Why is so much hate on automatic cars in this section?

[BMWM5E34]

I also read other sections of Bimmerforums, but mainly the E34, E32, E38 and E31 ones. In the E34 one almost everybody seems to dislike automatic transmissions. Why?
Being this an American forum and being the USA the country that not only invented the automatic gearbox in the first place (or at least, first successful automatic cars are American as far as I know), but also the one that uses this type of transmission in a greater number than any other country in the world, one would expect some respect for this kind of vehicles; there isn't much however.

Everytime someone presents his new automatic E34 either expresses his plans on swapping the transmission for a manual or simply receives suggestions telling him that he should do so.

Can't you enjoy a fine automobile with a fine autobox? I love manual gearboxes in the appropriate car, but I also enjoy a good automatic with its silky smooth power delivery and relaxed driving experience.
After having owned a couple of E34s and test-driven a few more, including an M5 E34 3.8 and a 540i 6 speed (wich by the way started life as a 525i 12v lol), I conclude that the BMW E34 with automatic transmission is pretty enjoyable and fun to drive.
The M5 is the only model that needs the manual; it wouldn't feel right with an auto, but then it is a completely different animal compared to any other 5 Series.

Where does all this manual fanatism come from?
Maybe this is because in the US manuals are so rare and driving one makes you stand out of the crowd, so petrolheads seem to prefer them over the automatic somehow feeling more in tune with their passion this way.
As I see it, driving a manual doesn't make you a better driver nor more car-nut than any other. Yes, manual cars can be lots of fun, but so can automatics!

Let's discuss in a friendly manner. :thumbup:

[Worra]

Having owned both, I'll agree that the auto in the E34 isn't bad to drive, but I drive a manual for the fun and engagement of it.

[BMWM5E34]

Having owned both, I'll agree that the auto in the E34 isn't bad to drive, but I drive a manual for the fun and engagement of it.

Manuals are pretty fun too,there's no denying, but the auto suits in the big old E34 just fine.

[mboor]

A man needs a man's transmission. that is all.

p.s. - Manual transmissions DO make you a better drive. Unless you don't know how to drive a standard very well. Then it makes you dangerous.

[BMWM5E34]

A man needs a man's transmission. that is all.

p.s. - Manual transmission DO make you a better drive. Unless you don't know how to drive a standard very well. Then it makes you dangerous.

You see? This kind of stuff drives me mad.
No offense intended, man, but that claim doesn't make any sense. You even drive a 750i E38, like I do, wich was only offered as an automatic!!
Does that make you a little girl or what? Do you feel less of a man when you're driving your big V12 saloon down the road? C'mon! Be serious.

Isn't a '67 Imperial or a '67 Continental a manly car?! They don't come any more manly than those!! lol.
So you must think a Ford Ka 1.3 is a much better option for a real man with good taste for real cars, because MANUAL. Ha, ha.


No, they don't. Of course it is good to know how to operate both types of transmissions and everyone with a driving license should know.
But in Europe around 90% of the cars are manual and you see terrible drivers everywhere you look.

So, again, driving a manual doesn't automatically turn you into a good driver in the same way that driving an auto doesn't turn you into a bad one.

[S61Dan]

Because the auto boxes in these cars arent known to be reliable? My m50 5spd is sorta slow, couldnt imagine how slow it would be with an auto. Its personal preferance. Who cares what trans is in your car? Buy whatever the heck you want. You want an auto? Buy an auto. You want a stick? Buy a stick

[BMWM5E34]

Because the auto boxes in these cars arent known to be reliable? My m50 5spd is sorta slow, couldnt imagine how slow it would be with an auto. Its personal preferance. Who cares what trans is in your car? Buy whatever the heck you want. You want an auto? Buy an auto. You want a stick? Buy a stick

In what car are they reliable? Mercedes and Audis from that time have their issues too.
I don't think they're particulary unreliable if properly used and maintained.

[demetk]

A man needs a man's transmission. that is all.

p.s. - Manual transmissions DO make you a better drive. Unless you don't know how to drive a standard very well. Then it makes you dangerous.

Truth. Even my wife wouldn't be caught dead in an auto. She says people who drive autos should take yearly driving tests to verify driving ability and their cell phones should be confiscated. Believe it or not. :)

[BMWM5E34]

Truth. Even my wife wouldn't be caught dead in an auto. She says people who drive autos should take yearly driving tests to verify driving ability and their cell phones should be confiscated. Believe it or not. :)

Idiots text and drive with manuals too. She wouldn't like to drive a, let's say, Mercedes CL500? Hard to believe.

Funny enough, the most horrible and dangerous drivers I've met don't even know how to drive an automatic.

[e34Croak]

I support automatic transmissions.


Just not in old BMWs.

[demetk]

She's always driven a manual and is not impressed with the new luxury cars. KISS is her motto. Give her the the 89 turbo e34 or the 88 e28 and she's happy. And whenever she drives, she is keenly aware of the morons in their autos with their heads stooped downwards gazing at their cell phones. It's a huge problem over here in the US.

[lktree]

It's pretty simple really: reliability and enthusiastic driving.
A manual transmission offers more of both, especially in an older BMW.

[longwayhome23]

My E46 has 205K on it, and is still on the original clutch. My E36 was working on its third automatic transmission by that mileage. Yes, I like a manual for the engagement/involvement of driving. I also like the fact that it's cheaper to replace a worn out clutch disc than a worn out auto trans. My E34 is a stick, and I would LOVE a manual-swapped E38. But truth be told, if I were going to sit in heavy commuter traffic for two hours each day, I'd doubtless prefer an automatic for that duty. So we all have our preferences, and I don't get too bent out of shape over what others drive. Or prefer.

[PorscheH6]

M5 came stick only for a reason.

80s-90s transmissions generally suck. Slow and stupid. Modern stuff is miles away in comparison.

[BMWM5E34]

She's always driven a manual and is not impressed with the new luxury cars. KISS is her motto. Give her the the 89 turbo e34 or the 88 e28 and she's happy. And whenever she drives, she is keenly aware of the morons in their autos with their heads stooped downwards gazing at their cell phones. It's a huge problem over here in the US.

Morons who drive while using their phones should be banned from the roads. I think everyone agrees on that.
But it's not only an auto drivers' thing. Probably it is in the US, since I understand that most manual drivers are enthusiasts who care about driving.


It's pretty simple really: reliability and enthusiastic driving.
A manual transmission offers more of both, especially in an older BMW.

I'll give you the reliability bit, but the 'enthusiastic driving' subject is arguable.

I have much more fun driving an old 750i E32 than driving a Golf GTi.


My E46 has 205K on it, and is still on the original clutch. My E36 was working on its third automatic transmission by that mileage. Yes, I like a manual for the engagement/involvement of driving. I also like the fact that it's cheaper to replace a worn out clutch disc than a worn out auto trans. My E34 is a stick, and I would LOVE a manual-swapped E38. But truth be told, if I were going to sit in heavy commuter traffic for two hours each day, I'd doubtless prefer an automatic for that duty. So we all have our preferences, and I don't get too bent out of shape over what others drive. Or prefer.

The E38 also came with manual transmissions (except 750i and 740d), but I don't see the point of a 7 Series with a manual. Even its rival, the Mercedes W140, came with manual option for the 6 cylinder versions. Pointless in such a car.

I neither see the point on a Z3 automatic, but it's a matter of preferences on both cases.

[Binjammin]

In a car with a manual transmission, the clutch is the fuse. Even if you're replacing the flywheel, you're talking like ... $1200 or so max to replace the clutch. When the automatic is the fuse, it costs significantly more to repair.

[BMWM5E34]

M5 came stick only for a reason.

80s-90s transmissions generally suck. Slow and stupid. Modern stuff is miles away in comparison.

They came with manual transmission only because the automatic doesn't match with the M5's philosophy, not because the automatics weren't good.
The 500E W124 with its 4 speed automatic was just as fast as the M5 E34 with the 5 speed manual, but they're different concepts.

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In a car with a manual transmission, the clutch is the fuse. Even if you're replacing the flywheel, you're talking like ... $1200 or so max to replace the clutch. When the automatic is the fuse, it costs significantly more to repair.

Automatics are overall more expensive to repair. That's true.

[south42]

Why do you care? I hate autos. My choice and that's it.




Andy

[bfp9]

I don't understand your decision to take personal offense to people disliking automatic transmissions.

It'd be like me taking offense to you not like tuna sandwiches if you didn't like tuna.

[BMWM5E34]

Why do you care? I hate autos. My choice and that's it.




Andy

Forums are meant to share opinions, observations and facts, and also to debate. That's what I'm doing.

I was a bit surprised with this subject and I've stated very clearly why. A bit of discussion doesn't harm anybody.

Your response was very informative and constructive. Thank you.

I don't understand your decision to take personal offense to people disliking automatic transmissions.

It'd be like me taking offense to you not like tuna sandwiches if you didn't like tuna.

Where did I state that I get offended by others not liking automatics? lol
That would be really dumb.

This thread is just a personal observation that leads to a debate.


P.S: I do like tuna sandwiches. Ha, ha.

[AndrewH]

Hey. Who cares.

[Worra]

My E46 has 205K on it, and is still on the original clutch. My E36 was working on its third automatic transmission by that mileage. Yes, I like a manual for the engagement/involvement of driving. I also like the fact that it's cheaper to replace a worn out clutch disc than a worn out auto trans. My E34 is a stick, and I would LOVE a manual-swapped E38. But truth be told, if I were going to sit in heavy commuter traffic for two hours each day, I'd doubtless prefer an automatic for that duty. So we all have our preferences, and I don't get too bent out of shape over what others drive. Or prefer.


Just need to travel to the other coast :D

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/5181346054.html

[ross1]

E34s were sold in far greater numbers with automatics(in the USA at least)but there is a vastly different owner demographic twenty years later. There are a lot of guys who think the E34 is a sports car, never mind that they serve as taxis in their homeland.

Those who bash automatics or those who drive them haven't spent enough time slogging through big city traffic, in a snowstorm. If all my driving were for pleasure, on interesting roads, I'd never own an automatic. An automatic comes in very handy in my world often enough. I vacillate between wanting manual and automatic. Usually after slogging through some winter heavy traffic with a manual I'm ready for another autobox.

[e34Croak]

Hey. Who cares.
Hey, don't chu get loud in here!

OP and the other mucky are having a field day with these feel good threads. Be happy, for once in your life!

[ShapeShifter]

I thoroughly enjoy both.

[illiano]

Automatic for pansy. Manual for hombre

Come at meh, I'm totally cereal

[thatonedood]

I don't understand your decision to take personal offense to people disliking automatic transmissions.

It'd be like me taking offense to you not like tuna sandwiches if you didn't like tuna.

Wait wait wait wait WAIT! Doe's the sandwich have a manual transmission?

[Sam Son]

the autos these cars are saddled with are sluggish and boring.

[BMWM5E34]

E34s were sold in far greater numbers with automatics(in the USA at least)but there is a vastly different owner demographic twenty years later. There are a lot of guys who think the E34 is a sports car, never mind that they serve as taxis in their homeland.

Those who bash automatics or those who drive them haven't spent enough time slogging through big city traffic, in a snowstorm. If all my driving were for pleasure, on interesting roads, I'd never own an automatic. An automatic comes in very handy in my world often enough. I vacillate between wanting manual and automatic. Usually after slogging through some winter heavy traffic with a manual I'm ready for another autobox.

Very interesting point, that might be the key. The majority of current E34 owners aren't the same kind of people that would've bought the car new back in the day, wich leads to misunderstandings regarding the real E34's nature.

The E34 is not by any means a sports car; I've also observed that some people believe that.
It is a luxury sedan with a little sporty touch for its class, but it is what it is.

For driving on exciting curvy roads the E34 isn't the best choice anyway. I would fully understand this anti-automatic trend in the Z3 section, but not in the E34 5 Series one.

[ericsyzf]

I own a 540i/6 and a 540ia. I like them both for different reasons. The 5HP30 is a great transmission and works very well if maintained. I think the auto is pretty fast especially in S4, but the 6spd will always be more fun. Taking away the fun factor I think the biggest drawback of the auto is the cost to fix.

[S61Dan]

I don't understand your decision to take personal offense to people disliking automatic transmissions.

It'd be like me taking offense to you not like tuna sandwiches if you didn't like tuna.

http://imglogo.podbean.com/image-logo/741011/Cover-Art.png

[E28E34]

OP: I give you a lot of credit for writing what you have. People trash automatics in BMWs for many years. Understandably, this is an BMW-enthusiast site, and typically BMW-car enthusiasts prefer manuals. I'd love a nice E34 M5 or 540i 6-spd. But unfortunately, not all of us are so lucky. Some of us, don't have time to wait for several months to find the perfect manual car in good shape. In my case, the condition of the vehicle, how it was maintained is crucial and primary over the transmission type. I could only find 1 `84 533i auto. that met this criteria. I wanted a 5-spd. - but couldn't find one. Same with the E34. The ZF in the 533i was problematic, even with maintenance - whereas the GM auto in the E34 has been much better. Automatics are a bit of a gamble, with their 'hocus-pocus' attributes as one journalist put. "If you look at an automatic the wrong way it can fail." Have also heard from the same individual, "the automatic is there to serve you, drive it as you wish" (selecting a lower gear and driving it spiritedly at high revs). All of our BMWs have been automatics... a `84 533i, `93 525i, and a `72 2002... God forbid yes, that was an auto too! And as ross1 put so nicely, a lot of it has to do with where you drive and your lifestyle. And sometimes it's just the way it works out. You find a really nice example and it's an auto. You enjoy it as the OP said, and enjoy the positives. Like anything, there are pros and cons. But I agree, it's a shame people trash them so much. I've opened my cars at shows, and some will say, "it's an automatic?!" in a disappointed tone. Yeah, it happens sometimes. But when you have only one car, and are in more stop and go traffic than you'd like, an auto is nice. It's so funny, because nowadays getting a manual in a new car, or just seeing or hearing someone driving one on the road (in the US) is rare. BMW and VW and a few others, proudly advertised if the car was fitted with a automatic back in the 60s and 70s. They fitted a script badge "automatic" - It was partly to gain sales by letting others know, yeah, it's a compact/sports car, and you can get one in an auto! Wow! The 2002 and the `75-`76 E12 530i are the only US-spec BMWs that I've seen. My father had a `81 320i and purposely chose an auto as a LA traffic was too bad. Heck, one of the members from Green Day converted a 2002 into a automatic due to LA traffic! Oh the horror! And on the flip side, it's my understanding converting an auto to a manual is no simple or cheap task. One day, I'll own a manual. But in the meantime I am enjoying my automatic for what it's worth and so are a good deal of others.

[BMWM5E34]

Automatic for pansy. Manual for hombre

Come at meh, I'm totally cereal

Those are childish arguments.

To keep in tune with your stupidity, I will say that feeling the need to hold and operate a lever with your right hand while driving is pretty homo.

According to your "logic" the Mercedes C63 AMG is for pussies while the stunning Peugeot 206 1.6 HDI is for real machos. lol. Very funny.


the autos these cars are saddled with are sluggish and boring.

No, they're not. In fact the transmissions in these cars are some of the best ZF had to offer at that time.

Of course a modern ZF 8HP is better, but then, the whole F10 5 Series that equips it is better aswell.
There's no point comparing old vs. new.

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I own a 540i/6 and a 540ia. I like them both for different reasons. The 5HP30 is a great transmission and works very well if maintained. I think the auto is pretty fast especially in S4, but the 6spd will always be more fun. Taking away the fun factor I think the biggest drawback of the auto is the cost to fix.

Very reasonable. You can enjoy the same car in two different ways.

Having and enjoying both types of transmissions takes away lots of absurd prejudgments.

[illiano]

Those are childish arguments. To keep in tune with your stupidity, I will say that feeling the need to hold and operate a lever with your right hand while driving is pretty homo. According to your "logic" the Mercedes C63 AMG is for pussies while the stunning Peugeot 206 1.6 HDI is for real machos. lol. Very funny. No, they're not. In fact the transmissions in these cars are some of the best ZF had to offer at that time. Of course a modern ZF 8HP is better, but then, the whole F10 5 Series that equips it is better aswell. There's no point comparing old vs. new.

Congratulations, facetious/sarcastic understanding is not your forté ;)

[S61Dan]

tldr
Op makes thread and gets upset when people disagree with him.

[BMWM5E34]

OP: I give you a lot of credit for writing what you have. People trash automatics in BMWs for many years. Understandably, this is an BMW-enthusiast site, and typically BMW-car enthusiasts prefer manuals. I'd love a nice E34 M5 or 540i 6-spd. But unfortunately, not all of us are so lucky. Some of us, don't have time to wait for several months to find the perfect manual car in good shape. In my case, the condition of the vehicle, how it was maintained is crucial and primary over the transmission type. I could only find 1 `84 533i auto. that met this criteria. I wanted a 5-spd. - but couldn't find one. Same with the E34. The ZF in the 533i was problematic, even with maintenance - whereas the GM auto in the E34 has been much better. Automatics are a bit of a gamble, with their 'hocus-pocus' attributes as one journalist put. "If you look at an automatic the wrong way it can fail." Have also heard from the same individual, "the automatic is there to serve you, drive it as you wish" (selecting a lower gear and driving it spiritedly at high revs). All of our BMWs have been automatics... a `84 533i, `93 525i, and a `72 2002... God forbid yes, that was an auto too! And as ross1 put so nicely, a lot of it has to do with where you drive and your lifestyle. And sometimes it's just the way it works out. You find a really nice example and it's an auto. You enjoy it as the OP said, and enjoy the positives. Like anything, there are pros and cons. But I agree, it's a shame people trash them so much. I've opened my cars at shows, and some will say, "it's an automatic?!" in a disappointed tone. Yeah, it happens sometimes. But when you have only one car, and are in more stop and go traffic than you'd like, an auto is nice. It's so funny, because nowadays getting a manual in a new car, or just seeing or hearing someone driving one on the road (in the US) is rare. BMW and VW and a few others, proudly advertised if the car was fitted with a automatic back in the 60s and 70s. They fitted a script badge "automatic" - It was partly to gain sales by letting others know, yeah, it's a compact/sports car, and you can get one in an auto! Wow! The 2002 and the `75-`76 E12 530i are the only US-spec BMWs that I've seen. My father had a `81 320i and purposely chose an auto as a LA traffic was too bad. Heck, one of the members from Green Day converted a 2002 into a automatic due to LA traffic! Oh the horror! And on the flip side, it's my understanding converting an auto to a manual is no simple or cheap task. One day, I'll own a manual. But in the meantime I am enjoying my automatic for what it's worth and so are a good deal of others.

Thank you. I totally agree, sometimes the transmission isn't the priority and sometimes having an auto is the most convenient thing to do, even if you like the manual driving experience aswell.

Oh yeah, I remember those old 60s and 70s cars with the word AUTOMATIC sitting proudly on the bootlid. This was also a Mercedes' thing, along with some others.

The French cars also loved to advertise things like "5 Speeds!!", "16 valves!! or "ABS!!" by writting them on the bootlid. Pretty funny from today's point of view.


Congratulations, facetious/sarcastic understanding is not your forté ;)

Sorry, but perceiving the sarcastic sense can be pretty hard in a written form.:D

To be honest, your previous comment was very clichéd and silly, so probably I should've guessed it better. Maybe it isn't. LOL.

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tldr
Op makes thread and gets upset when people disagree with him.

No, I don't. It's okay if you don't like automatics, but things like: "Automatics are for sissies, real men use three pedals." are just full stupidity.

[S61Dan]

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No, I don't. It's okay if you don't like automatics, but things like: "Automatics are for sissies, real men use three pedals." are just full stupidity.

I like both to be honest. I HAVE both. Like I said before it's personal preferance. To each his own.

[BMWM5E34]

I like both to be honest. I HAVE both. Like I said before it's personal preferance. To each his own.

Then we agree.

[priler]

none of you have given the correct answer so far.

there're 2 main reasons for the bashing and overall negativity on/for autos here.

the first is called The Mob Mentality. this is a strange and sometimes weird fact that tends to happen in all forums. it doesn't matter if it's a gun forum or a car one. this can be so strong that sometimes even those who are neutral on the subject or actually have a counter opinion will generally keep quite on the matter.


the second reason is BMW's fault. it comes from that "lifetime fill" stupidity. every owner who just bought an auto is always worried about a failure. this put even more pressure or hatred on the autos.



i'll remind you all that,at the time,only Porsche had a comparable auto worthy of putting in any car that had any kind of sportiness. you guys do understand how the 5HP30 works and what it does,right? for comparison,the MB auto of this same time period,although very reliable,was a clunky POS and it never changed it's nature. if you were taking a corner aggressively,your practically guaranteed to be in the wrong gear,including when accelerating out of a corner,unless you shifted yourself and even then,it sucks for that.


ever heard a 540iA throw a bunch of downshift when coming from a pretty fast pace to a complete stop and the revs blipping up like it thought it was a manual? sometimes even manual guys will just coast and not downshift constantly.


yeah,it's not the same but it's not bad (or the worst out there) either.

[XCRN]

I will enjoy any car with a manual, I will only enjoy a select few cars with and automatic.

[gtopaul]

Very interesting point, that might be the key. The majority of current E34 owners aren't the same kind of people that would've bought the car new back in the day, which leads to misunderstandings regarding the real E34's nature.

Pretty much true. I worked at a BMW dealership for 14 years and the two things they couldn't sell were wagons and stick shifts. Nobody wanted them. Put them in the loaner fleet and nobody wanted to drive them. Always sold heavily discounted.

[5mall5nail5]

The autos in these cars are unreliable. They can't handle any additional torque than they handle from the factory, and they die even under those conditions. That, and if you're trying to accelerate through a corner and hang in 2nd gear but the trans shifts into third for you... so you floor it to downshift, and it doesn't, or maybe it does... or maybe it doesn't... or maybe it does....

Its not very fun. I don't really care what anyone else drives but I can't see a GM 4 spd being fun in a tossable car. I have friends with built autos in supras and other fast cars and its not very fun in those either.

[bagekko]

Out of the 10 BMWs I have owned 3 have been automatics, the X3 and X5 there is no choice, that leaves 1 of 8 and it was my first E34 a 95 530i. I learned on a manual, my first 2 cars were manual. Of the 16 cars I have owned 5 have been autos, and only 3 of them were by choice.

I actually liked my M60 530i auto, it was a decent automatic, just a little lag when putting the pedal to the metal. Zero problems in 225k miles. I wouldn't say I hate autos, I just like shifting and control. Though driving my E60 M5 6 speed in rush hour stop and go traffic is very tiring. Luckily I am not in that type of traffic often.

I drove all the new Ms at the BMW Performance Center which all had DCT. I was never a SMG fan because of reliability, but I would definitely pick DCT when getting a new M.

[E34prease]

I will enjoy any car with a manual, I will only enjoy a select few cars with and automatic.

This is the most logical thing I've read this whole thread, except I would add a very in front of select. The only place I would prefer an auto would if it was competition based and I needed every single millisecond I could get. Even then I'd be wishing it was a manual. I realize these auto trans in e34s don't shift very fast and thus, for me, there is no point for them. I hear the traffic explanation a lot and I daily drive a 530i/5 in Chicago and I really don't see it as an issue, more as an excuse. Even in bumper to bumper Id rather just pop it in neutral and relax than to sit on the brakes. I picked up a 525ia for cheap and drove that around a bit but could not get myself to keep driving it, even though it was in much better condition.

[M540fella]

I own a 540i/6 and a 540ia. I like them both for different reasons. The 5HP30 is a great transmission and works very well if maintained. I think the auto is pretty fast especially in S4, but the 6spd will always be more fun. Taking away the fun factor I think the biggest drawback of the auto is the cost to fix.
I do as well. I purchased msport 540ia first because I couldn't drive a stick and fell in love with the e34 design. I had always driven autos, and the 5hp30 is one of the best autos I had ever driven. I have lots of friends that think it's a relatively fast/fun car.I have a blast around our mountain roads. The trans was already rebuilt once,by the po, but that was at 155k. It was rather expensive.
I bought my 540i/6 to swap transmissions with the auto but after teaching myself to drive it I changed my mind. I have decided to keep it for now, but if the msport auto does go out again I have it waiting.
I will agree that everyone should learn how to drive a manual. It's a good thing to know, and does make you more engaged in what you're doing. However manuals are going the way of the dinosaur , so it's really a skill that won't be as needed as in the past.

[E39540V8]

I have a 540A, BMW don't have any factory manual 540's in Australia. I love it in peak hour traffic. I have to say though it is a great auto, compared to the GM 4 speed auto in my old car, it is awesome. As a daily commuter in the city, auto with steptronic is pretty darn good.

E39540v8

[stoney85]

In fact the transmissions in these cars are some of the best ZF had to offer at that time.

Of course a modern ZF 8HP is better, but then, the whole F10 5 Series that equips it is better aswell.
There's no point comparing old vs. new.


This is the exact reason why we dislike the auto's, its plainly obvious, most people have driven newer model cars with automatics that are modern, getting back into an E34 you realise that the car is at least 20 years old now, and the auto is average.

A manual gearbox for that matter gives some good feedback when having a spirited drive, really makes you feel in control of the driving style and more.

Also, and this is the main reason we prefer manuals, is because we are enthusiasts, as stated, these were just a car people used initially as work cars, family duties, etc, purchased by the everyday person. Now 20 years on and they are affordable to everyone, yet the reason we are on the forum is because we have a desire to learn more about the car, to share our experiences and what not. Those who prefer autos also generally aren't the ones who frequent a forum website.

I have an auto in my E34 540i, would much prefer a manual, 6 speed manual conversion will give me better hwy fuel economy, increase the power from not having an auto/torque convertor, allow me to really enjoy the occasion spirited drive whiles being in control, no undesired gear change mid corner, controlled engine braking, much better resale.

Here in aus, there was 70 E34 540i/6 sold, and when one does come up for sale, the lowest ive seen is 10k and it was rough, theres one for $15k, but i think he's off with the fairies smoking something if he expects that price. but you can pick up an Auto 540i for $4-6k, I got mine for $2k, but it needed some work to be reliable.

Guess what the only thing left that i don't feel confident about is? yep, the auto, it's due for another oil flush, but rarely on cold mornings, it plays up, slips/bangs into gear, not really confidence inspiring.

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I have a 540A, BMW don't have any factory manual 540's in Australia. I love it in peak hour traffic. I have to say though it is a great auto, compared to the GM 4 speed auto in my old car, it is awesome. As a daily commuter in the city, auto with steptronic is pretty darn good.

E39540v8


Actually, they do.
http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/BMW-540i-1995/SSE-AD-587706/?Cr=1

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/kensington-grove/cars-vans-utes/1995-bmw-540i-sedan-e34-sleeper-/1087030697

[Redfive]

I want to point out, that if it wasn't for the US market, the current M cars would not have an optional manual gearbox. BMW discovered that they can't sell those cars in this market without that option. Sadly, few actually take the option, but atleast there are some who do.
Europeans like manuals in their low powered commuters and the flappy paddles for their sports cars.
Americans like autos in everything except for their sports cars.
That being said I've never owned an automatic BMW. Anything automatic before 2006 is garbage in my book. That's when they started getting decent autos. I have no complaints with the current 8 speed.

[zubbie]

Unlike the original owners of our cars most of us enjoy the E34 because it's a "drivers car". I.E. you feel connected to the experience.

The autos of that era (and the steering box for that matter) diminish that experience imo. Like having ankle weights on while running.

oh and did someone say they crap out often?

[Bimmerick]

Being this an American forum and being the USA the country that not only invented the automatic gearbox in the first place...

America is also still "the land of the free....", a country that places a high value on individual freedoms and liberty. With a manual transmission, the driver has the freedom to choose what gear the car is in.

The driver of a car with a manual transmission is in control. This driver is not interested in letting "the man", the establishment, a committee, the government, a dictator, or some ZF engineer decide what gear he or she will drive in. This driver has freedom to choose...

Of course this driver is also free to choose an automatic, but anyway...


The M5 is the only model that needs the manual...

Interesting that you use the word "needs". Individual freedoms are not about "needs"...

Maybe these words popularized by Karl Marx sound familiar: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

What about these words: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

You see friend here in America our forefathers fought for my God given right to drive a car with a manual transmission, my right to decide for myself what gear I choose to be in. It has nothing to do with "needs".


Where does all this manual fanatism come from?

Maybe this is because in the US manuals are so rare and driving one makes you stand out of the crowd, so petrolheads seem to prefer them over the automatic somehow feeling more in tune with their passion this way.

Let's discuss in a friendly manner. :thumbup:

You insult freedom loving Americans by suggesting that we are "fanatics", are only interested in self-attention; you call us "petrolheads", and then you say "let's discuss in a friendly manner (with a thumbs up smiley face)"...???

DON'T TREAD ON ME...

[gtopaul]

Out of the 10 BMWs I have owned 3 have been automatics, the X3 and X5 there is no choice, that leaves 1 of 8 and it was my first E34 a 95 530i.

Actually there have been manual transmission X-3's and X-5's. You have to search around for one because they weren't popular.

[Redfive]

I had a manual transmission 2006 X3. It took about 4 months to find. It was a great car. I put 110k on it in just under 6 years. Never an issue, only minor maintenance stuff. Great car to drive and I'm sure I'll miss it this winter. You just have to look hard. That's the case with a lot of the newer BMWs. I replaced my X3 with a 328 touring. It took me a year to find the car I wanted (and wasn't sold by the time I contacted the seller). I did have to fly to pick it up and drive home, but it was totally worth it.
If it's important enough to you, you can find a way.

[SVD115]

The e34 5 is a gentleman's sports car
Sedate and easy to drive as a manual and a cracker when you get into it
The auto is just stupid in it, it's not great, a little slow, it's that kid every school has
Not a nerd,not a sporty guy, just meh
That's the e34 auto
I wouldn't have my e34 any other way
Manual and sports interior
You want to cruise?
Get a swb 7
That's what i did.

[Binjammin]

I had a manual transmission 2006 X3. It took about 4 months to find. It was a great car. I put 110k on it in just under 6 years. Never an issue, only minor maintenance stuff. Great car to drive and I'm sure I'll miss it this winter. You just have to look hard. That's the case with a lot of the newer BMWs. I replaced my X3 with a 328 touring. It took me a year to find the car I wanted (and wasn't sold by the time I contacted the seller). I did have to fly to pick it up and drive home, but it was totally worth it.
If it's important enough to you, you can find a way.

Eh, it was boomy in the back seat with the noise, rode weird back there too. And it cost me an ipod. :shifty

[Redfive]

No that was the outback that cost you an iPod. Granted we were going to look at the x3.
Never rode in the back. Can't comment but I loved being in the driver's seat. It definitely got too stiff after upgrading to the sport suspension.

[Trasportador]

I do as well. I purchased msport 540ia first because I couldn't drive a stick and fell in love with the e34 design. I had always driven autos, and the 5hp30 is one of the best autos I had ever driven. I have lots of friends that think it's a relatively fast/fun car.I have a blast around our mountain roads. The trans was already rebuilt once,by the po, but that was at 155k. It was rather expensive.
I bought my 540i/6 to swap transmissions with the auto but after teaching myself to drive it I changed my mind. I have decided to keep it for now, but if the msport auto does go out again I have it waiting.
I will agree that everyone should learn how to drive a manual. It's a good thing to know, and does make you more engaged in what you're doing. However manuals are going the way of the dinosaur , so it's really a skill that won't be as needed as in the past.

Whoa bro, I'd never have thought you could not drive stick. Manual going the way of the Dino you say? The only way I'll give mine up is if my left leg gets amputated. Actually, if things went south of the border, and I had to cut all bills, I'd sell all other cars I have and keep my 540/6

[Trasportador]

The e34 5 is a gentleman's sports car
Sedate and easy to drive as a manual and a cracker when you get into it
The auto is just stupid in it, it's not great, a little slow, it's that kid every school has
Not a nerd,not a sporty guy, just meh
That's the e34 auto
I wouldn't have my e34 any other way
Manual and sports interior
You want to cruise?
Get a swb 7
That's what i did.

Everything this guy said...

[BMWM5E34]

none of you have given the correct answer so far.

there're 2 main reasons for the bashing and overall negativity on/for autos here.

the first is called The Mob Mentality. this is a strange and sometimes weird fact that tends to happen in all forums. it doesn't matter if it's a gun forum or a car one. this can be so strong that sometimes even those who are neutral on the subject or actually have a counter opinion will generally keep quite on the matter.


the second reason is BMW's fault. it comes from that "lifetime fill" stupidity. every owner who just bought an auto is always worried about a failure. this put even more pressure or hatred on the autos.



i'll remind you all that,at the time,only Porsche had a comparable auto worthy of putting in any car that had any kind of sportiness. you guys do understand how the 5HP30 works and what it does,right? for comparison,the MB auto of this same time period,although very reliable,was a clunky POS and it never changed it's nature. if you were taking a corner aggressively,your practically guaranteed to be in the wrong gear,including when accelerating out of a corner,unless you shifted yourself and even then,it sucks for that.

ever heard a 540iA throw a bunch of downshift when coming from a pretty fast pace to a complete stop and the revs blipping up like it thought it was a manual? sometimes even manual guys will just coast and not downshift constantly.


yeah,it's not the same but it's not bad (or the worst out there) either.

That is true, it's always hard to go against the current.

You're right, the 5HP30 is very impressive for its time. It feels so good and reacts fast to your demands.

I love Mercedes from that period too, especially the W140, but the autoboxes aren't as good as the BMW ones. There isn't even a sports mode and to keep it in a low gear you have to lock it in 3 or 2 all the time or just floor it until your foot comes right through the footwell and into the engine compartment. lol.



I will enjoy any car with a manual, I will only enjoy a select few cars with and automatic.

Believe me, my friend, you won't. The shittiest cars I've ever driven were all manual.
Manual gearboxes can be very enjoyable in a 911, but in an econobox they're nasty and hateable.


Pretty much true. I worked at a BMW dealership for 14 years and the two things they couldn't sell were wagons and stick shifts. Nobody wanted them. Put them in the loaner fleet and nobody wanted to drive them. Always sold heavily discounted.

Happens the same today. How many F10 do they sell with a manual? Not many.
This kind of car is usually prefered to be automatic by the average buyer.


The autos in these cars are unreliable. They can't handle any additional torque than they handle from the factory, and they die even under those conditions. That, and if you're trying to accelerate through a corner and hang in 2nd gear but the trans shifts into third for you... so you floor it to downshift, and it doesn't, or maybe it does... or maybe it doesn't... or maybe it does....

Its not very fun. I don't really care what anyone else drives but I can't see a GM 4 spd being fun in a tossable car. I have friends with built autos in supras and other fast cars and its not very fun in those either.

That's logical and efficient engineering. Why putting a big expensive transmission capable of handling up to 1000Nm if the engine will only produce 400Nm? Would be such a waste.

That is not true, I'm afraid. You can lock the transmission in 2nd gear and it won't upshift unless you redline the engine, wich makes perfect sense.

[mboor]

You see? This kind of bullshit drives me mad.
No offense intended, man, but that claim doesn't make any sense. You even drive a 750i E38, like I do, wich was only offered as an automatic!!
Does that make you a little girl or what? Do you feel less of a man when you're driving your big V12 saloon down the road? C'mon! Be serious.

Isn't a '67 Imperial or a '67 Continental a manly car?! They don't come any more manly than those!! lol.
So you must think a Ford Ka 1.3 is a much better option for a real man with good taste for real cars, because MANUAL. Ha, ha.


No, they don't. Of course it is good to know how to operate both types of transmissions and everyone with a driving license should know.
But in Europe around 90% of the cars are manual and you see terrible drivers everywhere you look.

So, again, driving a manual doesn't automatically turn you into a good driver in the same way that driving an auto doesn't turn you into a bad one.

You asked for opinions, and you got mine, and a lot other similar opinions to mine. Sorry you don't like it, but that is your problem for posting this thread in a forum where the overwhelming majority prefer something that you dont. Then you get upset when people don't agree with you. Come on man, you walked into a lions den with a ny strip around your neck. I love my 750il, if it had 100k less miles i would have swapped a 6 speed into it, because i prefer a standard trans. I feel like just as much of a man driving it, because it has 12 cylinders, which makes up for the womans transmission. For the record, my 750il autotragic transmission Blew up years ago, and its on its second.

A 67 imp or continental arn't exactly manly cars. They were luxo barges that anyone could drive. A 67 tripower vette, or a big block chevelle with a muncie are mans cars of that era. Theres Nothing manly about a 1.3L ford, but i'd gladly take the manual trans over an auto in that turd box. Your putting words in my mouth i never said, and thats not appriciated.

I thought you wanted to dicuss this in a friendly manner, I stated my opinion, not in an unfriendly way, and you got butt hurt and started frothing at the mouth. Sounds like you need some time behind a manual transmission buddy.

[south42]

Also we are only talking about the e34s not other cars so why do you keep comparing it to other cars? Manual in e34 good. I do not care about other crap cars. Yes this is forum for discussing, but you seem to want to call people silly and stupid which I do not see anyone else doing, so stick to what you said in the very first post.


Andy

[BMWM5E34]

I have a 540A, BMW don't have any factory manual 540's in Australia. I love it in peak hour traffic. I have to say though it is a great auto, compared to the GM 4 speed auto in my old car, it is awesome. As a daily commuter in the city, auto with steptronic is pretty darn good.

E39540v8

They provide a very relaxed driving even when you're stuck in those horrible and endless traffic jams.


This is the exact reason why we dislike the auto's, its plainly obvious, most people have driven newer model cars with automatics that are modern, getting back into an E34 you realise that the car is at least 20 years old now, and the auto is average.

A manual gearbox for that matter gives some good feedback when having a spirited drive, really makes you feel in control of the driving style and more.

Also, and this is the main reason we prefer manuals, is because we are enthusiasts, as stated, these were just a car people used initially as work cars, family duties, etc, purchased by the everyday person. Now 20 years on and they are affordable to everyone, yet the reason we are on the forum is because we have a desire to learn more about the car, to share our experiences and what not. Those who prefer autos also generally aren't the ones who frequent a forum website.

I have an auto in my E34 540i, would much prefer a manual, 6 speed manual conversion will give me better hwy fuel economy, increase the power from not having an auto/torque convertor, allow me to really enjoy the occasion spirited drive whiles being in control, no undesired gear change mid corner, controlled engine braking, much better resale.

Here in aus, there was 70 E34 540i/6 sold, and when one does come up for sale, the lowest ive seen is 10k and it was rough, theres one for $15k, but i think he's off with the fairies smoking something if he expects that price. but you can pick up an Auto 540i for $4-6k, I got mine for $2k, but it needed some work to be reliable.

Guess what the only thing left that i don't feel confident about is? yep, the auto, it's due for another oil flush, but rarely on cold mornings, it plays up, slips/bangs into gear, not really confidence inspiring.

- - - Updated - - -




Actually, they do.
http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/BMW-540i-1995/SSE-AD-587706/?Cr=1

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/kensington-grove/cars-vans-utes/1995-bmw-540i-sedan-e34-sleeper-/1087030697

In fact it is a 20+ year old car. Every part of the E34 shouts 1980's!!
It is an advanced car for its time and the autoboxes are not exception, but it's still an old car and there's nothing wrong with it. The owner's handbook says "Printed in West Germany". It's that old. lol.

I am an enthusiast and I quite enjoy driving an automatic, especially if it is bolted to a bigger engine.

[XCRN]

Believe me, my friend, you won't. The shittiest cars I've ever driven were all manual.
Manual gearboxes can be very enjoyable in a 911, but in an econobox they're nasty and hateable.

My first car I bought with my own money was a 90 Accord with a manual. Perfect example of an econobox and I enjoyed it so much I am seriously wanting to buy another to replace the other econobox in my life, a 99 Corolla with an auto. When I had the Accord I lived in a very populated area always stop and go traffic, never did I once think to my self I want an auto in my life. My E34 is one of those cars I will enjoy as an auto but I don't want it to be like that for too long.

[BMWM5E34]

Out of the 10 BMWs I have owned 3 have been automatics, the X3 and X5 there is no choice, that leaves 1 of 8 and it was my first E34 a 95 530i. I learned on a manual, my first 2 cars were manual. Of the 16 cars I have owned 5 have been autos, and only 3 of them were by choice.

I actually liked my M60 530i auto, it was a decent automatic, just a little lag when putting the pedal to the metal. Zero problems in 225k miles. I wouldn't say I hate autos, I just like shifting and control. Though driving my E60 M5 6 speed in rush hour stop and go traffic is very tiring. Luckily I am not in that type of traffic often.

I drove all the new Ms at the BMW Performance Center which all had DCT. I was never a SMG fan because of reliability, but I would definitely pick DCT when getting a new M.

For me the M5 E60 fits better with the manual, but sadly they never sold them with manual in Europe.:(


Unlike the original owners of our cars most of us enjoy the E34 because it's a "drivers car". I.E. you feel connected to the experience.

The autos of that era (and the steering box for that matter) diminish that experience imo. Like having ankle weights on while running.

oh and did someone say they crap out often?

I'm not sure about that, original owners enjoyed them just as much, if not more, than we do.
I would have loved to own and drive a brand new E34 back in the 90s, but I couldn't even reach the pedals at that time. :D

The manual and the rack and pinion give you a more connected feeling, that's true, but the E34's character is not all about sporty driving, it has to be comfortable too.

America is also still "the land of the free....", a country that places a high value on individual freedoms and liberty. With a manual transmission, the driver has the freedom to choose what gear the car is in.

The driver of a car with a manual transmission is in control. This driver is not interested in letting "the man", the establishment, a committee, the government, a dictator, or some ZF engineer decide what gear he or she will drive in. This driver has freedom to choose...

Of course this driver is also free to choose an automatic, but anyway...



Interesting that you use the word "needs". Individual freedoms are not about "needs"...

Maybe these words popularized by Karl Marx sound familiar: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

What about these words: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

You see friend here in America our forefathers fought for my God given right to drive a car with a manual transmission, my right to decide for myself what gear I choose to be in. It has nothing to do with "needs".



You insult freedom loving Americans by suggesting that we are "fanatics", are only interested in self-attention; you call us "petrolheads", and then you say "let's discuss in a friendly manner (with a thumbs up smiley face)"...???

DON'T TREAD ON ME...

I respect your choice, it is fine if you feel more free driving a manual. In reality, the automatic also allows you to select whatever gear you desire, but still, I respect your choice.

Yes, the M5 needs the manual because a torque converter doesn't match with its sports European car character. But the M5 is a unique car, pretty much a sports car dressed as a luxury saloon.

Are you suggesting I'm a communist just because I believe that the M5 wouldn't feel right with an automatic gearbox? Very funny indeed. http://www.roto2.com/roto2.gif

Well, your forefathers' nation has 99% automatic cars and 1% manual ones, so you should come to the old Europe, where more than 80% of cars are manual, to enjoy the real unparalleled freedom provided by pushing a pedal with your left leg and moving a lever with your right hand!

I don't see how "petrolhead" is offensive, I consider myself one. Maybe I'm not aware of its real meaning. Enlighten me.

[Binjammin]

No that was the outback that cost you an iPod. Granted we were going to look at the x3.
Never rode in the back. Can't comment but I loved being in the driver's seat. It definitely got too stiff after upgrading to the sport suspension.

Was it an Outback? I still have pics from that day somewhere but I can't find them. :/ I thought we were in something taller than an outback though. I chalk up the ipod loss to the x3 because we were looking at it, not the vehicle we took down there, and certainly not to my own stupidity for leaving it on the roof :D

The x3 def rode way different in the front than in the back seat. Night and day.

[mybeatupe34]

I'm going to take a leap and admit something 90% of the lurkers are thinking. I drive a 540 auto and choose not to drive a stick because, wait for it, I'm lazy. Don't tell anyone though. But I do like to drive a manual. I just get bored and tired of shifting all. The. Time. Sometimes I wanna be lazy. Which is most of the time.

[ShapeShifter]

Even the mighty e34 m5 is slow by today's standards. If one wants fast car buy something else.

[BMWM5E34]

The e34 5 is a gentleman's sports car
Sedate and easy to drive as a manual and a cracker when you get into it
The auto is just stupid in it, it's not great, a little slow, it's that kid every school has
Not a nerd,not a sporty guy, just meh
That's the e34 auto
I wouldn't have my e34 any other way
Manual and sports interior
You want to cruise?
Get a swb 7
That's what i did.

The E34 5er is a gentleman's luxury sedan, not at all a sports car. An Audi R8 is a sports car, the E34 isn't.

The auto isn't slow, it shifts way faster than most drivers do with a manual.

I also did, but IMHO the 5 Series is just a baby 7 Series. The E34 is just a smaller E32 with less luxury equipment and no LWB version.
The E34 is an executive sedan wich means it is also the perfect cruiser: comfy and luxurious interior, very good sound insulation and effortless power to maintain high speeds on the Autobahn in total comfort.


You asked for opinions, and you got mine, and a lot other similar opinions to mine. Sorry you don't like it, but that is your problem for posting this thread in a forum where the overwhelming majority prefer something that you dont. Then you get upset when people don't agree with you. Come on man, you walked into a lions den with a ny strip around your neck. I love my 750il, if it had 100k less miles i would have swapped a 6 speed into it, because i prefer a standard trans. I feel like just as much of a man driving it, because it has 12 cylinders, which makes up for the womans transmission. For the record, my 750il autotragic transmission Blew up years ago, and its on its second.

A 67 imp or continental arn't exactly manly cars. They were luxo barges that anyone could drive. A 67 tripower vette, or a big block chevelle with a muncie are mans cars of that era. Theres Nothing manly about a 1.3L ford, but i'd gladly take the manual trans over an auto in that turd box. Your putting words in my mouth i never said, and thats not appriciated.

I thought you wanted to dicuss this in a friendly manner, I stated my opinion, not in an unfriendly way, and you got butt hurt and started frothing at the mouth. Sounds like you need some time behind a manual transmission buddy.

That "woman's transmission" type of thing is silly. Most of the women I know drive a manual and don't even know how to drive an automatic. Driving a manual isn't that big of a deal to be honest.

Well, you suggest automatic drivers aren't manly enough. That's not very friendly, is it?

No, I don't. I started driving manual cars only and after a few years I bought my first automatic. I even own a 318i E36 manual and drive other manual cars regularly.
I'm not at all against manual gearboxes, I like them. What I don't like is the irrational hate on the automatics.

Also we are only talking about the e34s not other cars so why do you keep comparing it to other cars? Manual in e34 good. I do not care about other crap cars. Yes this is forum for discussing, but you seem to want to call people silly and stupid which I do not see anyone else doing, so stick to what you said in the very first post.


Andy

I didn't insult anyone. I misunderstood Illiano's message, that's all.



My first car I bought with my own money was a 90 Accord with a manual. Perfect example of an econobox and I enjoyed it so much I am seriously wanting to buy another to replace the other econobox in my life, a 99 Corolla with an auto. When I had the Accord I lived in a very populated area always stop and go traffic, never did I once think to my self I want an auto in my life. My E34 is one of those cars I will enjoy as an auto but I don't want it to be like that for too long.

Everyone loves his first car. The first car I drove was a Fiat Brava 1.4 SX and I enjoyed it very much, just because it was a car and for the first time I was driving it!
But that Fiat is crap, to be perfectly honest.:D

Manuals are very annoying in stop and go traffic, but some people like suffering.

[5mall5nail5]

Most women you know do not know how to drive an automatic?

Cmon dude.

[BMWM5E34]

I'm going to take a leap and admit something 90% of the lurkers are thinking. I drive a 540 auto and choose not to drive a stick because, wait for it, I'm lazy. Don't tell anyone though. But I do like to drive a manual. I just get bored and tired of shifting all. The. Time. Sometimes I wanna be lazy. Which is most of the time.

Don't be ashamed, lazy people lead the world to advance!!

If it wasn't for lazy people there wouldn't be any elevators, remote controllers, washing machines, drive thrus, mops with a stick, vacuum cleaners, home link garage openers, drinking helmets (lol), power windows, power steering, power brakes, power seats, power everything!!
And of course, there wouldn't be any automatic transmission or automatic anything for that matter. :D

[XCRN]

True it was maybe the first car I had with my money but I also had as the first car I ever drove was a 96 Accord before that with a slightly more powerful engine and an auto but even then it was only slightly better than taking the bus. I got the 90 and was devistated when I had to take the bus again after driving it for a year and a half. I have driven many cars and to list the supposedly fun auto cars I have driven; 06 G35, 78/81/81/87 Corvette (one with a 500hp purpose built drag engine), and a new Charger. Nothing appealed to me long term as my old Honda, much less this 93 Ford Ranger with a manual that is mine but its not mine.

But I get why some enthusiasts are fond of autos even though they can drive a stick. I will say this however, if I have kids they will learn to drive on a stick so they can drive anything if an emergency arrises. They are free to drive anything they want but they must know hiw to drive a stick.

[BMWM5E34]

Most women you know do not know how to drive an automatic?

Cmon dude.

Absolutely true. In Spain, as in the rest of Europe I believe, you must pass your driving test with a manual car and they never mention the existence of the automatic ones, not a single time.

Most people don't know the meaning of the letters P-R-N-D and some say it's too complicated for them. LOL :lol3
I know it sounds weird.

- - - Updated - - -


True it was maybe the first car I had with my money but I also had as the first car I ever drove was a 96 Accord before that with a slightly more powerful engine and an auto but even then it was only slightly better than taking the bus. I got the 90 and was devistated when I had to take the bus again after driving it for a year and a half. I have driven many cars and to list the supposedly fun auto cars I have driven; 06 G35, 78/81/81/87 Corvette (one with a 500hp purpose built drag engine), and a new Charger. Nothing appealed to me long term as my old Honda, much less this 93 Ford Ranger with a manual that is mine but its not mine.

But I get why some enthusiasts are fond of autos even though they can drive a stick. I will say this however, if I have kids they will learn to drive on a stick so they can drive anything if an emergency arrises. They are free to drive anything they want but they must know hiw to drive a stick.

I agree on that, it's better to know how to drive both.

I test-drove a Corvette C6 automatic and I loved it!! If I bought a Corvette it would probably be manual, but I don't mind the automatic. It feels really good.

[mboor]

The E34 5er is a gentleman's luxury sedan, not at all a sports car. An Audi R8 is a sports car, the E34 isn't.

The auto isn't slow, it shifts way faster than most drivers do with a manual.

I also did, but IMHO the 5 Series is just a baby 7 Series. The E34 is just a smaller E32 with less luxury equipment and no LWB version.
The E34 is an executive sedan wich means it is also the perfect cruiser: comfy and luxurious interior, very good sound insulation and effortless power to maintain high speeds on the Autobahn in total comfort.



That "woman's transmission" type of thing is silly. Most of the women I know drive a manual and don't even know how to drive an automatic. Driving a manual isn't that big of a deal to be honest.

Well, you suggest automatic drivers aren't manly enough. That's not very friendly, is it?

No, I don't. I started driving manual cars only and after a few years I bought my first automatic. I even own a 318i E36 manual and drive other manual cars regularly.
I'm not at all against manual gearboxes, I like them. What I don't like is the irrational hate on the automatics.


I didn't insult anyone. I misunderstood Illiano's message, that's all.




Everyone loves his first car. The first car I drove was a Fiat Brava 1.4 SX and I enjoyed it very much, just because it was a car and for the first time I was driving it!
But that Fiat is crap, to be perfectly honest.:D

Manuals are very annoying in stop and go traffic, but some people like suffering.

The "womans transmission" was ment as an off handed joke, to further Russel your feathers, relax man. In my experience, in the US women are more akin to automatics. I know exactly 2 women that know how to drive a standard, and only 1 is halfway decent at it. Maybe things are different in Madrid. I don't think the dislike of automatics is irrational like you suggest, there are very good reasons why most of us here prefer a manual trans. They are cheaper to repair, more reliable, less maintenance and more enjoyable to drive for most enthusiasts, whom make up the majority of the folks on this forum.

For the record, i don't hate automatics, i just prefer a standard trans. In another 20 years, when my knees don't work anymore and my back problems get worse, my opinion may change. But for now, i'll row my own gears.

[XCRN]

I think what I have noticed is the unpopular transmission choice is the one enthusiasts prefer. As automotive enthusiasts we like to stand out from normal drivers and one way to do it is with the transmission. I had a conversation with someone native to Europe and questioned why I would want put so much effort into a manual swap and stated around his area autos were prefered by enthusists for this type of car even though manuals were more common around there. So there is your answer, despite this section being international, majority of its members reside in North America so you will see more manual fans than auto.

[BMWM5E34]

The "womans transmission" was ment as an off handed joke, to further Russel your feathers, relax man. In my experience, in the US women are more akin to automatics. I know exactly 2 women that know how to drive a standard, and only 1 is halfway decent at it. Maybe things are different in Madrid. I don't think the dislike of automatics is irrational like you suggest, there are very good reasons why most of us here prefer a manual trans. They are cheaper to repair, more reliable, less maintenance and more enjoyable to drive for most enthusiasts, whom make up the majority of the folks on this forum.

For the record, i don't hate automatics, i just prefer a standard trans. In another 20 years, when my knees don't work anymore and my back problems get worse, my opinion may change. But for now, i'll row my own gears.

No problem. :) I see your point, most women don't give a damn about cars, so why bother learning the complicated way when you can just stick it into D and drive?


They are indeed, in Spain most people hate automatics even though most people has never driven one. This is the promissed land to the E34 section of Bimmerforums! LOL :lol3

Those are real arguments and I respect them. What you stated before about manly and girly transmissions weren't.
I know you were joking, that's fine. :)


But don't you enjoy your 750iL as it is? I don't see why can't everybody enjoy both manual and automatic cars. I think it is the wisest thing to do.

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I think what I have noticed is the unpopular transmission choice is the one enthusiasts prefer. As automotive enthusiasts we like to stand out from normal drivers and one way to do it is with the transmission. I had a conversation with someone native to Europe and questioned why I would want put so much effort into a manual swap and stated around his area autos were prefered by enthusists for this type of car even though manuals were more common around there. So there is your answer, despite this section being international, majority of its members reside in North America so you will see more manual fans than auto.

Very true, the cultural difference plays a major role in this subject.
BMW is one of the few companies that sold manual high performance cars in North America back in the 80s and 90s, whereas in Europe manuals are everywhere and you only see automatic transmissions in high end luxury vehicles.
I guess that's why American enthusiasts love the idea of a manual high performance sedan and the BMW 5 Series is one of the few options available (the Mercury Marauder, Chevy Impala SS and all those big powerful sedans that you had were all autos).

Anyway, I try to be open to all kinds of different transmissions, engines and types of cars.
Everyone has his preferences, of course.

[mboor]

Honestly, i love driving my 750il. The automatic in it does everything very well. Nice and smooth, comfortable shifts when in drive, and nice firm quick shifts when in sport mode. This is the only auto BMW i own, and it's nice to get in it and just cruise without worrying about that third pedal. Like i said, if it were 100k miles less, id strongly consider a manual swap. But its fine just the way it is. An Auto is completely acceptable in a car of this nature. I would never even consider an auto in my M3. I think it all boils down to the type of car, and the driving style of the owner

[wilourosen]

Im a die Hard fan of manual transmissions. Bought a E32 735i 5 speed and hated it, sold it with absolutely no regret.
One week later i bought a 750iL with auto tranny of course, it was like falling in love. Some cars are meant to be autos to be enjoyed.

[e34Croak]

Automatic e34's deserve exactly what they get, a swift death in the crusher.

[mboor]

Im a die Hard fan of manual transmissions. Bought a E32 735i 5 speed and hated it, sold it with absolutely no regret.
One week later i bought a 750iL with auto tranny of course, it was like falling in love. Some cars are meant to be autos to be enjoyed.

there is some merit to this.

[Redfive]

Some cars are meant to be autos to be enjoyed.
Yeah, like my Honda Odyessey. Don't want that in a stick.
I don't hate modern 6,7,8,9 speed autos. I like when they have manual shift options. I don't hate DCTs.

I have a problem deciding which is worse. A CVT, any automatic built before 2000, or a root canal.

[BMWM5E34]

Im a die Hard fan of manual transmissions. Bought a E32 735i 5 speed and hated it, sold it with absolutely no regret.
One week later i bought a 750iL with auto tranny of course, it was like falling in love. Some cars are meant to be autos to be enjoyed.

I share this belief, sir.

[Polaris15]

Meh. Auto 535i to commute, M3 when i feel like rowing. Don't really care what the fan boys think one way or another, I'm always comfortable.

[BMWM5E34]

Honestly, i love driving my 750il. The automatic in it does everything very well. Nice and smooth, comfortable shifts when in drive, and nice firm quick shifts when in sport mode. This is the only auto BMW i own, and it's nice to get in it and just cruise without worrying about that third pedal. Like i said, if it were 100k miles less, id strongly consider a manual swap. But its fine just the way it is. An Auto is completely acceptable in a car of this nature. I would never even consider an auto in my M3. I think it all boils down to the type of car, and the driving style of the owner

Exactly, it depends on the type of car and driving style. We share the same point of view.

An M3 wouldn't feel right with an auto for me either.


Automatic e34's deserve exactly what they get, a swift death in the crusher.


You just went full retard, buddy. Never go full retard.

[mboor]

Yeah, like my Honda Odyessey. Don't want that in a stick.
I don't hate modern 6,7,8,9 speed autos. I like when they have manual shift options. I don't hate DCTs.

I have a problem deciding which is worse. A CVT, any automatic built before 2000, or a root canal.

CVT is worst by far, followed by the root canal. If the auto trans can shift faster than me, it will get some consideration.

[BMWM5E34]

Meh. Auto 535i to commute, M3 when i feel like rowing. Don't really care what the fan boys think one way or another, I'm always comfortable.

That's the attitude! ;)

[whiskychaser]

The E34 probably found a market in the US as a prestige motor car. People who drive those want labour saving devices like electric windows and automatic gearboxes. If a car is hard work, they either don't buy it or they employ a chauffeur. But as has been said, 20 years on and the owner demographic has changed. The question was not which is better, auto or manual but why the auto gets such bad press. Perhaps those who have suffered from could confirm? Otherwise it is an urban myth at best. A bit like 'your auto trans explodes if you change the ATF'

I find the equation between the ability to drive a manual and being an enthusiast amusing. I can only conclude that 99% of people in Europe are enthusiasts. They just don't know it. Years ago, I worked for a car rental company. I won't name it but it sounds a lot like the name Mavis. This brought me in contact with a lot of American visitors. Nobody asked but they were all quite forceful about their ability to drive. I have a number of experiences but this is one of my favourites:

I had to take a replacement car out to a driver who claimed the car would only do 50mph. It was a manual and he had driven it from Heathrow Airport to a service area north of Birmingham. That's a distance of 200 miles, all of which is motorway. At that point he had had enough of this 'Limey piece of crap'. He demanded I drive it to confirm how bad it was. Now a UK service area isn't that big. I could get 50 in second but only just under 70 in third. Then I ran out of room. I drove back to the customer and casually enquired which gear he had been driving in. He said ''Gear? What do you mean 'gear', boy? I put it in drive''.

[demetk]

Most people don't know the meaning of the letters P-R-N-D and some say it's too complicated for them. LOL :lol3
I know it sounds weird.


Reminds me of this guy who kept bringing his auto BMW into the service center because he kept blowing up his transmission. After the third replacement the service manager had to ask the guy what exactly he was doing to the car to have the transmission blow up. The guy said "I nothing wrong. All I did was, when I got on the highway I put it in R for "race" then bang!"

[mboor]

Driving a manual isnt a requirement to be an automotive enthusiast. There is a broad range of enthusiasts, but i think the ones who really enjoy driving are more drawn to manual transmissions. It provides a direct connection between the driver and drive train. The driver is in control, not some transmission control module calling the shots for them. As you take vehicle control away from the drive, it takes away from the driving experience as well.

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And that is a funny and completely believable story Whiskychaser. I've been in the auto industry 20 years and i have my share of similar experiences.

[jimmyz66]

Yeah, like my Honda Odyessey. Don't want that in a stick.
I don't hate modern 6,7,8,9 speed autos. I like when they have manual shift options. I don't hate DCTs.

I have a problem deciding which is worse. A CVT, any automatic built before 2000, a root canal and a visit to a proctologist.

Fixed.:)

[mboor]

Reminds me of this guy who kept bringing his auto BMW into the service center because he kept blowing up his transmission. After the third replacement the service manager had to ask the guy what exactly he was doing to the car to have the transmission blow up. The guy said "I nothing wrong. All I did was, when I got on the highway I put it in R for "race" then bang!"

i remember being a small child, riding in moms 635csi (automatic of course, because mom) and asking her if the "R" was for race lol.

[e34Croak]

You just went full retard, buddy. Never go full retard.
Would you use this term if you had a child with a developmental disability?

[BMWM5E34]

The E34 probably found a market in the US as a prestige motor car. People who drive those want labour saving devices like electric windows and automatic gearboxes. If a car is hard work, they either don't buy it or they employ a chauffeur. But as has been said, 20 years on and the owner demographic has changed. The question was not which is better, auto or manual but why the auto gets such bad press. Perhaps those who have suffered from could confirm? Otherwise it is an urban myth at best. A bit like 'your auto trans explodes if you change the ATF'

I find the equation between the ability to drive a manual and being an enthusiast amusing. I can only conclude that 99% of people in Europe are enthusiasts. They just don't know it. Years ago, I worked for a car rental company. I won't name it but it sounds a lot like the name Mavis. This brought me in contact with a lot of American visitors. Nobody asked but they were all quite forceful about their ability to drive. I have a number of experiences but this is one of my favourites:

I had to take a replacement car out to a driver who claimed the car would only do 50mph. It was a manual and he had driven it from Heathrow Airport to a service area north of Birmingham. That's a distance of 200 miles, all of which is motorway. At that point he had had enough of this 'Limey piece of crap'. He demanded I drive it to confirm how bad it was. Now a UK service area isn't that big. I could get 50 in second but only just under 70 in third. Then I ran out of room. I drove back to the customer and casually enquired which gear he had been driving in. He said ''Gear? What do you mean 'gear', boy? I put it in drive''.

Exactly, the E34 is all about comfort and luxury. It has things like electric seats, wood trim, electric sunshade, cruise control, autobox, etc. Not your average sportscar's equipment.

I agree. From the European point of view those statements are a bit ridiculous because most cars are manual. Even grandmas drive manual cars here.

Very funny experience, I wonder how did the guy manage to get the car going in the first place. :lol3
200 miles in one gear, that qualifies for a world record, ha, ha.


Reminds me of this guy who kept bringing his auto BMW into the service center because he kept blowing up his transmission. After the third replacement the service manager had to ask the guy what exactly he was doing to the car to have the transmission blow up. The guy said "I nothing wrong. All I did was, when I got on the highway I put it in R for "race" then bang!"

Ha, ha, I knew this joke, but instead race mode, rally mode. :lol3

Thank God he didn't put it in P to activate the passing gear.:icon28XX

Driving a manual isnt a requirement to be an automotive enthusiast. There is a broad range of enthusiasts, but i think the ones who really enjoy driving are more drawn to manual transmissions. It provides a direct connection between the driver and drive train. The driver is in control, not some transmission control module calling the shots for them. As you take vehicle control away from the drive, it takes away from the driving experience as well.

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And that is a funny and completely believable story Whiskychaser. I've been in the auto industry 20 years and i have my share of similar experiences.

You get different feelings, that's all. The torque converter gives you that smooth cushy sensation while in the manual everything is more direct as you mentioned.

I really enjoy driving and I'm drawn to both types, althought I don't like automated manuals (SMG, DSG, etc.) nor CVT to be honest.

i remember being a small child, riding in moms 635csi (automatic of course, because mom) and asking her if the "R" was for race lol.

When I was younger a friend's father had a big black Audi A8 and I thought the car would park itself by putting it in P. :lol3

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Would you use this term if you had a child with a developmental disability?

So, you start provoking but then can't take a joke?

[e34Croak]

So, you start provoking but then can't take a joke?
Provoking? Because I stated my opinion? I thought you were the one that welcomed this debate in the first place? Is your opinion more valid than mine? Is mine more valid than anyone else's? No.
So again, how was sharing my opinion in your thread considered 'provoking'?

[Saloon34]

Other than manuals being more engaging and fun to drive, autos of that era weren't that great. Not like today's autos that shift quickly, get better gas mileage and are usually faster than their manual counterpart (when offered).

[BMWM5E34]

Provoking? Because I stated my opinion? I thought you were the one that welcomed this debate in the first place? Is your opinion more valid than mine? Is mine more valid than anyone else's? No.
So again, how was sharing my opinion in your thread considered 'provoking'?

I know you can see the difference between provocative opinions and non provocative ones.

You already stated in the first page of this thread that you don't like automatic BMWs, which is fine, but later you claimed that automatic E34 deserve to be crushed.
Not that I care about this either, but it isn't very friendly considering there are some auto E34 owners in this section who actually enjoy and love their cars.

If I declared that all houses within a certain area, including yours, should be bombed, it wouldn't be just an innocent opinion but a provocative one.

[mybeatupe34]

Would you use this term if you had a child with a developmental disability? check. Mate.

[mybeatupe34]

Subscribed to this thread to actually see a little love for auto cars and the lazy people (like me) that drive them. Unsubscribed for the cancer of posts from OP. Manuals are awesome. And autos are great for cruising. This argument has gone from healthy to "who's the smartest kid in special Ed". Op is making me hate my auto. Thanks. Lol

[E39540V8]

Should have specified E39, not 34, although, and E34 would be nice too. Once you open your eyes to this era of BMW, E39, 28, 34, 31, 38, the garage just isn't big enough :)


This is the exact reason why we dislike the auto's, its plainly obvious, most people have driven newer model cars with automatics that are modern, getting back into an E34 you realise that the car is at least 20 years old now, and the auto is average.

A manual gearbox for that matter gives some good feedback when having a spirited drive, really makes you feel in control of the driving style and more.

Also, and this is the main reason we prefer manuals, is because we are enthusiasts, as stated, these were just a car people used initially as work cars, family duties, etc, purchased by the everyday person. Now 20 years on and they are affordable to everyone, yet the reason we are on the forum is because we have a desire to learn more about the car, to share our experiences and what not. Those who prefer autos also generally aren't the ones who frequent a forum website.

I have an auto in my E34 540i, would much prefer a manual, 6 speed manual conversion will give me better hwy fuel economy, increase the power from not having an auto/torque convertor, allow me to really enjoy the occasion spirited drive whiles being in control, no undesired gear change mid corner, controlled engine braking, much better resale.

Here in aus, there was 70 E34 540i/6 sold, and when one does come up for sale, the lowest ive seen is 10k and it was rough, theres one for $15k, but i think he's off with the fairies smoking something if he expects that price. but you can pick up an Auto 540i for $4-6k, I got mine for $2k, but it needed some work to be reliable.

Guess what the only thing left that i don't feel confident about is? yep, the auto, it's due for another oil flush, but rarely on cold mornings, it plays up, slips/bangs into gear, not really confidence inspiring.

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Actually, they do.
http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/BMW-540i-1995/SSE-AD-587706/?Cr=1

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/kensington-grove/cars-vans-utes/1995-bmw-540i-sedan-e34-sleeper-/1087030697

[whiskychaser]

This post is no. 98 and so far, nobody has answered OP's question.

[BMWM5E34]

Subscribed to this thread to actually see a little love for auto cars and the lazy people (like me) that drive them. Unsubscribed for the cancer of posts from OP. Manuals are awesome. And autos are great for cruising. This argument has gone from healthy to "who's the smartest kid in special Ed". Op is making me hate my auto. Thanks. Lol

Cancer of posts? Are you serious? LOL Why?
Alright, whatever. Close the door after leaving.

P.S: There are not any major differences when cruising. When driving down the motorway in a manual you put top gear and forget about it as if it was an auto.

This post is no. 98 and so far, nobody has answered OP's question.

It's a bit frustrating, but there have been some interesting and enriching responses too.

[Redfive]

Fixed.:)
Funny you say that. I turn 39 on Monday and that means I'm that much closer to those uncomfortable exams.

[thatonedood]

What was the question?

Also, this can hardly be a "debate" because it's nothing but personal preference. How can we effect change in x, y, z? That is a sort of question for debate. Why you no likey da slushbox? Not so much

[e34Croak]

What was the question?

Also, this can hardly be a "debate" because it's nothing but personal preference. How can we effect change in x, y, z? That is a sort of question for debate. Why you no likey da slushbox? Not so much
I feel as though thatonedude is provoking me. Are you questioning OP's deepness of such philosophical questions?
Have any of yous ever walked through a junkyard and stumbled across old, clapped-out, automatic BMW's? Has anyone ever asked themselves why this strange occurrence takes place? Is this phenomena specific to the Western region of the United States?

[thatonedood]

Oh you done been provokicated

[mboor]

They hold debates to decide who we want to vote in for president. Thats a matter of personal preferance also. Why not debate this issue? Like someone else said, At least its not another thread about leaking cooling systems

[thatonedood]

Lol. Yeah.. that's why they hold yelling pageants–er, debates

[demetk]

You can go faster in a 5-speed manual because of the extra gear. I think I heard that fact on top gear. Plus when you do an oil change it only takes 2 quarts in the manual vs 11 quarts for the auto. It's a mystery to me why the auto needs 9 extra quarts of oil. I mean they're almost the same size so what gives?

[priler]

You can go faster in a 5-speed manual because of the extra gear. I think I heard that fact on top gear. Plus when you do an oil change it only takes 2 quarts in the manual vs 11 quarts for the auto. It's a mystery to me why the auto needs 9 extra quarts of oil. I mean they're almost the same size so what gives?

HA! ;) best post so far.

[Redfive]

Look. I don't think anyone here hates people who have automatic transmissions. Most of us have tried a variety of E34 and have a STRONG preference for the manuals for the reasons listed. So when new people come on here and talk up and down about their new car and it's an automatic and they didn't try to get the version we prefer we give them a hard time. We perceive as a lack of effort. Especially when they say they've been looking for a while. So of us go to long lengths to acquire or ride.
There's a certain pride some of us take in our cars. The unique factor. What we've done to them. How they look etc. Consider it an indoctrination ritual.

[E28E34]

You can go faster in a 5-speed manual because of the extra gear. I think I heard that fact on top gear. Plus when you do an oil change it only takes 2 quarts in the manual vs 11 quarts for the auto. It's a mystery to me why the auto needs 9 extra quarts of oil. I mean they're almost the same size so what gives?
Depends on the auto. It's 7 Qts. total capacity in my auto. Typical fluid change needs about 5.3-6qts and other autos need around 3qts. Top speed between a manual and an auto is only a few mph or none in some cases. Be nice guys.

[BMWM5E34]

Look. I don't think anyone here hates people who have automatic transmissions. Most of us have tried a variety of E34 and have a STRONG preference for the manuals for the reasons listed. So when new people come on here and talk up and down about their new car and it's an automatic and they didn't try to get the version we prefer we give them a hard time. We perceive as a lack of effort. Especially when they say they've been looking for a while. So of us go to long lengths to acquire or ride.
There's a certain pride some of us take in our cars. The unique factor. What we've done to them. How they look etc. Consider it an indoctrination ritual.

Why should they choose the version you prefer? And why should you give them a hard time?
I don't see the lack of effort anywhere, just different preferences.

Take for example your own 535i GTR. I don't know the exact mods that it has but it seems like a lot.
You must've invested a lot of time, money and effort to make it look and perform the way you wanted. I respect and admire that.

But is your E34 really an E34? It doesn't drive like one nor look like a standard one anymore.
So, why should the opinions of those who think that the E34 is what really isn't or who turned their E34s into something different from what it initially was be more valid than the ones from the people who love the car just as it came out of the factory??

I mean, some of you are convinced about the E34 being a sports car when it really isn't.
Most E34s sold in North America were automatic and even in Europe, the land of the manual, many of them came also in automatic (standard in the 540i which was rather unusual for the time).

¿Was the majority of initial buyers of these cars a bunch of idiots who didn't understand the true essence of the E34? They thought this was a luxury sedan for driving at higher speeds in comfort and safely.
¿Or are you just trying to convince other people on your illussion, that is: the E34 is a sports car?
¿Is this the only truth, the path to follow for all new believers?

[Redfive]

What are you looking for? These are very deep philosophical questions. And we're talking about cars here. Most of us have more than 1 so it's not like we're looking for perfection. I think I unsubscribing from this.
My car has gone through many variations over the years. I haven't been happy with everything I do to it. Sometimes I want to sell it. Sometimes I want to drive it. Sometimes I want to change it again to suit my mood. Sometimes I feel like I should have sold it years ago or gotten something else. Nothing is perfect or ideal here. It fun to do and I don't judge other people based on what I did. Sometimes I get inspired to do something someone else did. And sometimes when I'm stuck in traffic with a race clutch I wish I had an auto. But then I remember I have 400+ft lbs of torque and I can leave the car in one gear and it will be fine (I don't shift out of 4th gear on most tracks because it is easier). Sometimes I think my car would be better on the track with a flappy paddle gearbox. Or maybe I need an e46 because a large sedan is a stupid starting point for a race car.
It was my first car 17 years ago and instead of building a car from the ground up I modified this one. I'm an engineer and I didn't get a job in automotive design so I made it my hobby. There is no single element that is essence of E34 goodness.

[S61Dan]

Begining to think op is a troll...

[longwayhome23]

Begining to think op is a troll...

Perhaps, but at least it's not the old M5 versus...well, you know. It's a new and different sort of pointless argument disguised as a question. The original question was about why some people so dislike automatics. That question has been amply answered by multiple people. But instead of saying, "Oh, thanks for your input. That satisfies my curiosity," OP has been bent on demonstrating what he believes are the logical fallacies of the answers received. Rather than merely finding out why people feel as they do, he's trying to persuade them that they shouldn't feel that way. Which is all fine and dandy, except that I don't think most posters here thought that's what they were signing up for. OP wants a fun and friendly debate (something he made clear in a later post). I'm OK with that. It's just that after a while, it goes around in circles. As Hillary Clinton famously said (recently, and I paraphrase): You can't change everyone's hearts and minds. Especially if they don't want to be changed.

[BMWM5E34]

What are you looking for? These are very deep philosophical questions. And we're talking about cars here. Most of us have more than 1 so it's not like we're looking for perfection. I think I unsubscribing from this.
My car has gone through many variations over the years. I haven't been happy with everything I do to it. Sometimes I want to sell it. Sometimes I want to drive it. Sometimes I want to change it again to suit my mood. Sometimes I feel like I should have sold it years ago or gotten something else. Nothing is perfect or ideal here. It fun to do and I don't judge other people based on what I did. Sometimes I get inspired to do something someone else did. And sometimes when I'm stuck in traffic with a race clutch I wish I had an auto. But then I remember I have 400+ft lbs of torque and I can leave the car in one gear and it will be fine (I don't shift out of 4th gear on most tracks because it is easier). Sometimes I think my car would be better on the track with a flappy paddle gearbox. Or maybe I need an e46 because a large sedan is a stupid starting point for a race car.
It was my first car 17 years ago and instead of building a car from the ground up I modified this one. I'm an engineer and I didn't get a job in automotive design so I made it my hobby. There is no single element that is essence of E34 goodness.

Well, I don't think they're that philosophical. My point is that when someone introduces his new all stock automatic E34 maybe he shouldn't receive so many negative comments about the car.
After all, he has purchased what BMW intended to be purchased 20 years ago and what the majority of customers did.
Not many of them decided to put racing clutches (ceramic?), racing bucket seats or racing stiff suspensions.
This of course adds to the variety of E34 users, but it should be just the exception to the rule, which is fine, not the only good path to follow.

From your experience maybe a flappy paddle gearbox with straight toothed gears is the best thing to do, but bear in mind that your understanding of the E34 is very different from the average person's.
That's why I asked this sort of philosophical question: What's the E34? ¿Is it the old 1980s luxury sedan that once was loved and admired by many (some suggest this concept deserves nothing more than crushing) or is it just a start point to build a new and different car which doesn't behave in any way like the original car (seems like heavily modifying the car is the trend here)?


Begining to think op is a troll...

The guy has some different opinions, so he must be troll. Yeah, that makes sense.http://www.roto2.com/roto2.gif


Perhaps, but at least it's not the old M5 versus...well, you know. It's a new and different sort of pointless argument disguised as a question. The original question was about why some people so dislike automatics. That question has been amply answered by multiple people. But instead of saying, "Oh, thanks for your input. That satisfies my curiosity," OP has been bent on demonstrating what he believes are the logical fallacies of the answers received. Rather than merely finding out why people feel as they do, he's trying to persuade them that they shouldn't feel that way. Which is all fine and dandy, except that I don't think most posters here thought that's what they were signing up for. OP wants a fun and friendly debate (something he made clear in a later post). I'm OK with that. It's just that after a while, it goes around in circles. As Hillary Clinton famously said (recently, and I paraphrase): You can't change everyone's hearts and minds. Especially if they don't want to be changed.

I'm glad you understand it. There's nothing wrong with having a little friendly argument.

[E39540V8]

Can I have one of each please :)

[E34prease]

Begining to think op is a troll...
X2

[Binjammin]

What are you looking for? These are very deep philosophical questions. And we're talking about cars here. Most of us have more than 1 so it's not like we're looking for perfection. I think I unsubscribing from this.
My car has gone through many variations over the years. I haven't been happy with everything I do to it. Sometimes I want to sell it. Sometimes I want to drive it. Sometimes I want to change it again to suit my mood. Sometimes I feel like I should have sold it years ago or gotten something else. Nothing is perfect or ideal here. It fun to do and I don't judge other people based on what I did. Sometimes I get inspired to do something someone else did. And sometimes when I'm stuck in traffic with a race clutch I wish I had an auto. But then I remember I have 400+ft lbs of torque and I can leave the car in one gear and it will be fine (I don't shift out of 4th gear on most tracks because it is easier). Sometimes I think my car would be better on the track with a flappy paddle gearbox. Or maybe I need an e46 because a large sedan is a stupid starting point for a race car.
It was my first car 17 years ago and instead of building a car from the ground up I modified this one. I'm an engineer and I didn't get a job in automotive design so I made it my hobby. There is no single element that is essence of E34 goodness.

Let's not forget the black car or the wagon. Wagon swapped to manual, black car was manual from birth. Just because you have the red car doesn't mean you haven't had other, mostly stock e34s around. OP focusing on the race car is a little disingenuous, saying that because you have a modified e34 your opinion is invalid. I'd say you have more weight to your opinion than most, seeing that you've been in the game a lot longer than most people around here. Having modified ONE e34 as far as you have, while having had more that didn't go that far... :dunno

[Jackson42]

You asked for an opinion and I'm gonna give you several.

1. It is not hate. It is a strong preference for cars with manual transmissions.
2. BMW advertises its cars as "the ultimate driving machines." I contend in the last few years that has become less and less true because of all of the gimmicks and gizmos BMW has invented and thrust between us and the road. Witness the execrable clutch delay valve in the newer manual cars that is nothing but an admission that their manual gearboxes aren't as quick as their owners.
3. To be the ultimate driving machine, the car must give the driver the ultimate in control. I have to draw the line between purely automatic transmissions and modern automatics that have readily-accessible manual modes, as cars of E34 vintage typically do not. I travel a LOT, and that means I drive a lot of different cars with automatic transmissions. Some are good and some are bad. Dodge HemiCharger = good (well, pretty good - the way it controls engine revs in upshifts is not consistent and can become annoying); Ford Focus = bad, way, way bad, and not because of the class of car. In a Focus, you'll wonder if you've been rear-ended from time to time because of a 1-2 upshift crash when rolling slowly in heavy traffic. When I'm commuting in some distant location, I'm not interested in the ultimate driving experience; I'm just trying to get the job done, and an automatic gives me one less thing to think about when I'm dodging stupid driving in an unfamiliar place (anybody on this thread from Miami? I pity you!) Recently I had a new Camry ("bold, new Camry"? New, yes; bold, heck no!) and the darn thing had paddle shifters! Okay, that comes close to giving you the level of control you need.
4. Reliability. Think about all those tiny little parts and all those expensive electronics and all those little clutches whirring away in there. How long will it be before they go away on you? And how expensive will it be when that happens?
5. We have four BMWs in the family, the newest and only one with an automatic being an M-sport 318ti. It's a tight little car with excellent suspension, great steering and big brakes. The M44 in the ti is a rev-happy little motor, but it is totally overwhelmed by the crappy decisions made by the transmission, and putting the trans in manual mode is just an invitation to fight with it to get it to be in the gear I want it to be in when I want it to be there. I think the car would probably be a blast to drive with a manual gearbox but I'll never know. Sad. I don't like driving the car, and only because of the transmission.
6. I've spent the last several weeks on the road, with a number of different rental cars. Last night my wife picked me up at the airport in the M5. Before we were even out of the parking lot, I was ripping off perfect heel-and-toe downshifts without even thinking about it. I was immediately as one with the car. I knew I was home.

So this really cannot be a debate, as it is about personal preference. There is no right or wrong answer. It's almost like religion, or motor oil, or football. Go (put the name of your favorite team here)!

But I'd at least like the opportunity to make the choice myself without having someone else make it for me.

[mboor]

^ this post sums it up for me. I used to travel cross country for a previous job, and can relate to everything this guy said. About driving all different types of cars and transmissions, how some a better than others, especially the part about getting home from the air port and the satisfaction of a perfect heel/toe downshift letting you know your home. People that prefer automatics will never understand this.

[0reo535i]

having both auto and manual m60s, i like them both. I work construction and after some long days, i dont feel like driving a stiff clutched 6 speed, just feel like floating home in the auto 7. the 540i is for my sporty, spirited driving when i feel like throwing the ass end out in second gear from time to time. they both serve their purposes well.

the autos ive experienced in the m50 cars...eh... ill pass. but the one in my m70 and m60 cars i loved.

[wilourosen]

The V8 and V12 are both well suited for cruising. This is what they were tuned for.
You have more cylinders working so therefore the drive feels effortless. You accelerate in any gear at any rpm and the engine still pulls without any stress to it.
Its like each cylinder is helping the other.
An automatic transmission fits right in there and feel at home. The drive is simply beautiful.

[Redfive]

Not sure how my car doesn't look or drive like an E34. All the body panels are stock. All the parts were made for the car. Whether they came from BMW, M, Alpina, Hartge, Dinan etc. It all part of the BMW legacy. When I sit in it, it still smells the same. Same door closing thunk. Same unique handling characteristics of the trailing arm suspension. Oh and I have to still deal with the feel of the m30. The only difference is that some of these sensations have been turned way up. But there is no drastic departure from what it was originally.
Plus as Bin pointed out. I've owned several other e34s. In addition to other models from BMW. There is a characteristic feel of these cars. Some thing that is clearly not there in an Audi for example. You'd be a fool to mess with that.
So I think I can speak for E34s. I've sampled a lot so I can offer my opinion too. I've driven pretty much everything BMW has made in the last 2 decades at some point. A lot of those are autos too and I didn't mind them. I'm just of the strong opinion that the ones available in the E34 are terrible. As is the one in my parents 1995 Camry.

[Redfive]

BTW I've had mine for 17years. How long have you had yours? There is only one other person on here with that level of legacy. He has me beat by a couple months.
17 years ago the forums were full of original owners. So I know what they valued. I've talked to them. Hell the guy who got me to go to the track the first time was a driving instructor with a 535iA and that car could hustle.

[0reo535i]

I cant say that as im only 20, but im the 3rd owner of my e34 and either 3rd or 4th on my e32 740i.

[BMWM5E34]

Can I have one of each please :)
Best decision.

You asked for an opinion and I'm gonna give you several.

1. It is not hate. It is a strong preference for cars with manual transmissions.
2. BMW advertises its cars as "the ultimate driving machines." I contend in the last few years that has become less and less true because of all of the gimmicks and gizmos BMW has invented and thrust between us and the road. Witness the execrable clutch delay valve in the newer manual cars that is nothing but an admission that their manual gearboxes aren't as quick as their owners.
3. To be the ultimate driving machine, the car must give the driver the ultimate in control. I have to draw the line between purely automatic transmissions and modern automatics that have readily-accessible manual modes, as cars of E34 vintage typically do not. I travel a LOT, and that means I drive a lot of different cars with automatic transmissions. Some are good and some are bad. Dodge HemiCharger = good (well, pretty good - the way it controls engine revs in upshifts is not consistent and can become annoying); Ford Focus = bad, way, way bad, and not because of the class of car. In a Focus, you'll wonder if you've been rear-ended from time to time because of a 1-2 upshift crash when rolling slowly in heavy traffic. When I'm commuting in some distant location, I'm not interested in the ultimate driving experience; I'm just trying to get the job done, and an automatic gives me one less thing to think about when I'm dodging stupid driving in an unfamiliar place (anybody on this thread from Miami? I pity you!) Recently I had a new Camry ("bold, new Camry"? New, yes; bold, heck no!) and the darn thing had paddle shifters! Okay, that comes close to giving you the level of control you need.
4. Reliability. Think about all those tiny little parts and all those expensive electronics and all those little clutches whirring away in there. How long will it be before they go away on you? And how expensive will it be when that happens?
5. We have four BMWs in the family, the newest and only one with an automatic being an M-sport 318ti. It's a tight little car with excellent suspension, great steering and big brakes. The M44 in the ti is a rev-happy little motor, but it is totally overwhelmed by the crappy decisions made by the transmission, and putting the trans in manual mode is just an invitation to fight with it to get it to be in the gear I want it to be in when I want it to be there. I think the car would probably be a blast to drive with a manual gearbox but I'll never know. Sad. I don't like driving the car, and only because of the transmission.
6. I've spent the last several weeks on the road, with a number of different rental cars. Last night my wife picked me up at the airport in the M5. Before we were even out of the parking lot, I was ripping off perfect heel-and-toe downshifts without even thinking about it. I was immediately as one with the car. I knew I was home.

So this really cannot be a debate, as it is about personal preference. There is no right or wrong answer. It's almost like religion, or motor oil, or football. Go (put the name of your favorite team here)!

But I'd at least like the opportunity to make the choice myself without having someone else make it for me.

1. Then it's completely fine.
2. That slogan can be very subjective, but I get you.
3. Yes and no. I see your point, but BMW doesn't build hardcore machines only. In fact, they only build a few of those.
In a 5 Series and 7 Series you want comfort. I see people complaining about the E34's steering for not being as communicative as they wished. For me that doesn't make much sense, it's like complaining about a Lotus Elise for not having big electric leather seats, power steering, power windows, Connolly leather, etc.
That's missing the point and the true purpose of the car!

In a comfort oriented vehicle you want the steering to be connected to the road, but not so much because it makes the driving less comfortable; you may want an automatic transmission to add comfort; leather seats; sunshades; wood trim to give the interior a warmer feel; etc.
The E34 retains that enthusiastic driving experience, but it's in essence an executive sedan.
Even the more radical versions such as the M5 or the Alpinas retain that refined gentleman's drive.

This same story happens with the E31 8 Series. A lot of people look at its low sleek design and think it's a sports car, then they go on the hunt after a used one and realise rather disappointingly that 95% of them are automatic!
This comes from a misunderstanding of the car's essence. It is a two ton GT, not a sports car, and that's why the majority of buyers chose the automatic.

Anyway, tell me what the automatic transmission in the E34 doesn't allow you to do. You're in full control of the vehicle at anytime through the different driving modes. Yes, the manual gives you that bit of extra control, but this is especially noticeable in a sports car.

4. I give you that, but if we cared so much about reliability we would be all driving around in mechanically simple econoboxes from Toyota or Dacia.

5. The M44 doesn't go that well with the automatic. In fact, I think all 318is in Europe were manual.
As mentioned before by other users, some transmissions suit some engines and others don't.
When it comes to the 540i I think it works well with both, maybe the 525i wouln't feel right as an auto as the engine is so peaky.

6. Oh boy, the M5 is just another story! :evil2

You are right, it's about personal preferences.


having both auto and manual m60s, i like them both. I work construction and after some long days, i dont feel like driving a stiff clutched 6 speed, just feel like floating home in the auto 7. the 540i is for my sporty, spirited driving when i feel like throwing the ass end out in second gear from time to time. they both serve their purposes well.

the autos ive experienced in the m50 cars...eh... ill pass. but the one in my m70 and m60 cars i loved.
They're both enjoyable, but yes, in different contexts as you said.

The V8 and V12 are both well suited for cruising. This is what they were tuned for.
You have more cylinders working so therefore the drive feels effortless. You accelerate in any gear at any rpm and the engine still pulls without any stress to it.
Its like each cylinder is helping the other.
An automatic transmission fits right in there and feel at home. The drive is simply beautiful.

I couldn't agree more, sir.

Big engine with multiple cylinders and generous displacement + torque converter = perfection. :luvlove

I always thought the Americans got this formula so well applied to their cars, being part of their automotive culture.
That's why I was a bit shocked when I realised just how many people in this section seem to hate this idea!! Couldn't believe it...:eek:

Not sure how my car doesn't look or drive like an E34. All the body panels are stock. All the parts were made for the car. Whether they came from BMW, M, Alpina, Hartge, Dinan etc. It all part of the BMW legacy. When I sit in it, it still smells the same. Same door closing thunk. Same unique handling characteristics of the trailing arm suspension. Oh and I have to still deal with the feel of the m30. The only difference is that some of these sensations have been turned way up. But there is no drastic departure from what it was originally.
Plus as Bin pointed out. I've owned several other e34s. In addition to other models from BMW. There is a characteristic feel of these cars. Some thing that is clearly not there in an Audi for example. You'd be a fool to mess with that.
So I think I can speak for E34s. I've sampled a lot so I can offer my opinion too. I've driven pretty much everything BMW has made in the last 2 decades at some point. A lot of those are autos too and I didn't mind them. I'm just of the strong opinion that the ones available in the E34 are terrible. As is the one in my parents 1995 Camry.

I woun't say your E34 isn't a drastic departure from the original concept. I'm not saying this in a bad way, don't get me wrong.

Sure, Audis have their engines hanging over the front headlights. :rofl

I've also driven several cars in my very short experience compared to yours and I wouldn't say the automatic in the E34 is bad. Not at all.
I've tested ZF8, 7G Tronic and such, of course they're at another level, but still the ZF 5HP30 feels great!!

BTW I've had mine for 17years. How long have you had yours? There is only one other person on here with that level of legacy. He has me beat by a couple months.
17 years ago the forums were full of original owners. So I know what they valued. I've talked to them. Hell the guy who got me to go to the track the first time was a driving instructor with a 535iA and that car could hustle.

You got me there.:D
I had a previous 525i manual and then this 540iA for about three years now. But then, I only have my driving license for five. :rofl

I wasn't doubting of your experience, just put as an example your car for not being stock.

I cant say that as im only 20, but im the 3rd owner of my e34 and either 3rd or 4th on my e32 740i.

Almost the same here. lol

[Jackson42]

BTW I've had mine for 17years. How long have you had yours? There is only one other person on here with that level of legacy. He has me beat by a couple months.
17 years ago the forums were full of original owners. So I know what they valued. I've talked to them. Hell the guy who got me to go to the track the first time was a driving instructor with a 535iA and that car could hustle.

Well, I bought my E30 in 1986, and it was my second BMW, after an E12. I've owned BMWs for 34 years now. I bought the M5 in 2001. The others have come within the last five years or so.

And as far as hustling, I had a guy in a late-model M3 hustle past me in the 535i (manual) heading into a set of my favorite twisties recently, and I dropped in behind him and worried him pretty good before we came out the other end. The 535i and the M5 are about as different as two cars built on the same platform could be, but both are very satisfying in their unique ways. The torque of the M30 is huge, and I can understand that, mated to the right automatic, it could be a lot of fun. But I still prefer the manual.

- - - Updated - - -

"There's no replacement for displacement?" Then why do the 2002s and the E30s keep blowing the doors off other much more powerful machinery in spec racing? And why do 289 Cobras still regularly finish with or ahead of the 427 cars? And why is there Lotus? I highly recommend you go drive an Exige. If it doesn't make you grin from ear to ear, your lips are stitched shut.

I know, I know, I apologize. I'm really not trying to incite a riot here!

[E28E34]

Anyway, tell me what the automatic transmission in the E34 doesn't allow you to do. You're in full control of the vehicle at anytime through the different driving modes.

maybe the 525i wouldn't feel right as an auto as the engine is so peaky.

I had a previous 525i manual and then this 540iA for about three years now.

The automatics BMW offered in this time period were actually quite advanced for their time - starting as far back as 1986. You can select "Manual" mode - which will hold the gear in 1, 2 or 3. Or leave it in normal/economy mode - where shifts are more for comfort and economy. Or drop it in 3 which selects Sport mode, so long as "M" is not selected. Sport mode allows for later shifts. I've tracked my 525i auto 4 times, and used Sport mode. I did very well, and stuck with older M cars in the turns just fine. I've done Ice Racing 3 times with it, and usually left it in 2M or 3M, which allows 2nd or 3rd gear starts for less wheel-spin. With 144K mi. it still is doing fine - and it's the original box. ATF changed every 25-40K mi. Just had the ATF changed with Redline D4 for the 1st time. I can't think of any other auto transmission of the 1986-1995 era that allows as much flexibility as BMW did. Mercedes transmissions were criticized for starting off in 2nd - and this was the case for many years. I think some credit and respect is due for BMW engineers automatics for the period.

[BMWM5E34]

In stock form the big muscular V8s are much faster. Not that muscle cars handle very well to be honest, but they're fast as hell for the time; not a single 2002 or E30 can keep up with them.

Cause they're lighter?


You didn't understand my previous post. I respect the Elise's or Exige's concept.
I stated that complaining about a Lotus not being well equiped is pointless because the car is meant to be light, simple and effective as no other car taking fast corners.

I test drove an Opel Speedster once, which is basically like an Elise tuned by Lotus and everything. Great fun!

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The automatics BMW offered in this time period were actually quite advanced for their time - starting as far back as 1986. You can select "Manual" mode - which will hold the gear in 1, 2 or 3. Or leave it in normal/economy mode - where shifts are more for comfort and economy. Or drop it in 3 which selects Sport mode, so long as "M" is not selected. Sport mode allows for later shifts. I've tracked my 525i auto 4 times, and used Sport mode. I did very well, and stuck with older M cars in the turns just fine. I've done Ice Racing 3 times with it, and usually left it in 2M or 3M, which allows 2nd or 3rd gear starts for less wheel-spin. With 144K mi. it still is doing fine - and it's the original box. ATF changed every 25-40K mi. Just had the ATF changed with Redline D4 for the 1st time. I can't think of any other auto transmission of the 1986-1995 era that allows as much flexibility as BMW did. Mercedes transmissions were criticized for starting off in 2nd - and this was the case for many years. I think some credit and respect is due for BMW engineers automatics for the period.

Exactly. How many automatics from the 80s had sports mode? BMW, Porsche and not many more I believe.

For some reason BMW liked to change everything for the US-spec and the modes have different names, but it's basically the same: You can hold the gear you want and select them as in a manual car, select sports mode to keep the revs high or simply put it in Drive and relax.

Very flexible indeed, I think most people don't even bother to learn how all the different modes work so they cannot take out all the good these gearboxes have to offer. :)

That's a bit annoying in the old Mercs since they will only select first if you kick down them.
My 750i normally starts in 2nd gear too, but you can always select S or 1 to start in first.

[E28E34]

Exactly. How many automatics from the 80s had sports mode? BMW, Porsche and not many more I believe.

Very flexible indeed, I think most people don't even bother to learn how all the different modes work so they cannot take out all the good these gearboxes have to offer. :)


I don't think Porsche offered autos comparable to BMWs in the 80s - the tiptronic wasn't until like`91. I can't think of any other manufacturer off hand.

Well put. Most people don't have a clue what the switch M,S,A/E means or 1,2,3 - depending on the year auto.

[Onizukachan]

The auto isn't slow, it shifts way faster than most drivers do with a manual.

i believe you are mistaken. I don't believe you could be anymore mistaken unless you were looking for the stairway to heaven and wound up on the highway to hell where e34s are concerned.
Even the 8speed in the '14 Grand Cherokee is fractionally slower at shifting in flappy paddle mode than Shifting myself. In auto or sport mode, no contest. E34s autos? No contest either. It's like Nico vs Lewis in Q1... Per shift.
Now if you are talking DSG, etc... Well those aren't automatics.


Sidenote: transmissions are possibly better in the EU, Ex: didn't they have M50 525s with 5 speed autos which weren't programmed to start from every stop in 2nd/middle gear?











Everyone loves his first car.
no way. It was auto, underpowered, unreliable and drove like crap.

[whiskychaser]

You can hold the gear you want and select them as in a manual car

You can select them on the move. But if you are going for a downshift to 3 or 2, you may have to wait until your speed has reduced for the gear to engage. As the purpose of your downshift may not be to slow down but to prepare to 'drive' the car round a bend, this is a bit inconvenient. The auto is clever but it can't see what you can.

As has been said, the difference between manual and auto is one of control. Unless the TC is in lockup, what you are requesting with your right foot isn't what is being delivered at the wheels. Engine braking is less with the auto and resuming power isn't quite as quick either. So steering with the throttle is not reliable.

While the handbook may say you can downshift to 3 or 2 with the lever, I'd suggest this is for occasional use and should not be employed for 'spirited driving'.

You simply have to adopt a slightly different style of driving with an auto. I have yet to meet someone who likes to be told how to drive so this may explain their lack of popularity with enthusiasts

[Onizukachan]

Anyway, tell me what the automatic transmission in the E34 doesn't allow you to do. You're in full control of the vehicle at anytime through the different driving modes. Yes, the manual gives you that bit of extra control, but this is especially noticeable in a sports car.


1: mechanically couple the engine to the driveshaft for maximum durability and power delivery, as well as improved weight transfer during acceleration and deceleration, improved fuel economy

2: choose and mechanically select the gear I decide is correct for the rpm, engine loading etc, as well as in anticipation of what will happen next on the road, rather than sending in a petition to change which will be voted on and usually allowed, though sometimes not, and sometimes allowed then disavowed mere moments later by a collection of chips and valves that has no idea the guy in front of you is an idiot driver, or that there is a decreasing radius corner ahead, or that it is snowing and sleeting and you are on UHP summer tires and you need a gear in between 2nd and 3rd to manually select and stay in so you can manually control tire speed.

3: Replace the the entire transmission by yourself for $200 in a single day with only hand tools.

4: shave over a second, maybe 2 full seconds off the 0-60 time. Important when you are driving a heavy underpowered car up an abbreviated on-ramp and trying to get to 70mph before the economy car behind you rear ends you for driving too slow.

5: accelerate from a stop in first gear with out having to place foot flat on floor 5 ft into the intersection to engage kick-down from 2nd to 1st, and keep your foot pegged there till 20plus to keep from falling off the powerband and turning into a street snail again.

[XCRN]

It is also nice since no one asks to borrow your car since they won't know how to drive it. There is only one person that I both trust with my property and could drive stick and would probably allow since they are family.

[Jackson42]

"In stock form the big muscular V8s are much faster. Not that muscle cars handle very well to be honest, but they're fast as hell for the time; not a single 2002 or E30 can keep up with them.

Cause they're lighter?"

Bingo - we're down to fundamental truth here. Depending on the application sometimes horsepower is all at matters (drag racing) and sometimes it's the horsepower-to-weight ratio (tight road courses). As far as the 2002s and E30s keeping up with the V8s, you need to look closely at the vintage racing classes where you'll see the little guys finishing with or ahead of the big guys. The Historics at Coronado every year are especially fun, as this happens year after year after year. At the SoCal Cobra Club events at Willow Springs, the 289 Cobras typically end up on the podium because the 427 cars are just too heavy to go fast on that circuit - they scream down the straight and then have to tiptoe through the corners. So if terminal speed is all that matters, put your money on displacement. But if handling matters, put your money on low weight. Colin Chapman's mantra at Lotus was, "Add lightness!" On my favorite set of twisties here in SoCal, the only cars that can stay with me in the E30 are small and light. I realize this is off-topic - wasn't the original question something about automatic transmissions?! Sorry about that...

[ross1]

1: mechanically couple the engine to the driveshaft for maximum durability and power delivery, as well as improved weight transfer during acceleration and deceleration, improved fuel economy

2: choose and mechanically select the gear I decide is correct for the rpm, engine loading etc, as well as in anticipation of what will happen next on the road, rather than sending in a petition to change which will be voted on and usually allowed, though sometimes not, and sometimes allowed then disavowed mere moments later by a collection of chips and valves that has no idea the guy in front of you is an idiot driver, or that there is a decreasing radius corner ahead, or that it is snowing and sleeting and you are on UHP summer tires and you need a gear in between 2nd and 3rd to manually select and stay in so you can manually control tire speed.

3: Replace the the entire transmission by yourself for $200 in a single day with only hand tools.

4: shave over a second, maybe 2 full seconds off the 0-60 time. Important when you are driving a heavy underpowered car up an abbreviated on-ramp and trying to get to 70mph before the economy car behind you rear ends you for driving too slow.

5: accelerate from a stop in first gear with out having to place foot flat on floor 5 ft into the intersection to engage kick-down from 2nd to 1st, and keep your foot pegged there till 20plus to keep from falling off the powerband and turning into a street snail again.

Oh, please.
Exaggerate much?

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Reminds me of this guy who kept bringing his auto BMW into the service center because he kept blowing up his transmission. After the third replacement the service manager had to ask the guy what exactly he was doing to the car to have the transmission blow up. The guy said "I nothing wrong. All I did was, when I got on the highway I put it in R for "race" then bang!"

Not sure I buy this story(he never used reverse before?)but did see the aftermath of such an occurrence. A kid neighbor who had just installed a N02 system on his Camaro had been manually shifting the automatic and managed to go from second to reverse at a speed appropriate for a full throttle upshift to high gear. Th e trans dutifully selected reverse and tore the entire bell housing in two. I was able to remove his trans without unbolting(most of) it from the engine.

Oh, one more thought for those who fancy themselves Michael Schumacher because they can row a gearshift; A REAL driver can make damn near ANY car, auto or manual, FWD or rear, hustle, and I mean hustle. This fact was impressed on me during a ride in a rental FWD econo shitbox being piloted by a former twice Euro champion racer. We were running late to a practice session for his vintage race,... he made up the time.

[mboor]

My father has a 1967 lotus élan S3, straight from Colin chapman. It weighs just under 1200lbs without driver. It's not powerful or particularly fast in a straight line, but it's ability to maintain a high rate of speed is mind boggling. It was so competitive on a race track, back in the day is was grouped with big block corvettes, and was still competitive unless it was a big track with long straights. I've driven the car a few times, it's not fast, but blindingly quick. Had to bring it up since someone brought up lotus. It's def not an e34

[E28E34]

Sidenote: transmissions are possibly better in the EU, Ex: didn't they have M50 525s with 5 speed autos which weren't programmed to start from every stop in 2nd/middle gear?

EU? E34 autos don't start in 2nd gear so long as M2 isn't selected. Mercedes-Benz is another story. The M50 525s had 4-speed autos - not 5-speeds - that was only for the V-8 cars.

[BMWM5E34]

i believe you are mistaken. I don't believe you could be anymore mistaken unless you were looking for the stairway to heaven and wound up on the highway to hell where e34s are concerned.
Even the 8speed in the '14 Grand Cherokee is fractionally slower at shifting in flappy paddle mode than Shifting myself. In auto or sport mode, no contest. E34s autos? No contest either. It's like Nico vs Lewis in Q1... Per shift.
Now if you are talking DSG, etc... Well those aren't automatics.


Sidenote: transmissions are possibly better in the EU, Ex: didn't they have M50 525s with 5 speed autos which weren't programmed to start from every stop in 2nd/middle gear?


no way. It was auto, underpowered, unreliable and drove like crap.

A Grand Cherokee doesn't need to shift in milliseconds. It wouldn't be any quicker with a manual.

There's a gap between perception and reality. I do believe that even older automatic transmissions shift quicker than the average driver, even when he's driving fast.

DSG transmissions don't do it for me. They seem to have the worst of both worlds.

I'm not sure. The driving modes have different names (there's no winter mode in the US ones), but you can always select to start in first, second or third gear (not sure if all allow you to start in 3rd, maybe just the ones with powerful engines).
Does the 525iA start always in 2nd? The 540iA starts in first unless it's in *Winter mode.


You can select them on the move. But if you are going for a downshift to 3 or 2, you may have to wait until your speed has reduced for the gear to engage. As the purpose of your downshift may not be to slow down but to prepare to 'drive' the car round a bend, this is a bit inconvenient. The auto is clever but it can't see what you can.

As has been said, the difference between manual and auto is one of control. Unless the TC is in lockup, what you are requesting with your right foot isn't what is being delivered at the wheels. Engine braking is less with the auto and resuming power isn't quite as quick either. So steering with the throttle is not reliable.

While the handbook may say you can downshift to 3 or 2 with the lever, I'd suggest this is for occasional use and should not be employed for 'spirited driving'.

You simply have to adopt a slightly different style of driving with an auto. I have yet to meet someone who likes to be told how to drive so this may explain their lack of popularity with enthusiasts

As you would have to do in a manual car if you don't want to over-rev the engine.
One gear downshifts (4th to 3rd for example) are very quick.
Automatics normally shift into the highest gear, but bear in mind that going from 5th to 3rd in a manual isn't an instantaneous maneouver either.

Anyway, I have to agree, manuals are better suited for spirited driving.

1: mechanically couple the engine to the driveshaft for maximum durability and power delivery, as well as improved weight transfer during acceleration and deceleration, improved fuel economy

2: choose and mechanically select the gear I decide is correct for the rpm, engine loading etc, as well as in anticipation of what will happen next on the road, rather than sending in a petition to change which will be voted on and usually allowed, though sometimes not, and sometimes allowed then disavowed mere moments later by a collection of chips and valves that has no idea the guy in front of you is an idiot driver, or that there is a decreasing radius corner ahead, or that it is snowing and sleeting and you are on UHP summer tires and you need a gear in between 2nd and 3rd to manually select and stay in so you can manually control tire speed.

3: Replace the the entire transmission by yourself for $200 in a single day with only hand tools.

4: shave over a second, maybe 2 full seconds off the 0-60 time. Important when you are driving a heavy underpowered car up an abbreviated on-ramp and trying to get to 70mph before the economy car behind you rear ends you for driving too slow.

5: accelerate from a stop in first gear with out having to place foot flat on floor 5 ft into the intersection to engage kick-down from 2nd to 1st, and keep your foot pegged there till 20plus to keep from falling off the powerband and turning into a street snail again.

1. Maximum durability? Wrong. Engines coupled to automatic transmissions are less stressed due to the multiplying effect of the torque converter and the fluid drive.
They also allow the engine to operate at lower rpms.
Fuel economy is better around town, but on the highway is the same if not better on the automatic.

2. You can do exactly the same with almost any automatic.
The transmission won't allow you to do anything that puts in danger the integrity of the transmission itself or the engine. This makes perfect sense. Why would you want to select a lower gear that, if selected, would over-rev the engine?

3. Circumstantial.

4. Yeah, c'mon!, maybe even 10 seconds. Why not?

5. Most transmissions allow you to start in 1st. The BMW ones do.



It is also nice since no one asks to borrow your car since they won't know how to drive it. There is only one person that I both trust with my property and could drive stick and would probably allow since they are family.

I've also read that in the US they're less likely to be stolen. Most bad guys don't know how to drive stick. :rofl


"In stock form the big muscular V8s are much faster. Not that muscle cars handle very well to be honest, but they're fast as hell for the time; not a single 2002 or E30 can keep up with them.

Cause they're lighter?"

Bingo - we're down to fundamental truth here. Depending on the application sometimes horsepower is all at matters (drag racing) and sometimes it's the horsepower-to-weight ratio (tight road courses). As far as the 2002s and E30s keeping up with the V8s, you need to look closely at the vintage racing classes where you'll see the little guys finishing with or ahead of the big guys. The Historics at Coronado every year are especially fun, as this happens year after year after year. At the SoCal Cobra Club events at Willow Springs, the 289 Cobras typically end up on the podium because the 427 cars are just too heavy to go fast on that circuit - they scream down the straight and then have to tiptoe through the corners. So if terminal speed is all that matters, put your money on displacement. But if handling matters, put your money on low weight. Colin Chapman's mantra at Lotus was, "Add lightness!" On my favorite set of twisties here in SoCal, the only cars that can stay with me in the E30 are small and light. I realize this is off-topic - wasn't the original question something about automatic transmissions?! Sorry about that...

I like the tiny little British sports cars because of that. You cannot overcome the limits of physics, the more mass, the more inertia and therefore less chances to take corners fast without going off the track.

The circuit can make all the difference, in a very small one with lots of curves most supercars with big V8, V10 or even V12 engines, would struggle to follow an Exige.

I agree. That's why so many people love the E30's handling even 30 years later, its light chassis makes it very effective and enjoyable round tight bends.

[E28E34]

There's a gap between perception and reality. I do believe that even older automatic transmissions shift quicker than the average driver, even when he's driving fast.

I'm not sure. The driving modes have different names (there's no winter mode in the US ones), but you can always select to start in first, second or third gear (not sure if all allow you to start in 3rd, maybe just the ones with powerful engines).

Does the 525iA start always in 2nd? The 540iA starts in first unless it's in *Winter mode.

1. Maximum durability? Wrong. Engines coupled to automatic transmissions are less stressed due to the multiplying effect of the torque converter and the fluid drive.
They also allow the engine to operate at lower rpms.
Fuel economy is better around town, but on the highway is the same if not better on the automatic.


I agree, most autos can shift faster than manuals - depending on how one is manual shifting, and to the degree one is depressing the accelerator and at what speed. Really depends on the drivers and the cars.

The 525i auto starts off in 1st - unless in 2M or 3M. The later US V-8 E32s and E34s had the snowflake/winter mode. It starts off in 2nd, and the shifts delays are maybe a tad earlier than when left in E or A mode.

Yes, the lesser-powered US-spec auto E32s and E34s allow you start in 3rd gear. S1, S2, S3...E1, E2, E3, ED...M1, M2, M3 are the displays in mine.

Interesting. I feel that too. But it depends on how much the manual driver thrashes his car - or the auto driver for that matter - though that's less likely.

The 6th gear in a 540i manual apparently yields in better highway MPG than the 5-spd. auto. And the `93-`95 525i manual gets 28 mpg hwy and 25 mpg with the auto - so unfortunately the autos lose in this case. However, I have got 31 mpg hwy in the 525i auto. On the flip side, the 540i manual gets worse MPG in city than the auto. These are all based on BMW sales brochures figures I own. Now todays BMW autos, with their whopping 8-spds, naturally do better than most of their manual equivalents with 2-less gears.

Let's also give some credit to the engineers at BMW for the 1993-1995 V-8 autos too. They were one of the 1st to sense the angle of the car (hills) and would hold a lower gear going downhill for engine-braking, and same with going up hill for better power. As said before, BMWs autos (for their day) were actually quite good and offered more features and flexibility than most autos that were out in the time. So be respectful guys.

[ross1]

I agree, most autos can shift faster than manuals - depending on how one is manual shifting, and to the degree one is depressing the accelerator and at what speed. Really depends on the drivers and the cars.

The 525i auto starts off in 1st - unless in 2M or 3M. The later US V-8 E32s and E34s had the snowflake/winter mode. It starts off in 2nd, and the shifts delays are maybe a tad earlier than when left in E or A mode.

Yes, the lesser-powered US-spec auto E32s and E34s allow you start in 3rd gear. S1, S2, S3...E1, E2, E3, ED...M1, M2, M3 are the displays in mine.

Interesting. I feel that too. But it depends on how much the manual driver thrashes his car - or the auto driver for that matter - though that's less likely.

The 6th gear in a 540i manual apparently yields in better highway MPG than the 5-spd. auto. And the `93-`95 525i manual gets 28 mpg hwy and 25 mpg with the auto - so unfortunately the autos lose in this case. However, I have got 31 mpg hwy in the 525i auto. On the flip side, the 540i manual gets worse MPG in city than the auto. These are all based on BMW sales brochures figures I own. Now todays BMW autos, with their whopping 8-spds, naturally do better than most of their manual equivalents with 2-less gears.

Let's also give some credit to the engineers at BMW for the 1993-1995 V-8 autos too. They were one of the 1st to sense the angle of the car (hills) and would hold a lower gear going downhill for engine-braking, and same with going up hill for better power. As said before, BMWs autos (for their day) were actually quite good and offered more features and flexibility than most autos that were out in the time. So be respectful guys.

Really? How?

[ShapeShifter]

One thing to note, BMW and Mercedes did not make their transmissions. In the 80's they were made by ZF (automatics) or Getrag (manuals).

IMO, the ZF autos of the day were actually pretty good.

The automatic in the E34 was GM sourced, built in France.

I do not think the E34 has an angle sensor for the transmission.


I have had nothing but BMW or Porsche with exception of one Mercedes since '91.
I have always thought of Porsche as a sports car, Mercedes a luxury car and BMW somewhere in the middle.

[gtopaul]

One thing to note, BMW and Mercedes did not make their transmissions. In the 80's they were made by ZF (automatics) or Getrag (manuals).

The automatic in the E34 was GM sourced, built in France.

The GM automatic in the E34 originated as a 3-speed in the Chevette (which explains a lot). The 4th gear overdrive was added (thus the split case and two oil pans) later on to "modernize" it. It was a pos in the Chevette and not much better when used in the much heavier BMW. Still, I kept one behind my S52 for six years before it needed a rebuild but I don't abuse it either.

[E28E34]

I recall reading in 2 of my sales brochures printed in `93-`95, that the V-8 transmissions (or a sensor elsewhere, that sent a signal to the transmission) sensed the angle of a hill and decided to what extent to hold that gear. I am certain, current ones do this as we have one. If you really want I can dig out the brochures in the boxes in the basement and scan and upload it if you really don't believe me.

Interesting about the GM trans. One of the techs I know, and a few others on this forum tell me the GM unit is better than the ZFs. "GM knows how to make a durable automatic." Afterall, think about all the autos Americans have built over many years... plus they withstand a lot of abuse in cop cars, taxis etc. MY auto ZF in my `84 533i had to be rebuilt at 102K mi., replaced at 159K mi., and replaced again 223K mi. So they aren't all that good. And I can not in anyway agree that the GM unit is worse. Mine is the original unit at 144K mi. It's been Tracked 4 times, and Ice Raced 3 times. Both the ZF in the 533i and GM in the 525i, have had regular fluid flushes every 20-40K mi. on both trannys. Makes you wonder why BMW went with a GM unit. Possibly because they were having so many issues/rebuilds with the ZFs.

[BMWM5E34]

I agree, most autos can shift faster than manuals - depending on how one is manual shifting, and to the degree one is depressing the accelerator and at what speed. Really depends on the drivers and the cars.

The 525i auto starts off in 1st - unless in 2M or 3M. The later US V-8 E32s and E34s had the snowflake/winter mode. It starts off in 2nd, and the shifts delays are maybe a tad earlier than when left in E or A mode.

Yes, the lesser-powered US-spec auto E32s and E34s allow you start in 3rd gear. S1, S2, S3...E1, E2, E3, ED...M1, M2, M3 are the displays in mine.

Interesting. I feel that too. But it depends on how much the manual driver thrashes his car - or the auto driver for that matter - though that's less likely.

The 6th gear in a 540i manual apparently yields in better highway MPG than the 5-spd. auto. And the `93-`95 525i manual gets 28 mpg hwy and 25 mpg with the auto - so unfortunately the autos lose in this case. However, I have got 31 mpg hwy in the 525i auto. On the flip side, the 540i manual gets worse MPG in city than the auto. These are all based on BMW sales brochures figures I own. Now todays BMW autos, with their whopping 8-spds, naturally do better than most of their manual equivalents with 2-less gears.

Let's also give some credit to the engineers at BMW for the 1993-1995 V-8 autos too. They were one of the 1st to sense the angle of the car (hills) and would hold a lower gear going downhill for engine-braking, and same with going up hill for better power. As said before, BMWs autos (for their day) were actually quite good and offered more features and flexibility than most autos that were out in the time. So be respectful guys.

I'd say the 5th in the auto is a bit longer than the 6th in the manual so highway consumption should be pretty close since the torque converter locks at around 60MPH and there are no losses like in a manual.

They were ahead at that time. I remember watching Motorweek test the 740i E32 and they were very impressed by the car and by its all new transmission which apparently was the first 5 speed automatic in North America!


One thing to note, BMW and Mercedes did not make their transmissions. In the 80's they were made by ZF (automatics) or Getrag (manuals).

IMO, the ZF autos of the day were actually pretty good.

The automatic in the E34 was GM sourced, built in France.

I do not think the E34 has an angle sensor for the transmission.


I have had nothing but BMW or Porsche with exception of one Mercedes since '91.
I have always thought of Porsche as a sports car, Mercedes a luxury car and BMW somewhere in the middle.

Mercedes make their own transmissions, BMW don't.
The V8s used ZF ones.
Yes, some had the AGS computer which includes angle sensors.

The GM automatic in the E34 originated as a 3-speed in the Chevette (which explains a lot). The 4th gear overdrive was added (thus the split case and two oil pans) later on to "modernize" it. It was a pos in the Chevette and not much better when used in the much heavier BMW. Still, I kept one behind my S52 for six years before it needed a rebuild but I don't abuse it either.

The first automatic from GM, the Hydramatic, was a 4 speed. Wasn't it? Why did they go backwards building 2 speed and 3 speed transmissions after this?

Anyway, the V8s got ZF transmissions with 5 speeds.

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I recall reading in 2 of my sales brochures printed in `93-`95, that the V-8 transmissions (or a sensor elsewhere, that sent a signal to the transmission) sensed the angle of a hill and decided to what extent to hold that gear. I am certain, current ones do this as we have one. If you really want I can dig out the brochures in the boxes in the basement and scan and upload it if you really don't believe me.

Interesting about the GM trans. One of the techs I know, and a few others on this forum tell me the GM unit is better than the ZFs. "GM knows how to make a durable automatic." Afterall, think about all the autos Americans have built over many years... plus they withstand a lot of abuse in cop cars, taxis etc. MY auto ZF in my `84 533i had to be rebuilt at 102K mi., replaced at 159K mi., and replaced again 223K mi. So they aren't all that good. And I can not in anyway agree that the GM unit is worse. Mine is the original unit at 144K mi. It's been Tracked 4 times, and Ice Raced 3 times. Both the ZF in the 533i and GM in the 525i, have had regular fluid flushes every 20-40K mi. on both trannys. Makes you wonder why BMW went with a GM unit. Possibly because they were having so many issues/rebuilds with the ZFs.

That's absolutely true. The system is called AGS.

GM knows how to build reliable automatics, they invented the automatic we all know after all.
The only problematic one that I know is the one fitted to the 530d E39 because the torque of the motor exceded the transmission's limit.

[gtopaul]

I recall reading in 2 of my sales brochures printed in `93-`95, that the V-8 transmissions (or a sensor elsewhere, that sent a signal to the transmission) sensed the angle of a hill and decided to what extent to hold that gear. I am certain, current ones do this as we have one. If you really want I can dig out the brochures in the boxes in the basement and scan and upload it if you really don't believe me.

Interesting about the GM trans. One of the techs I know, and a few others on this forum tell me the GM unit is better than the ZFs. "GM knows how to make a durable automatic." Afterall, think about all the autos Americans have built over many years... plus they withstand a lot of abuse in cop cars, taxis etc. MY auto ZF in my `84 533i had to be rebuilt at 102K mi., replaced at 159K mi., and replaced again 223K mi. So they aren't all that good. And I can not in anyway agree that the GM unit is worse. Mine is the original unit at 144K mi. It's been Tracked 4 times, and Ice Raced 3 times. Both the ZF in the 533i and GM in the 525i, have had regular fluid flushes every 20-40K mi. on both trannys. Makes you wonder why BMW went with a GM unit. Possibly because they were having so many issues/rebuilds with the ZFs.

My experience has been just the opposite. Never had a problem with a ZF automatic in my E23, E24, or E32. I worked in a BMW service department for 11 years and saw plenty of the GM transmissions getting swapped out. We actually kept them in stock back in the late 1990's. Generally GM transmissions are stout as I've had plenty of TH350's, TH400's, Powerglides, 200R4's, 700R4's, etc etc, with rarely a problem. But, the light weight transmissions in the small cars were always iffy. GM sold the 4L30E to Honda, Isuzu, and a couple of others but they were lightweight applications. BMW had the heaviest cars that used this trans. I also think neglect was also a problem with the transmission since there was no way to quickly check the fluid level without a dip stick so little problems, like leaks, went South quickly. Plus, the transmissions hp and torque ratings won't allow significant increases without decreasing longevity. My S52 torque output is the maximum rating for the 4L30E but I installed it to have a better grocery getter not for stoplight challenges.

[E28E34]

My experience has been just the opposite. Never had a problem with a ZF automatic in my E23, E24, or E32. I worked in a BMW service department for 11 years and saw plenty of the GM transmissions getting swapped out. We actually kept them in stock back in the late 1990's. Generally GM transmissions are stout as I've had plenty of TH350's, TH400's, Powerglides, 200R4's, 700R4's, etc etc, with rarely a problem. But, the light weight transmissions in the small cars were always iffy. GM sold the 4L30E to Honda, Isuzu, and a couple of others but they were lightweight applications. BMW had the heaviest cars that used this trans. I also think neglect was also a problem with the transmission since there was no way to quickly check the fluid level without a dip stick so little problems, like leaks, went South quickly. Plus, the transmissions hp and torque ratings won't allow significant increases without decreasing longevity. My S52 torque output is the maximum rating for the 4L30E but I installed it to have a better grocery getter not for stoplight challenges.

Interesting and scary. I think the torque on the GM is 300 ft-lbs. which is plenty for my stock 525i with 184 lb.-ft. Yours is around 236 in a stock S52 so you should be fine, unless it's been modified.

BMWM5E34: I dug out my `95 brochure. Turns out the autos in the 530i and 540i both got better MPG hwy than the manuals. Though some on this forum can get 32 mpg hwy in 540/6. So that makes sense what you said about the autos.

ATC is the feature BMW called it.

Interesting about motorweek's review - too bad it's not on youtube.

[BMWM5E34]

Interesting and scary. I think the torque on the GM is 300 ft-lbs. which is plenty for my stock 525i with 184 lb.-ft. Yours is around 236 in a stock S52 so you should be fine, unless it's been modified.

BMWM5E34: I dug out my `95 brochure. Turns out the autos in the 530i and 540i both got better MPG hwy than the manuals. Though some on this forum can get 32 mpg hwy in 540/6. So that makes sense what you said about the autos.

ATC is the feature BMW called it.

Interesting about motorweek's review - too bad it's not on youtube.

In my '98 E38's handbook they call it AGS, but I guess it's the same stuff. Too bad my 1992 540i doesn't have this. :(
I feel like a 1995 540iA with ATC, Servotronic, ASC and EDC suspension must drive very well. This would be the ultimate E34 for me.
My E34 isn't that well equiped for a 540i. I hate reading the manual and seeing the bunch of things that I miss. lol


I watched it in Youtube I think. The user Bajabusta uploaded a lot of MW videos, but then they closed his account for copyright violation. :(
Now the guys from MW have their own account and upload some retro reviews, but a lot are missing yet.
I loved when they tested the 850i manual.

- - - Updated - - -

Wow, I can't believe it, ¡¡I found the testdrive!!
Check it out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYBdZKPtcTU

[longwayhome23]

Love the throwback vid. The E32 "sprints from 0-60 in 7.4 seconds, a full two seconds faster than the 735i it replaces." I guess that was really moving back then. Also loved the caveat about the high base price, which is less than today's 335i xdrive sedan. Time marches on.

Gotta wonder why that guy needed to slam the suitcases on the edge of the trunk like he did...

Still, fun to watch the old stuff.

[priler]

ZF has a tendency of putting the amount of torque their transmission can handle in the nomenclature.


the 5HP30 is also called A5S 560Z. the A5S I think stands for automatic 5 speed. the 560 is the amount of Nm.


91-95 525i/iT THM-R1 A4S 310R this is what's known as the GM trans but it got the ZF nomenclature too.

the 535i has the 4HP22,at least 91,92 and possibly a few 93s. I'm not sure what the earlier ones had but it's easy enough to find out. I don't know the torque rating on these.

530i/iT has the 5HP18 aka A5S 310Z.

as you can see the 5HP30,as found in the E34 540iA,was the one that can handle the most amount of torque. it's also interesting that the ones that came next on the E39, the torque ratings on those all went down.

E39 540i and E38 740i/iL,at least from 97 forward got the 5HP24 A5S 440Z. a similar downgrade happened in the engine too,like single row time chain. E39 528i THM R1 A4S 270R. some of these would go up again in TQ rating some years down the road.

[Onizukachan]

A Grand Cherokee doesn't need to shift in milliseconds. It wouldn't be any quicker with a manual.

There's a gap between perception and reality. I do believe that even older automatic transmissions shift quicker than the average driver, even when he's driving fast.

DSG transmissions don't do it for me. They seem to have the worst of both worlds.

I'm not sure. The driving modes have different names (there's no winter mode in the US ones), but you can always select to start in first, second or third gear (not sure if all allow you to start in 3rd, maybe just the ones with powerful engines).
Does the 525iA start always in 2nd? The 540iA starts in first unless it's in *Winter mode.



As you would have to do in a manual car if you don't want to over-rev the engine.
One gear downshifts (4th to 3rd for example) are very quick.
Automatics normally shift into the highest gear, but bear in mind that going from 5th to 3rd in a manual isn't an instantaneous maneouver either.

Anyway, I have to agree, manuals are better suited for spirited driving.


1. Maximum durability? Wrong. Engines coupled to automatic transmissions are less stressed due to the multiplying effect of the torque converter and the fluid drive.
They also allow the engine to operate at lower rpms.
Fuel economy is better around town, but on the highway is the same if not better on the automatic.

2. You can do exactly the same with almost any automatic.
The transmission won't allow you to do anything that puts in danger the integrity of the transmission itself or the engine. This makes perfect sense. Why would you want to select a lower gear that, if selected, would over-rev the engine?

3. Circumstantial.

4. Yeah, c'mon!, maybe even 10 seconds. Why not?

5. Most transmissions allow you to start in 1st. The BMW ones do.




I've also read that in the US they're less likely to be stolen. Most bad guys don't know how to drive stick. :rofl



I like the tiny little British sports cars because of that. You cannot overcome the limits of physics, the more mass, the more inertia and therefore less chances to take corners fast without going off the track.

The circuit can make all the difference, in a very small one with lots of curves most supercars with big V8, V10 or even V12 engines, would struggle to follow an Exige.

I agree. That's why so many people love the E30's handling even 30 years later, its light chassis makes it very effective and enjoyable round tight bends.
have you driven a 525 in auto and in manual back to back?
It's bad, sure you can learn to compensate for it, like stomping the gas a second before you actually need the power to give it time to downshift , but it really is a completely different car once you toss the overly complicated fluid drive and go back to a good mechanically operated, human brain controlled manual. And the manuals can handle more than 310nm and don't go tits up out of the blue and cost thousands to replace.
You can push start a manual equipped car. Can't do that with an auto because the crankshaft isn't connected to the driveshaft mechanically.
I dunno, maybe because 6.5 k on the downshift is perfectly fine,but the auto won't do it? How about selecting top gear, can't do it in an auto.

Yes the the manuals are more durable than the autos. That's why the autos are always dying and manuals flat out don't unless they get physically damaged or someone forgets to refill after draining the atf.

And once you you are rolling even a little GM 4le autos won't go back to first without kick down, even if you are doing 3 mph. It sucks. They suck.
manuals of this vintage walk all over the autos in performance economy reliability service cost and yes, even luxury.
If you can't personally shift 2x faster and also 2x smoother than some off the shelf late 80s tech el cheapo automatic , you really need to go back to driving school.
There's absolutely no comparison, and anyone who has driven a swap or even the same make model in both trim back to back can affirm that to be the case.

But it if you want to roll the dice and try and beat the house odds, go ahead, More power to you. If all you can find is an auto, understandable. if you are disabled, missing an arm or a leg, an automatic is better than a bus pass. If you buy an auto instead of a manual, silent judgements about competency or character should be expected.

:)

[E28E34]

In my '98 E38's handbook they call it AGS, but I guess it's the same stuff. Too bad my 1992 540i doesn't have this. :(
I feel like a 1995 540iA with ATC, Servotronic, ASC and EDC suspension must drive very well. This would be the ultimate E34 for me.
My E34 isn't that well equiped for a 540i. I hate reading the manual and seeing the bunch of things that I miss. lol


I watched it in Youtube I think. The user Bajabusta uploaded a lot of MW videos, but then they closed his account for copyright violation. :(
Now the guys from MW have their own account and upload some retro reviews, but a lot are missing yet.
I loved when they tested the 850i manual.

- - - Updated - - -

Wow, I can't believe it, ¡¡I found the testdrive!!
Check it out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYBdZKPtcTU
Strange your 540i doesn't have it. It should have the same trans. and ATC - like all US V-8 cars. `92?! Really? `93 I could see for Europe. But `92?

US E34s never got EDC - so don't feel too bad. ASC was most common on `95 models and some `94s.

Nice, I'll have to check it out. Thanks! Love vintage footage.

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ZF has a tendency of putting the amount of torque their transmission can handle in the nomenclature.


the 5HP30 is also called A5S 560Z. the A5S I think stands for automatic 5 speed. the 560 is the amount of Nm.


91-95 525i/iT THM-R1 A4S 310R this is what's known as the GM trans but it got the ZF nomenclature too.

the 535i has the 4HP22,at least 91,92 and possibly a few 93s. I'm not sure what the earlier ones had but it's easy enough to find out. I don't know the torque rating on these.

530i/iT has the 5HP18 aka A5S 310Z.

as you can see the 5HP30,as found in the E34 540iA,was the one that can handle the most amount of torque. it's also interesting that the ones that came next on the E39, the torque ratings on those all went down.

E39 540i and E38 740i/iL,at least from 97 forward got the 5HP24 A5S 440Z. a similar downgrade happened in the engine too,like single row time chain. E39 528i THM R1 A4S 270R. some of these would go up again in TQ rating some years down the road.
That's really interesting. Thank you for sharing. Nice to hear the much sought after E39 (so it seems) is in some ways inferior compared to the E34. (Get so sick of people drueling over them at shows vs. E34s. Nice cars sure, but it gets old.) So the E39 trannys should be more likely to fail or exhibit problems with lower torque capabilities than our E34s - especially if modded.

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have you driven a 525 in auto and in manual back to back?
It's bad, sure you can learn to compensate for it, like stomping the gas a second before you actually need the power to give it time to downshift , but it really is a completely different car once you toss the overly complicated fluid drive and go back to a good mechanically operated, human brain controlled manual. And the manuals can handle more than 310nm and don't go tits up out of the blue and cost thousands to replace.
You can push start a manual equipped car. Can't do that with an auto because the crankshaft isn't connected to the driveshaft mechanically.
I dunno, maybe because 6.5 k on the downshift is perfectly fine,but the auto won't do it? How about selecting top gear, can't do it in an auto.

Yes the the manuals are more durable than the autos. That's why the autos are always dying and manuals flat out don't unless they get physically damaged or someone forgets to refill after draining the atf.

And once you you are rolling even a little GM 4le autos won't go back to first without kick down, even if you are doing 3 mph. It sucks. They suck.
manuals of this vintage walk all over the autos in performance economy reliability service cost and yes, even luxury.
If you can't personally shift 2x faster and also 2x smoother than some off the shelf late 80s tech el cheapo automatic , you really need to go back to driving school.
There's absolutely no comparison, and anyone who has driven a swap or even the same make model in both trim back to back can affirm that to be the case.



:)
I test drove a manual E34 525i `93, same year as mine - and I liked it. It was fun. Years, later I got my 525i auto. Coming from a auto 533i - it was fine. It's a more relaxed feel for sure as the OP put it so nicely. Would like a manual maybe 1/3 of the time - but most the time, I really don't care. Yes, the manual 525i was more fun. But in traffic, it wasn't. One day, maybe, I'll have a manual. Most people I've seen shift can't shift faster than an auto... especially smoothly. You are one of the few. Driven normally, or sedately the auto is just fine. Driven aggressively, yeah, the manual is better. But let's keep in mind, these are vintage cars, from a vintage era - I can't think of other autos I've driven of the era where they were better. MB's included. Autos all kinda feel alike.

[Onizukachan]

The late 80-early 90s MB autos were atrociously soft....
except the grey market imports that mostly shifted out of second at 62mph like you just got rear ended by a freight train.

now the new (to us) e83 is a 5 speed steptronic, and with the 3.0 in front it isn't bad, or at least not as bad as with the 2.5, but since this one isn't going to be mine I didn't get to nix the auto and push for a 6 speed manual.
and to be honest my gf is a lazy (and often distracted) driver, that's why she likes autos.
Me, I'm constantly switching between manual sport and economy mode to get the trans to do what I want it to do.

much easier to just shift for myself.

[BMWM5E34]

Love the throwback vid. The E32 "sprints from 0-60 in 7.4 seconds, a full two seconds faster than the 735i it replaces." I guess that was really moving back then. Also loved the caveat about the high base price, which is less than today's 335i xdrive sedan. Time marches on.

Gotta wonder why that guy needed to slam the suitcases on the edge of the trunk like he did...

Still, fun to watch the old stuff.

Very impressive, it is as fast as the 500SE which has 326hp instead of 286.

Maybe to show that the E32's trunk doesn't open as far down as newer models.
They always complained about this detail back in the day. :D

have you driven a 525 in auto and in manual back to back?
It's bad, sure you can learn to compensate for it, like stomping the gas a second before you actually need the power to give it time to downshift , but it really is a completely different car once you toss the overly complicated fluid drive and go back to a good mechanically operated, human brain controlled manual. And the manuals can handle more than 310nm and don't go tits up out of the blue and cost thousands to replace.
You can push start a manual equipped car. Can't do that with an auto because the crankshaft isn't connected to the driveshaft mechanically.
I dunno, maybe because 6.5 k on the downshift is perfectly fine,but the auto won't do it? How about selecting top gear, can't do it in an auto.

Yes the the manuals are more durable than the autos. That's why the autos are always dying and manuals flat out don't unless they get physically damaged or someone forgets to refill after draining the atf.

And once you you are rolling even a little GM 4le autos won't go back to first without kick down, even if you are doing 3 mph. It sucks. They suck.
manuals of this vintage walk all over the autos in performance economy reliability service cost and yes, even luxury.
If you can't personally shift 2x faster and also 2x smoother than some off the shelf late 80s tech el cheapo automatic , you really need to go back to driving school.
There's absolutely no comparison, and anyone who has driven a swap or even the same make model in both trim back to back can affirm that to be the case.

But it if you want to roll the dice and try and beat the house odds, go ahead, More power to you. If all you can find is an auto, understandable. if you are disabled, missing an arm or a leg, an automatic is better than a bus pass. If you buy an auto instead of a manual, silent judgements about competency or character should be expected.

:)

Nope, just the manual 525i M50.
They can handle the power they're designed to handle. Mercedes-Benz has always used automatic transmissions only for their powerful models, so at least they disagree with your point of view.

Interestingly enough the early GM automatics could be push started. Anyway, in an E34 or E38 if the battery is about to die the car does strange things and nothing works properly.

At 6.500rpm a downshift is perfectly fine to destroy the engine.

Sorry, amigo, but you're talking bollocks! As I mentioned before, I also drive manual cars and I have a little 318i E36 with a 5 speed.
I can drive a manual car without any problem, that's not a big deal. I even do some heel and toe downshifts from time to time and flawless double clutch downshifts for overtaking (similar effect to an automatic's kickdown but working harder).

Smoother than an automatic? Never! You simply cannot beat the silky smoothness of a fluid drive torque converter.
You can make manual changes virtually unnoticeable, but when you accelerate you'll never get the soothness of the fluid drive.
You can shift faster than an old automatic when you're driving enthusiastically, but normally you don't.


No, they shouln't be expected, especially here where we are supposed to be all car guys.
I can expect that kind of bullshit from ignorant guys who don't give a damn about cars, but in an automotive forum it's rather disappointing.
In fact, I've heard this kind of comments about being disabled, a grandpa or a useless person for driving an auto so many times.
Just pure stupidity if you ask me.

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Strange your 540i doesn't have it. It should have the same trans. and ATC - like all US V-8 cars. `92?! Really? `93 I could see for Europe. But `92?

US E34s never got EDC - so don't feel too bad. ASC was most common on `95 models and some `94s.

Nice, I'll have to check it out. Thanks! Love vintage footage.


I'm not sure to be honest. It feels nice and holds low gears when going uphill, but it doesn't feel as agile as the 750i's transmission. The E38 should have a more advanced computer anyway.

Yes, I know it's a bit rare. I always seem to get the early E34 models, my previous 525i M50 was from 1990!
Here you can see all the details of my 540i:



Data for vehicle identification number: WBAHE61030GF01297


Model description:
540I


Market:
Europa


Type:
HE61



E-Code:
E34



Chassis:
Limousine


Steering:
links


Doors:
4


Engine:
M60/2 - 4,00l (210kW)


Drive:
Heckantrieb


Transmission:
automatisch


Body Color:
Diamantschwarz Metallic (181)



Upholstery:
(0406)


Production date:
04.12.1992


Assembled in:
Dingolfing











Code
Sonderausstattung
Optional Equipment


S216A
Servolenkung-Servotronic
HYDRO STEERING-SERVOTRONIC


S438A
Edelholzausführung
Fine wood trim


S534A
Klimaautomatik
Automatic air conditioning


S687A
Radiovorbereitung
Radio preparation


L819A
Länderausführung Spanien
NATIONAL VERSION SPAIN


S856A
Sprachversion spanisch
Language version Spanish







P.S: No problem! Have a look at: http://testdrivejunkie.com/
Type BMW on the search section and you will see more old school reviews from MotorWeek. There's the one from the 850i that I mentioned and even one from an 840i.
I also love this vintage videos!

[mboor]

Granny shifting, not double clutching when he should...

[BMWM5E34]

Granny shifting, not double clutching when he should...

What do you mean?
Double clutching is never actually needed since all the gears are syncromeshed, but it helps smoothing gear changes sometimes.
You can perform heel and toe with or without double clutching.

[corcovado]

What do you mean?
Double clutching is never actually needed since all the gears are syncromeshed, but it helps smoothing gear changes sometimes.
You can perform heel and toe with or without double clutching.

546429

You're taking this thread way too seriously now.

[zubbie]

There is one thing I do like about my E34 auto.....

That subtle squat the rear end does when you put it in drive.. something about it that makes me smile :cool

[BMWM5E34]

546429

You're taking this thread way too seriously now.

Toretto changes gears all the time, looks like he's driving a truck. :rofl

Real men drive Peterbilts with twin shifters:
https://m.youtube.com/?hl=ru&gl=RU#/watch?v=y6bsGDqWssY


There is one thing I do like about my E34 auto.....

That subtle squat the rear end does when you put it in drive.. something about it that makes me smile :cool

I also find that cool. LOL

[E28E34]

There is one thing I do like about my E34 auto.....

That subtle squat the rear end does when you put it in drive.. something about it that makes me smile :cool
Funny! I know what you mean. M-B's do the same. Oh and at one of our meets, a driver of a manual car commented how he liked how auto BMWs did that as a E30 325i conv. auto was parking. Raises engaging reverse, squats in Drive, balances out in N or P.

Yep, I knew it. Clever. Fast and the Furious. But unless you referenced it, not everyone would know. I thought it was odd he said that in the film. Not critical.

[corcovado]

That's kinda why most people reference it tongue-in-cheek, it was just some technical mumbo jumbo they put into the film to "wow" viewers who didn't know what double-clutching is.

[whiskychaser]

Real men drive Peterbilts with twin shifters

Looks like a whole load of messing about. This is a proper manual gearbox:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkC9G53QoPA

[ross1]

Real men drive Peterbilts with twin shifters:
https://m.youtube.com/?hl=ru&gl=RU#/watch?v=y6bsGDqWssY





Phfftt! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mf6AUbjT-s
That's what I call busy^

If feeling racey;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2zwd1iazvU

[janders211]

But is your E34 really an E34? It doesn't drive like one nor look like a standard one anymore.



I mean, some of you are convinced about the E34 being a sports car when it really isn't.



Or are you just trying to convince other people on your illussion, that is: the E34 is a sports car?
¿Is this the only truth, the path to follow for all new believers?
http://www.quickmeme.com/img/78/7861b6e596a51f71d16bdabe9f58d479c3fdf888b05eafb704 c0190a98aec5b4.jpg
Never go Full Automatic Trans.

"Sports Cars?" Cars can be whatever you make of them. I've seen Kia's beat Porsches on the same day Bentleys beat Ferraris on track.

If you like the following- the manual transmission is better than the automatic in the same e34 (Fact):
"Driving" -Specifically;
Power.
Control.
Tracks.

I'll give that automatics can be better for the following (Opinion);
Cruising.
Naps.
Spillable Mochafrappafukachino's.
Passenger-ing.
Road-head.

I enjoyed driving my 540i6 much more than my supercharged 540iA, altough I didn't 'hate' the automatic transmission. It just was a big sad sponge sucking fun, life and the soul out of the universe.

[mboor]

road head. finally a good reason for an auto hahah

[Redfive]

road head. finally a good reason for an auto hahah

Haven't had an issue receiving that while driving a stick.

[atl530i]

I liked the slushboxes in the E34's I had when they worked. With 200k or more on them, they still worked pretty good. In Atlanta traffic, a standard transmission gets old pretty fast

[ross1]

I recall reading in 2 of my sales brochures printed in `93-`95, that the V-8 transmissions (or a sensor elsewhere, that sent a signal to the transmission) sensed the angle of a hill and decided to what extent to hold that gear. I am certain, current ones do this as we have one. If you really want I can dig out the brochures in the boxes in the basement and scan and upload it if you really don't believe me.

Interesting about the GM trans. One of the techs I know, and a few others on this forum tell me the GM unit is better than the ZFs. "GM knows how to make a durable automatic." Afterall, think about all the autos Americans have built over many years... plus they withstand a lot of abuse in cop cars, taxis etc. MY auto ZF in my `84 533i had to be rebuilt at 102K mi., replaced at 159K mi., and replaced again 223K mi. So they aren't all that good. And I can not in anyway agree that the GM unit is worse. Mine is the original unit at 144K mi. It's been Tracked 4 times, and Ice Raced 3 times. Both the ZF in the 533i and GM in the 525i, have had regular fluid flushes every 20-40K mi. on both trannys. Makes you wonder why BMW went with a GM unit. Possibly because they were having so many issues/rebuilds with the ZFs.


I isn't a matter of believing, I've never heard of this. Nothing in the wiring diagrams to indicate a sensor for this purpose. I know they will hold a gear(in sport mode) when you lift the throttle perhaps this is what you mean.
GM does make good auto transmissions. The 4L30E is derived from the TH350 architechture, downsized for less torque applications and has a planetary set scabbed on to achieve it's fourth gear overdrive. (I'd assume that with proper controls this could actually operate as a six speed.)
With meticulous care they will live long. I have one currently at 205k doing fine:paranoid:.
It's been said before but I'll say once more that "lifetime fill" is what kills most of them, ZF or GM. The more complex ZF does have some "issues" however.

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I'd say the 5th in the auto is a bit longer than the 6th in the manual so highway consumption should be pretty close since the torque converter locks at around 60MPH and there are no losses like in a manual.

They were ahead at that time. I remember watching Motorweek test the 740i E32 and they were very impressed by the car and by its all new transmission which apparently was the first 5 speed automatic in North America!



Mercedes make their own transmissions, BMW don't.
The V8s used ZF ones.
Yes, some had the AGS computer which includes angle sensors.


The first automatic from GM, the Hydramatic, was a 4 speed. Wasn't it? Why did they go backwards building 2 speed and 3 speed transmissions after this?

Anyway, the V8s got ZF transmissions with 5 speeds.

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That's absolutely true. The system is called AGS.

GM knows how to build reliable automatics, they invented the automatic we all know after all.
The only problematic one that I know is the one fitted to the 530d E39 because the torque of the motor exceded the transmission's limit.
The Hydramatic was really a two speed two range affair. They were primitive but robust(used behind Cadillac flathead V-8s in light tanks during WWII). Clumsy shifting, extremely heavy and inefficient at transmitting power.
The later 2 speed Powerglide was more sophisticated and reliable, the 3 speed Hyrdromatics were and still are excellent, reliable and robust. No step backwards at all. Given the low end torque of most engines in those days 2 or 3 speeds was adequate.

- - - Updated - - -


Interesting and scary. I think the torque on the GM is 300 ft-lbs. which is plenty for my stock 525i with 184 lb.-ft. Yours is around 236 in a stock S52 so you should be fine, unless it's been modified.

BMWM5E34: I dug out my `95 brochure. Turns out the autos in the 530i and 540i both got better MPG hwy than the manuals. Though some on this forum can get 32 mpg hwy in 540/6. So that makes sense what you said about the autos.

ATC is the feature BMW called it.

Interesting about motorweek's review - too bad it's not on youtube.
This probably due to gearing rather than the automatic.

[whiskychaser]

I isn't a matter of believing, I've never heard of this. Nothing in the wiring diagrams to indicate a sensor for this purpose. I know they will hold a gear(in sport mode) when you lift the throttle perhaps this is what you mean.

Hill recognition is a function of the AGS. (The A is for adaptive transmission control whereas earlier boxes were EGS for electronic) It is just clever software which lives in the TCM. It knows the load, speed, throttle position etc and works out you are going uphill. It increases the shift rpm so you don't get pendulum shifting. Conversely, when it sees you have no load, your foot is off the gas and you are still going at a rate of knots, it concludes you are going downhill. So it will hang onto the current gear. IMHO, it is to prevent loss of the little engine braking available by an unexpected upshift. This is why you could not find any spirit levels, plumb lines or other angle sensors

[priler]

this is my very first,personal automatic (car) and my very first sedan as well. ALL the rest have been manuals and either pure sport cars or coupes. Porsches,Lotus,BMW,Shelby,RX-7 twin turbo and a bunch of others i'd have to think for a minute to remember,including my very first,a used Datsun 260Z. some sucked(like the 2 Triumphs) and some were awesome. that's not counting the motorcycles. ..probably about 20 in all or more.

I understand the mentality here as I used to feel and think the same (at least the sporting and fun part) but with an exception,i never,ever thought about the auto-driver as somehow being less of a man or any of the other silliness that some of you have mentioned here and in other threads. in fact,some of the manliest and toughest guys I have ever known always drove automatics. womanizers,chauvinist and apart from that,even some of the most down-right dangerous guys I have ever known all drove automatics without exceptions. i'm not joking either,that includes,but not limited to,the Italian definition of "tough-guys","wiseguys" and "made-man".

this is the part I don't get here. to me,it shows a personal deficiency to relate how much and what kind of a man you are with manual vs auto.

today,i'm not much boy-racer any more,if I were,i wouldn't have bought an E34 although I did choose a 540iA specifically for it's space and convenience,luxury,good mpg and the amount of money I wanted to spend but also in combination with it's BMW-esk qualities like sportiness,handling,braking, including the type and quality of it's automatic trans,which not only had 1 extra speed compared to the rest of the cars in this time period but also the way it performs/behaves.




so,here's my counterpoint,specifically and only to all of you with this ridiculous mentality. today I prefer to have an auto because I can have my right hand free to place between her inner thighs,caress xxxxxx,her face,etc. any time she's feeling frisky and I also like my right hand totally free so I can draw my weapon with no impediment to driving or control,which also happens to be made in Germany. Walther. (since AKs aren't optimal for this).


those who choose a manual,do so because they like to pretend it's someone else's schlong,which is bigger than their's. they can't even get a real BF. pathetic.


this is totally specious reasoning of course(well,some of it) and i'm just kidding but you can see how EASY it is to do. just drive what you like and stop pretending your somehow better because you prefer one over the other. trust me,it shows a real character flaw and immaturity. just say you prefer it because you like to control the shifting yourself,it's sportier etc.. I promise you,you wouldn't last long calling some of the things I read here to some of the auto-drivers I've known.

[longwayhome23]

^^^ I think you might be taking this a little too seriously. Satch Carlson, editor-in-chief of Roundel (the BMWCCA mag) regularly refers to cars with three pedals as having "man pedals." It's humor. I don't think he's seriously questioning the masculinity of your gangster friends. Ditto the folks here.

Not sure why a civilian would draw a pistol while driving. Seems risky and dangerous. If you're parked when you draw, it doesn't matter what kind of transmission you have.

I think I am reply #170. How much longer do you suppose this thread can go on? I wonder what the record is, the E34 OT thread not included?

[ross1]

^^^ I think you might be taking this a little too seriously. Satch Carlson, editor-in-chief of Roundel (the BMWCCA mag) regularly refers to cars with three pedals as having "man pedals." It's humor. I don't think he's seriously questioning the masculinity of your gangster friends. Ditto the folks here.

Not sure why a civilian would draw a pistol while driving. Seems risky and dangerous. If you're parked when you draw, it doesn't matter what kind of transmission you have.

I think I am reply #170. How much longer do you suppose this thread can go on? I wonder what the record is, the E34 OT thread not included?

I'm surprised it has remained civil this long. Yeah, some are taking this too seriously but I don't think priler is one of them, I agree with most of what he says.
Anyway, my wife can drive a manual just fine, she learned in five minutes. The last time I was "down there" I didn't notice any inappropriate genitalia.
The side conversations are more interesting than the main topic.

[janders211]

I also like my right hand totally free so I can draw my weapon with no impediment to driving or control,which also happens to be made in Germany. Walther. (since AKs aren't optimal for this).
Unrelated...but drivers drawings guns reminds me if this...guy on the bike is a local e36er
http://youtu.be/IFK2iW6Yn9U
http://youtu.be/IFK2iW6Yn9U






those who choose a manual,do so .......because they can't even get a real BF. pathetic..
Manual transmissions...for dudes who can't get real BF's :(

[ross1]

Unrelated...but drivers drawings guns reminds me if this...guy on the bike is a local e36er
http://youtu.be/IFK2iW6Yn9U




Manual transmissions...for dudes who can't get real BF's :(

Linky no good, coming from you I expect something good so please fix.
And yeah, I noticed that too. hopefully a typo

[janders211]

Try it now.

[ross1]

Try it now.

Thanks. Both are a-holes, either way I suspect this is bogus.
I know a guy who similarly faced down a gun(repossessing a car), took it away and killed the aggressor with it. For every bad ass there is a bigger bad ass.

[priler]

my apologies for changing the direction of this thread,it was actually going (at last) in a useful direction. I guess it was a delayed response to some of the comments.

[janders211]

Thanks. Both are a-holes, either way I suspect this is bogus.
I know a guy who similarly faced down a gun(repossessing a car), took it away and killed the aggressor with it. For every bad ass there is a bigger bad ass.
True. It wasn't exactly a mensa meeting.
But, no it wasn't bogus.

[mboor]

i guess now a real man drives an automatic, is a chauvinistic, womanizing, dangerous, gun toting gangster that is too busy playing with his passengers genitals instead of paying attention to the road. right on man...

[priler]

i guess now a real man drives an automatic, is a chauvinistic, womanizing, dangerous, gun toting gangster that is too busy playing with his passengers genitals instead of paying attention to the road. Right on man...


lulz.

[ross1]

True. It wasn't exactly a mensa meeting.
But, no it wasn't bogus.

"gathering"

[525iDrew]

OP is right about cruising, but when driving spiritedly, the auto feels slushy. And the 4 speed autos really show their age.

[XCRN]

All this talk of autos makes me want to have a manual E38.

[Mr Tripp]

Lmao this is why I dont like them. I dont hate I don't hate on people that do I just don't like them
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/30/23fb6c2e9fc6f74c50c8c981a0d9f6d9.jpg

[Binjammin]

All this talk of autos makes me want to have a manual E38.

I've been driving my e38 for about a month or more now, I have to say, I'm very happy with it. Not sure that I'd want to go manual on it, but I imagine it would make for one hell of a car with a stick.

[Jackson42]

I've been driving my e38 for about a month or more now, I have to say, I'm very happy with it. Not sure that I'd want to go manual on it, but I imagine it would make for one hell of a car with a stick.

Same way I feel about my wife's 318ti - it would be a lot of fun with a manual. Thanks for dragging this back from the edge of the precipice.

[E28E34]

I think all this talk and disfavor of automatics jinxed my automatic.

[mboor]

lmao this is why i dont like them. I dont hate i don't hate on people that do i just don't like them
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/30/23fb6c2e9fc6f74c50c8c981a0d9f6d9.jpg

best post in this thread.

[Smoking piston]

Hi I have a 95 525 and took apart the valve body of the transmission. I didn't notice the screws where different lengths when I put it back together now the transmission goes into limp mode. Any help please !!

[Creesic]

Hi I have a 95 525 and took apart the valve body of the transmission. I didn't notice the screws where different lengths when I put it back together now the transmission goes into limp mode. Any help please !!
Okay, this is the wrong thread to be posting in. Thanks for reviving it. :boink
If you have no idea what you're doing anyways, why did you do it in the first place? Why didn't you go to a shop? How are we supposed to help with no thorough explanation and/or photos?

[zubbie]

You need a service manual or transmission shop. You've attempted to fix the most complicated component in your car.

The GM tranny in your car has a bad rep. Search for A4S-310R or 4L30E service manual and try again or admit you are in over your head and take it to an expert.

[mboor]

Lmao this is why I dont like them. I dont hate I don't hate on people that do I just don't like them
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/30/23fb6c2e9fc6f74c50c8c981a0d9f6d9.jpg

quoting again because hilarious.

[paul4223]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.... For a DD, especially if one lives in hilly terrain, and has to deal with a lot of stop and go traffic, the automatic is absolutely fine.It's preferable, actually, unless you're a masochist.

YMMV.

[Creesic]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.... For a DD, especially if one lives in hilly terrain, and has to deal with a lot of stop and go traffic, the automatic is absolutely fine.It's preferable, actually, unless you're a masochist.

YMMV.
Unfortunately it's the slushiest of slushy slushboxes. That's what we (525i owners) ended up with, or at least what I ended up with.

[paul4223]

[QUOTE=TFlops;29248371]Unfortunately it's the slushiest of slushy slushboxes. That's what we (525i owners) ended up with, or at least what I ended up with.[/QUOTE

Mine shifts pretty crisply even after many miles of happy motoring. :)

[chuddism]

[QUOTE=TFlops;29248371]Unfortunately it's the slushiest of slushy slushboxes. That's what we (525i owners) ended up with, or at least what I ended up with.[/QUOTE

Mine shifts pretty crisply even after many miles of happy motoring. :)
It shifts crisply no doubt, mine did as well. But after swapping to manual you see just how much more power the car has. It's a noticeable difference.
Now if you actually want an auto thats fine...

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

[paul4223]

I definitely want the auto. The car is our daily driver. The M Coupe is manual of course as is our other sportscar. I'm doing a partial resto on the E34 Touring and briefly considered going to an M3 engine + 5 speed conversion, but decided, for me and my sitch, it was not money well spent. The stock 525i engine in the Touring is now mostly rebuilt, and with a Mark D chip, is more than fine for the kind of driving I do. Fast? No. Sufficiently peppy? Yes.

Flogging a 525 is not my idea of a good time anyway. :)

So, when I feel the need for an attitude adjustment, I hop into the M. :)

I'm not trying to be a naysayer here, and I completely understand the appeal of manual transmissions. I recently had the opportunity to get into a super-clean E39 Touring w/ 5-speed and, while tempting, I decided for a DD, I did not want to deal with a clutch pedal.



[QUOTE=paul4223;29248827]
It shifts crisply no doubt, mine did as well. But after swapping to manual you see just how much more power the car has. It's a noticeable difference.
Now if you actually want an auto thats fine...

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

[Onizukachan]

Manuals are better for road head. 5th gear is farther forward and more out of the way.

[Kingpin025]

Pretty much true. I worked at a BMW dealership for 14 years and the two things they couldn't sell were wagons and stick shifts. Nobody wanted them. Put them in the loaner fleet and nobody wanted to drive them. Always sold heavily discounted.

Now post a wagon with a manual swap on any BMW forum and you'll get nothing but love for that thing. I prefer to drive a manual, always have once I learned how. I like to feel as connected to the car and the road as possible. For me the best way to do that is with a manual. For about a year I had an E36 M3 auto and just never had the love for that car as I do my others. Quick little car for sure, just not my preference.

I consider myself lucky to currently have both an E34 M5 and an E39 M5. One to was considered the best sedan of its time and the other still widely considered the best sedan of all time. I recently purchased an E34 525i Touring that will soon be under the knife with a 5 SPD swap, I'll have never driven it as an auto. The eventual goal will be a full 540i swap when the right wrecked donor car is found. I just don't feel right about dismantling a straight rust-free 540i...yet anyway. If a manual swap for the Lightning wasn't such a maintenance nightmare it would be swapped too.

[paul4223]

I consider myself lucky to currently have both an E34 M5 and an E39 M5. One to was considered the best sedan of its time and the other still widely considered the best sedan of all time. I recently purchased an E34 525i Touring that will soon be under the knife with a 5 SPD swap, I'll have never driven it as an auto. The eventual goal will be a full 540i swap when the right wrecked donor car is found. I just don't feel right about dismantling a straight rust-free 540i...yet anyway. If a manual swap for the Lightning wasn't such a maintenance nightmare it would be swapped too.

OTOH, If I ever happen to possess (and it would take some serious coinage and magic) the unicorn known as the E34 M5 Touring, I would be more than happy to shift for myself. :) Good luck w/ your recent acquisition.

[Kingpin025]

OTOH, If I ever happen to possess (and it would take some serious coinage and magic) the unicorn known as the E34 M5 Touring, I would be more than happy to shift for myself. :) Good luck w/ your recent acquisition.

Yes that would be a great car to have! Knowing the maintenance required on the current M cars I'm not sure I'd want to pay that premium up front and then maintain it too. I'm in no rush for the 540i swap, I just want to enjoy bringing the wagon back aesthetically, drive it for a while and save for the big swap. Knowing my luck since I have a plan in place in my brain the donor car will pop up this summer and force my hand.

[BMWM5E34]

As I see, the controversy continues. :D

I'd never consider a Z3 with an automatic, in the same way that I don't see the point of a luxury sedan with a manual, unless it's an M5.

The E34 with manual transmission feels great, but I still think the autobox suits the car better IMHO.

[south42]

Autos still suck


andy

[Sam Son]

I get the luxury car thing but the E34 is too small, in my mind, to be a true luxury car. On top of that the autos sap so much performance out of the engine. To me a luxury car has to be able to waft along comfortably whilst obliterating most plebian daily drivers.

Also the biggest thing is the E34 autos are fairly outdated and tired at this point. Modern autos like the ZF 8spd are lightyears better.

[zubbie]

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/51394551.jpg

[Onizukachan]

Lol!

[BleedsBlue]

Modern autos like the ZF 8spd are lightyears better.

This thread is bouncing between (justified) hate and actual discussion, but this^ point is really very true, Sam Son. Having driven an F30 with the 8 speed, I would never pick the manual for that car. It's large, quiet, and fairly numb, and the auto keeps it in the powerband effortlessly. It fulfills a different ownership experience than an E34 does, though.

Meanwhile the 5 speed in the 540i is much better than I expected (I guess it's chipped), but that's not saying much. My left foot and right hand are constantly searching for a purpose, and the instant the trans gives me problems, it's out in favor of three pedals.

[nitrouso]

I have been driving a lot with a modern 525i (F10) with the auto transmission and it made me realize what a dinosaur the auto in my 525i (E34) is. It shifts slowly and there are those times that you get caught between gears. It doesn't have enough gears which really shows when you are going up a hill on the freeway and the car is at 3000-3500 RPMs but can't shift up because it isn't going fast enough. Would never consider a manual conversion though. The traffic in the bay area drives my up a wall as it is. Having one more thing to worry about while driving would send me over the edge. But if I lived somewhere with less traffic or didn't have to use it as a daily driver, then maybe.

[wmrcs]

There is so much hate on them because BMW's are generally owned by "enthusiasts" who are in it for the experience and engagement with the car. It's also generally accepted that the older automatic transmissions were less reliable and more expensive to repair. Yea, maintenance is key, but who would take an auto E34 525i to the track? If you're on this forum and don't live in a city with loads of traffic, you'd choose manual. Don't fool yourself. ~Pre-2006 I'd choose manual every time. :deadhorse:

[Onizukachan]

Exactly, anything ever happens to the fuel tank, fuel pump, engine or trans on the e46, it's getting converted to 3.0 and 6 speed, or s54 and 6speed.

[GazM3]

The only auto I own in the fleet is my e23 735i. It's actually quite enjoyable to drive even though it's hampered with some tall diff gears that see nearly 60mph in first. I have a lower diff gearset to put in which will make it so much better in the stop start traffic. Also I have a contact where we are going to use the m745i (South African) with m88/3 behind the auto. It has altered shift rpms which will hold first gear to 6700 when u hold the throttle flat. It changes about 5300 now which is a pain as with the cam there is plenty left after 5300 (although peak power is about this point).

If if buying a modern sports car I'd think about using a dual clutch trans. Best of both worlds

[Lucky Duck]

My 540i is an auto, there are times id wish it was a 6 speed, but I'm happy with it cause i do more cruising between red lights than smashing. When I'm on the freeway I end up on one gear for a long time.... So I'm ok with the Auto.. My Audi is a manual, so I guess I'm ok with the auto E34 due to owning both transmissions at the same time.

On a second note though, I had a luxury car that was a manual and boy that was a fun car it was 2001 Lincoln LSE V6 5 speed manual, that thing was so comfy but it handled amazing..and Im saying this coming from owning an Audi with sport suspension and my E34 with Eibach and bilstein set up... This lincoln was a beast in the corners. I wish I could have that car again, Id trade anything for it.



574336

[BMWM5E34]

There is so much hate on them because BMW's are generally owned by "enthusiasts" who are in it for the experience and engagement with the car. It's also generally accepted that the older automatic transmissions were less reliable and more expensive to repair. Yea, maintenance is key, but who would take an auto E34 525i to the track? If you're on this forum and don't live in a city with loads of traffic, you'd choose manual. Don't fool yourself. ~Pre-2006 I'd choose manual every time. :deadhorse:

I love manual BMWs. The way the clutch and the gear lever feel is perfect. Driving an average car with manual transmission is not engaging at all. They just don't feel right.

But I have to say, I love the auoboxes as well. I enjoy very much driving my automatic Bimmers. I have a 318i E36 manual, underpowered but fun.



The only auto I own in the fleet is my e23 735i. It's actually quite enjoyable to drive even though it's hampered with some tall diff gears that see nearly 60mph in first. I have a lower diff gearset to put in which will make it so much better in the stop start traffic. Also I have a contact where we are going to use the m745i (South African) with m88/3 behind the auto. It has altered shift rpms which will hold first gear to 6700 when u hold the throttle flat. It changes about 5300 now which is a pain as with the cam there is plenty left after 5300 (although peak power is about this point).

If if buying a modern sports car I'd think about using a dual clutch trans. Best of both worlds


I love the tall gearing of the automatic BMWs. Cruising at 160km/h (100MPH) with the engine turning below 3,000rpm is pretty cool. Of course it makes the acceleration slower, but with the 540i's 5 speed you don't really notice it. With the 4 speed transmissions it's worse.
That sounds very nice indeed.

The Mercedes of that era have shorter gears and start in second, which I don't like that much. That's the only thing that pushes me back from buying a 600 SEL W140.

[Russellc]

My problem with auto transmission is simple. They always eventually need to be repaired or rebuilt. of course, all my cars have automatics. :)

[LannVouivre]

As I see, the controversy continues. :D

I'd never consider a Z3 with an automatic,
I had to get an auto because I'm super-short and can't depress the clutch sufficiently :( Someone told me I can just get a pedal extender, but they all look very cobbled-together except for the special ones for certain mustangs.

Oh well, at least I've worked on a 4L60E before, 4L30E should be pretty similar. I still have an old 5-speed Tercel I can always putter around in, that's pretty fun to drive. The 4L60E did have an issue with the reaction sun shell snapping off if you tow too aggressively, hope these don't have that issue.

[Onizukachan]

My problem with auto transmission is simple. They always eventually need to be repaired or rebuilt. of course, all my cars have automatics. :)
Yep. My e46 is currently getting the auto repaired. So much easier with a manual. It breaks you swap in another good used one for a few hundred, and they do t break unless you break them.. Autotragics, well they are going to wear out by design, so you take them to the shop and hope they are repairable instead of having to buy a rebuilt one for a stack of cash.

[ross1]

I had to get an auto because I'm super-short and can't depress the clutch sufficiently :( Someone told me I can just get a pedal extender, but they all look very cobbled-together except for the special ones for certain mustangs.

Oh well, at least I've worked on a 4L60E before, 4L30E should be pretty similar. I still have an old 5-speed Tercel I can always putter around in, that's pretty fun to drive. The 4L60E did have an issue with the reaction sun shell snapping off if you tow too aggressively, hope these don't have that issue.
The 4L60 is related to the TH400.
The 4L30E is very similar to the TH180, something of a lightweight TH350. They don't have any "issues" other than BMW told people the oil didn't ever need to be changed.

[XAlt]

Yep. My e46 is currently getting the auto repaired. So much easier with a manual. It breaks you swap in another good used one for a few hundred, and they do t break unless you break them.. Autotragics, well they are going to wear out by design, so you take them to the shop and hope they are repairable instead of having to buy a rebuilt one for a stack of cash.
change your fluid every 40-100K depending on how you drive = win

it's not that hard, unless you have terrible luck or have been bred to hate automatics by elitists



The Mercedes of that era have shorter gears and start in second, which I don't like that much. That's the only thing that pushes me back from buying a 600 SEL W140.
Honestly the torque makes up for it. I almost bought one before my E39, and it felt like a rocketship. It's one of those slushboxes that has common sense, most of the late-80s\early-90s autotragics are a bit slow to shift, but they have common sense that carried on to the faster shifting -tronic transmissions.


As I see, the controversy continues. :D

I'd never consider a Z3 with an automatic, in the same way that I don't see the point of a luxury sedan with a manual, unless it's an M5.

The E34 with manual transmission feels great, but I still think the autobox suits the car better IMHO.
The pre-E60 5-series was basically two cars in one. You have a baby-7 series highway cruiser, and you have a big(er) sports car. The Z3 is like the Auto Miata, it's something so shamefully sinful, but when you actually drive one, it feels perfect just to drop the top, turn on the radio and relax. People used to try and gang up on the 944 Autos because "3 SPEED AUTO HAHAHAHAHA DIE YOU LAZY SCUM GO DRIVE A COROLLA" even though it still handled and cruised like a dream. You still have this BS going on with the GT86 family over half a second of acceleration and elitism.

[samgm]

A man's transmission? Really? I have plenty of cars with manual transmissions. They all have one thing in common, with aggressive driving they need a lot of clutches replaced and it's hard to have a cup of coffee in the morning without dumping in your lap.

A manual transmission is old, out dated technology. It is hard for a manual transmission to hold any real power. Moreover, it CANNOT give you the torque multiplication that the torque converter provides when the car isn't moving because fluid can be redirected through the stator in the return path.

Many torque converters can triple the torque output of the engine and do so without burning up a clutch which ALWAYS results in engine torque loss. A modern automatic transmission and even not so modern will hand a manual transmission its lunch in any performance application. In the quarter mile, a manual transmission can't even begin to compete. Even in autocross it is usually more of a hinderance than an asset. I've seen people keep the car in a single gear rather than lose time shifting. When they do shift, they're dropping the clutch in order to avoid incinerating it.

Been there, done that. Not having anything to prove and wanting every advantage on the track, I will take the automatic EVERY time. I just build a 4L60e that I upgraded to pinion planetary gears (front and read), zPak 3-4 clutches, hardened sun-shell, etc. and I can easily handle 1000 HP. Try that with a manual.

[samgm]

I completely agree with you. Automatic transmissions are typically more reliable and handle more power. I can almost ALWAYS beat my autocross time with an automatic. In the quarter mile, don't bother if you are driving a manual. Mastering left foot braking in an automatic in autocross can make you all but impossible to beat. I have more than a dozen roadsters. I will almost always take the automatic over a manual. I drive both very well. I just prefer the convenience and the performance advantages of the automatic.

[Onizukachan]

A man's transmission? Really? I have plenty of cars with manual transmissions. They all have one thing in common, with aggressive driving they need a lot of clutches replaced and it's hard to have a cup of coffee in the morning without dumping in your lap.

Been there, done that. Not having anything to prove and wanting every advantage on the track, I will take the automatic EVERY time. I just build a 4L60e that I upgraded to pinion planetary gears (front and read), zPak 3-4 clutches, hardened sun-shell, etc. and I can easily handle 1000 HP. Try that with a manual.


as to the former paragraph I suggest you simply aren’t a very good driver, both because you burn up clutches and dump coffee in your lap.


as the the latter, allow me to point you at the factory zf 5 speed manual that came in the e34… bone stock.

[Pink120]

https://i.postimg.cc/ZYc6NfPm/Untitled.png