What are the symptoms of bad clutch/pp?

[Dwin]

Ok so I posted up about the vibration I get on my clutch pedal when in neutral now have noticed it while driving also, on the freeways. Also to get into first and reverse I have to push the clutch pedal pass the stopper on the floor. I'm trying to figure this out hate this and I know it's not correct. Please help:help:help

[MIKYZZ4]

Throw out bearing, most likely.

[RuskiE39]

How many miles on the car? I'm at 140+k and feels fine.

[Dwin]

How many miles on the car? I'm at 140+k and feels fine.
This is a motor and tranny that I swapped in supposedly it has 37,xxx miles that's what the papers say.

- - - Updated - - -


Throw out bearing, most likely.
Not the throw out bearing that almost always starts making a noise

[Ed CT]

Pedal vibration? When you think about it, the pedal is only indirectly connected to the clutch via the main cylinder, slave cylinder, and the connecting fluid lines in between. If there's pedal vibration, maybe there's a bushing at the pedal hinge that needs attention.

If you need to go past the stopper to disengage the clutch, you may have air in the line. Find the clutch bleed procedure in the DIY section. If that doesn't help, maybe a new slave is due.

[snaponbob]

Ok so I posted up about the vibration I get on my clutch pedal when in neutral now have noticed it while driving also, on the freeways. Also to get into first and reverse I have to push the clutch pedal pass the stopper on the floor. I'm trying to figure this out hate this and I know it's not correct. Please help:help:help

Doesn't matter "what is wrong". If bleeding the slave cylinder does not cure it, you need to determine if the master or slave is bad. BUT, they would not cause your "vibrations". The most likely solution(s) will start with pulling the gearbox. SOMETHING has failed or worn out.

[MIKYZZ4]

Get under there and check pedal linkage for worn or loose bushings, I was a little hasty identifying problem as throw out bearing.Start with the most obvious, easy visual checks first-BEFORE pulling & tearing into things. www.realoem.com , look at the pedals group for your model.

[Dwin]

Ok so I replaced the slave cylinder with a new one and symptom are the same. I then put my old slave back and it didn't change and then the slave ended up failing. Thank GOD for hills and back roads drove it home without a clutch. Replaced with a new slave did bleed it three different ways found on here Edjacks way was one of them and no difference. So I have another MC here and it will be getting installed to see if that has failed, hopefully that is the issue. Will post after all is done......:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

[MIKYZZ4]

Doesn't matter "what is wrong". If bleeding the slave cylinder does not cure it, you need to determine if the master or slave is bad. BUT, they would not cause your "vibrations". The most likely solution(s) will start with pulling the gearbox. SOMETHING has failed or worn out.After your last update ,I have to agree with SnaponBob, it is internal, and points to clutch-pressure plate-throw out bearing. The good news is that I doubt it is the actual gearbox , but something that can be repaired with simply a clutch kit.

[snaponbob]

Given all that has been said, $5 on a failed pressure plate.

[Dwin]

Ok all is perfect all bushings are good system is bleed and still, pedal has to be pushed passed clutch pedal bump stop

[snaponbob]

Ok. $10. However, if the TOB was shifted 90 degrees OR the ears broke off, all this could be happening as well. I have seen both.

[Dwin]

Ok. $10. However, if the TOB was shifted 90 degrees OR the ears broke off, all this could be happening as well. I have seen both.

Yeah I'm really leaning towards the PP/Clutch throw out bearing is fine cause it only goes on one way. Plus when the clutch is pressed in there's no issue with gears going in. The issue is having to press the clutch in passed the stopper which to me means now the PP/Clutch is worn.

[snaponbob]

Yeah I'm really leaning towards the PP/Clutch throw out bearing is fine cause it only goes on one way. Plus when the clutch is pressed in there's no issue with gears going in. The issue is having to press the clutch in passed the stopper which to me means now the PP/Clutch is worn.

Understood.

How many miles on the clutch?

BTW, if the clutch is worn out, the pedal will (generally) rise. Is the clutch slipping in any gear? Assuming you pull the gearbox (and you will have to), grab a digital vernier caliper. A fresh clutch disc will measure about 9.2 mm. Once worn down to about 8mm it is a matter of time and it will slip. At 7.5 it is almost at the rivets. Slippage will happen between 8 and 7.5-7.7 mm.

If the first half of the clutch pedal (from the top) is useless it is hydraulics or a failed pressure plate. The exception would be a worn clutch fork or the pivot pin on the right side of the bell housing. BOTH should be replaced when you do a fresh clutch. Rockauto currently has LUK kits for $130 !!!! That is an OEM supplier. I have been racing my SCCA Solo E36 328is for over two seasons please street use with no issues - and I have NOT been kind to it !!! http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=4697784&cc=1313613&jsn=360 The pivot and clutch arm can be bought all over the place for cheap. DO them. YOU might think they are fine, but for under $30 you can be sure they are. (Ask me how I know. Wait ...... don't !!)

Between E30s and E36s, I have done at least a dozen clutches, and I have seen three failed pressure plates and they all exhibited what yours is doing. And then there was that clutch arm.

BTW, since you are in there, remove the clutch delay valve. They suck, and your pedal feel will improve. So will the clutch life span. Replace the guibo, ALL the shifter things that wear, and use a Derlin pivot where the bitch clip inserts. It's #13 and there are two. http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=DD53-USA-02-1998-E39-BMW-528i&diagId=25_0009 Also do a fresh #14 and a new shift shaft coupler #7. Inspect all the joints in the driveshaft for ANY stiffness or notchiness.

You don't want to do this twice. :mad ;)

[brritolkethesun]

I was searching through the forums, and I noticed this reply up fairly high and in the first result--I just wanted to offer a different opinion.

A vibration feeling through the clutch pedal as it is depressed is almost certainly a symptom of a failed pivot pin. This was the primary diagnostic marker of my pivot pin failure alongside sudden degradation of shift quality in my car. You could also move the car slightly with the clutch fully depressed by engaging a gear, demonstrating that the clutch is dragging from the cockamamie engagement angle.

The hydraulic fluid in the system is not compressible. Just as the spring force of the pressure plate is transmitted back to the clutch pedal, the failure of the pivot pin causes the fork to operate in a geometry that generates forces that could be likened to vibration as it goes through its range of motion--this is what you feel through the pedal. I've had throw-out bearing failure in several cars with hydraulic systems, and I could feel all sorts of fun mechanical destruction through the pedal.

That said, this design is frustrating. I wish BMW had just put the slave cylinder in the housing. You then have one moving part to act on the throw-out bearing, which is the piston. The pivot pin fails more often than the hydraulics ever would anyway.


Pedal vibration? When you think about it, the pedal is only indirectly connected to the clutch via the main cylinder, slave cylinder, and the connecting fluid lines in between. If there's pedal vibration, maybe there's a bushing at the pedal hinge that needs attention.

If you need to go past the stopper to disengage the clutch, you may have air in the line. Find the clutch bleed procedure in the DIY section. If that doesn't help, maybe a new slave is due.

[snaponbob]

I was searching through the forums, and I noticed this reply up fairly high and in the first result--I just wanted to offer a different opinion.

A vibration feeling through the clutch pedal as it is depressed is almost certainly a symptom of a failed pivot pin. This was the primary diagnostic marker of my pivot pin failure alongside sudden degradation of shift quality in my car. You could also move the car slightly with the clutch fully depressed by engaging a gear, demonstrating that the clutch is dragging from the cockamamie engagement angle.

The hydraulic fluid in the system is not compressible. Just as the spring force of the pressure plate is transmitted back to the clutch pedal, the failure of the pivot pin causes the fork to operate in a geometry that generates forces that could be likened to vibration as it goes through its range of motion--this is what you feel through the pedal. I've had throw-out bearing failure in several cars with hydraulic systems, and I could feel all sorts of fun mechanical destruction through the pedal.

That said, this design is frustrating. I wish BMW had just put the slave cylinder in the housing. You then have one moving part to act on the throw-out bearing, which is the piston. The pivot pin fails more often than the hydraulics ever would anyway.

I have a Saturn Sky Redline. The slave is mounted on the input shaft. I CAN'T BE BLED !!!!

As for the pin, having dealt with more than 60-70 3-series BMWs (30, 36, 46, and 90) I have yet to see a "failed" pivot. A bit worn, yes. But not broken. That said, certainly it does. The cure? Replace it. Depending on the car, I use either a quality plastic or a brass one.

[Liquidity]

I was searching through the forums, and I noticed this reply up fairly high and in the first result--I just wanted to offer a different opinion.

A vibration feeling through the clutch pedal as it is depressed is almost certainly a symptom of a failed pivot pin. This was the primary diagnostic marker of my pivot pin failure alongside sudden degradation of shift quality in my car. You could also move the car slightly with the clutch fully depressed by engaging a gear, demonstrating that the clutch is dragging from the cockamamie engagement angle.

The hydraulic fluid in the system is not compressible. Just as the spring force of the pressure plate is transmitted back to the clutch pedal, the failure of the pivot pin causes the fork to operate in a geometry that generates forces that could be likened to vibration as it goes through its range of motion--this is what you feel through the pedal. I've had throw-out bearing failure in several cars with hydraulic systems, and I could feel all sorts of fun mechanical destruction through the pedal.

That said, this design is frustrating. I wish BMW had just put the slave cylinder in the housing. You then have one moving part to act on the throw-out bearing, which is the piston. The pivot pin fails more often than the hydraulics ever would anyway.

It’s pretty obvious you don’t work on your car very often. I’ve also never seen a pivot pin fail but more importantly - slave cylinders on the input shaft are the worst invention ever. That’s what it’s like on a t56 as well. Not only are they a massive headache trying to bleed them, they also require you to remove the transmission to replace them. In a BMW (and I’m sure many others) this requires removing everything under the car. Please don’t become an engineer, it’s people like you that turn simple things into convoluted hair-pulling frustrating massive undertakings.

[snaponbob]

Christmas or not -- "It’s pretty obvious you don’t work on your car very often." You don't know squat about me. The work I do on my THREE BMWs (that I currently own, as well as the four others I have owned) is limited -- because I know how to service them. If they are put back together properly, they shouldn't need repairs "very often". Then there are the hundreds of Bimmers I have worked on for others over the past decades and almost ALL are repeat customers and referrals. Just so you have a clue, my work is everything from simple stuff (fluids, brakes, and irritating mechanical weak points) to complete track car builds (some from absolutely bare tubs).

I was not attacking YOUR post, but you sure were mine. Have a nice day.

[Liquidity]

Christmas or not -- "It’s pretty obvious you don’t work on your car very often." You don't know squat about me. The work I do on my THREE BMWs (that I currently own, as well as the four others I have owned) is limited -- because I know how to service them. If they are put back together properly, they shouldn't need repairs "very often". Then there are the hundreds of Bimmers I have worked on for others over the past decades and almost ALL are repeat customers and referrals. Just so you have a clue, my work is everything from simple stuff (fluids, brakes, and irritating mechanical weak points) to complete track car builds (some from absolutely bare tubs).

I was not attacking YOUR post, but you sure were mine. Have a nice day.




No one was talking to you. Someone clearly had way too much wine on Christmas morning.

[snaponbob]

No one was talking to you. Someone clearly had way too much wine on Christmas morning.

That's rather funny. YOU replied to a post that went up in 2016 !!!! And I'M drunk?? When you responded, the system sent me a notification.

Have a great day .... And make some coffee for yourself!!

[JimLev]

LOL, did someone get coal in their stocking for Christmas?
Hey Snapon, you haven’t been here in a long time.

[snaponbob]

LOL, did someone get coal in their stocking for Christmas?
Hey Snapon, you haven’t been here in a long time.

Can't happen. Chanukah for me. My guy schlepped a new Bell HANS prepped helmet for SCCA and NASA Time Trials. I -- ech cough snork -- HE found one.

As for not being "here", maybe not in this section, but in places where I needed to be. My 39 is running just GREAT, except for a light control module that goes bat sheeet crazy every so often. I unplug it, wait a minute, plug it back in, and it's fine. Just don't want to spend the bucks for a new module and the coding. (Eventually, I will for resale.) My focus is on the 04 M3 for some maintenance, freshening, and upgrades.

Sadly, forums can't convey voices and other "signals". Such is life in the digital world.

I average about 3 BMWs and month coming to me for any/everything. My van's tag reads BMW HLR. Some think that's "healer" (which does fit), but the intent is "hauler" as it does haul them in sometimes, and does haul my track car.

I'll message you.

[Angrywer]

Given all that has been said, $5 on a failed pressure plate. Hey man, I really hope you’re going to be my saving grace. On my 03 e39 m5 I did the clutch and pressure plate along with the rear main, through out bearing, and pilot bearing. I f’ed up the sprung pressure plate and had to take it all back apart and reset the springs and put it all back together. It worked like a charm. Drove it about 30 min got some food, came back out, and my clutch felt normal but wouldn’t do anything. I floated it back home and decided to f with it tomorrow. Got back in it in the morning and it was fine. Drove it for about 200 miles and it did it again in the parking lot of my school. Pumped the pedal a couple of times and it was fine. Nearly 1000 miles later I was in downtown Charleston and it happened again in gridlock traffic. Had to drive it 5 hours back home with no clutch. It’s been a couple of weeks and it hasn’t fixed itself this time. I switched the slave with the one on my 540 (which is brand new) and it was the same as the og poster described but still wouldn’t go into gear. All my friends are telling me I need a master but I think they are wrong. I think either the pressure plate is messed up somehow or the pp broke. Please tell me you have some insight on this. Also just some extra info. It happened gradually in Charleston over about 15 min, it went from clunking going into first to me having to pump it a couple times to get it to go in, then finally I would have to shut it off to put it in gear. I really hope you have an answer for this. Thanks in advance

[JimLev]

Sounds like you need to bleed the slave cylinder more. (See my note above)

[BimmerBreaker]

That could be a few things imo - bad clutch pivot pin, failed rubber line in the hydraulic system, or pressure plate. I'd check for the rubber line first, as that can be done with the trans installed in place. Pivot pin can be checked with trans removed but clutch assembly in place. But check the hydraulics before dropping the trans... A master failure would also merit inspection

[MIKYZZ4]

Going by your description I would say that appears to be a hydraulic problem.
I would start with a bleeding of the system, or better yet a flush and bleed of the entire hydraulic system.
Can't hurt and easily done.