Which company makes the fastest M3's???

[Sacramento M3]

Hey Everyone,

Just curious as to everyones opinion, who out there builds the fastest M3's???

[michaelab]

Errr...that would be BMW. Don't know of anyone else that builds M3s. Lots of people modify them but no one else builds them.

Also, what do mean by fastest? Quickest 0-60, 1/4 mile, top speed?

Michael.

[Sacramento M3]

1/4 mile times
and by build i mean modify :)
Who gets the most power out of the M3's?

[BMLRacer]

If you want a drag car, buy a Camaro. BMW's are meant to be on the worlds finest road courses. Look to TC Kline, Turner, ERT, and others to build the "true" fastest BMW's in North America.

[Sacramento M3]

Originally posted by BMLRacer
If you want a drag car, buy a Camaro. BMW's are meant to be on the worlds finest road courses. Look to TC Kline, Turner, ERT, and others to build the "true" fastest BMW's in North America.
Actually camaro's are great road racing cars too!

[Kevlar]

No tuners in the USA make cars. In Germany, there are a bunch of approved manufacturer that take BMW and fully retrofit them.

AC Schnitzer
Hartge
Hamann
Nowack

There are a bunch of tuners in the US tho that modify cars.

Active Autowerke
UUC Motorwerkes
Turner Motorsport
ECIS
Rogue Engineering
RMS
DINAN
ERT

and many others.

[B.Watts]

Originally posted by Sacramento M3
Actually camaro's are great road racing cars too!

Umm yeah. Uh-huh. You believe everything you read in the car magazines don't ya?

That must be the reason so many Camero clubs are holding track days. Wait, no.

[Kevlar]

Originally posted by BMWRacerITS
Umm yeah. Uh-huh. You believe everything you read in the car magazines don't ya?

I saw a Camaro running Sebring raceway. The car was holding onto and passing M3. Granted, it was the slowest through the corner... but it has the shear power to make it up on the straights.

I was funny to see the camaro brake really hard take the corners slow (as the BMWs catch up) and then watch the camaro haul ass down any straight...

Granted... the M3 is more of a racing car, the camaro was a good racing car, but a helluva straight away car.

[BMLRacer]

I've driven plenty of Camaro's in various race set ups (SCCA SSGT, T2, ASedan,IMSA Street Stock Endurance) and they are some of the most disposable racing cars on the market. All motor, no brakes or turning. If a M3 had that grunt, it'd be 6-8 seconds a lap faster at a minimum.

If you want a fast BMW in a straight line, bolt an AA hairdryer on it and off you go.

If you want to tap into the true potential on the M3, look at the only BMW teams that have been racing and winning with them: ERT, TC Kline, and Turner. These guys know the right balance of HP and handling. And that, my friend, is what the BMW expirence is about.

Brian

[Kevlar]

Originally posted by BMLRacer
If you want a fast BMW in a straight line, bolt an AA hairdryer on it and off you go.


A car with an "AA hair dryer" can also turn. You just have to know drive a car with a turbo...I mean hair dryer attached.

[BMLRacer]

Kevin,

All of know that a turbo BMW is not a very good track car. Neither is a Blown one. They over heat, have design characteristics that don't lend to productive track use, and hey are very difficult to drive quickly. The AA turbo kit is nice for the street and the drag strip. But, as a dedicated track car, it's junk. The turbo pipe running under the front subframe is junk the first time you use the curbs, it produces entirely too much underhood heat, and a host of other track reliablity issues. Everyone knows and accepts this. Find me one, just one, active BMW club racer that is using a turbo. Times up, there are none. There are also very, very few blown club racers out there. Why, they just don't hold together.

I'll happily concede the drag race to a F/I BMW. But, it'll get wailed on by a well set up N/A car in an hour long track session.


I'm not bagging on your buddies, I'm just getting the straight facts out there.

Brian

[fourfa]

dollar for dollar, it's hard to beat a modifed Mustang or Camero on the track. Note I said "dollar for dollar." Not everyone can afford BMWs.

however a fast Camero requires a brutally stiff suspension and is pretty useless on the street, whereas a fast BMW can be a compromise street car very effectively...

[BMLRacer]

Originally posted by fourfa
dollar for dollar, it's hard to beat a modifed Mustang or Camero on the track. Note I said "dollar for dollar." Not everyone can afford a BMW

Racing a SCCA T2 Camaro will cost more than $15k more per season than running a M3 in the same class. How do I know? I have budgets on my desk to run both. Oh, and a BMW M3 (a 95 even) won the SCCA Runoffs in T2, against several 2001 Camaros.

Brian

[Kevlar]

Originally posted by BMLRacer
I'll happily concede the drag race to a F/I BMW. But, it'll get wailed on by a well set up N/A car in an hour long track session.


It's got nothing to do with being buddies of mine or not. If a turbo car is such a bad track car... how come Audi is using turbos (what other manufacturers use turbos)? BMWs may have shown that they prefer to use NA power, but a turbo/supercharger can definitely help. Don't some other cars use turbos as well? Hmm... I think so...

I know quite a few people that are using turbos/superchargers on the track (regardless of car)... some of them even in BMWs (go figure).

Many people may say turbos don't work on the track... I'm just convinced they don't know how to drive a turbo car on the track. Just because you are biased against turbo cars on the track shouldn't mean others should be as well.

[fourfa]

I meant for open track driving, not competitive racing. Should have clarified, sorry. whatever, the dollar for dollar winner is a Sentra SE-R anyway

[fourfa]

a factory-turbocharged Audi is a different beast than a AA-turboed M3. Who would pay $10,000+ to turbocharge an M3 and give up lots of ultimate power for fast spooling small turbos? Spend the money on N/A mods instead. Thus most of the AA turbos are massive, peaky torque monsters that will kill you midcorner.

A well-engineered turbo M3 could be quick spooling and have heat issues under control, but would still drag the downtube and be massively expensive.

[BMLRacer]

Kevin,

Buddy, slow down for a second here. We're talking BMW. A car that was never designed for forced induction. Lets face it, even the best turbo or blower on a BMW is a bastardization. Plain and simple. The Audi, Porsche 911 GT2,Eagle Talon, Mitsubishi Lancer Evo, etc have all been very succesful road racing cars. They are also designed, from the factory, as turbo cars. Guys like Chuck Stickley used to carry 5, count em 5, blowers with him to the track. He ditched the set up for a N/A set up with less power and is now going faster than ever. Larry Wright ditched his blower for a Euro engine and went 5 seconds per lap faster everywhere he went. Same goes for Pierre Collett. Hell, Scott Galaba got so fed up with never finishng a racer with his F/I car, that he sold the damn car. Steve Dinan cant make his track car hld together for an entire race. See a trend? I'm not just pulling this stuff out of my rear. When a car is designd to have the hairdryer on it, they make wholesale changes in other departments to make everything work right. The BMW M3 is not and never will be properly designed to deal with one.

[BMLRacer]

Originally posted by fourfa
I meant for open track driving, not competitive racing. Should have clarified, sorry. whatever, the dollar for dollar winner is a Sentra SE-R anyway

My 1992 Sentra SE-R SCCA SSB race car was the best race car I've ever owned. Hell, it's one of the best cars I've ever owned. I would kill to have that car back and in my garage.

[TKM3]

Originally posted by michaelab
Errr...that would be BMW. Don't know of anyone else that builds M3s. Lots of people modify them but no one else builds them.

Also, what do mean by fastest? Quickest 0-60, 1/4 mile, top speed?

Michael.

There's a MCoupe out there that took a 99 red/black/white R1
from 60-160. I saw the whole race. He took it back in, put a
bigger turbo, intercooler, 279lsd w/50% lock up, and 425hp w/
stock internals.

Dunno from 0-60 stuff, that mickey mouse stuff. Top speed, 0-150
is what counts in my book =)

[Kevlar]

Originally posted by BMLRacer
The BMW M3 is not and never will be properly designed to deal with one.

Hey... I'm not here to argue with you, but I guess we live in two different worlds. An engine is an engine... regardless. Air goes in, there is a big bang, exhaust goes out, that's how power is made. Turbochargers/Superchargers (whatever your flavor) increase an engine's efficiency.

If these turbocharged/supercharged cars are so bad... how come a lowly BMW 318ti... with attached hair dryer of course... was able to pull a 3rd place over all in the one lap of america?

I'm not saying turbos are the end all to making power... but they aren't as lowly as you'd like people to believe. Every post I read from you it seems that you have something to prove about how a turbo is nothing more than a hair dryer. If turbos are so bad... why do so many people buy them?

[m3fordcord]

Yes Brian but a turbo m3 vs n/a m3 the turbo car will be faster around the track.IT HAS MORE HORSE POWER!!!! What did a turbocharger ever do to you to deserve such treatment. Well?
I hate nitrous myself, there I said it and I'm trying to over come it. :biglaughb

[jsp98m3]

A turbo on a In line 6 as ooposed to a 4 cylinder is a whole 'nother animal.

I have the turbo disease and I can get around Buttonwillow faster in a stock M3. My main problem is talent though. :)

I don't think the M3 can reliably handle more than 400 HP for long. Neither the motor nor the chassis. I've seen the evidence ($$$) of both.

If you want to race, get both a Camaro and an M3 and make them both into what they are good at. If you can't afford both, I promise you, you can't afford either.

My personal car budget is $2500 per month. Month in, month out. That's a shit load of cash.

[TKM3]

Originally posted by jsp98m3
A turbo on a In line 6 as ooposed to a 4 cylinder is a whole 'nother animal.

I have the turbo disease and I can get around Buttonwillow faster in a stock M3. My main problem is talent though. :)

I don't think the M3 can reliably handle more than 400 HP for long. Neither the motor nor the chassis. I've seen the evidence ($$$) of both.

If you want to race, get both a Camaro and an M3 and make them both into what they are good at. If you can't afford both, I promise you, you can't afford either.

My personal car budget is $2500 per month. Month in, month out. That's a shit load of cash.

I knew someone out here tracked a turbo m3 ;) ;) ;)

[Sacramento M3]

And this is how we get races started everybody! :evil2

Just kiddin everyone, no I was just wondering which company you guys thought in the US can get the most HP out of a car.

Other than that, all this stuff about racing.......it's nice and all, but the fact is I drive my car on the street, not the track.

[BMLRacer]

Originally posted by Kevlar


An engine is an engine... regardless. Air goes in, there is a big bang, exhaust goes out, that's how power is made. Turbochargers/Superchargers (whatever your flavor) increase an engine's efficiency.

If these turbocharged/supercharged cars are so bad... how come a lowly BMW 318ti... with attached hair dryer of course... was able to pull a 3rd place over all in the one lap of america?

. Every post I read from you it seems that you have something to prove about how a turbo is nothing more than a hair dryer. If turbos are so bad... why do so many people buy them?

Kevin. Kevin. Kevin.......

I have always said that: a. BMW's are not drag cars b.I have a road racing and track back ground

An engine is not an engine. Every engine is completely and totally different. Every car is totally different. If you honestly believe what you just wrote, then you are not as bright as I believe you to be. I have driven more turbo cars than most people ever will. Let me point out a few, a Lola/ Ford Champ Car, Porsche GT2, and a little car called the Porsche GT1. Amazing cars. Designed from day 1 around that little hair dryer. Ever hear me say anything bad about them. Nope, not me. I'll sing their praises untill the day I auger in. But, lets face it. A BMW is not designed to handle forced induction AS A TRACK CAR. Sure, it works great on the street and at the strip. That's great if you're into that. I am not. I never will be. I believe in the BMW in it's truest form, a vehicle that blongs on the worlds finest road courses. Sure, Catsby did awesome in the One Lap. Where he locked himself in was the DRAG RACE. The One Lap is one single flying lap, not a 20 minute session. 1 lap. Oh, and they got hammered on the track stuff by Russ Wiles in a N/A LTW. And, Randy Pobst finished 2nd overall two years prior in a STOCK M3.

I respect that you think hairdryers are the answer to all of life issues. I also know that you are not a serious track junkie. That's ok, to each his own. You speak from a street enthusiast perspective, I from the racers perspective. When asked where the tue potential of the M3 is, I go to what works on road courses. And, it's not forced induction. I'm not out to get you, or out to tell people not to buy stuff. If you want a hairdryer, then so be it. Just don't be surprised when a N/A M3 comes storming by you in the turns.

Brian

[Kevlar]

Originally posted by Sacramento M3
Other than that, all this stuff about racing.......it's nice and all, but the fact is I drive my car on the street, not the track.

Ya... don't you just hate it when you make a post asking a simple question and people take it and turn it into their own personal thread to do (insert something here).

Anyway...

a Turbo MCoupe is leaving AA shortly with 425 @ the wheels.
a Turbo 95 M3 left AA a few months ago with 475 @ the wheels... on a mustang dyno.

Totally daily driven.

[jsp98m3]

It doesn't matter who can get the most, it's who can do it with reliability.

I think 400hp is where people should stop. If they drive the car responsibly, they'll probably get 50K miles out of it without it needing anything. Drive it like a peckerhead and you may blow it up on the way home.

There are BMW drag cars rumored to make in excess of 1000hp. Do you want one? No. You probably can't afford the new motors every weekend.

So my advice is to go get a Dinan SC car if you MUST have HP. It holds together extremely well, is in the top couple of tuners on HP anyway and has a warranty.

Active Autowerks can make you a car with 75-100 more HP, that you probably can't use, can't afford if you can use it and will cost almost double. No warranty.

[TKM3]

Originally posted by Kevlar


Ya... don't you just hate it when you make a post asking a simple question and people take it and turn it into their own personal thread to do (insert something here).

Anyway...

a Turbo MCoupe is leaving AA shortly with 425 @ the wheels.
a Turbo 95 M3 left AA a few months ago with 475 @ the wheels... on a mustang dyno.

Totally daily driven.

425 hp one.. stock internals..

475 hp one has 19" wheels, wide body kit, and daily driver too

;) ;) ;)

[BMLRacer]

Originally posted by m3fordcord
Yes Brian but a turbo m3 vs n/a m3 the turbo car will be faster around the track.IT HAS MORE HORSE POWER!!!! What did a turbocharger ever do to you to deserve such treatment. Well?
I hate nitrous myself, there I said it and I'm trying to over come it. :biglaughb


Dale,

HP has very little with how a car will get around a track. The key is getting the power, breaking, and handling to work together in harmony. Like I said, the fast BMW Club Racers have all been the F/I route, and have all gone back to N/A and are going much faster. Why? the car doesn't break as often and the N/A motors are alot more user friendly

[TKM3]

Originally posted by jsp98m3
Active Autowerks can make you a car with 75-100 more HP, that you probably can't use, can't afford if you can use it and will cost almost double. No warranty.

Uh jim.. it does has a warranty when you buy a new kit from AA.

[BMLRacer]

Kevin,

Please don't sas me. I've been more than fair. I don't deserve to be treated like an asshole. I haven't treated you like one.

If it's outright power you want. Buy an AA turbo.

Let me know when you're ready to get off the porch and run with the big boys at the track. We'll take good are of ya.

BML

[jsp98m3]

An AA turbo warrranty makes no sense if you don't live within tow truck distance.

I'm sorry but that is silly. Sure, if you ship them dead parts I'm positive they would replace them. But I'm talking about a real warranty where they take your car in, fix it and return it.

If on the other hand, AA will pay to ship my car to them every time it has a problem, repair it and ship it back, I will put my car on a train this weekend.

And drive them into bankruptcy within a year.

[Kevlar]

Originally posted by BMLRacer
Kevin,

Please don't sas me. I've been more than fair. I don't deserve to be treated like an asshole. I haven't treated you like one.

You're right... I over stepped my bounds, my appologies. Discretion is the better part of valour and I over stepped allowing my emotions to speak rather than what I know (or pretend to know). I believe this is the part where we should respectfully agree to disagree. If you are against hairdryers then so be it... you've seen things that I have never or probably never will ... and maybe vice-versa.

[BMLRacer]

Kevin,

I totally respect your opinons. You have to keep in mind that we come from two completely and totally different backgrounds. The only thing that we have in common is the M3. I'm a racer, a track junkie and I make mydecisions on what will work best ove the course of that sort of event. IMO, you are a street enthusiast, who sometimes goes to track events, but is more comfortable on the dragstrip and the street. Thus, we make apples to oranges decisions as to what will work best for the car. When a person asks "what is the fastest M3?", my mind gives us 20 laps at Sebring. Yours may give us a blast down the 1/4 mile or a blast around town. Cars that are set up entirely different. The only thing in common is the M3.

Get a better idea of where I am coming from?

Brian

[jsp98m3]

I no longer recommend Mechtech as you know. I do still recommend AA. But a warranty on track cars would be a huge mistake.

That's Jimbo, BTW.

[BLOWN///M COMPACT]

Um BMLRacer I know you can read but the original Q' was

1/4 mile times
and by build i mean modify
Who gets the most power out of the M3's?

Untill Jimpo made it a reliabilty thread ...

Stickley went the FI route for a while and I am sure you cant lap him !!

[jsp98m3]

Quite correct.

If you want the fastest 1/4 mile times then we'll have to dismiss AA. There's this other guy named Gene Liu.

http://www.evotuners.com/liu.htm

Again, the car won't hold together very long. If you want a fast drag car and also have it last a while, then AA is the way to go.

[Kevlar]

WHOA! STOP!

Everybody walk away from the computer for 15 minutes, take a deep breath and then we can get back to the topic at hand. I can't close this thread because I don't want to be viewed as being biased towards any company/person in this thread so, I'm going to leave it up to the judgement of others.

[BMLRacer]

Dale,

I saw your note pop up and then disappear. I can answer your question/ comment.


Both Larry Wright and Pierre Collett have had F/I engines in their cars. Both now run different itterations of 3.2L euro engines. Both are several seconds faster at Mid Ohio because the cars are much more driveable. Yes, they have less power, but the cars work better. It does happen. It's pretty easy. In road racing, power isn't king. Another little tid bit, though a bit OT, the Honda S2000 is quicker around Mid Ohio than a V8 Camaro. The Camaro has well over 100hp more, but can't even hang with the S2000

Brian

[Sacramento M3]

Originally posted by jsp98m3
An AA turbo warrranty makes no sense if you don't live within tow truck distance.

I'm sorry but that is silly. Sure, if you ship them dead parts I'm positive they would replace them. But I'm talking about a real warranty where they take your car in, fix it and return it.

If on the other hand, AA will pay to ship my car to them every time it has a problem, repair it and ship it back, I will put my car on a train this weekend.

And drive them into bankruptcy within a year.

Bankruptcy, I don't think so Jim. I'm also pretty sure that there's something in the warranty that says if you abuse the use of it (such as by racing the vehicle) you warranty is void. They have better lawyers than you Jim trust me.

As for you Brian,
So you consider yourself a big dog because you track race instead of drag race?
Well that's not very intelligent. Are you trying to say that drag racing doesn't involve any skill on the drivers part?
If so I invite you to race against me same car to same car and we'll see who gets across the line lets say best 5 out of 7?
Just because you track and some of us drag doesn't mean you're a big dog, and we're a little dog, just means you're a big dog in your own yard and we're a big dog in our own yard. Hey when ya feel like runnin with the big dogs on my side of the fence come on over, we'll take care of ya :cool: