Euro M engine notes

[wilourosen]

There is some discourse between 2 members. One saying how much he likes the M30 and the other how better the M60 is.

Power aside, im guessing what it comes down to is probably the engines notes. Its similar to music i imagine where each person might have a favorite song on one album. To each his own "tune".

The ultimate engine BMW note to me is the S38B38 on full chat. It has such a resonnance to it that even listening to it on youtube it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

Weirdly enough, before i actually drove one, i would go online and look for videos of e34 M5 with 3.6 engines accelarating, and the sound never gave me that same excitement.

A few months ago i actually drove two E34 M5s here in the US, one with 160k and the other with 89k on the odometer, i pushed both cars way pass 6k rpm, and they both confirmed the impression i had when listening to them online. I didn't find them exciting. Yea they were good, but not so much that i would go off and buy one.

Yesterday i saw an M5 3.8 take off by my mechanic's shop and that sound was magic. It had that buzzing beehive engine note, simply electrifying ! I find the M88 in the Euro e28 M5 to have a very similar sound, but not so much the 3.5 S38 in the US E28.

I spoke to Jim Rowe's son the other day from Metric Mechanic and he told me even though they have the same S38 name, the 3.8 is entirely different than the 3.6.

What is it in those euro engines that makes that difference ? Cams ?

What i do seem to notice though is that the Dinan 3.9 stroker from 3.6 engine sounds just like the euro 3.8

[T444E]

This is ridiculous.

[e24mpwr]

For those who choose to participate in this thread, I'm going to advise you to keep it entirely civil and in alignment with forum rules. There will be no further warnings, and as always "he started it" will not be an excuse.

Fair warning...

[PorscheH6]

bmwmregistry.com FAQ

"How is the 3.8-liter M5 engine (S38 B38) different from the 3.6-liter version (S38 B36)?
The final evolution of the S38 powerplant, the S38 B38 (http://www.bmwmregistry.com/faq/S38_3.jpg), was introduced in later versions of the European-spec E34 M5. In this application, the bore was increased (to 94.6mm) and the stroke lengthened (to 90mm), raising the displacement to 3,795cc. Though the added capacity makes the S38 B38 (http://www.bmwmregistry.com/faq/S38_3.jpg) the largest six-cylinder production BMW engine of the modern era, it represents only a portion of the major revisions developed by BMW Motorsport at this time. Others include:
-Larger intake and exhaust valves
-Lighter pistons
-Shorter connecting rods
-50mm throttle bodies (increased from 46mm)
-Increased compression to 10.5:1
-Bosch Motronic 3.3 engine management system
-Distributorless ignition with six coils
-Redesigned intake and exhaust manifolds
-Revised throttle butterfly linked to Motronic engine control
-Dual-mass flywheel with harmonic balancer
-Metal catalysts for reduced backpressure and better heat conduction

The S38 B38 is normally rated at 340 hp (ECE) or 347 hp (DIN) at 6,900 rpm and 295 lb/ft of torque at 4,750 rpm. However, a cleaner version was developed for Austria and Switzerland, rated at 334 hp (ECE) and later 327 hp (ECE). The S38 B38 (http://www.bmwmregistry.com/faq/S38_3.jpg) can be identified by its grey (instead of black) cam cover surround."

Both engines produce fantastic engine sounds from their race derived, straight-six, DOHC, ITB, solid lifter engines.

[Skwisgaar]

For those who choose to participate in this thread, I'm going to advise you to keep it entirely civil and in alignment with forum rules. There will be no further warnings, and as always "he started it" will not be an excuse.

Fair warning...

I have my eyes open, too. And I'm editing the first sentence of the OP. Way to stoke the flames, bud...


T444E started it

Knock it off.

[E38740iMD]

The exhaust setup Prolly was the difference

[Binjammin]

The exhaust setup Prolly was the difference

C'mon man, it couldn't be something as simple as noise. If that were the case, carmakers would be putting speakers in the cabin to fake the noise of better sounding engines...

Oh, wait...

[Jacobw]

I love these threads and I hate these threads, everyone gets so fanboy over a motor. When I did pits for dirt track racing I was talking to one of the push truck drivers about different v8 sounds. I love the sound of the 302 windsor but i hate the sound of a 350 small block and I don't mind the sound of a ls1. He said the 302 sounds different because the distributor is in the front and the ls1 sounds more import because it's all plastic. Regardless, I believe it all boils down to bore stroke firing order and cam.
LS1 bore 3.898 stroke 3.622 firing order 18726543 198/208 .500 lift
350 sbc bore 4.000 stroke 3.480 firing order 18436572 230~240 at .350 lift to 312/326 at .390/.410 lift (depending on year)
302 sbf bore 4.000 stroke 3.000 firing order 15426378 274-280/274-290 with .448-480~ lift (depending on if it's HO and what year really 302s varied so damn much)
Bore, stroke, cam and firing order can make a big difference.

[E38740iMD]

To my un experienced ear. Most of the v8s sound the same. The number of cylinders have its own note in the exhaust hence why the v12 engines sounds very good and almost similiar.. yes the bore and cam changes it slightly but most high power v8s start to sound real close. Im talking 800+hp.

OP Prolly heard some ordinary exhaust modded 3.6 and encountered a the 3.8 with a who knows what setup. People think my m30 sounds likes some thing else

[Jacobw]

To my un experienced ear. Most of the v8s sound the same. The number of cylinders have its own note in the exhaust hence why the v12 engines sounds very good and almost similiar.. yes the bore and cam changes it slightly but most high power v8s start to sound real close. Im talking 800+hp.

OP Prolly heard some ordinary exhaust modded 3.6 and encountered a the 3.8 with a who knows what setup. People think my m30 sounds likes some thing else

There aren't that many 800 hp 302 or 350 and even most ls1s unless they have an unreasonable sized turbo then all I hear is boost boost and some more boost. Who doesn't like that sound on anything? (dare I say even a honda)
The 3.6 sounds a bit different than the 3.8, mod for mod. I personally think they both sound great. Even better with boost!
Only way you'll make 800 horse on a honda :devillook
548358

[wilourosen]

I love these threads and I hate these threads, everyone gets so fanboy over a motor. When I did pits for dirt track racing I was talking to one of the push truck drivers about different v8 sounds. I love the sound of the 302 windsor but i hate the sound of a 350 small block and I don't mind the sound of a ls1. He said the 302 sounds different because the distributor is in the front and the ls1 sounds more import because it's all plastic. Regardless, I believe it all boils down to bore stroke firing order and cam.
LS1 bore 3.898 stroke 3.622 firing order 18726543 198/208 .500 lift
350 sbc bore 4.000 stroke 3.480 firing order 18436572 230~240 at .350 lift to 312/326 at .390/.410 lift (depending on year)
302 sbf bore 4.000 stroke 3.000 firing order 15426378 274-280/274-290 with .448-480~ lift (depending on if it's HO and what year really 302s varied so damn much)
Bore, stroke, cam and firing order can make a big difference.

Makes sense, comes down to acoustics.
To me the 3.6 sounds different than the 3.8, same way the M60 sounds different than the M62. And im talking all stock exhausts.

I am a musician and my ears are trained to perceive minute differences in tones coming from instruments and acoustics where most people can't hear it.
Teddy Rowe at Metric Mechanic who has worked in both 3.6 and 3.8 engined told me the injectors are different, the intake manifold is different, the bores are different, the cam is different etc...

There is nothing ridiculous about it, Lexus has just spent a enormous amount of money to have Yamaha design their exhaust system. Engine notes are a really big part of the feel of a car.

[gtopaul]

Lexus has just spent a enormous amount of money to have Yamaha design their exhaust system. Engine notes are a really big part of the feel of a car.

My Volvo has a Yamaha V8 in it and it sounded anemic so I installed a stainless cat back system and now it sounds like a V8. (Ok, I really wanted the four exhaust pipes out the back.) Who really cares about what a stock system sounds like when there are so many different exhaust and muffler combinations on the market to pretty much tune it anyway you want.

[E38740iMD]

My Volvo has a Yamaha V8 in it and it sounded anemic so I installed a stainless cat back system and now it sounds like a V8. (Ok, I really wanted the four exhaust pipes out the back.) Who really cares about what a stock system sounds like when there are so many different exhaust and muffler combinations on the market to pretty much tune it anyway you want.

+1

- - - Updated - - -


There aren't that many 800 hp 302 or 350 and even most ls1s unless they have an unreasonable sized turbo then all I hear is boost boost and some more boost. Who doesn't like that sound on anything? (dare I say even a honda)
The 3.6 sounds a bit different than the 3.8, mod for mod. I personally think they both sound great. Even better with boost!
Only way you'll make 800 horse on a honda :devillook
548358

:laugh

i wasnt talking about the 302 and 350....because i have no idea what that is :shifty

[93FIM5]

Makes sense, comes down to acoustics. To me the 3.6 sounds different than the 3.8, same way the M60 sounds different than the M62. And im talking all stock exhausts. I am a musician and my ears are trained to perceive minute differences in tones coming from instruments and acoustics where most people can't hear it. Teddy Rowe at Metric Mechanic who has worked in both 3.6 and 3.8 engined told me the injectors are different, the intake manifold is different, the bores are different, the cam is different etc... There is nothing ridiculous about it, Lexus has just spent a enormous amount of money to have Yamaha design their exhaust system. Engine notes are a really big part of the feel of a car.

Ok your source is wrong.
- cams are the same part just different cam gears.
- plenums are the same just different velocity stacks due to increased bore.
- injectors are the same and can be used interchangeably, check realoem.

The real differences in the b36 and b38 are some head cooling work, bore and stroke, heavier flywheel in the b38, cam gears, throttle bodies, and most importantly engine management. The cats were also changed out for more efficient units but that's about it. They are the same animal just tweaked.

-Greg

[E38740iMD]

is it true then the b38 was distributorless? that was news to me

[93FIM5]

is it true then the b38 was distributorless? that was news to me

Yea it's coil on plug and uses a newer version of motronic.

[BleedsBlue]

B38 is coil-on-plug, yes. Does not affect sound, though ;)

[E38740iMD]

Yea it's coil on plug and uses a newer version of motronic.

cool. learned my fun fact for the day

[Binjammin]

Yea it's coil on plug and uses a newer version of motronic.

Yeah man, but you can really hear that updated motronic, and the roar of that updated cooling system? Hooo boy.

The problem is that people assume accoustics are part of the "feel" of a car. The problem is that while sound provides feedback from an engine, it actually gives no real haptics. This is why people puy noisy hot air intakes on a car and swear they're making 20 extra horsepower, but the dyno shows they've lost 10hp. That's also a large part of why automakers have in-car noisemakers now, to fool people into thinking engine noise is important. It's also why the idea of driving a 535 over a 540 is ridiculous. You want noise? An m60 will noise it up like a college kid trying to annoy the neighbors if you want. If you were deaf, you'd pick the 540 every time for literally every reason.

[jimmyz66]

On a side note regarding M60/M62, the engine can make a huge difference. I had my M62 built up to 4.9L with S62 crankshaft, JE pistons, Arrow rods and more aggressive cams. The exhaust system stayed the same- Eisenmann Race muffler and cat delete. The sound went from mean to JJ Watt mean. But, what I like, it is not a raspy crackle, but a deep V8 growl. So, in the case of going from 3.6 to 3.8L make a sound difference?

[wilourosen]

On a side note regarding M60/M62, the engine can make a huge difference. I had my M62 built up to 4.9L with S62 crankshaft, JE pistons, Arrow rods and more aggressive cams. The exhaust system stayed the same- Eisenmann Race muffler and cat delete. The sound went from mean to JJ Watt mean. But, what I like, it is not a raspy crackle, but a deep V8 growl. So, in the case of going from 3.6 to 3.8L make a sound difference?

They do sound different:

3.6
https://youtu.be/Ma7muXb5fZA

https://youtu.be/jVuJD0or7OU

3.8

https://youtu.be/htfZItFClSs

https://youtu.be/vK4tlFdCj5s

https://youtu.be/1uxEyVzNgZM

The E9 in the last video prob has a cust exhaust but still you hear the engine clearly.

[Binjammin]

They do sound different:

3.6
https://youtu.be/Ma7muXb5fZA

https://youtu.be/jVuJD0or7OU

3.8

https://youtu.be/htfZItFClSs

https://youtu.be/vK4tlFdCj5s

https://youtu.be/1uxEyVzNgZM

The E9 in the last video prob has a cust exhaust but still you hear the engine clearly.

:rofl :rofl


Beyond that those all sound very similar, they were all shot with totally different audio equipment under totally different conditions, windows up/windows down, location in car, and with unknown mods on each car. Clearly a scientific test. :rolleyes

[lktree]

Okay, I'll play. I'm also a pro musician, I have good ears, I listened to the above clips. Can I hear a difference? Of course... they're all different. Does that mean they're actually different? No - because there are too many variables. The mics on the different recording devices have different frequency responses. The mics are held in different positions. Each car has different acoustic dampening dynamics going on, which changes the frequencies that leak into the cabin. Varying quality between recordings. Who knows what exhaust/intake set-ups... etc.

There could be a difference, sure, but you can't use random youtube videos as proof. If you took 10 3.6 cars and 10 3.8 cars, all fresh out of the factory and recorded them with pro gear on the same day in the same place, and can still hear a difference, then you might have something.

Edit: as already pointed out by Ben just before me, lol

[prash]

Too many confounding variables but the 2nd 3.6 video and the 1st 3.8 video sound almost the same.

My advise. Take a logic class in school wil.

[zubbie]

Most musicians i know are half deaf. Oh the 70's. I blame ted nugent for my hearing loss.

[Binjammin]

Most musicians i know are half deaf. Oh the 70's. I blame ted nugent for my hearing loss.


What?

[zubbie]

What?


I said Wango ze Tango!

[e24mpwr]

People, can we stay sort of moderately on-topic?

[Jacobw]

How about this, go buy me a 3.6 m5 and a 3.8 m5 and I'll drive them around for a while and tell you which one I don't want.

[The Night Rider]

I have an old Honda with an exhaust leak just after the cat. It sounds like a damn fine lawnmower.

I also feel that there is a noticeable difference in exhaust tone between M50 and M52, but its probably my imagination (have not compared with exact same exhaust system)

I kind of don't know what this thread is about, so cannot say more.

[Redfive]

I feel that engine sound definitely drives your opinion of an engine's performance. My 328 has a BMW Performance exhaust system. Sounds amazing. Pops and crackles. The full song under WOT makes me smile everytime. (There's a reason I'm getting worse MPG than my X3 in a smaller, lighter, more efficient car.) I challenge you to drive a normal 328 back to back to my 328 and not say that my car sounds and feels faster and has a better engine, when in fact there's no difference in the engine or it's performance.
The lack of sound from my turbo M30 under WOT bothers me. Yeah it's fast and there's a lot of whooshing but it doesn't seem as enjoyable. It's for that same reason, I wonder if I could ever be really happy in an electric car (even if its an insane mode P90D) because I want that aural stimulation.
I've also made a lot of incremental changes to my cars over the years with the same exhaust system and agree that each change makes a slight difference in the harmonics. So it makes total sense that the b38 sound different than the b36. S50 to S52.

[E38740iMD]

I have an old Honda with an exhaust leak just after the cat. It sounds like a damn fine lawnmower.

I also feel that there is a noticeable difference in exhaust tone between M50 and M52, but its probably my imagination (have not compared with exact same exhaust system)

I kind of don't know what this thread is about, so cannot say more.

i think most m5x and s50-s52 engines sound the same with a performance exhaust (borla etc). but the s54 sound a hell of a lot different


my brothers e36 2.8 with borla exhaust sound like a s52 with a uuc exhaust. amd my friends e36 2.8 vert sounds close as he has a ebay muffler that is not as deep