E34 as a first car

[katit2]

Hello! First post here, just trying to understand what I'm getting into..

I had 1997 540i/6(E39) from 2004(120k) until 2014(240k) as DD, I did all maintenance & repairs myself (just to give you idea about my mechanical abilities)

Now I drive M3, but my daughter will be getting license in 2018 and since I'm the one providing - I get to pick what she drives :) Basically, I need to pick car which should be decently safe. Reliability is not super-concern, she doesn't need car to get to work.
I LOVE E34's and I never had one. I'm thinking about getting one, making sure it's solid and drive it part time myself with a plan to give it to my daughter later when she can drive legally. This will be a car she learns how to drive. When she is out of school - I get to keep this car..

MANUAL gearbox is a must.
Rust-free with decent paint is a must (I can fix other stuff)

Ideally it will be late year black 535(but I like to know which one considered the easiest to work on and reliable). Worse case it shouldn't be green (for some reason there is a lot of cars from that area which green)

I think those cars should be easier to troubleshoot than E39, easier to work on and cheaper (in parts). I did some reading and common issues is not something I'm worrying about. As I mentioned it is a toy to server DD duty.

Questions is:

1. Given what I said - is that a bad idea?
2. Where should I look for good example?
3. Given manual/black request, how hard is that to find one like this?


Any other suggestions/pointers?

[ross1]

If you can service your E39 an E34 will be peanuts.
Manual and black puts you squarely into the youth market for these cars, finding one may not be hard but finding an unmolested example might be tougher. Rust free around here(Chicago) is a unicorn, perhaps a better situation for you 200 miles south.
Are the colors and manual your requirements or your girl's ? I was recently able to find a black car, rust free but automatic that dad was selling because the daughter he bought it for HATED it.
All of these car's foibles have been figured out and almost all are DIY-able by anyone with ten fingers, a three digit I.Q. and some willingness to get dirty. Parts are also cheap if you know where to buy.
Spend a little time browsing this sub-forum to get a feel for the E34s idiosyncrasies and, if my opinion matters, find an unmodified/molested example even if you need to compromise in another department.

[katit2]

If you can service your E39 an E34 will be peanuts.
Manual and black puts you squarely into the youth market for these cars, finding one may not be hard but finding an unmolested example might be tougher. Rust free around here(Chicago) is a unicorn, perhaps a better situation for you 200 miles south.
Are the colors and manual your requirements or your girl's ? I was recently able to find a black car, rust free but automatic that dad was selling because the daughter he bought it for HATED it.
All of these car's foibles have been figured out and almost all are DIY-able by anyone with ten fingers, a three digit I.Q. and some willingness to get dirty. Parts are also cheap if you know where to buy.
Spend a little time browsing this sub-forum to get a feel for the E34s idiosyncrasies and, if my opinion matters, find an unmodified/molested example even if you need to compromise in another department.

Thanks for reply! Black is my requirement also I personally don't drive black car (hate to clean it). I think it can be any color, just not green. If she won't like it - she is free to get her own, my goal is to get car that I'd like to see on my driveway and I don't mind working on (because she won't fix it)

Good point about black/manual being youth preference. But I do need manual because I want here to learn to drive manual. Also, less "car sharing" this way.
I don't think STL is much better than Chicago regards rust.. and I don't mind getting car shipped, just not sure where in US there is more of those and in better body condition..

What about engine choice? I definitely don't need any racing or power. Reliability and economy will be priority. After my E39 I definitely don't want any V8s :)

Ideally it should be clean, stock example.

P.S. How hard is manual swap? In case clean black low-mileage auto presents itself?

[XAlt]

Thanks for reply! Black is my requirement also I personally don't drive black car (hate to clean it). I think it can be any color, just not green. If she won't like it - she is free to get her own, my goal is to get car that I'd like to see on my driveway and I don't mind working on (because she won't fix it)

Good point about black/manual being youth preference. But I do need manual because I want here to learn to drive manual. Also, less "car sharing" this way.
I don't think STL is much better than Chicago regards rust.. and I don't mind getting car shipped, just not sure where in US there is more of those and in better body condition..

What about engine choice? I definitely don't need any racing or power. Reliability and economy will be priority. After my E39 I definitely don't want any V8s :)

Ideally it should be clean, stock example.

P.S. How hard is manual swap? In case clean black low-mileage auto presents itself?M60 is a different animal in terms of reliability.

[GregT53]

I bought my son a 1995 E34 525 with 5 speed manual in black six years ago. It had 108K miles on it at the time. Now, 40K miles later the car still run flawlessly and looks great. He loves it and plans to keep it for many years to come, willing to rebuild the engine and repaint it when those times come. It's been fun helping him with repairs and upgrades, like installing a CD43 radio with Bluetooth,restoring the leather on the front seats, and installing a new headliner.

Some things to consider: if your daughter does not already know how to drive a manual, don't assume she will like it (nice thing about manual is it nearly eliminates people wanting to borrow it); the M50 engine with Vanos is rock solid and easy to work on (my friend, who is a an independent BMW with 40 years experience says it's the best engine BMW has made to date), and is easy on the gas; while we all like the E34, your daughter may think it looks too dated (my son gets lots of compliments on his); you'll have to work hard to find exactly what you're looking for, not just because manuals were pretty rare and finding a rust free example some 25 years later will require lots of spade work to know where the car has lived as most have changed hands several times. So, looking in the south does not necessarily guarantee rust free. Common rust spots are rockers, lower door edge, and jack points (especially). As you know, you are in for lots of restoration of rubber components due to the age.

Hope you can find one.

[XAlt]

I bought my son a 1995 E34 525 with 5 speed manual in black six years ago. It had 108K miles on it at the time. Now, 40K miles later the car still run flawlessly and looks great. He loves it and plans to keep it for many years to come, willing to rebuild the engine and repaint it when those times come. It's been fun helping him with repairs and upgrades, like installing a CD43 radio with Bluetooth,restoring the leather on the front seats, and installing a new headliner.

Some things to consider: if your daughter does not already know how to drive a manual, don't assume she will like it (nice thing about manual is it nearly eliminates people wanting to borrow it); the M50 engine with Vanos is rock solid and easy to work on (my friend, who is a an independent BMW with 40 years experience says it's the best engine BMW has made to date), and is easy on the gas; while we all like the E34, your daughter may think it looks too dated (my son gets lots of compliments on his); you'll have to work hard to find exactly what you're looking for, not just because manuals were pretty rare and finding a rust free example some 25 years later will require lots of spade work to know where the car has lived as most have changed hands several times. So, looking in the south does not necessarily guarantee rust free. Common rust spots are rockers, lower door edge, and jack points (especially). As you know, you are in for lots of restoration of rubber components due to the age.

Hope you can find one.I'd go with the hardline "either you'll learn on it, or you won't drive at all". 90% of the time, they'll take the former.

[GregT53]

True, but it does not work well with wives. It's how I came to own two, used E53 X5s, one a six speed manual and an automatic to replace it. Worked out because I love the manual and it replaced a can we gave away.

[katit2]

We had manuals only in family (now wife drives Odyssey - family got too big)
But we both (me and wife) on board with getting her started with manual. Less distractions when driving and less borrowing. I don't care about liking or disliking. As I said - if she doesn't like she can purchase her own and I will keep E34

I heard couple words now. M50, and problematic rust spots. I'm kind of ready for leather/interior restoration.

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I bought my son a 1995 E34 525 with 5 speed manual in black six years ago. It had 108K miles on it at the time. Now, 40K miles later the car still run flawlessly and looks great. He loves it and plans to keep it for many years to come, willing to rebuild the engine and repaint it when those times come. It's been fun helping him with repairs and upgrades, like installing a CD43 radio with Bluetooth,restoring the leather on the front seats, and installing a new headliner.

Some things to consider: if your daughter does not already know how to drive a manual, don't assume she will like it (nice thing about manual is it nearly eliminates people wanting to borrow it); the M50 engine with Vanos is rock solid and easy to work on (my friend, who is a an independent BMW with 40 years experience says it's the best engine BMW has made to date), and is easy on the gas; while we all like the E34, your daughter may think it looks too dated (my son gets lots of compliments on his); you'll have to work hard to find exactly what you're looking for, not just because manuals were pretty rare and finding a rust free example some 25 years later will require lots of spade work to know where the car has lived as most have changed hands several times. So, looking in the south does not necessarily guarantee rust free. Common rust spots are rockers, lower door edge, and jack points (especially). As you know, you are in for lots of restoration of rubber components due to the age.

Hope you can find one.

I have 1 year to look, hopefully I will find one. Body/paint is main priority

[ZUUD BYE]

I have 2 E34 for my daughters but both are auto Tragi-matics, they didn't want to learn to drive manuals. But both cars are nice, listed below in signature. Bought both at $2000 or under with shot suspension & steering. It takes some time to get them reliable enough to have your daughter rely on them. I would estimate and easy $2000 to $2700 in parts for each of them over the years since purchase for me to be comfortable with them, big one was full suspension, steering, drive train bushings front to back an easy $1500 pile of parts. But easy to work on, so much room under the car compared to the ///M3 and Z3.

Any one you buy you should be ready to do a very serious Inspection II Plus as likely the maintenance has been put off for a while. Pulse get the Bentley manual.

[Hofmeister]

I was given my 525 as my first car. 9 years and 80k later it still runs.
Do agree with zudd, buying a cheap one will take a while to get to full reliability. If you have the time then go for it as theyre not that dificult to work on

[katit2]

Speaking of price/cheap. I plan to spend up to $5k, should be able to get good example, right?

[ZUUD BYE]

It's a better starting point but it is a pre-OBD-I car so a special code reader is needed, plus even with a 1995 all the rubber & plastic (and BMW loves plastic) is 22 years old: brake lines, fuel lines, vacuum lines, heater hoses, likely motor & Tranny mounts etc. Not trying to scare you off, just be realistic. I love the 2 E34's I have but I'm sticking with I6 and not venturing into the V8's as cost can go even higher.

The all work right up to the point they stop, they they're broken.
Learn to love to work on them, it's a BMW.

[kouks]

If you can find one in good shape with about 150,000 miles or less, and the I6 engine, then you should be able to get it for about $3k and have an extra $2k for updates and repairs.

If you are not a mechanical type person and don't want to be, then go get a Japanese car. Old BMWs are maintenance nightmares sometimes.

Mine is at 234,000 miles and I am in the middle of a complete rebuild. I gave it to my daughter, but I only let her drive it in town, no long distance drives yet. I spent about $2,000 rebuilding the top end of the engine and replacing everything I think looked too old, complete coolant system re-do also. Amazingly, the trans is still original and still drives very well. The trans can make 250,000 with care, so that's one reason I don't let it go on long trips...I'm afraid it may explode at any moment.

I'm now working on the interior.

My daughter loves the car. It drives smartly and is very maneuverable, but not too much power which makes me comfy (the V8s have plenty of power, but much more luvin required).

[B320i]

E36 isn't quite the same category, but a 320i is presently my first car, and has been for about 3.5yrs now. Have slowly learned a bit of DIY as I've gone along, and will do more over time as Indies are rather expensive in Australia (AU$150/hr for labour has made both visits to an Indy a rather pricey affair for only routine work).

Seems you are already an experienced DIY'er on the E39, so I'd say the E34 would be simpler and perhaps a bit more 'spacious' in the engine bay. Less electrikery components, too. So that certainly works in your favour.
Thankfully, you aren't in a market that got the 520i, which has the same 2.0L Inline 6 M50 my car has. If you were in such a market, I'd advise you to steer clear - both are saddled with a Siemens MS40.1 DME. Information on this DME and the wiring is difficult to locate, and the sensors, if you can find OE ones, come at a very hefty premium. Its the one thing I dislike about my E36. (I've put this here, as people from European markets will invariably read this thread, its a tidbit for their benefit).

The E36 isn't quite as sturdy as the E34, from what I've heard, but keep an eye out for dodgy trim pieces.
I've noted the tops of my B-pillars have started to crack, the glovebox is slowly ungluing itself, and the leather-like material on the doorcards is also ungluing due to shrinkage. Everything else, after nearly 24yrs is still intact and all working as it should with 216,000km (134k miles) under the belt.

It could be worth investing in a parts car, depending on how serious you are on this. Don't know what manuals made it into the E34, but the Getrag don't seem to get a lot of love here on Bimmerforums, seemingly because they cannot be rebuilt, or take additional power from mods.
The M50 engines can be prone to cracked heads if overheated even slightly, VANOS seals can be a concern, as can the lower chain tensioner unit.

[AHenry014]

I would personally go for an m50/5spd car. The engine doesnt require any more than basic maintenance, i.e. valve cover gasket, belts, cooling components. As for the car around it, assume right off the bat that it will need a full front suspension and steering replacement. I went for this Meyle front kit and it worked great for the many years i had it on the car:
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-control-arm-kit-front-e34-heavy-duty-e34fcakitmy
You can also opt for the 16pc kit here:
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-16-piece-control-arm-tie-rod-kit-e34-meyle-e3416piece-my
It has all of the front suspension components listed in the 10pc kit, but also includes rear sway links, dogbones/pitman arms, and subframe bushings. It will also likely need the rear subframe bushings, for which i always suggest the powerflex poly bushings for ease of installation alone. I would evaluate the shocks and their mounts as well.

If you say you can do all the work yourself, its a piece of cake, just takes time. As always, budget for an alignment as well.

Going for a '95 car gets you a wide nose/facelift grill (IMO better looking than the narrow nose), painted lower bumpers, and side skirts. I believe this also gets you gathered leather door cards.

[ZUUD BYE]

Speaking of price/cheap. I plan to spend up to $5k, should be able to get good example, right?

Quick view of Craigslist in the extended STL area show only 2 from Private Owners, an '89 535i White miles not listed and '90 535i Black 176K miles both have the I6 M30 engine (very easy to maintain still with distributor, rotor, plug wires and V-belts still) but both an Auto tranny and list at $2800 & $2500.

https://decatur.craigslist.org/cto/6036667682.html
https://carbondale.craigslist.org/cto/6061781991.html

Dealer sales pops up a V8 '94 540i Green Automatic asking $3999 but just 79k miles. Me personally I tend to buy from private sellers as dealers will do the minimum fix for the maximum price and you still tend to end up replacing / fixing the typical E34 issues on a 23 year old car.

https://stlouis.craigslist.org/ctd/6038075775.html

[ross1]

Quick view of Craigslist in the extended STL area show only 2 from Private Owners, an '89 535i White miles not listed and '90 535i Black 176K miles both have the I6 M30 engine (very easy to maintain still with distributor, rotor, plug wires and V-belts still) but both an Auto tranny and list at $2800 & $2500.

https://decatur.craigslist.org/cto/6036667682.html
https://carbondale.craigslist.org/cto/6061781991.html

Dealer sales pops up a V8 '94 540i Green Automatic asking $3999 but just 79k miles. Me personally I tend to buy from private sellers as dealers will do the minimum fix for the maximum price and you still tend to end up replacing / fixing the typical E34 issues on a 23 year old car.

https://stlouis.craigslist.org/ctd/6038075775.html

Re the second car. AWFUL wheels and the photo of it having the hood up and two guys leaning in doesn't bode well. What are folks thinking when they post a photo that screams THIS CAR NEEDS WORK!

[ZUUD BYE]

Re the second car. AWFUL wheels and the photo of it having the hood up and two guys leaning in doesn't bode well. What are folks thinking when they post a photo that screams THIS CAR NEEDS WORK!

I thought the same thing with the big wet puddle running down the driveway!! Couple of Ye'has selling their Bimmer.
OBO $400

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Speaking of price/cheap. I plan to spend up to $5k, should be able to get good example, right?

katit2 this will come in handy no matter when you purchase, begin your studies now.... E34 Bentley Manual
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B80wFxXkIygxY3kzM0ZrelNXQ3M/edit

[XAlt]

https://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/cto/6000434735.html

Found a real nice E32 735i\5.

[katit2]

Nice! But why all of the cars from that era have to be green? :) I already had 1993 Audi UrS4 in green

[ZUUD BYE]

Nice! But why all of the cars from that era have to be green? :) I already had 1993 Audi UrS4 in green

LOL, I thought they were all Green or Gold for the longest time!

- - - Updated - - -


https://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/cto/6000434735.html

Found a real nice E32 735i\5.

That is nice, a lot done to it already.

[Layne]

Sounds like a good idea to me. They only sold about 800 if I recall 535i manuals in the US, but they aren't that hard to find if you're willing to travel. Almost always black, white, or red. Don't think I've ever seen a green one. Usually a little rougher condition than other models (they only made them up to 93, plus I think they get abused a little more). The major downside to this engine is the fuel mileage.

The advice to find a 525i instead is good. Nothing at all wrong with the M50 engines. Most are 1995 models, many are green. There are plenty of manuals, but many thousands more automatics. On any given day, there's 10-20 525i's on craigslist, and one might be manual. You need to avoid the M20 engine, which means 1989, 90, and I think some 91 525i's. The M20 is basically a smaller version of the M30 (535i engine) so it's pretty durable, but it gives you the lousy gas mileage without the power of the M30. I'm sure you're familiar with it in the E30's. It's just not enough engine for 3800lbs of car. The M50 (24 valve that replaced the M20) comes in non-vanos for 91-92 and vanos after that. Not much difference really except when you're buying parts. Both are good, durable, and with good gas mileage. 1995's are by far the most common, so that's probably what you would end up with. They have better door panels than previous years, but many electrical annoyances that previous years don't have. I personally think 93-94 are the peak years for E34's.

[ZUUD BYE]

Sounds like a good idea to me. They only sold about 800 if I recall 535i manuals in the US, but they aren't that hard to find if you're willing to travel. Almost always black, white, or red. Don't think I've ever seen a green one. Usually a little rougher condition than other models (they only made them up to 93, plus I think they get abused a little more). The major downside to this engine is the fuel mileage.

The advice to find a 525i instead is good. Nothing at all wrong with the M50 engines. Most are 1995 models, many are green. There are plenty of manuals, but many thousands more automatics. On any given day, there's 10-20 525i's on craigslist, and one might be manual. You need to avoid the M20 engine, which means 1989, 90, and I think some 91 525i's. The M20 is basically a smaller version of the M30 (535i engine) so it's pretty durable, but it gives you the lousy gas mileage without the power of the M30. I'm sure you're familiar with it in the E30's. It's just not enough engine for 3800lbs of car. The M50 (24 valve that replaced the M20) comes in non-vanos for 91-92 and vanos after that. Not much difference really except when you're buying parts. Both are good, durable, and with good gas mileage. 1995's are by far the most common, so that's probably what you would end up with. They have better door panels than previous years, but many electrical annoyances that previous years don't have. I personally think 93-94 are the peak years for E34's.

All True, but man does that straight 6 M30 3.5 Liter have some legs on the highway, she fly's with ease.

[katit2]

Sounds like a good idea to me. They only sold about 800 if I recall 535i manuals in the US, but they aren't that hard to find if you're willing to travel. Almost always black, white, or red. Don't think I've ever seen a green one. Usually a little rougher condition than other models (they only made them up to 93, plus I think they get abused a little more). The major downside to this engine is the fuel mileage.

The advice to find a 525i instead is good. Nothing at all wrong with the M50 engines. Most are 1995 models, many are green. There are plenty of manuals, but many thousands more automatics. On any given day, there's 10-20 525i's on craigslist, and one might be manual. You need to avoid the M20 engine, which means 1989, 90, and I think some 91 525i's. The M20 is basically a smaller version of the M30 (535i engine) so it's pretty durable, but it gives you the lousy gas mileage without the power of the M30. I'm sure you're familiar with it in the E30's. It's just not enough engine for 3800lbs of car. The M50 (24 valve that replaced the M20) comes in non-vanos for 91-92 and vanos after that. Not much difference really except when you're buying parts. Both are good, durable, and with good gas mileage. 1995's are by far the most common, so that's probably what you would end up with. They have better door panels than previous years, but many electrical annoyances that previous years don't have. I personally think 93-94 are the peak years for E34's.

Yes, from reading and searching I think I know what I should look for:
1995 525 Manual (with Vanos)
Not green, any other color.

After maintaining E39 I know what it takes and I can pay extra for good condition/maintained one. I know work will be needed, but paying couple extra K will get me way ahead.
I get issue with plastic, but body condition is probably the most important for me. I can work on engine, suspension, etc. I want to try some interior work, leather restoration. I just don't want to deal with body issues and rust. I'm pretty sure travel for a good one will be required.

[XAlt]

Yes, from reading and searching I think I know what I should look for:
1995 525 Manual (with Vanos)
Not green, any other color.

After maintaining E39 I know what it takes and I can pay extra for good condition/maintained one. I know work will be needed, but paying couple extra K will get me way ahead.
I get issue with plastic, but body condition is probably the most important for me. I can work on engine, suspension, etc. I want to try some interior work, leather restoration. I just don't want to deal with body issues and rust. I'm pretty sure travel for a good one will be required.I wouldn't count out the 535 or 540 just yet. M30's last till the end of time, and the M60 is a tank as well, even they tend to be leaky.

[Layne]

Hey look there's one now

https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/cto/6062681986.html

[katit2]

I wouldn't count out the 535 or 540 just yet. M30's last till the end of time, and the M60 is a tank as well, even they tend to be leaky.

See, I had M62 already.
1st, it's for daughter, I don't need extra ponies for her.
2nd, I had my share of maintenance of V8 and I don't feel like doing it anymore. OTOH I did have M54 in wife's X5 and it was really nice to work on and essentially trouble-free


I like the idea of smaller more fuel-efficient engine for a kid. And more space to work around it. I think I6 cars drive better too.

[Layne]

See, I had M62 already.
1st, it's for daughter, I don't need extra ponies for her.
2nd, I had my share of maintenance of V8 and I don't feel like doing it anymore. OTOH I did have M54 in wife's X5 and it was really nice to work on and essentially trouble-free


I like the idea of smaller more fuel-efficient engine for a kid. And more space to work around it. I think I6 cars drive better too.

All very valid points. Just a couple notes:

The M62 has a timing chain guide that puts that engine into the "POS" category. The M60 has a much better one and is thus not a POS. Other than that, they're pretty much exactly the same. All the plastic parts and rubber gaskets are pretty much the same on an M50 though, they're just easier to get to. The M30 has one advantage there, no plastic parts on the engine (still has plastic heater valves etc) and NO rubber gaskets. Nothing but good ol' fashioned asbestos (not really asbestos).

What year did you find the M54 to be trouble free? I wouldn't consider that to be true currently. In fact I think it's dangerously close to that POS category, and not at all easy to work on when it's installed in an E46. Luckily, everything wrong with the M54 was a later addition and the M50 doesn't have it. They are very solid.

[katit2]

All very valid points. Just a couple notes:

The M62 has a timing chain guide that puts that engine into the "POS" category. The M60 has a much better one and is thus not a POS. Other than that, they're pretty much exactly the same. All the plastic parts and rubber gaskets are pretty much the same on an M50 though, they're just easier to get to. The M30 has one advantage there, no plastic parts on the engine (still has plastic heater valves etc) and NO rubber gaskets. Nothing but good ol' fashioned asbestos (not really asbestos).

What year did you find the M54 to be trouble free? I wouldn't consider that to be true currently. In fact I think it's dangerously close to that POS category, and not at all easy to work on when it's installed in an E46. Luckily, everything wrong with the M54 was a later addition and the M50 doesn't have it. They are very solid.

M62: I did change chain guides around 170k(?) but only because I had to replace chain cover gaskets (leaks). This engine had 240k on it when I sold car. And it wasn't using any oil. But other than replacing chains, guides at 170k all leaks just got me. And it was hard to work around it. And it's X2 of everything. More coils, more spark plugs, more valve cover gaskets.

From top of my head - valley pan gasket - twice in my ownership, valve cover gaskets - 3x. Air leaks - intake gaskets. Oil pan leaking, seals leaking. Something else - don't remember, but list is long :) Nothing stopped car from being DD though. It never stopped.

M54 trouble-free because I didn't have much work in it. We got it with 40k and sold with 120k. Because of factory oil intervals when I got it - it was already using 1qt/1k. Other than that - in 80k I did only 3 things:
1. Cracked intake boot (cheap)
2. DISA flap (expensive but easy DIY)
3. Leaking oil pedestal (or whatever filter housing where it mounts to block) - worst one but cheap :)

In X5 there is plenty of space to work around.

Sold at 120k because I needed 3k+ to put into it right away. All suspension was shot and cooling needed overhaul

[XAlt]

All very valid points. Just a couple notes:

The M62 has a timing chain guide that puts that engine into the "POS" category. The M60 has a much better one and is thus not a POS. Other than that, they're pretty much exactly the same. All the plastic parts and rubber gaskets are pretty much the same on an M50 though, they're just easier to get to. The M30 has one advantage there, no plastic parts on the engine (still has plastic heater valves etc) and NO rubber gaskets. Nothing but good ol' fashioned asbestos (not really asbestos).

What year did you find the M54 to be trouble free? I wouldn't consider that to be true currently. In fact I think it's dangerously close to that POS category, and not at all easy to work on when it's installed in an E46. Luckily, everything wrong with the M54 was a later addition and the M50 doesn't have it. They are very solid.None of them are really in the "POS" category. But really, I don't know why they tried doing the single row timing chain after learning what happened with the Mercedes M116 and their own S38...

Anyways, the old vid of an M60B30 filled with liquid glass in the crankcase.

https://youtu.be/3SXA1oZnj98

[katit2]

I wouldn't count out the 535 or 540 just yet. M30's last till the end of time, and the M60 is a tank as well, even they tend to be leaky.

Agree. M30 is good idea. So it's 525 or 535

[AHenry014]

I wouldnt count out the non-vanos m50 in the 91-92 cars. There is absolutely nothing wrong with them, essentially being a simpler engine than its vanos younger brother. The ZF 5spd trans behind the m50nv is often considered more robust than its getrag counterpart behind the m50tu.

On the other hand, the early cars rarely featured traction control, but often had a LSD. The later cars were more probable to find an open diff and traction control, which might be more beneficial to a young driver.

[katit2]

So it sounds like any I6 will do. Just need to find good condition. With this age difference between 90 and 95 will not be as important as condition..

[XAlt]

So it sounds like any I6 will do. Just need to find good condition. With this age difference between 90 and 95 will not be as important as condition..Skip the M20.

[AHenry014]

Skip the M20.

This. '91 minimum with the m50.

[katit2]

I'm back. Think I found all original 94' 525i. 98k miles. Good color combo. The only problem it's auto.
How much car likd this should cost? Current owner doesn't have any records but overall condition matches woth mileage. CA car with no rust at all.

i figured I can always find dead manual for <$1k and do a swap. But I think it might be even better to teach my daughter on auto.

thoughts?

[sbeckman7]

Maybe 4-4500 if it's really clean and mechanically sound? I would get any car inspected by a mechanic if you're really planning on buying it.

P.S. My first car was the red 1989 535i 5 speed seen below and I still have it 7 years later. It was a fantastic first car for me, as someone who loves cars in general, and I can tell you that a well cared for E34 has all the traits of quality, safety, and reliability you're looking for. I average about 18mpg with the 3.5L engine but I don't like to shift before I have to if you know what I mean :)


https://youtu.be/C5wXZ7IbWME

[moroza]

I'm back. Think I found all original 94' 525i. 98k miles. Good color combo. The only problem it's auto.
How much car likd this should cost? Current owner doesn't have any records but overall condition matches woth mileage. CA car with no rust at all.

i figured I can always find dead manual for <$1k and do a swap. But I think it might be even better to teach my daughter on auto.

thoughts?

My opinion is that I would not recommend an E34 for a first car. First cars should be 1. moderately-powered, because young drivers, 2. front-wheel drive, because they're easier to not stuff ass-first into things, especially in the winter, 3a. tin cans, for no false sense of security, and 3b. tin cans, for proper later appreciation of refined cars. I loathe electronic nannies so much that I rewired/deleted the ASC on mine, but I can see how it'd be useful for a novice to get a warning light when they just did something that, if not for the nanny, would have ruined their day, their car, or worse.

I'm also a die-hard manual driver, but if this is a true beginner we're talking about - if we're still in the cones-in-a-parking-lot phase - an automatic is an easier learning curve and, depending on her personality, may encourage gradual car enthusiasm rather than scaring her off. If she's graduated to driving with traffic and has a basic grasp of pedal and steeringwheel technique, go for the manual for reasons you previously stated.

No US-spec E34 is going to be economical, that is, better than 25mpg in mixed driving. They're all pretty reliable IF MAINTAINED (and honestly, not as dreadful as some other German cars even if they have been neglected a bit). All will be easier to work on and with equal or better-quality parts compared to your E39. 535i sucks gas (mine did ~15 city, 22 highway, 18 combined). 540i sucks gas (my 544 does ~15 city, 24 highway, 20 combined, on premium) and is more power than a novice driver should have. 89-90 525i... no personal experience but I'd consider it. About 140hp in a 3500# car. Just be aware that it's about the only BMW engine with a timing belt. 91-95 525i is the best all-around.

A manual swap is pretty easy. It's all plug-n-play, except for one wire that needs to be grounded to get rid of a TRANS PROGRAM message (which doesn't prevent the car from driving).

10 years ago, E34s with less than 100k seemed uncommon. Now, I see them popping up on a regular basis. I don't get it. But in any case, the years are a more decisive factor for the actual car's condition - and for the expense its maintenance will incur - than the mileage. Its maintenance history is in turn more important than that. Other than body/paint, mine with 265k on the clock is in better shape than most cars with half its age and mileage, but the initial build in late '09/early '10 was something like 1500 hours and well into five figures of dollars.

Side note on the M62: I've had mine for 7 years and 53k+ miles. In that time it's seen two coolant flushes, two sets of NGK sparkplugs, and five oil changes, all top-shelf full-synthetic. It now has something like 210k on the original block, heads, and headgaskets. Every last seal except the headgaskets was replaced with Victor Reinz (OEM) parts when the engine was out dangling on a stand, as was the chain U-guide, which is an idiotic downgrade of the M60's idler gear. The upper timing cover gaskets were a PITA, requiring a special tool to clamp the covers down. I simulated the tool using a fat friend. One of these covers has had a very slow seep since day 1, and that's all this engine has ever leaked in my time with it. Oh, and the intake boot cracked in a few places (it came from a junkyard car anyway). My experience has been that if you seal them right the first time - perhaps every 100k? - M62s hold their liquor just fine.

[katit2]

I forgot about RWD. Been racing go karts since 10yo and can't stand FWD myself. Maybe winter tires and some training will help? I find RWD easier to drive.

My M62 was resealed once. But head cover gaskets 3 times, valley pan gasket 2 times. Sold at 230k with small dip from valve covers. Everything was done after I got car with 120k

[XAlt]

I learned on an Alfa 75 3L (gearbox in the back and enough horsepower) on garbage Italian mountain roads, teach your kid to deal with oversteer and they'll drive any car better.

That or you can find her an iX or some 5 banger Audi.

[Billyj]

Hey I'm just thinking out loud here but what about like an e39 528i. Might be a bit more complicated than the e34 but theyre really solid and not exactly fast. Steering and brakes are really well done on the e39...

On top of that you get a lot of airbags and a more modern alarm system+ much more aftermarket availability

One more note, I somewhat agree with moroza , probably easier to learn an auto then learn manual that's what I did and I fell in love.

Fwd is probably easier/safer to learn on, but... You get less control. If you're going to teach her how to initiate and break a power slide/drift then I think RWD is fine. If not get a fwd.

And lastly the tin can argument. If you give her a late 90s Ford taurus, she can destroy it with impunity (cause honestly who cares)
It's fwd
It's low on power
It won't get stolen
No false sense of safety


Now two years later help her get an old bimmer and she'll love it

[katit2]

Well. It's pretty much done deal, going to pick it up on Saturday. E39 is no go, I had one and also maybe it's more technologically advanced - I already repaired everything in E39 and not interested in doing it again :) I never had E34 and I want one so it is E34. If she doesn't like it - she can get her own car, I will keep it for myself as a companion to my F80.

I don't need aftermarket stuff and I don't need alarm system where I live. And yes, I will have whole year to teach her how to drive. Main thing I want to make sure she knows how to drive so she doesn't need to "know" how to control understeer...

[moroza]

Perhaps the single most important safety feature on a car is visibility (out of it). E34 is pretty good; E39 is not.

[Mykk]

I think an E34 would make for a great first vehicle. Sturdy, heavy, cruises smooth, comfy interior, plenty of room to move friends and stuff. I also think everyone should have a manual. Be sure to update that sound system for her :-)

[katit2]

How did you know?? First she asked if carr has AUX :)) didn't know it's important. How bad stock audio really is? Just replacing speakers with fresh ones will do?

re: Manuals
I monitor all around, see when I started this topic? They all abused with tons of miles, rust, etc. I figured it's OK to learn driving on AUTO, if she likes it later I can always do swap

[XAlt]

How did you know?? First she asked if carr has AUX :)) didn't know it's important. How bad stock audio really is? Just replacing speakers with fresh ones will do?

re: Manuals
I monitor all around, see when I started this topic? They all abused with tons of miles, rust, etc. I figured it's OK to learn driving on AUTO, if she likes it later I can always do swapQuality is nothing to write home about but it's not particularly bad either, at least on the 32. Tape deck rigged to 3.5mm jack = win


Perhaps the single most important safety feature on a car is visibility (out of it). E34 is pretty good; E39 is not.You well out of the E39, no real blind spot if you put an upside-down passenger mirror on the driver's end. Big windows are always a bonus though.

[moroza]

E34 stock audio is actually pretty good, though the bass is not up to modern standards. Supposedly, the speaker placement and "imaging" are really well thought-out. Even while driving, I hear details in music that don't show up on decent computer speakers, or headphones lesser than my Grado SR80's. I'm a musician but not an audiophile.

[XAlt]

Speaking of well-thought out.

window controls on center console>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on the door panel

[Billyj]

Speaking of well-thought out.

window controls on center console>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on the door panel
DUDE! So true... When I get in my e39 to drive it I love the steering but honestly my hand goes to the center console every time I want to roll down a window !

I honestly think the e34 is a better but less modern car. Everything about it (except maybe the hood) Is just planned so well

[katit2]

How can I put 3.5 jack on cassette deck? Any DIY?

[moroza]

Speaking of well-thought out.

window controls on center console>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on the door panel

I disagree. Reason 1: spilled drinks. Reason 2: less room for food and other items. The flat "table" in front of the shifter is part of what makes this a great roadtrip car, but they could've made it a bit bigger still with window controls in the door. Otherwise I agree it's a more elegant design and more intuitive.

[fo3]

Disagree as well. The Aussie falcon is superior to the aussie commodore in that regard. I prefer the window switches on the door like in the falcon and I hate the center window switches in the commodore that my ex owns (and yes the switches in her car are playing up - probably due to spilled drinks)
E: The center switches for the commodore or the e34 only make sense if the driver wants to play around with all the windows inc. the back ones. So if you are like that you'll like the center switches I guess. I usually only care about my window so I don't care for the switches being in the center.

[Forza]

I really enjoy serving as steward to my '92 535i/5; other than the OBC push-button selector on the turn signal stalk, literally everything on the car works. It appearance still looks great in all its original glory. Moreover, E34s are simply one of the most solid, durable cars BMW ever produced. Any Bimmer will obviously require more money to preventively maintain than something Japanese, but the E34 entry price is peanuts and they represent a great combination of the classic BMW driving experience with arguably better reliability than any other 5 series with comparable safety standards. There are other, more iconic BMW designs out there, but few more sensible as any entry-level vehicle for the marque.

[Billyj]

Speaking of well-thought out.

window controls on center console>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on the door panel


I'd like to reopen the argument of center window switches.
The fact that my right hand is already down by the shifter means I don't have to move it far to open all four windows.
Also it means the passenger has complete access to all four window controls (which is fine if you have adults in your car)

[fo3]

..Also it means the passenger has complete access to all four window controls (which is fine if you have adults in your car) Yeah that's what I meant before. No idea why I said handy for driver to play around with all 4 windows, because that applies to door mount switches anyway. I meant the only benefit to central mount is the front passenger can play around with all 4 windows.
I still think the disadvantage of taking up space that would otherwise be useful, and dirt and spills wrecking them is a big one.

[XAlt]

"Hey man can you open the windows?"
"Nah nevermind close them"
"Actually....."

[katit2]

Ok! She is home now...
606285

[sbeckman7]

Congrats!

[ross1]

Ok! She is home now...
606285

Congrats! Change that trans oil!

[katit2]

Thank you all!

Why do you think I need to change trans oil? I was thinking about letting it break, good excuse to swap for manual :) Or, this auto tranny worth something? It works great btw.

[ross1]

Thank you all!

Why do you think I need to change trans oil? I was thinking about letting it break, good excuse to swap for manual :) Or, this auto tranny worth something? It works great btw.

Ah, still no reason to let it fry in old ATF. It's worth several hundred if it works well. Plenty of these will die an early death thanks to "lifetime fill" and not all prefer a manual.
Hang around here long enough and you'll see the "my transmission blah, blah, blah" threads when another one bites the dust. Your auto could pay a significant portion of the manual swap if that's what you want.