Philly, GG, Thad.....time for some new cams

[JimLev]

Good article for the power guys. (I already read it)
https://www.lsxmag.com/tech-stories/the-differences-between-turbocharger-supercharger-and-nitrous-cams/

[setho]

Yeah good luck having anyone make cams for us though, especially for the vanos guys. Than comes the exhaust porting, custom-length/designed headers for each application, and tuning. We are all effed and should have just done an LS swap [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

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[setho]

Great read though!

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[JimLev]

Yeah good luck having anyone make cams for us though, especially for the vanos guys.

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Right, in the past I've called all the big cam makers, no go. They don't have the tooling to grind the narrow peak lobe cams in our M62's.

Should have added you to the subject line too.

So Thad....this first RSB could be your car.
https://www.lsxmag.com/tech-stories/engine/five-cool-ls-swapped-vehicles-built-for-a-different-purpose/

[setho]

Yup. Just gonna LS Swap or VAC block at the end of the day lol

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[dannyzabolotny]

I'm sure that a big reason for why cams haven't caught on as much with BMW V8 guys is because there are so many of em. With an LS you just have one cam to swap, and you don't have to take apart the whole engine to do it. Meanwhile with an M62/S62 there are 4 cams and Vanos to deal with, along with a fairly intricate timing system. Nobody wants to deal with that, hence the lack of demand for cams for these engines.

I wonder if Ford Coyote guys do cams, it *is* a DOHC engine just like ours.

[setho]

I'm sure that a big reason for why cams haven't caught on as much with BMW V8 guys is because there are so many of em. With an LS you just have one cam to swap, and you don't have to take apart the whole engine to do it. Meanwhile with an M62/S62 there are 4 cams and Vanos to deal with, along with a fairly intricate timing system. Nobody wants to deal with that, hence the lack of demand for cams for these engines.

I wonder if Ford Coyote guys do cams, it *is* a DOHC engine just like ours.Its weird because i see VAC sells them for non vanos, but nobody touches the vanos ones

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[dannyzabolotny]

Its weird because i see VAC sells them for non vanos, but nobody touches the vanos ones



The other issue is that if there are any cams for our engines, they're prohibitively expensive! I could never justify spending like $2500 on cams, might as well S62 swap for a bit more than that, or find a used supercharger kit.

[setho]

The other issue is that if there are any cams for our engines, they're prohibitively expensive! I could never justify spending like $2500 on cams, might as well S62 swap for a bit more than that, or find a used supercharger kit.Yeah E39s in general arent financially sound. I have over 40k into mine in the last 4 years lol. Doing most of the work myself. Should've just bought an E46 M3 for what i do [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

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[JimLev]

I have seen cams for the non vanos engines, think CAT Cams in the UK sold them.
They were around $500 each.
Danny, swapping cams on an M62 is easier than an LS. LS requires more parts to be removed.

[philly98540]

Great infor in there Jim! Brings back my days of cam swapping on GM V8's and comparing centerlines, duration, etc to suit what I was going for! Really is amazing what the cam does to the engines character. Total tranformation depending what you do.

I'm good with my blown M62 as it sits now. Super reliable and enough goose when i want to play! A little more displacement would be great, but its fine for this old man for now. At least until Thad comes knocking hard on my door!!

Get your new sled together so we can see some LS action!

[JimLev]

I had ISKY regrind my 300Z cams years ago, wow! With the stock cams it ran out of steam around 5500 RPM.
With the ISKY regrind the engine was still pulling strong at 7500.

The '33 is very close to getting started, just a few more wires to deal with, need to connect the gauges, and some fuel.
Hope to get all done before Sunday, we're leaving on Tuesday morning for a 4 day trip to Durango, Silverton, Ouray, and Grand Junction. Renting a Jeep Wrangler to go exploring the dirt mountian roads, ghost towns, etc.

[dovlet]

Yeah, good link. But, you can also make experiments with diffent cams. For example: my new e36 m62b44 has m60 cams. It is funny and hot. Another example, you can find cams from m62b46 and make few modifications and install it in to m62 or m62b44tu.
Jim, If i am not mistaken, you measured m62b46 cams but said it is not fit. Is not it?

[dovlet]

Also, what does +1 exhaust and +1 intake means in turbo engine?

Is exhaust +1 means: To make +1 exhaust just need to create back pressure (some restrictors, small exhaust pipes or even turbo)? If yes, nothing with cams. Or they meant just open exhaust valves up to level where exhaust gases will escape cambustion chamber with friction by creating back pressure in chamber?

[geargrinder]

Yup. Just gonna LS Swap or VAC block at the end of the day lol

If you mean that VAC M62 block w/ the ITB's that they show off in pix and whatnot... it seems to be really an 'imaginary' motor. They seem to have actually run it in a car for such a short period 100 years ago that nobody actually remembers seeing it running. Seems to be mostly a show-car mockup (reminds me of that that phony reality TV 'girlz custom pickup truck w/ M62 engine!' where they declared victory and an awesome build was completed for reality TV purposes but errrr ummm it never actually ran.... just a glorified show-car roller.. ) And nearly nobody seems to actually have bought that work from them as a working engine. People who've had their M6x work actually done are in the handful I think, and some (see the saga of Dirt11 / 540 T-Trim / Ballard) who did did NOT have luck with their results.

Without saying too much, I always strongly recommend anybody interested in VAC stuff, and who is transfixed by their web pixorz, actually stop by their location and have a walk around, and then see if you're quite so starry-eyed.


I have seen cams for the non vanos engines, think CAT Cams in the UK sold them.


Its weird because i see VAC sells them for non vanos, but nobody touches the vanos ones

I've heard even the NV cams are really NLA from the 2 or 3 sources that made them. Like despite saying "in stock" maybe VAC doesn't really have 'em lying around. There was a guy around here w/ a set for sale years ago... whole revamped heads w/ custom valves IIRC...

Anyway...

Yeah I got a set of NV exhaust cams in the basement that Thaddaroo just sent me. I have a theory that the NV exhaust cam 12° more duration is a big difference in the top-end breathing of the NV motors, and, that should be a good thing for the blown motor.

Plan is to try those next time the valve covers are off. I think I should be able to wangle them out/in without pulling the UTC's by removing secondary tensioners to get enough slack to drop the sprockets out and therefore get the secondary chain out of the way? but more investigation is needed.

Re the intake: The TU factory tune is far more retarded at idle AND high RPM than either the M60 or M62 cams. The TU VANOS basically goes into full advance only between 1520-2240 and by 5K is back to full retard (never go full retard). I have 'issues' decoding my tune because its' 'encrypted' (not exactly but you can think of it that way) but my suspicion is that GIAC didn't actually fiddle with VANOS tuning. This is a decoding project that's still in process... But assuming I'm right about that, it seems like w/ the blower I should be able to / want to run more WOT advance higher up in the revs, and that's 100% doable.

In fact net-net, (cam profile + VANOS movement) the factory VANOS can push 25° more advance than even an M60 intake cam, although it doesn't have as much duration. The plan there would be to get the car on the dyno and dyno tune the VANOS advance at higher RPMs to see if more advance indeed is what is called for up there.

All that should go hand-in-hand with my smaller pulley tuning really...

[philly98540]

^ok something interesting. We need a thread on this when/if. K.

- - - Updated - - -

Opening up top end on the TU would be just what the doctor ordered.

[dovlet]

Any one who tries make any experiments with m62b46 cams in to m62b44tu or m62b44 just let me know. I can advise how instal it. You will get fantastic results even with no tune it. Also, several times we had good achievements with m60 intakes on intake and exhaust on m62b44 non tu engine. Wonderful results.

[setho]

If you mean that VAC M62 block w/ the ITB's that they show off in pix and whatnot... it seems to be really an 'imaginary' motor. They seem to have actually run it in a car for such a short period 100 years ago that nobody actually remembers seeing it running. Seems to be mostly a show-car mockup (reminds me of that that phony reality TV 'girlz custom pickup truck w/ M62 engine!' where they declared victory and an awesome build was completed for reality TV purposes but errrr ummm it never actually ran.... just a glorified show-car roller.. ) And nearly nobody seems to actually have bought that work from them as a working engine. People who've had their M6x work actually done are in the handful I think, and some (see the saga of Dirt11 / 540 T-Trim / Ballard) who did did NOT have luck with their results.

Without saying too much, I always strongly recommend anybody interested in VAC stuff, and who is transfixed by their web pixorz, actually stop by their location and have a walk around, and then see if you're quite so starry-eyed.





I've heard even the NV cams are really NLA from the 2 or 3 sources that made them. Like despite saying "in stock" maybe VAC doesn't really have 'em lying around. There was a guy around here w/ a set for sale years ago... whole revamped heads w/ custom valves IIRC...

Anyway...

Yeah I got a set of NV exhaust cams in the basement that Thaddaroo just sent me. I have a theory that the NV exhaust cam 12° more duration is a big difference in the top-end breathing of the NV motors, and, that should be a good thing for the blown motor.

Plan is to try those next time the valve covers are off. I think I should be able to wangle them out/in without pulling the UTC's by removing secondary tensioners to get enough slack to drop the sprockets out and therefore get the secondary chain out of the way? but more investigation is needed.

Re the intake: The TU factory tune is far more retarded at idle AND high RPM than either the M60 or M62 cams. The TU VANOS basically goes into full advance only between 1520-2240 and by 5K is back to full retard (never go full retard). I have 'issues' decoding my tune because its' 'encrypted' (not exactly but you can think of it that way) but my suspicion is that GIAC didn't actually fiddle with VANOS tuning. This is a decoding project that's still in process... But assuming I'm right about that, it seems like w/ the blower I should be able to / want to run more WOT advance higher up in the revs, and that's 100% doable.

In fact net-net, (cam profile + VANOS movement) the factory VANOS can push 25° more advance than even an M60 intake cam, although it doesn't have as much duration. The plan there would be to get the car on the dyno and dyno tune the VANOS advance at higher RPMs to see if more advance indeed is what is called for up there.

All that should go hand-in-hand with my smaller pulley tuning really...A man can throw his money away on hopes and dreams. That's realistically what we are all doing anyways building our E39s [emoji23]

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[computiNATEor]

A man can throw his money away on hopes and dreams. That's realistically what we are all doing anyways building our E39s [emoji23]

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Seriously. A friend of mine has more than $100k sunk into his M5.

[setho]

Seriously. A friend of mine has more than $100k sunk into his M5.Ive gor 40k into my 540 without counting sponsors, doing 90% of the work myself, and having never paid retail on anything [emoji23][emoji23][emoji22]

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[dovlet]

Seriously. A friend of mine has more than $100k sunk into his M5.
Wau, that is huge amount)))

[JimLev]

Yeah, good link. But, you can also make experiments with diffent cams. For example: my new e36 m62b44 has m60 cams. It is funny and hot. Another example, you can find cams from m62b46 and make few modifications and install it in to m62 or m62b44tu.
Jim, If i am not mistaken, you measured m62b46 cams but said it is not fit. Is not it?

Without digging out my old notes IIRC the intake valves only had 0.3mm of clearance to the piston when turning the engine over by hand. That distance would decrease slightly as the engine warmed up.