used gray for everything as far as I'm aware.

But, PPG (and others I assume) sell a coat guide card, which is a paper card, half black and half white printed, with a hole in the center, crossing into both areas.

You apply coats of color (no primer) until you cannot discern the black from white underneath, and that tells you your coat-count for that color (and paint system). If you mess with your gun settings you should shoot another card and adjust your coat count, if it changes.

The center hole is to place on adjacent panels to check color match.

I always like to use these, but I haven't painted anything in many years now.

[Bert Poliakoff]

Red oxide is "soft" and not a good primer for a finish coat. As Anri said, a good epoxy primer is what is proper. My car was painted by myself and a friend and between primer and finish coats, over $2K in material were used and I have a paint job = to any $10K job out there. It isn't rubbed out yet and looks like a sheet of glass after many block sandings of the primer before applying the base and clear coat

[tiMASTER]

Not getting into primer or sealer types and uses, but red oxide is a color, and any type of primer or sealer can be had in red oxide color. (Maybe not off the shelf at pep boys)

Prime with high build primer; apply contrasting guide coat (dusting) block until you have no guide coat. Then sealer before base color and finally clear.

Depending on the system you may or may not block n buff the clear.

[Bert Poliakoff]

Not to get in a pissing contest with you, but I suggest you google Red Oxide primer. As far as I know it is a high build primer, not a color, good on bare metal, but it does not have any of the quality features close to the epoxy based primer. Yes block sand after guide coating as you said but may take a few coats of primer in low spots . Agree that you shouldn't have to wet sand the clear coat.

[carsnplanes]

Maybe there is a confusion about Red Oxide Putty(used to fill minute scratches left by machine swirls on bondo) and Red Oxide primer color.

[sofiabghome]

Hi Bert,

One should also consider the final clear coat finish.

Orange peel is a very very difficult to keep consistent..thru
the entire body.

And why the Factory process is by energizing the shell.

Orange peel also varies from little rougher close to flat. Its up
to the individual what it likes.

Ones the individual likes a chosen orange peel roughness the painter
will set the gun. When the clear coat cures then a milds worn
out 2000 sand paper the entire car and then buff and glaze and
its read to enjoy.

The consistency of the Orange peel is from the gun and the painter's
hand. One should never ever try to match a orange peel by sanding the
clear coat..

Quality paint work has its price. A hot rod shop do have those skills and
very hi level of paint finish because its not a commercial shop.

Back to the original post. BMW uses grey color primer which does not affect
the color contrast.

Regards,
Anri

[Bert Poliakoff]

Anri I agree and if needed the clear coat can be wet sanded. Mine laid down without orange peel maybe because of the slow flashing thinner we used and our nice AZ weather. I have painted at least 10 cars over the years and feel I know what I am doing. Aside from that the friend that was involved is one of the best painters in town so i am more than pleased with the quality of the finished product. I have been doing a ground up nut and bolt restoration on this car for 12 years and can promise due to the amount of money put into it, the quality wouldn't be lost in an inferior paint job

[crb635]

:)

Thank you to all who responded to my questions regarding primer for Cinnabar red.


Hi,

The answer is NO. BMW does not use primer which will match the specific
color code.

The Primer BMW used is Grey Color for all final exterior color codes.

Ones the body is primed then the single stage coat goes on top.

Make sure you get Epoxy primer...the other primer is garbage..

Regards,
Anri