Dyno with M50 manifold

[SG_M3]

Here it is finally, and its exactly what I wanted. The second dyno.jpg is intake, exhaust, crank pulley. The first is all that plus the m50. All on stock software.

[slcook54]

Wow, Sean, those number seem really high, crank pullies must have given you a lot of power, especially since you haven't done the 3.5 HFM, I'm sure a chip will really help you maximize your gains, the M50 manifold is next on my list, oh wait I already have it :D You did lose a little torque but a chip should help rectify that.

[Mantic]

Nice numbers, curious what the euro HFM would do..

[BimmerDawg]

Damn, that's nice. I REALLY need to dyno mine.

[blackm3]

SG..can you feel the difference past 4k? I am tracking my car alot more and thought this will be worthwhile to do. Until the TS kit goes on :)

[SG_M3]

I love the way the car feels. Yes, you can feel it pull all the way, it pulls right to 6.5k now. Thats the reason i did the swap, on track the car just won't pull in the upper rpm range. It now pulls all the way there, no problems.

[DominikM3]

Did you buy the kit from someone or you did the kit your self?
Nice #s

[SG_M3]

I bought the manifold on here, and did it my self. Total cost was under $200.

[Jaded M3]

Very nice numbers, Sean. Congrats. :buttrock

[surfacewound]

I love the way the car feels. Yes, you can feel it pull all the way, it pulls right to 6.5k now. Thats the reason i did the swap, on track the car just won't pull in the upper rpm range. It now pulls all the way there, no problems.

Actually it even pulls up to 7k once you get the software. :)

[bowtieboy]

Those numbers are nice but it looks like you took a trade off under the peak on torque. Looking at your TQ numbers it appears as if you have a loss in the lower range (look how long each stays under 200 RWHP). That may not affect someone like yourself, in road racing, but it would definitely prove to be a compromise in autocross. I'm sure a tune/chip will alter that but I can't help to wonder what a chip would have done before the manifold.

Good luck with the tune !

[SG_M3]

I can help you wonder. My friend has the same mods but has AA software for a m50 car. He pulled 2 rwhp more and 1 rwtq more than me. The AFR's were very similar, me being a little richer in the top end than his. He does have a better low and mid range though, IIRC.

I'll get him to post his graph this week.

Like you said, this mod is great for someone who tracks, but for a street car or low speed auto-x, its not really worth the tq loss.

[12:03]

Nice. Thanks for sharing

[DominikM3]

I bought the manifold on here, and did it my self. Total cost was under $200.

Is it hard to do get the kit together your self? Last time I talked to someone on here told me that if he was to do it again he would just go and buy the kit.

[megatron]

nice plots.

i'll be doing the m50 on my autocross m3 within the next few weeks as well.

i did a little bit of data gathering with a g-tech pro comp at a porsche club autocross this weekend, to see if the midrange torque loss would be worth the up-top gains. the course was atypical of a porsche club event, in that it was a bit tighter than usual - definitely tighter than an scca nationals-style course.

the key take away was that the car was only below 3500 at the start and during a turn around (steady 3500). at a turn around exit, you roll the power on exit anway, so you'll never tap 100% torque. so that midrange torque loss is essentially non-existant in the range of speeds seen in autocross, unless you're running on a postage stamp sized lot.

i'll do the swap and will post up the results. :D

[QuestMCoupe]

Nice numbers Sean.

[hinzm3]

I can help you wonder. My friend has the same mods but has AA software for a m50 car. He pulled 2 rwhp more and 1 rwtq more than me. The AFR's were very similar, me being a little richer in the top end than his. He does have a better low and mid range though, IIRC.

I'll get him to post his graph this week.

Like you said, this mod is great for someone who tracks, but for a street car or low speed auto-x, its not really worth the tq loss.

this is my dyno with AA Gen 3 exhaust, ECIS cai and m50 manifold.

http://webpages.charter.net/hinzo/Dyno/dyno-first.jpg


This dyno is with AA custom Software and uri crank pulley.

http://webpages.charter.net/hinzo/Dyno/dyno-2.jpg

the day I dyno'd with Sean the best I made was 237/222 I think.

[vinnymac]

Nice numbers.

I'm looking to go that route with my OBD2 M3 as well. :buttrock

[slcook54]

Sean and hinz, by any chance did you guys dyno your cars stock on the same dyno? If so what did you guys put down?

[hinzm3]

I never did but an obd2 m3 with ecis cai and aa gen 3 made 219/225tq. I think the manifold is a pretty good gain for atleast 10-15rwhp.

[SG_M3]

My car did 208 rwhp stock. Then 215/216 with intake and exhaust. 226/225 with I,E, and ERT pulley. Then what its at now, 236/221 with all that and the M50.

[Serious]

you should be in the mid-high 240's with the euro hfm and software

[BSH]

this is my dyno with AA Gen 3 exhaust, ECIS cai and m50 manifold.

http://webpages.charter.net/hinzo/Dyno/dyno-first.jpg


This dyno is with AA custom Software and uri crank pulley.

http://webpages.charter.net/hinzo/Dyno/dyno-2.jpg

the day I dyno'd with Sean the best I made was 237/222 I think.Can you please repost your dyno figures? Thanks.

[Mad Dog 20/20]

Nice numbers. :alright Pretty much what one should expect with those mods, IMHO.

That is a very cost-effective mod path, a pretty big bang for the buck (for these cars, anyway). Well done.

[coolcarlski]

Nice #'s.However the torque drop at 5500-5800 in the 3.2L motor does'nt surprise me.With the chip the power will wake up some in the same exact rpm range.Wow!You're pretty much at 300hp at the crank.Very nice.

[hinzm3]

Can you please repost your dyno figures? Thanks.


np

Dyno with Ecis Cai, AA Gen 3 and M50
http://www.rmaz.us/ftp/Dyno/dyno-first.jpg


Dyno with ecis cai, aa gen 3 exhaust, m50, aa custom software and believe it or not a crank pulley which didnt show a gain :confused
http://www.rmaz.us/FTP/Dyno/dyno-1.jpg
http://www.rmaz.us/FTP/Dyno/dyno-2.jpg

[coolcarlski]

I know,I really dont see whats the big deal with the crank pullies.There are far better upgrades to do.

[SG_M3]

I know,I really dont see whats the big deal with the crank pullies.There are far better upgrades to do.

:confused Like what?

[hinzm3]

I know,I really dont see whats the big deal with the crank pullies.There are far better upgrades to do.

Most people see a 10hp/10tq gain with it,But i'm not sure why I didnt. I will redyno without it when I put my HFM on.

[paul e]

>>Like what?<<

Like FI :) Yea, its expensive.. but break down the hp per dollar costs some Non FI guys are spending, and you see its really not so far out of whack.. Take a price range of $6000-$6800, for which you can get into a brand new FI system. Figure that for this price, you will pick up a gain of about 150 whp. This equates to a price per wheel horsepower of about $45.

45 bucks per hp gain. Some of you guys think nothing of spending 500 bucks for 10 hp gain with some of the CAIs, or mani swaps, or pulley installations, etc. From a cost per horsepower perspective, I think the better FI solutions are right in line with some of the NA upgrades you are buying, and actually are a better buy in many respects.

[SG_M3]

>>Like what?<<

Like FI :) Yea, its expensive.. but break down the hp per dollar costs some Non FI guys are spending, and you see its really not so far out of whack.. Take a price range of $6000-$6800, for which you can get into a brand new FI system. Figure that for this price, you will pick up a gain of about 150 whp. This equates to a price per wheel horsepower of about $45.

45 bucks per hp gain. Some of you guys think nothing of spending 500 bucks for 10 hp gain with some of the CAIs, or mani swaps, or pulley installations, etc. From a cost per horsepower perspective, I think the better FI solutions are right in line with some of the NA upgrades you are buying, and actually are a better buy in many respects.

Well for some of us FI isn't an option or have any appeal at all. My car will never be FI. Non factory FI just doesn't work on track, you always have issues.

I'd take a stock euro motor or a cammed US 3.2 over any turbo or s/c car. But it depends on your uses of the car and what your goals are.

[paul e]

yEA.. Ive found its mostly the hard core track junkies, who need to maintain in a certain class, that seem to have the biggest reaction against FI.. Although steve dinan makes a big deal about how hes always entering his supercharged M3s into track events.. Honestly though after having driven one in standard Dinan trim, without an intercooler, hes going to get buried.. See, the fact is, he DOES have his own intercooler for track events; he just doesnt make it readily available at an affordable price to his customers. I guess we know who Steve Dinan is interested in : Steve Dinan!

[coolcarlski]

Well for some of us FI isn't an option or have any appeal at all. My car will never be FI. Non factory FI just doesn't work on track, you always have issues.

I'd take a stock euro motor or a cammed US 3.2 over any turbo or s/c car. But it depends on your uses of the car and what your goals are.My Man you cant mess with FI no matter how you put it.S/C on autox or road racing should rule.



To me crank pullies are a waste of time. I have one on my Talon(Unorthodox) and all it does is cause my belts to squeak.It's better than the stck Mitsu pulley in that it doesnt fall apart like the stck one does after many yrs of abuse which results in a destroyed motor and crankshaft. I wouldnt waste my time using them on my 332i.



G_M3]wanna be racer
Posted by coolcarlski
I know,I really dont see whats the big deal with the crank pullies.There are far better upgrades to do.
Like what?



Why, do you think your car is faster than a car with the same mods without the Pullies?

[Mad Dog 20/20]

Take a price range of $6000-$6800, for which you can get into a brand new FI system. Figure that for this price, you will pick up a gain of about 150 whp.

From a cost per horsepower perspective, I think the better FI solutions are right in line with some of the NA upgrades you are buying, and actually are a better buy in many respects.

Which $6k FI system provides 360whp? That is an excellent bang/buck.

The ones I'm familiar with for that price (basic Vortech/Rotrex kits) deliver roughly about 290whp/245wtrq, which is not bad at all for street use.

But subjected to 10 to 15 minutes of constant engine speeds ranging from 5.5k to 7krpm on a 90 degree track day, the power drops off pretty badly/quickly (assuming nothing breaks first). From what I've seen, a nicely built NA motor (255whp/235wtrq) ultimately has a slight performance advantage on a track and is much more reliable/durable.

[Mad Dog 20/20]

My Man you cant mess with FI no matter how you put it.S/C on autox or road racing should rule.



To me crank pullies are a waste of time. I have one on my Talon(Unorthodox) and all it does is cause my belts to squeak.It's better than the stck Mitsu pulley in that it doesnt fall apart like the stck one does after many yrs of abuse which results in a destroyed motor and crankshaft. I wouldnt waste my time using them on my 332i.






Why, do you think your car is faster than a car with the same mods without the Pullies?

Cool. Back in the day (5 yrs ago, maybe) top club racers ran Vortech SC'ed e36's. They all switched to built NA motors for a reason. ;)

You can't compare your results w/ modding your Talon to modding a BMW. Its apples oranges. The crank pulley has proven to be the best bang/buck NA mod for these cars.

You may wann do a lil homework (searches). People have been modding/racing these cars for 10+ years now. The above info is old news.

[StouffvilleZ3]

Are talking about a crank pully as in the harmonic dampener? I've heard that you are taking a chance with engine longevity if you install one of those.

I've got a set of UUC UDP's coming shortly, they're 5-9 hp type of gains but surely not 10 whp.

The M50 and software really un-corks the 2.8 non M engines.

[Mad Dog 20/20]

Are talking about a crank pully as in the harmonic dampener? I've heard that you are taking a chance with engine longevity if you install one of those.

I've got a set of UUC UDP's coming shortly, they're 5-9 hp type of gains but surely not 10 whp.

The M50 and software really un-corks the 2.8 non M engines.

Yep, we're talkin crank pulley, which is worth as much as 15whp/trq on some cars.

The accesory pullies you speak of are good for maybe 3 to 5hp.

[paul e]

>>Which $6k FI system provides 360whp<<

Its not 360.. its 350.. Most dynojets Ive seen show the oe stock M3 near 200.. The Technique Tuning Turbo kit Boris is running is making ~350 whp, and almost the same wtrq. And, its cost is around $6500 complete! If you need to go even cheaper, guys are getting the RMS kits these days, I believe WiTH the aftercooler, for near $6000. The point i was trying to make is, the days of having to spend near 10 grand to play are thankfully GONE.. Thats the playground I had to play in back in '99 when I bought mine. Given the small difference above between the turbo and the sc system, its really a no brainer to me... To have a really well built turbo kit, with Nicks tuning, that puts down 350 to the wheels, at just 8 psi, with Cats and obdii manifold in still in place, is about the best stage I kit result both in terms of performance, and in terms of price that you will see.

However, if you are dedicated to having to own a supercharger, the rms price and pkg is good also. If you are going to buy a supercharger kit, though, just make sure its got an intercooler, and preferably, it should be upgradeable. Alot of us with vortech kits have bumped our boosts to a current 11 psi.. You cant do that with some of the other non vortech based kits. IN my book though, even against the 11 psi Vortech kits, the Technique Turbo kit rules. Its the torque difference which wins the day, even against supercharger kits with higher boost, or more whp. After driving my 11 psi sc kit, which is no slouch, driving the TT turbo kit feels like driving an electric car, in that around 3000-3500 rpms, when my car is just approaching about 3.5 psi, the turbo kit is making more than twice that amount of boost, and it just feels like youre in an effortless glide, which nobody around you can keep up with.. And it does it with very little fanfare.. its quieter than the sc kits, and aside from the Pfft of the blowoff valve, it feels like an ultra powerful electroglide kind of car... Its hard to explain.. There is No wait for the boost, where is it.. oh Therrrrrrrrrrre it is... Its the only turbo kit Ive ever felt that had none of this typical lag wait.

Im not trying to push any one kit.. all iM trying to say is that for a very good price, you CAN get into really good Forced INduction today, making the dollars per hp ratio the best its ever been.

[Mad Dog 20/20]

Wow. That turbo set-up is a nice bang/buck kit. Any firm word on pricing for the twin screw, yet?

Looks like FI pricing is getting reasonable.

[SG_M3]

My Man you cant mess with FI no matter how you put it.S/C on autox or road racing should rule.



To me crank pullies are a waste of time. I have one on my Talon(Unorthodox) and all it does is cause my belts to squeak.It's better than the stck Mitsu pulley in that it doesnt fall apart like the stck one does after many yrs of abuse which results in a destroyed motor and crankshaft. I wouldnt waste my time using them on my 332i.



Why, do you think your car is faster than a car with the same mods without the Pullies?

No offense but it sounds like you need to do some research. What applies to a talon, isn't going to apply here, that may sound like a gross generalization, but its true.

Many have dyno proven gains of 10+ rwhp, myself included. I don't think you can beat it, bang for the buck wise.

[paul e]

>>Many have dyno proven gains of 10+ rwhp, myself included. I don't think you can beat it, bang for the buck wise.<<

Whats the total cost?

[SG_M3]

$185 for the pulley, and a set of belts.

I'm probably setting myself up by answering that for a mathmatical deduction by paul e. of how FI is better for the money. ;)

[torquey]

Dyno with Ecis Cai, AA Gen 3 and M50
Ray.. on your first dyno chart, looks like the max torque was listed wrong @ 220 .. when on the graph it clearly reaches 224 around 4400 RPM. Have you noticed that by chance? And if you take that into account, by adding CP and AA SW, you only got a net ~1 HP/Tq increase..and that's not considering the "jaggedness" near the upper RPMs.

I am debating this as they're talking another GB on AA software. Not sure if $400 dollars plus having to send my DME are worth it, for a negligible gain :shifty

[paul e]

>>I'm probably setting myself up by answering that for a mathmatical deduction by paul e. of how FI is better for the money<<

Why would you say that? Nobody's going to find fault with 18.5 bucks per hp.. IF all meaningful power upgrades were this cheap, 150 whp FI kits would cost under $3000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>Ray.. on your first dyno chart, looks like the max torque was listed wrong @ 220 .. when on the graph it clearly reaches 224 around 4400 RPM<<

WRONG! Take another look at the scale. Those markers are 5 unit markers, not singletons.. Right???!!

[torquey]

WRONG! Take another look at the scale. Those markers are 5 unit markers, not singletons.. Right???!!
.. ahhh... my bad :embarrasm , apparently the turkey and heavy gravy from last night still affecting my vision :D

[DeeM3]

Dyno with ecis cai, aa gen 3 exhaust, m50, aa custom software and believe it or not a crank pulley which didnt show a gain :confused

If you installed the pulley and dynoed it right away it won't show any gains. You'll feel the power 3-4 days later when the motronics adjust.

[coolcarlski]

No offense but it sounds like you need to do some research. What applies to a talon, isn't going to apply here, that may sound like a gross generalization, but its true.

Many have dyno proven gains of 10+ rwhp, myself included. I don't think you can beat it, bang for the buck wise.No NO No No NO,you guys got me wrng here.I'm not trying to compare my Talon to the BMW's.All I'm saying is I hear guys in the DSM community claiming that the pullies give them "x" amt of HP. I'm saying that I have'nt noticed it or seen it on the Dyno.The only good I see in having it on a DSM is because of the frequent malfunctioning of the stck Crank pulley which tends to fall apart after yrs of abuse and extreme HP.I personally think it would be more worth while using a lightened fly wheel on a BMW than a set of crank pullies.I think that this would help the high rpm fall off of the 3.2L obd1 car after 6100 rpm's.


Bang for the buck,yes the pullies, if they can give you "x" noticable HP I can agree that it's a nice thing to do, but only if that "x" is significant.Otherwise I would go FI with my BMW as I am going to do that with my C43 with the HPS kit.www.myhps.com. 4995.00, w intercooler 7-9k! Unless I find a E55 engine NA that is!


My Talon has the crank pulley on it and that is why I used it as an example not a comparison guys.

[BSH]

I think that this would help the high rpm fall off of the 3.2L obd1 car after 6100 rpm's.Please explain. :confused

[///AlpinePower]

paul - ha. boris' $6500 will be short-lived. he's addicted now. :)

sean, thanks for the graphs. it looks like the AA software also makes the curve a little rough around 6000 rpm?

[slcook54]

No NO No No NO,you guys got me wrng here.I'm not trying to compare my Talon to the BMW's.All I'm saying is I hear guys in the DSM community claiming that the pullies give them "x" amt of HP. I'm saying that I have'nt noticed it or seen it on the Dyno.The only good I see in having it on a DSM is because of the frequent malfunctioning of the stck Crank pulley which tends to fall apart after yrs of abuse and extreme HP.I personally think it would be more worth while using a lightened fly wheel on a BMW than a set of crank pullies.I think that this would help the high rpm fall off of the 3.2L obd1 car after 6100 rpm's.


Bang for the buck,yes the pullies, if they can give you "x" noticable HP I can agree that it's a nice thing to do, but only if that "x" is significant.Otherwise I would go FI with my BMW as I am going to do that with my C43 with the HPS kit.www.myhps.com. 4995.00, w intercooler 7-9k! Unless I find a E55 engine NA that is!


My Talon has the crank pulley on it and that is why I used it as an example not a comparison guys.
You referred to the Crank pulley as plural several times, not sure if you just are confusing the crank pulley with accessory pullies, but there is only one and it works.

[megatron]

crank pullies are good, but you can't run a ltw fly...

accessory pullies are also good, but you can ALSO run an ltw fly...

i chose to go the later route because you drop weight (and better yet rotating mass before any torque multiplier) from the car in addtion to getting snappier throttle response AND free up some power with the accessory pullies.

[MSH]

hinzm3,

It is very interesting when I look at your dyno runs with the AA SW that you are getting the exact same power/tq dip around 6000-6300 rpms, although your AFR doesn't appear to spike to a lean condition like mine in that spot (see below).I just added the M50, 3.5" HFM, ASC delete and the AA SW myself.

I posted a thread on my AFR issue a couple of days ago. Have you spoken to Karl at AA on the weird power/tq spikes? He e-mailed me and told me to make sure the fuel injectors weren't maxing out by running a duty cycle check. In any event, he is probably going to be sending me another iteration of the SW (BTW - I had them socket my ECU to change chips--not sure if you went this route)

MSH

[paul e]

Did he imply that the small afr lean spike near 6200 rpms could be the result of maxed injectors? I drove with maxed injectors for a couple of years. What they showed was, at 6000 rpms and above, a general Leaning of the curve, like it would go from around 12:1 up to near 14:1 at redline. That shows they were at 100% duty cycle around 6k rpms. But I saw no lean spike like this one in the pic... Maybe when they are maxed out, you get strange behavior like this around the limits.. is That what hes saying? Cause, I think all youd expect when the injectors cant deliver any more fuel is that, as the need is increasing, as it would be at wot all the way to redline, youd see a gradual leaning of the afr curve, indicating the need for fuel is increasing, but the abilty to deliver is static. But not the blip. Of course, when we went with the bigger injector, the afr was able to appear as it was tuned for, ie nice and flat between 6000 and 7000 rpms :)

[MSH]

Did he imply that the small afr lean spike near 6200 rpms could be the result of maxed injectors?.....

Paul,

Here is the section of the e-mail Karl at AA responded to me with that addresses the fuel injector duty cycle check recommendation...

"I think you need to have a duty cycle check on the injector opening time right where you have that small blip on the AFR, we need to know what the fuel injectors are doing right at that spot, if the reading hit close to 95%-100% then that means that the fuel injectors are maxing out."


BTW - The logic you stated above is what makes sense to me. I would think if the injectors were hypothetically maxed out at 6000-6200 RPM's (where the spike is occuring) there is no way the AFR could go rich again after the spike

MSH

[slcook54]

crank pullies are good, but you can't run a ltw fly...

accessory pullies are also good, but you can ALSO run an ltw fly...

i chose to go the later route because you drop weight (and better yet rotating mass before any torque multiplier) from the car in addtion to getting snappier throttle response AND free up some power with the accessory pullies.
I would agree, but, when you factor in price, the crank pulley is no doubt a better decision, IMO.

[paul e]

>>BTW - The logic you stated above is what makes sense to me. I would think if the injectors were hypothetically maxed out at 6000-6200 RPM's (where the spike is occuring) there is no way the AFR could go rich again after the spike<<

Msh, I ran with maxed injectors for about 2 years, and did Many dyno and afr pulls with them, with various ecus, including a couple of AA's also, so I know what maxed injectors look like both in terms of power plots, and AFR plots. Note the enclosed plot.. While the blip dip in power is reminiscent of yours, its different in two main respects. First, the dip is larger in magnitude. It covers all of about 30 whp and ft lb units. And, even more important, it appears Totally Unrelated to whats going on at the injectors! There Is no coincident afr spike. Hence, my feeling is it had to do with water injection.. Or, the spark. It was not repeatable, and didnt occur on every run.. only about 1/3 of my runs. Incidentally, it no longer does this, for whatever reason. Dont know why.. But i DO know im using a smaller WI nozzle, bigger injectors, Euro hfm, Aftercooler, and different software.. Good luck in determining which was the cause it. Could also have been wheel slip on the dyno.

BTW, notice the characteristic shape of what maxed injectors look like. There IS no afr spike.. Instead, above 6k rpms, theres a gradual leaning. And no amount of tuning can get rid of it.. It can be made better, but it cant be gotten rid of, without going with more injector.

[Mad Dog 20/20]

I would agree, but, when you factor in price, the crank pulley is no doubt a better decision, IMO.

I totally agree. Having had all three mods (Acc pullies/LTW fly combo and crank pulley). I have found that my car is quickest and dyno's the highest with the crank pulley. Given the fact that it is a $150 mod and a DIY install, for a street car, I consider it a vastly superior mod to a $500 Ltw fly + $300 clutch + $750 install + the price of acc pullies (which do squat if you already have a fan delete). In terms of bang/buck, a crank pulley rocks. :redspot

[coolcarlski]

You referred to the Crank pulley as plural several times, not sure if you just are confusing the crank pulley with accessory pullies, but there is only one and it works.Well actually I meant both.Are you really going to notice a 5-10 hp gain? 20hp hell yea!

[blackm3]

Maddog..do you have the lt wt flywheel AND the crank pulley on your car right now?? I've read you're not suppose to do both...

[DeeM3]

Notice he said having had, not I have.

[blackm3]

Ah...I browsed through it quickly and didn't notice...what's on the car right now Garrett??

[Jean-Claude]

I don't mean to thread jack but I have a few questions and don't want to have to start a new thread if all the knowledgable people visit this one...anyways:

My m50 manifold is being shipped to me right now. Am I hearing right that I don't need new software to run the manifold?
What about injectors? I have a 1999m3. Are the oem injectors enough? If not what # do I need? Thx and sorry at the same time.

[BSH]

I don't mean to thread jack but I have a few questions and don't want to have to start a new thread if all the knowledgable people visit this one...anyways:

My m50 manifold is being shipped to me right now. Am I hearing right that I don't need new software to run the manifold?
What about injectors? I have a 1999m3. Are the oem injectors enough? If not what # do I need? Thx and sorry at the same time.New software is not essential with the M50 manifold but you could probably squeeze out some more power with the appropriate software for your application.

Your stock 21# injectors are more than sufficient for your application. If you upgrade your injectors (which isn't necessary unless you go with cams) then you MUST upgrade your software.