I think the BMW dealership blew the PPI

[heather]

Hello! Thanks to the great support here, I was able to find my (almost) dreamcar -- a 2002 530i with a manual tranny. Only had one owner, no rust, 130k on it and the price was right. Being in a Chicago suburb around rush hour when I first saw/drove it, I couldn't really take it out for a real spin. To alleviate all suspicions, I paid the local BMW dealer $180 for a 'Level One' pre-purchase inspection, which found no major problems! We negotiated with the seller and I bought it on the spot.

Two days later, I took it out on the country roads and found there is some slipping gears. Being a E39 noob (and owning an E36 for 20 years), I tried turning the DSC on/off, but the same thing -- the clutch is slipping a bit. No smells, but you can tell by the RPM's, especially between 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

Isn't this something the dealership should have found at a 'level one' PPI? I wanted some opinions before I call them today.

Thanks for the wisdom!
Heather

[sp1ke36]

If you don't mind me asking, which dealership? I'm in the Chicago suburbs as well. Would be good to know.

[project e36]

i mean its possible they missed it but again level one is mostly a visual inspection in the chance they drove the vehicle theyll drive it at normal speeds and a slipping clutch it noticeable more when ur getting on it

[heather]

i tried to get an official list of what is checked, but they don't have one (i was told). i'll wait until i speak with them before identifying them. i just think if you have two levels of service, they should be identified as exactly what you get for the $$$.

[auaq]

Keep in mind that BMW installed a valve called 'Clutch Delay Valve' (CDV) in the manual transmissions. They've been doing this for years. Basically, the principle behind it is to have a smooth, dampened gear engagements/transitions and avoid the rocking back and forth when you change gears. It feels like the clutch is slipping or worn (engine rpm still high before it drops and then the car finally moving), but it was designed to slip a little bit. To dampen the oscillations/harmonics that occur when torque is transferred from the crank to the flywheel to the clutch disk to the input shaft and then to the gear(s). As said, it's merely designed to have a smooth gear transitions and eliminate the uncomfortable, or annoying rocking/jerkiness, back and forth, for the passengers. You can simply remove this valve which is situated next to the clutch slave cylinder on the transmission. There are already threads/discussions/tips about this, if you do a quick search around. A lot of owners do find this annoying actually and it actually does prematurely wear your clutch disk and the pressure plate. So, all you have to do is to check if your car still retains this valve, and if so, then simply discard it. There are few DIY's you can find here.

Now suppose that if it truly is slipping, then one way to confirm a worn clutch disk, is to engage into a higher gear (say fifth gear) while the car is not moving, apply steady throttle and let out the clutch pedal slowly, and observe if the engine speed readily drops or is still trying to keep a steady rpm. If it drops readily and the car attempts to plunge forward, then you do not have a worn clutch. If it does not drop and the engine still seems to be holding rpm but not moving, then suspect a worn clutch and is time to replace it.

[BimmerBreaker]

^^ Came here to say the same thing about the CDV. May not be a bad clutch, may just be that you aren't used to how that transmission shifts.

[slocar]

Keep in mind that BMW installed a valve called 'Clutch Delay Valve' (CDV) in the manual transmissions. They've been doing this for years. Basically, the principle behind it is to have a smooth, dampened gear engagements/transitions and avoid the rocking back and forth when you change gears. It feels like the clutch is slipping or worn (engine rpm still high before it drops and then the car finally moving), but it was designed to slip a little bit. To dampen the oscillations/harmonics that occur when torque is transferred from the crank to the flywheel to the clutch disk to the input shaft and then to the gear(s). As said, it's merely designed to have a smooth gear transitions and eliminate the uncomfortable, or annoying rocking/jerkiness, back and forth, for the passengers. You can simply remove this valve which is situated next to the clutch slave cylinder on the transmission. There are already threads/discussions/tips about this, if you do a quick search around. A lot of owners do find this annoying actually and it actually does prematurely wear your clutch disk and the pressure plate. So, all you have to do is to check if your car still retains this valve, and if so, then simply discard it. There are few DIY's you can find here.

Now suppose that if it truly is slipping, then one way to confirm a worn clutch disk, is to engage into a higher gear (say fifth gear) while the car is not moving, apply steady throttle and let out the clutch pedal slowly, and observe if the engine speed readily drops or is still trying to keep a steady rpm. If it drops readily and the car attempts to plunge forward, then you do not have a worn clutch. If it does not drop and the engine still seems to be holding rpm but not moving, then suspect a worn clutch and is time to replace it.
A far better test is to put it in 4th at 30ish mph and nail the throttle and watch the revs: if they climb, it's toast - if the car accelerates slowly, it's fine.

[auaq]

Yep, apparently my E36 has this CDV which I didn't realise it first when I bought this car last year. The previous owner said they put a brand new clutch and I can attest to that, but it's just that it is way too smooth when changing in between gears, and the CDV is actually attributing to that.

I also suspect that what you are experiencing is nothing more than this CDV thing and not really a worn clutch that you might think it is.

- - - Updated - - -


A far better test is to put it in 4th at 30ish mph and nail the throttle and watch the revs: if they climb, it's toast - if the car accelerates slowly, it's fine.

Yes, you can also do that and I was thinking of mentioning this. At low vehicle speed, engage into fourth gear and slam on the throttle, and observe the behaviour of how the engine responds (rpm) and how the torque is instantly, or not, applied/delivered to the wheels.

[Critter7r]

When you do the 20mph (or whatever) roll and put it in 4th gear to test whether the clutch is slipping, make sure your foot is completely off the clutch and it is completely engaged before "slamming on the gas".

[MIMI1]

Hello! Thanks to the great support here, I was able to find my (almost) dreamcar -- a 2002 530i with a manual tranny. Only had one owner, no rust, 130k on it and the price was right. Being in a Chicago suburb around rush hour when I first saw/drove it, I couldn't really take it out for a real spin. To alleviate all suspicions, I paid the local BMW dealer $180 for a 'Level One' pre-purchase inspection, which found no major problems! We negotiated with the seller and I bought it on the spot.

Two days later, I took it out on the country roads and found there is some slipping gears. Being a E39 noob (and owning an E36 for 20 years), I tried turning the DSC on/off, but the same thing -- the clutch is slipping a bit. No smells, but you can tell by the RPM's, especially between 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

Isn't this something the dealership should have found at a 'level one' PPI? I wanted some opinions before I call them today.

Thanks for the wisdom!
Heather

You will need a new flywheel and clutch.

[Stück]

I've never seen a clutch slip *between* gears.

As others have said it sounds like you simply are not used to have a CDV'd MT behaves. Put the car in 4th/5th at low speed and mash the throttle. If the RPM's climb rapidly the clutch is actually slipping, if the engine lugs, chugs and the car slowly picks up speed.... all is well.

[heather]

yes, it sure is a needed clutch/flywheel replacement. now, i'll see how the dealer will handle this sloppy job they did. thanks for the GREAT help!!

[heather]

thought i'd update you folks. it's starting to smell a bit. i first called them 'fresh' and asked what a PPI would entail. now, there is only ONE level of PPI and it costs $450+. thet sent me a long checklist of what is checked and basically i was told it's the same treatment they give a 'certified bmw' they would sell.

i went over my invoice and all it says is:

A PRE PURCHASE INSPECTION
PPI PRE PURCHASE INSPECTION
210 CCB 180.00 180.00
PARTS: 0.00 LABOR: 180.00 OTHER: 0.00 TOTAL LINE A: 180.00
136651 PERFORM INSPECTION. 1.00
************************************************** **
POSSIBLE L/F SEAT SLED $896.76
// NEEDS STEERIN G COLUMN
$904.00 // FURTHER INSPECTION
FOR THE FRONT SUSPENSION

no checklist whatsoever. i then contacted the GM a week ago and mgr of service last monday thru email and no replies at all. btw, they were wrong about the two issues they did find. turns out the seat switch worked itself loose and needed to be clicked back into place. i can live with the seats not moving 100% of the time, but i NEED the clutch and flywheel to be good. i'll let you know when/if i hear from them.

thanks again for the knowledge!!

[auaq]

Needs steering column???

Did you find out about the CDV yet?

[heather]

hello auaq. no idea on the CDV yet. would a failing CDV mimic a slipping clutch? as in post #8, i ran the 'test', going 20 mph, putting it in 5th and hitting the gas. no chugging, it smoothly ran up the rpm's a bit.

she's such a beautiful baby, too. they really took care of her.

[justinca540i]

The CDV is a clutch delay valve. It was designed to protect the clutch from accidentally being dropped. Good for learning on. But isn't very good for experience drivers and delays the clutch and causes jerky 1-2 shifts.

[auaq]

hello auaq. no idea on the CDV yet. would a failing CDV mimic a slipping clutch? as in post #8, i ran the 'test', going 20 mph, putting it in 5th and hitting the gas. no chugging, it smoothly ran up the rpm's a bit.

she's such a beautiful baby, too. they really took care of her.

Not sure what would be a symptom of a bad CDV as I've never had one. When you say it smoothly ran up the rpms a bit, did you mean the car's speed or the engine speed only? Sounds like everything is in working order. It's just that you'll have to get used to how a CDV car drives, or simply remove that valve and be done with it. No more of that slip feeling thing nor actually slipping at all.