High Speed Front End Vibration - Causes / Symptoms. Let's Discuss

[AquilaBMW]

I took my recently acquired M-Sport on an 800 mile trip and during the trip, I was experiencing high speed vibration from the front end. Days before, I had the wheels re-balanced as they were later found out to be out of balance. One wheel was over 1.0oz off balance which my wheel shop said was pretty bad.

After the balancing, the car drove much better. However, at speeds up to and above 70 MPH, there is still a vibration. It is sometimes pretty bad, however it has not had an negative impact on the overall driving of the car.

I have been doing some researching of my own to try to figure this out. This has included searching on the site for similar situations. There have been various things mentioned like control arms, bushings, tires, wheel bearings, etc. I thought it might be an idea to have a thread where we can all contribute to that will cover all the various potential issues and the solutions.

I will start by sharing my symptoms and then outlining the various potential culprits and information on them. If you'd like to contribute to the thread, please always use a sub heading in Bold so others can follow what you are posting about. Here Goes.


SYMPTOMS: From 0 MPH up to 65 MPH, the car drives fine. No shimmy, no vibration of any sort. Right around 70 MPH, a vibration starts to come into play. It seems more focused to the Right Side Front Wheel. As the speed increases, the vibration worsens or speeds up with the speed of the car. At around 90 MPH, it seems to smooth out a bit, but I attribute this to the speed of the oscillations - they are much closer now and so it feels smoother.

I use the term oscillation as that is what comes to mind while I am driving. In this car, it feels like vertical oscillations. It would be easy to right away blame the tire on that side as it has cupping on the outter thread. However, from what I have read, it could also be a number of other things causing this or that may have led to the tire suffering the early outter thread wear.

While driving, there are times the vibrations goes away - at a constant speed of 75 - 80 MPH, on Cruise Control. Say I am at 80 MPH and it is vibrating. It will sometimes suddenly stop and the car will be subliminally smooth. Then it comes back.

The car's steering is sharp and precise. The car does not wonder and it will track straight at 80 MPH with hands off the wheel. There is no shimmy or judders either while accelerating or braking. There is ZERO braking vibration or shakes. From 90 MPH down to 0 MPH.

While I can feel the vibration in the steering wheel, it is not the laterally movement usually associated with worn suspension parts. It is simply a vibration. It almost feels like a front wheel is skipping along the road which is quite possibly what is happening.

Based on these symptoms, I am now thinking it might be one or two or even all of the following:


TIE RODS: Bad tie roads caused a slight vibration on my wagon. The ball joint attaching the end to the wheel hub assembly was toast on the right side when I check it. Replacing it solved the problem there. I haven't checked the tie rods in this situation yet, I will report back when I do.


TIRE: As mentioned, the front right tire has cupping on the outter thread. I have experienced this in the past and have had wheel / tire shops tell me it can lead to moderate to severe vibration as speed. However, this is usually a symptom of something else wrong like suspension or bearings, etc. I will run a different set of wheels and tires on the car and see if this improves things. However, even if it does, I would be worried that the same fate might befall another set if there is still something else wrong.


SHOCKS / STRUTS: Sometimes, bad shocks can lead to vibration or even things like cupped tires. When the shocks are worn, the car will develop a bouncing effect when it hits bumps. This can leads to the tire "skipping" along the road and can create un-even tire wear. In really bad cases, while it is bouncing, you will get the shimmy effect in the steering wheel.


CONTROL ARMS / BUSHINGS: Most of us already know about the dreaded 55 MPH Shimmy that these cars can suffer from. So far, there are no signs of this. No shimmy, no shuddering, no vibration or shaking while braking - no matter how moderate or severe I am braking. Other than the vibration the car feels very, very planted on the road. While I mention these possibly symptom, it is not high on my list of suspects.


TIE RODS: As I mentioned above, my wagon once had a mild to moderate vibration at speed. I found out that the balls joints on the tie rod ends (especially the right side) were toast. Replacing the tie rods helped alleviate this issue significantly. I haven't had the chance to check on the tie rods on this car yet, I will report back once I do. This is not that high of a priority because in this case, the vibration feels very much like it is from vertical movement. I remember when it was the tie rods, the symptom felt more like swaying or wobble type effect with a bit of wandering.


WHEELS: The wheels were check and the they balanced out fine on a Road Force Machine.


TIRES: This is big possibility as there is cupping along the outter thread of the right front tire. They are Pirelli P-Zeros so I consider them to be above average quality tires. While the cupping may be contributing to the vibration, this is usually caused by other issues such as bad alignment, worn suspension, etc. So far, the seems to track straight, the alignment seems fine (though I haven't checked this yet). I plan on running another set of wheels on the car, but not for long even if it fixes the vibration. I still want to check on other associated parts.


WHEEL BEARINGS: This was a BIGGIE for me. I was sure at one point that I heard a slight grinding noise or pads rubbing slightly against the rotor. I have heard this kind of sound before though so it was initially no cause of alarm for me. From what I have been reading, bad bearing can cause vibrations - especially at speed. However, usually by the time they are causing vibrations they are completely toast and you would hear them grinding really bad.

There are various thoughts on bearing and how they can contribute to symptoms like vibrations. One constant thought is the noise associated with worn bearings. They will make a loud humming noise, especially at speed and the noise will be directly proportionate to the speed of the car. At lower speeds, one should also be able to pick up the sound of grinding. So far, the car has not exhibited any of these signs.

Other symptoms will be play in the wheel hub itself, meaning with the wheels off the ground you might be able to move the whole wheel vertically while holding it at 12 and 6 O'Clock. The car may also start experiencing a feeling of being "loose", steering will no longer feel precise and the car may wonder while driving in a straight line - similar to when a car trams over ruts when running wide tires.

I will be jacking up the car to check on the bearings this weekend and report back on that too.



This is what I have so far. Please share your thought, experiences and solutions. Also, please correct me if I am wrong anywhere. Hopefully, this can become a source of information for any others that might be experiencing something similar.

[auaq]

When I get a chance I'll try to put some of my input here as well M based on my understanding and on experience about E39/E38 suspension. Can't type a long post from phone.

[edjack]

Likely the tire. Even though you have staggered wheels, you s/b able to do a F-R swap as a test.

Tire cupping generally indicates a bad wheel bearing or worn shocks.

You don't mention the mileage on the car, or on the tires.

My car does the same thing, and the LF needs to be replaced: The belt is showing.

Tension strut bushings typically induce a shimmy when braking from freeway speed.

Do a 9-3 o'clock and 12-6 o'clock shake of the front wheels, whilst jacked up, to see if you can discern any play.

[Trainwreck914]

Subscribed.

[Mcdiver]

You have a fairly complete list. I think I would check that list completely and report back on the findings.

[johr34]

My car has the exact same thing. Shakes at 75-80, but I've replaced the control arms and tension struts, the front wheels were straightened, it balanced fine on a Hunter Road Force balancer, and I'm on new Michelin Pilot Super Sports... Subscribed.

[Dave Sal]

I've suffered from a mild vibration at speed and my first attempt at a solution was to replace the thrust arms last year. This stopped the common symptom of the ABS kicking in under braking at low speeds, but I still have a bit of high speed vibration. I've noticed that I do have some flat spotting with the Continental ExtremeContact DW tires which is noticeable for the first few minutes of driving if the car was parked overnight, especially in colder temps. I need to have the wheels checked for balance one of these days.

[Msport540]

Michael, I'm thinking you need to check out the wheel bearings on this one. Jack up the car and check the play, on a good note your steering wheel is looking goooood, just need to finish up the hand stitching.

[AquilaBMW]

@ auaq - Look forward to your input.


@edjack - I initially thought tire for sure too. However, I started thinking along the lines of a worn bearing as you mention too. I am pretty sure it's not the bushing. I have dealt with enough of those to know how they usually show up.

The car now has 120K, it had 118K when I got it. The tires are Pirelli P-Zeros with ample tread on them but I am not sure how many miles on them. Even if I replace the tires, and that make the problem go away, it will still be prudent to check the bearings and other parts otherwise I will just prematurely destroy the replacement tires.

I will do the checks and report back.


@Mcdiver - I will be doing that.


@jriley - Did the new tires help alleviate the symptom at all?


@Dave Sal - I'd say get the wheel balancing checked and let us know. I have heard about the flat spotting issue you mention. I am amazed any tire can settle that quickly.


@Msport540 - Hi JP! I will be checking out the bearings at my earliest chance. I am excited about this steering wheel - looking forward to seeing it man! Thanks!

[e34m50tu]

definitely curious as now my touring has developed the same symptoms.

[blackknight530i]

I have pretty much the same issue in my 530i, but I'm pretty sure mine is due to a bent wheel. It seemed to start up after I hit something on the interstate at about 75 MPH and blew out the tire on the rear left. I didn't notice any bends on that wheel though and have since had the tire replaced and there is no vibration in the seat at all, but rather it's all in the steering wheel. I think I hit the same thing with my front wheel, but it just ran over it, rather than hitting it on the side and gashing the tire like it did on the rear. I plan to get all four wheels checked for bends and repaired though. You might want to get yours checked as well.

[auaq]

After my recent front end 530i refresh the only issue I currently have is a very slight/minute vibrations coming in through the steering wheel at around 70mph and that's coming from my Sumitomo tires only. There is no doubt about it cause after switching from worn Michelins last year to these current Sumitomo I've immediately noticed some vibrations at different range of speeds. Right now any speed below or more than 70mph the ride is perfectly fine and smooth. I do not have any bent wheels mind you. The only thing that I haven't touched so far in the front end are the wheel bearings. Currently these are original 217k miles old bearings.

Talking about the relation between grinding noise and the wheel bearings, I've got to say that you're probably onto something here Michael. There have been times when I felt and heard a grinding noise in the 530i when I'm just coming to a complete stop and this depends how quickly do I stop the car. I've noticed it when I first bought the car back in 2011 at 111k mi. I initially thought it was probably the brakes but overtime I have replaced my front brakes a couple of times already. Pads and rotors. The guide pins have been greased as well and the brake calipers operate smoothly when the brakes are applied. I do not have any typical 'humming' or any 'whining' kind of noise from the bearings but I've definitely felt those subtle vibrations in the floor/chassis (it's actually hard to predict where it's coming from) and have heard the grinding noise as well. And this doesn't happen all the time but randomly. At one point I thought about worn center support bearing but I don't think this was it. Have changed the diff fluid a couple of years ago thinking that this might be the ultimate cause of it but nothing changed after the flush. I've also thought about my auto transmission but it was rebuilt by me back in 2013, IIRC. I have wiggled the wheels in every direction to suspect them but everything feels tight. I'm beginning to suspect worn wheel bearings despite the fact they don't 'hum' or 'whine' but grind when coming to a complete halt.

I think you've thoroughly covered on other areas M, and listed out all the possibilities and symptoms, and how to diagnose it as well. All great points so far. I could add few more items that I think we should also take into consideration such as the strut mounts and the upper and lower spring pads. Although they may not have a huge effect on all these symptoms but still in the end they do play a role in dampening any unwanted oscillations. One thing we may want to remind ourselves is that because of how rigid the E39 chassis is we feel and get more of road input/feedback. It's like we can feel every grain of the gravel, and, thus, we can feel more of the vibrations than in any other cars with worn suspension stuff and tires. I don't feel the same way when I'm driving the 05 Corolla. It too has got some steering wheel vibrations apparently speaking and in fact much worse than my 530i but it's coming from the tires. It's got some wear across the contact patch and also one wheel is slightly bent as well. Anyways, I think with the E39 suspension geometry (E38 is similar as well) and with the rigid chassis, we get more feedback whether through the steering wheel or in the floor or some place else in the chassis, and this makes us even more conscious of any odd behavior while driving and the need to find the root cause of it and try to fix the problem in the end.

[AquilaBMW]

I have pretty much the same issue in my 530i, but I'm pretty sure mine is due to a bent wheel. It seemed to start up after I hit something on the interstate at about 75 MPH and blew out the tire on the rear left. I didn't notice any bends on that wheel though and have since had the tire replaced and there is no vibration in the seat at all, but rather it's all in the steering wheel. I think I hit the same thing with my front wheel, but it just ran over it, rather than hitting it on the side and gashing the tire like it did on the rear. I plan to get all four wheels checked for bends and repaired though. You might want to get yours checked as well.

Based on what I am seeing, this problem is not isolated to just the 540's, it affects all models in the E39 model range. Also, I am not alone in this situation.

I had the wheels re-balanced and it improved things, but the long drive I took really exposed the vibrations. As I mentioned, it is at 70 MPH and above and that seems to be the similar threshold for most of us. Based on my experiences and what I have learned from Wheel and Tire pros, vibrations at that speed are usually wheel or tire related.

I had the experience where subtle cupping of the front tires on a 740 caused the same kind of issue. In your situation, it is quite possible your front wheel that went hit an object may have been knocked out of balance - could be a missing weight.


-----

Talking about the relation between grinding noise and the wheel bearings, I've got to say that you're probably onto something here Michael. There have been times when I felt and heard a grinding noise in the 530i when I'm just coming to a complete stop and this depends how quickly do I stop the car. I've noticed it when I first bought the car back in 2011 at 111k mi. I initially thought it was probably the brakes but overtime I have replaced my front brakes a couple of times already. Pads and rotors. The guide pins have been greased as well and the brake calipers operate smoothly when the brakes are applied. I do not have any typical 'humming' or any 'whining' kind of noise from the bearings but I've definitely felt those subtle vibrations in the floor/chassis (it's actually hard to predict where it's coming from) and have heard the grinding noise as well. And this doesn't happen all the time but randomly. At one point I thought about worn center support bearing but I don't think this was it. Have changed the diff fluid a couple of years ago thinking that this might be the ultimate cause of it but nothing changed after the flush. I've also thought about my auto transmission but it was rebuilt by me back in 2013, IIRC. I have wiggled the wheels in every direction to suspect them but everything feels tight. I'm beginning to suspect worn wheel bearings despite the fact they don't 'hum' or 'whine' but grind when coming to a complete halt.

I think you've thoroughly covered on other areas M, and listed out all the possibilities and symptoms, and how to diagnose it as well. All great points so far. I could add few more items that I think we should also take into consideration such as the strut mounts and the upper and lower spring pads. Although they may not have a huge effect on all these symptoms but still in the end they do play a role in dampening any unwanted oscillations. One thing we may want to remind ourselves is that because of how rigid the E39 chassis is we feel and get more of road input/feedback. It's like we can feel every grain of the gravel, and, thus, we can feel more of the vibrations than in any other cars with worn suspension stuff and tires. I don't feel the same way when I'm driving the 05 Corolla. It too has got some steering wheel vibrations apparently speaking and in fact much worse than my 530i but it's coming from the tires. It's got some wear across the contact patch and also one wheel is slightly bent as well. Anyways, I think with the E39 suspension geometry (E38 is similar as well) and with the rigid chassis, we get more feedback whether through the steering wheel or in the floor or some place else in the chassis, and this makes us even more conscious of any odd behavior while driving and the need to find the root cause of it and try to fix the problem in the end.

Asim - I did a slight edit of your post as these parts were a gem. Today, I tracked down the slight grinding noise I was hearing on my car. It turned out to be a new pad slightly rubbing on the rotors which is not un-common. I have Owl like listening, so every odd noise it like a magnified issue to me.

CENTER SUPPORT BEARING (CSB). I have been in and around cars that had this issue. What I found was that at around 45 MPH, there was a very prominent oscillating vibration directly beneath the car. It did not transmit as much to the steering wheel, it was more like the entire body of the car was vibrating and it would get worse with speed. Depending on how bad the CSB is, at some point you will actually hear the U-Bolt joint clanking a bit beneath your car. A similar symptom would occur if you had a bad CV Joint at the Rear Differential or a broken differential mount where the drive shaft is now being moved around by a loose rear end.

WHEEL BEARINGS & GRINDING NOISE / HUM: I think we BMW owners may be lucky, or unlucky depending on how you look at it. I am finding quite often that people have been able to drive their cars for quite a distance with bad bearings. They get to the point where the actual ball bearings literally start to fall apart or the whole bearing assembly starts to weld itself into the hub assembly due to excess heat from friction. Of course, you then hear about the hell the owner has to go through to replace the bearing. For some reason, unlike most other cars - these bearing don't suffer catastrophic failures while driving. You rarely hear of an E39 loosing it's wheel on the highway because the wheel bearing decided to explode. Sadly, it also means people are able to drive them for quite a while with bad bearings.

We have to discern between Brake and Bearing noise though. What I find is that sometimes new brakes will make a subdued whoosh, whoosh noise. Think or something like an aluminium scouring pad gently brushing against metal.

The bearing on the other hand make a pure grinding noise. Also, they tend to have a longer continuity of noise unlike the Whoosh Whoosh of brakes / pads. The bearing just make a constant grinding noise. Eventually, that noise becomes a almost like a howl / slash hum.

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From what I have found out, the general industry life expectancy of a wheel bearing assembly is 80K - 100K. I wonder if quite a number of us are driving around with worn wheel bearing assemblies that are just not showing typical signs of being worn out.

I remember helping Aryana replace his front wheel bearings - it actually wasn't too bad on the 530i. I hope he gets a chance to peek in on this thread to share his experience. Maybe he can share the symptoms he was experiencing that made him replace the bearings.

Due to the fair amount of people experiencing this high speed vibrations, I suspect there has to be a common culprit to all of us. We all can't have bad front tires. And even if we did, then what is causing this premature thread wear on the tires where it is manifesting itself as cupped tires.

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To report back on my car. Today, I jacked it up and checked for play. With the front end raise, and with me manipulating the front wheels - individually - from the 12 & 6 O'Clock positions, I could not induce any play. I would actually start compressing the shock before the wheel would move at all.

From the 9 & 3 O'Clock position, I could induce the slightest of movement - we are talking of barely 1/2 an inch of play with felt more like I was actually pushing against the actual control arm bushings.

I crawled under the car, I much to my pleasant surprise, most of the suspension look like they were either fairly new or the car was barely driven. The Upper Control Arm Ball Joint on the Passenger side had a small tear in the rubber cover. That was it though. The Tie Rod ends were intact and looked to be in good order. Same with the infamous Control Arm bushing. No tears or separations in them.

I checked on both front tires again and noticed that they both had the same kind of premature wear - on the outter thread area. Only thing I can think of at the moment is that the alignment is off and the car is possibly suffering a little toe-in.

[auaq]

Yes, I have heard that 'whoosh' kind of sound too when you install new pads and rotors but it eventually goes away later on.

I think it's hard to pinpoint or suspect a bad/worn wheel bearing in our cars. When the car is jacked up in the air I can spin the wheel fine and it doesn't emit any noises what so ever (except for pads rubbing against the rotors only) nor does it show any sign of axial movement at all as if it is loose. Even at current 217k mi it still feels tight, straight and true. This grinding noise is really hard to predict where it's coming from but so far my senses tell me it's most likely those bearings. I can't think of anything else right now. Like I've said this only happens when I come to a stop, and how quickly or gradually do I stop, and it happens occasionally. Granted my entire rear end is still all original. Nothing has been replaced back there. Only the front end. Yet, I do not believe the rear end has got anything to do with it.

The vibrations at 70+mph definitely seems to indicate towards tires being bad if all else has been replaced. At least this has been my experience so far. However, few still report it's back even with brand new tires installed and everything being road force balanced. To me it seems that sticking with great, top notch quality brand of tires is the only solution to our problem. Before Michelins I had Conti DW and they were terrible. While others who have had great experience with these Conit tires I didn't sadly speaking. I had vibrations not only at ~70mph but also in the range of 50-60mph. Didn't had this problem when I switched to Michelins. Now I have Sumitomo and it's only acting at exact 70mph where I can feel slight vibrations in the steering wheel. Otherwise, the ride is smooth at other speeds.

Yeah, I think you need to get an alignment check. It does sound like it's toed-in.

[AquilaBMW]

UPDATE:

STEP 2 - Changed Wheels / Tires: Well, ugh! I borrowed the wheel / tire set up from my M5 today. Surprise, surprise - no change. In fact, I think due to the harder tire and short side wall, the effects were more pronounced with the M5 set up.

So.... starting to lean back towards worn bearings or tie rod ends. I think I will start with the tie rod ends as the car will need alignment once those are replaced anyway. Or maybe just throw cash at the car as BMW's demand and replace both tie rod ends and wheel bearings too.

Considering that quite a few of us with cars with over 100K are having this issue, my belief that this symptom is not just tire related is getting stronger.

More to come.

[champaign777]

These cars are getting older ,many part involved here as more you fix as better car drive ;)
In my case when i bought my silver 530i in 2010 with 70k miles car had vibration
Long story short : every time i fixed / replaced something i was more close to any other cars on the road with same mileage
We talked about this many times , E39 they all have vibration , some are more , some are less .
These are parts which i replaced on my car and which improved car handling / reduced vibration :
OEM ! ( i will repeat OEM ) rims , as less diameter as better
New tires from known companies like Conti or Michelin
Road Force Balance , all numbers below 12 LB
Good Struts / Shocks ( Koni Yellow in my case )
All new suspension parts ( not china )
New steering rack
New Brake pads/ rotors
New Front / rear bearings
New Brake Calipers
Shaft drive bushings
Diff bushings
Exhaust bushings

After market sway bars / strut bars looks like also help here
Wrong torque on suspension parts and you are looking for a new post on bimmerforum under same vibration topic
Hope it helps :)

[AquilaBMW]

Champaign - Thanks for the input. The question now is whether you have ZERO vibration or if there is still some vibration?

That list of parts in all honesty could have bought you another car depending on where you sourced the parts from.

[champaign777]

I am 100 % vibration free but this was a long way to go and a high cost

[AquilaBMW]

Thanks for the update / response Champaign. I don't really have an update with regard to my car. I don't drive it at all right now as I have a long trip coming up and I'm more focused on that at the moment.

[Trainwreck914]

Any update

[AquilaBMW]

Any update

I unfortunately have no update with regard to my car. It has since been sold before I went on my cross country trip.

[BimmrMeUpSnotty]

It was the E39 nut behind the steering wheel....

[scottieducati]

It was the E39 nut behind the steering wheel....

Guess I'll have to take up the bar.... been chasing a vibration that's driving me up a wall.

Mostly felt at ~80mph. At some times it feels like it's in the back / hatch area, and at some times the steering wheel has a vibration in it. Not the back and fourth "shimmy" but definitely felt in the wheel, and also under the seat at times.

Had just done a WaveTrac install out back, subframe out and full going through of all bushings. Replaced CV, inspected the flex disc, etc. Play checked everywhere and none found. Mix of OEM, HD rubber and Poly throughout. New Lemforder front arms (4 of them) with PF bushings. Had first gone back to the shop with worse vibrations, rechecked wheels for balance and did 4 new rotors, which helped immensely, but it had previously been smooth on the brakes (rebuilt calipers last year, ECS brass slide kit), and is now smooth on the brakes *even if getting on the brakes while the vibration is there*.

It comes and goes, can persist though pavement changes or bumps. If I had to nit pick (and shit, it feels like mind games at this point) I'd say there's a slight tendency for it to be worse when applying a little pressure to the right on the steering wheel. The car could drive up a grade just fine, crest a hill, then come back over the top and the vibration would appear. No discernible difference loading the car left vs. right or on vs. off throttle. Vibration can exist when left in neutral with clutch out and coasting, even.

If I can't dig something up my approach would be new driveshaft / csb, and then to proceed to wheel bearings....

[RuskiE39]

Center link.

[scottieducati]

PO did an M5 steering box and indicated new links were used, but I've already replaced a fair bit of no-name control arms and other such as preventative measure. Will have to examine the center link and see. Got a similar thought from GearGrinder so might be onto something. Fucking absolutely insane how intermittent it is.... she'll be smooth as butter... till she's not.

[BimmrMeUpSnotty]

Yeah man, pitman arm and there should be an idler arm, right? I haven’t checked. My 540 has been rock solid, but for the usually stupid power steering lines.

- - - Updated - - -

Have you jacked up the front end and try to shake the wheels to see if there’s any play?

[scottieducati]

The shop checked for play pretty much everywhere, also for run-out and balance at all four corners. Found one (pass front) tire had a slight high-spot but nothing else. No play anywhere other than <1mm at the half shafts (w/in spec).

[crazy4trains]

If you have any friends with a similar vehicle swap out the wheels/tires and see if there is any difference.

[scottieducati]

If you have any friends with a similar vehicle swap out the wheels/tires and see if there is any difference.

I should note, the vibration persists with both my summer wheels (18" M-Pars, staggered) and winter wheels (16" style 29's).

Had hockey last night and the drive back was almost all at speeds where the vibration persists. I pulled off the highway and immediately stopped to check all four wheels / hubs... each cool to the touch so I am doubting wheel bearings.

It could be in my mind, but at some slower speeds (40-50 ish) it feels like there's some kind of resistance in the car. Like you'd expect with a bearing-related issue turning past a tight spot... almost a similar feeling to driving over slight, intermittent rumble strips. Again, could be my mind playing games at this point...

Also, the PO (confirmed in his build thread and a separate follow up email) replaced all the steering links. What I don't know is with what brand, and I suspect it was a URO or other bargain kit as we've already replaced a bunch of cheap control arms.... so I know the center link is new (~5-6k miles on it), but it could easily be an off brand.

So in my mind, I've got it narrowed down to: cheap / worn center steering linkage, CSB(?) or driveshaft not in balance (shop inspected DS and said it looked fine, FWIW).

[StephenVA]

Vibration diagnostics: (as apposed to shotgun and internet guesses approaches)
https://www.motor.com/magazine-summary/fixing-vexing-vibrations-march-2018/

Quote from article:
Each individual component in a vehicle has a frequency at which it tends to vibrate, depending on the component’s mass, size and composition. The term frequency of vibration means just that—how frequently the vibration occurs. Frequency is measured in hertz (Hz), which is a measurement of cycles per second. So a frequency of 20Hz means that the component being measured is vibrating 20 times per second. Hz can be converted to rpm by multiplying it by 60, or rpm to Hz by dividing it by 60. The frequency that causes a particular component to vibrate is called its point of resonance.
Free App: Vibration Isolator Pro by Mecanocaucho.
https://www.motor.com/wp-content/uploads/vibrations-img3_0318.png

[BimmrMeUpSnotty]

Scott, I don’t remember the P.O. installing any garbage parts into your car, I remember his thread, he had good parts going into that car.

[scottieducati]

Scott, I don’t remember the P.O. installing any garbage parts into your car, I remember his thread, he had good parts going into that car.

Unfortunately not the control arm kit. It was URO and he confirmed it with me on the phone. Already replaced the 4 main front control arms w/ Lemforder, and a couple things out back.

[BimmrMeUpSnotty]

Damn, I must’ve missed that part.

[scottieducati]

Vibration diagnostics: (as apposed to shotgun and internet guesses approaches)
https://www.motor.com/magazine-summary/fixing-vexing-vibrations-march-2018/


Nice read, and for sure worth a shot with a smartphone app. I tune Ducati belts by frequency but have a special auditory tool to do it. From this article: "The lesson of the driveline vibration story is that there are two kinds of driveline vibrations — low-speed and high-speed. Low-speed vibrations (below 45 mph) are most likely caused by a driveshaft, because the shaft spins fast at low speeds. High-speed vibrations (over 45 mph) are usually caused by a tire or a halfshaft, because higher speeds are needed to get the frequency up to the Hz and amplitude necessary for the vibration to be noticed."

- - - Updated - - -


Damn, I must’ve missed that part.

It's all good, still happy with the car!:redspot

The hard part (6-speed swap) was done well and I knew she was due for some engine and other maintenance.

[BimmrMeUpSnotty]

Hey Sott, you work on Ducs??? I had been dreaming of a 1299 Panigale, but now, the V4 Panigale replaced that dream. Might be heading to the Duc Pond sometime soon.

[scottieducati]

Hey Sott, you work on Ducs??? I had been dreaming of a 1299 Panigale, but now, the V4 Panigale replaced that dream. Might be heading to the Duc Pond sometime soon.

Way past my familiar vintage I'm afraid, I do what maintenance I can on 2V and 4V Desmo's, pre-998 Testastretta. Currently I have a '98 ST2 and a '92 851 vintage racer.

New stuff is better made from a tolerance perspective, but have incredibly tight packaging for maintenance access. Something like 32 fasteners to remove the Tail off the new V4 Pani! Lots of major maintenance seems to require basically removing front ends and rear tail units, but then again the motor is kind of designed to have stuff unbolt from it...

[BimmrMeUpSnotty]

Nice! 851! That was a cool bike! Had a ‘96 900 SP, #818. I still have a ‘99 900SS, rest of my bikes are Japanese, a 2000 Kawi ZX12R, an ‘03 Z1000, an ‘04 Yamaha R1, 2 ‘09 R6 trackday bikes, and an ‘08 CRF230 dirt bike, only ridden once... lol. So, been thinking, new bike. Either the BMW S 1000RR, or the V4 Panigale. Planning on getting rid of the track bikes, and the stupid dirt bike. Just too many things to take care of.

[scottieducati]

Nice! 851! That was a cool bike! Had a ‘96 900 SP, #818. I still have a ‘99 900SS, rest of my bikes are Japanese, a 2000 Kawi ZX12R, an ‘03 Z1000, an ‘04 Yamaha R1, 2 ‘09 R6 trackday bikes, and an ‘08 CRF230 dirt bike, only ridden once... lol. So, been thinking, new bike. Either the BMW S 1000RR, or the V4 Panigale. Planning on getting rid of the track bikes, and the stupid dirt bike. Just too many things to take care of.

Ha well my main street mount is a fairly modified ZRX1100, a 5th gen VFR (last of the gear drives!), a VFR400 NC30 race bike, and a Beta Xtrainer. I feel the maintenance pain as 3-4 of them aren’t rideable currently... and I have a 2 year old at home so.... oh and a siiick RD400 Resto mod that’s nearly done and needs to sell ASAP... been sitting on a lift for over a year tho.

I have a huge 2+ car garage we built and can’t even do any car maintenance. It’s a bike shop and a few buddies bikes live here. Kind of got outta hand....

[BimmrMeUpSnotty]

Ha well my main street mount is a fairly modified ZRX1100, a 5th gen VFR (last of the gear drives!), a VFR400 NC30 race bike, and a Beta Xtrainer. I feel the maintenance pain as 3-4 of them aren’t rideable currently... and I have a 2 year old at home so.... oh and a siiick RD400 Resto mod that’s nearly done and needs to sell ASAP... been sitting on a lift for over a year tho.

I have a huge 2+ car garage we built and can’t even do any car maintenance. It’s a bike shop and a few buddies bikes live here. Kind of got outta hand....
Always liked those ZRX 1100 and 1200’s. I used to have a ‘97 VFR750, wanted to make it look like an RC45, but never got to. Your NC30, that was the little brother of the RC30, the 750, right??? The RD400 should sell quick, everyone loves a 2 stroke. My ZX12R is worked quite a bit, has the Raptor cam kit from Muzzy, head was ported and polished, Dynojet III, full Muzzy exhaust, 6 hours on a dyno, fully remapped, stupid bike has 205 at the rear wheel, could have had way more, but I wanted the bike rideable everyday of the year, man, that bike is phenomenal. It’s been sitting, now I need to completely go over it again. Too many hobbies!

[scottieducati]

Always liked those ZRX 1100 and 1200’s. I used to have a ‘97 VFR750, wanted to make it look like an RC45, but never got to. Your NC30, that was the little brother of the RC30, the 750, right??? The RD400 should sell quick, everyone loves a 2 stroke. My ZX12R is worked quite a bit, has the Raptor cam kit from Muzzy, head was ported and polished, Dynojet III, full Muzzy exhaust, 6 hours on a dyno, fully remapped, stupid bike has 205 at the rear wheel, could have had way more, but I wanted the bike rideable everyday of the year, man, that bike is phenomenal. It’s been sitting, now I need to completely go over it again. Too many hobbies!

I had a friend with an epic ZX12R build, holy warp speed battman! You know what I like about them best though? They're SMOOTH and don't want to shake themselves apart at speed..... :eyecrazy

[BimmrMeUpSnotty]

Exactly! I always took the 12 to ludicrous speed, ala Spaceballs, and saw plaid! That bike, was fast out of the crate, but in 2000, the fuel injection/ mapping had a nasty dead spot between 3,800 to 42 or 4300 rpm, getting into the throttle on a curve was.... interesting, past the dead zone. After the cam job, and all the dyno time re-tuning, the throttle was crisp and totally linear all the way to redline. Stupid thing was a time warp every time you got on it, which was every time I rode it. Always got up past 205-208mph, on GPS, but always ran out of road. Rob Muzzy claims the bike will do 215 with the gearing that I went with, it has a lot more, just never found a road where I could see it’s true potential. This time around, I think I’m gonna put it into more of a diet, shed some more weight, go with carbon fiber Black Mountain wheels, or maybe some magnesium Marchesini’s, there’s quite a bit more weight I could lop off I’m sure, but some of that bikes extra weight is also why it feels so stable at ludicrous speeds. They definitely got the right formula close, straight from the factory. The 14, it’s even faster, but man, I just can’t get past what an ugly bike it is!

[philly98540]

Fast bikes are too addictive for me. Drove my buds zx14 for a bit. Just insane acceleration. I vowed to myself never to buy such a beast.

[BimmrMeUpSnotty]

Who the hell are you? And what did you do with my Philly buddy from Philly???

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah man! After riding the 12, I hop on the R1, it feels so slow, takes forever just to get to 190... lol

[dme88]

You need to find out what the frequency of the vibration is, ie- which order. With that in min one could do some fault tracing.
My experience is that the so called "shimmy" at 70 mph (110km/h) is related to the tries not being 1005 round. That said - the vibration may appear larger if the Thrust bushings is worn or the ball-joints have some play.
Check out the app Shimmy Diagnoser on App Store, has helped me allot to understand different types of vibrations!

[scottieducati]

Downloaded the vibration frequency meter for iPhone and will do a highway run soon!

[scottieducati]

Fairly consistent ~40+ Hz around 80 mph or so. Equates to 2400+ rpm, so it's pointing me away from wheels, tires, brakes, steering link, etc. and towards the driveline

[ViolinARC]

So weird that these cars seem to suffer from shakes and shimmies. :dunno

Also note that "shaking" is different from the infamous "shimmy". My shaking ('00 540i Sport) was the driveshaft and the shimmy was the thrust arm bushings ('00 AND '03 540i M-sport). I replaced the driveshaft with a remanufactured, which solved the shaking. For the shimmy, after two replacement sets of Lemforder and then Powerflex Black Track (still on the '00 and still had a slight shimmy before the Trans Failsafe that I'm working on now), I finally dropped the coin for G.A.S. Monoballs on the '03...problem SOLVED! Feels like I'm driving on glass when the road surface is smooth...:redspot

[StephenVA]

You got to love a final resolution that performs!

[scottieducati]

Don’t have a shimmy. It’s all in the back.

Looked into monoballs, May or may not try em out down the road... but already had some PF thrust bushings on hand.

[pimp cauldron]

I now have an intermittent vibration from around 65-80mph after replacing my thrust arm bushings. They were definitely worn out, and I replaced them with complete Meyle arms. I'm wondering if the vibration had always been there and because of the new bushings it can actually be transmitted to the steering wheel. It feels like an out of balance wheel/tire though, so hopefully an alignment and wheel balance cures it.

[ViolinARC]

I now have an intermittent vibration from around 65-80mph after replacing my thrust arm bushings. They were definitely worn out, and I replaced them with complete Meyle arms. I'm wondering if the vibration had always been there and because of the new bushings it can actually be transmitted to the steering wheel. It feels like an out of balance wheel/tire though, so hopefully an alignment and wheel balance cures it. :eatpop:

[StephenVA]

I personally think that the solid worm gear and center link applications tend to transmit every little slack or out of balance part right up the steering shaft or into our butts (front verses rear). On the rear suspensions/drive shafts, they have a lesser cushion mounts so they transmit that buzzzzzz all the way to our backsides.

Solution? New parts! Welcome to ownership of what were once high end cars. After all it is only money and our labor....

[pimp cauldron]

:eatpop:

If you see a stock silver 540i with really ugly headlights give me a wave!

[R Shaffner]

I need to track down a front-end shimmy that can be real bad at 45 mph when the tires are cold. Wheel will shake noticeably. After everything is warmed, it will cruise at high speed pretty smoothly. (Slight vibration.)

I know the tires are contributing. They were worn unevenly from misalignment. I have a lowered '02 540-6 and had to drive to special shop who could do the alignment. (BTW, I had them give it M5 alignment which is GREAT! Not kidding. No more understeer. MUCH better than M Sport or other 540 alignment.)

I got this car 1.5 years ago so I think the suspension needs work. The shimmy is getting worse. I just don't know what the issue is yet and will start checking. Thx for all this input.

About persistent vibration in these cars that cannot be traced to the front or another specific location:

BMW uses a single universal joint in the drive shaft, along with a Giubo disc and a constant velocity joint. As I understand it, U-joints add a sign-wave motion with each half-revolution whenever they are not perfectly straight, which is much/most of the time. Most (perhaps the vast majority) of rear-drive cars cancel those vibrations out by using 2 out-of-phase U-joints, one at each end of the drive shaft.

In short, with most other rear-drive cars, the driveshaft can have a slight sine-wave motion where it speeds up and slows down a bit, but that motion is cancelled out and not transferred to the rear-end. However, in the e39 (or at least the 540 that I'm familiar with), there is just one U-Joint, so the slight sine wave vibration MUST be transferred to the rear-end whenever the driveshaft isn't perfectly straight. (The rear CV joint transfers that motion accurately to the rear wheels without cancelling it out.)

I wonder why BMW didn't just put a second out-of-phase u-joint at the differential.

[philly98540]

Agree, but he driveshaft is held straight or damn near close to perfectly straight all the time. The rear diff is fixed so it does not go up/down like a live axle car thus the driveshaft stays straight.

[scottieducati]

In my instance, I ended up doing the following (amidst other work) to address the various vibrations:

- Brakes (didn't fix, but helped on brake application)
- Front control arms (front wheel vibration vastly reduced, particularly the aggressive shake back and fourth.... I knew these were needed and already planned / unrelated to the rear end vibration I was feeling but they were needed at the time anyway. However the rear end stuff at times felt like it initiated shake up front, if that makes sense)
- Brakes (shop recommended, I acquiesced only b/c I'd used cheap rotors, this did not fix the problem but braking was again improved (b/c old rotors had sat and rusted a bit).
- After that didn't solve it (and I didn't expect it to and had said as much, but was happy to have the Zimmerman's on the car now anyway), I had the shop do my driveshaft with a new refurbished from DSI. I also replaced my giubo (even though it was visually OK) and went with the M5 (thicker / beefier) variant. This brought a definite and noticeable improvement in vibrations throughout the car....

But, now it is obvious that what I'm feeling (since the beginning, but most noticeable in winter) is really an axle CV going or "flat spotted." The boots are there and no cracks or leaks, and no play in them while they are installed. Also no clicking. But it is the "rear wheels feel flat spotted" at low speed when cold, and the rear end vibration at highway speeds (that can definitely reverberate through the car, it makes the steering wheel "vibrate" a bit but not shake at high speed / frequencies).

I haven't even had the new OE reman'd axles I picked up (fuck me, $$$$$$$$) installed, but I am confident they will resolve the issue. I also have new FAG wheel bearings all around waiting to go on, even though she rolls down the road coasting beautifully and the wheel bearings are more or less fine. At this point, w/ 170k, I'm happy to do the wheel bearings as preventative measure.

So all told, I shudder at the expense and frustration along the way. I should have done new axles when we did the wavetrac but admittedly hoped I wouldn't have to. I also should have been firmer with the shop that it wasn't the brakes after I'd already gone through two entirely different brake setups, and had just rebuilt the brakes on the car and braking up until then had been perfect and smooth.... but anyways.

Arguably doing the axles from the off and I'd still have the old brake rotors on the car and the old driveshaft on the car (because it had no play, and was overall in decent nick).... but now that I'm nearing the end of a full chassis restoration I know that I will enjoy many, many miles of buttery smooth riding. She's come good and had gotten better at every step along the way, even replacing some new but off-brand control arms and stuff.

I'll of course report back after next week when the axles go in and am sure I"ll be onto new troubles before long, but hollly shite these cars can absolutely have small issues that cause / relate to others and make it quite a challenge to track things down.

[R Shaffner]

Agree, but he driveshaft is held straight or damn near close to perfectly straight all the time. The rear diff is fixed so it does not go up/down like a live axle car thus the driveshaft stays straight.

Great point. But doesn't that beg the question about why BMW used both a u-joint and a CV joint? Neither would be needed if the drive shaft was always perfectly straight.

It would make sense to plan for a perfectly straight shaft, and then have some accommodation for it not being perfectly straight. (Like when an amateur like me installs it.) Or when the motor and transmissions mounts wear and flex.

I wish we knew a retired BMW engineer that could answer these questions for us...

[philly98540]

The DS is in two pieces to prevent vibrations and noise if the DS was all one piece. They use a u-joint in the center for simplicity and weight. There is no need for anything more there as there is minimal angle (joint is pretty damn near straight) to deal with here. For the rear, a CV joint is needed since there is an angle between the axis of the DS and the input into the diff so the CV joint cancles the cyclic rotational inputs to the diff here.

[Uturn540]

One issue that I have found that will cause a vibration is failure to lube the wheel centering up as per BMW when installing the wheels. Don't ask me why other than maybe the wheels just don't seat correctly. I had the same issue especially when braking. Had the tires rebalanced three times, since it started right after a tire service. Took the front wheels off to check all the components, every thing new, in spec, and tight, and when I put them back on I remembered the lube procedure for the hubs. After that no more vibration, go figure.

[R Shaffner]

The DS is in two pieces to prevent vibrations and noise if the DS was all one piece. They use a u-joint in the center for simplicity and weight. There is no need for anything more there as there is minimal angle (joint is pretty damn near straight) to deal with here. For the rear, a CV joint is needed since there is an angle between the axis of the DS and the input into the diff so the CV joint cancles the cyclic rotational inputs to the diff here.

OK. I get what you're say now.

For example, when I rebuilt a '60 Triumph TR-3 (decades ago) everything I read said to make sure to have the 2 u-joints out-of-phase. That was needed because the transmission output shaft and the differential input shaft were on parallel axes. So when the rear axle moved up and down, the angular deflection of both u-joints was about the same, so they would cancel out pretty well.

Here, with the e39, the rear CV joint is needed because the driveshaft and input shaft in the diff have different angles. There is a different angle (mostly little or no angle) at the u-joint in this case. So there's no sine wave motion to cancel out.

Thanks Philly. I got it now.

[whiteghost1]

One issue that I have found that will cause a vibration is failure to lube the wheel centering up as per BMW when installing the wheels. Don't ask me why other than maybe the wheels just don't seat correctly. I had the same issue especially when braking. Had the tires rebalanced three times, since it started right after a tire service. Took the front wheels off to check all the components, every thing new, in spec, and tight, and when I put them back on I remembered the lube procedure for the hubs. After that no more vibration, go figure.
Can you elaborate more on what the this lube procedure is please?

[scottieducati]

Anti seize around the hub and mating face of hub - wheel area.


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[Uturn540]

Not on the mating face, but on the flange that centers the wheel. Take a dab of anti-seize, lithium grease, silicone grease, or other lube on your finger and smear a light coating around the outside of the flange. It is actually a listed item within the brake inspection area on the Inspection I list.

[scottieducati]

I always use a thin coating on the hub up here in New England.... have had a wheel frozen / seized on a hub more than once!


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[whiteghost1]

Good suggestions, I’ve always struggled with my wheels sticking to the hub, will make sure to do this ASAP.

[citationav8r]

Ive been reading a lot of posts addressing the common front end shimmy/vibration but have yet to narrow down the cause. I have a 2003 540 sport that when I first drive the car, the shimmy begins at around 65 mph and gets worse when brakes are applied.. It stops above 75. The issue I have is that after the car has been driven for awhile, the problem decreases or sometimes goes away altogether.

[scottieducati]

FWIW I went round in circles chasing an annoying intermittent vibration. Definitely replaced thrust arms that helped, rebuilt brakes and did all that but it was still there.

It was my axles. Went with Genuine Remans and I’ll be damned if she doesn’t roll down the road like butter. Had 168k on the car at the time of replacement and presume both were original.


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[StephenVA]

I know this is not what you want to read but have you tried to clean the hubs BEFORE installing the rotors? This a big issue on many applications as a small amount of dirt/rust/junk on the hub will force the rotor and wheel out of perfect alignment which in turn cause a vibration at various speeds.

Takes just a few mins per wheel as all you need are these and a drill.

Next step vibration testing
https://www.motor.com/magazine-summary/fixing-vexing-vibrations-march-2018/