Leather from World Upholstery or zoomzoomzoom-ing

[bmrhvn1]

I received leather samples in Lotus White, planning to re-do my front seats. Both samples match for color to the plastic in the car, like around the shifter. The World leather is supple and nice feeling with an embossed texture that looks like leather and very similar to some places in my seats. The ebay seller's sample has machine stamped texture of small dots embossed into the surface. From a distance it looks smooth, but like a golf ball. So that's one thing.

When I turned the samples over the World Uph sample was clearly real leather. The back surface has a very random structure. The other sample has a sort of rough surface like a closely shorn hide, it also has very uniform imprint that looks like a woven fabric. That's puzzling.

The pictures show World Uph and his together in normal view front and back, then closeups of both front and back sides. I suppose the embossed texture is fake in each. Is it possible whatever machine they use to create the little dots also imprints what looks like a fabric pattern on the back side?

[bimas]

I don't know about the golf ball pattern, but the first one looks good. Although, man-made you say? How does it feel?

[bmrhvn1]

I don't think it's man made, other than the surface being embossed with the tiny dots. I'm pretty sure the World Upholstery leather goes through a similar process to emboss the wrinkled look. The leather in my car is actually very smooth - no visible texture or pattern at all, other than in the softer cushion areas in the rear seats where it does have more of the wrinkled look. When I first felt zoom-ing's sample it felt odd, more like a rubbery feel. After playing with it for a while it feels better. It isn't as slippery as the other. Maybe that's a good thing. I wonder if the tiny dots would collect dirt and make it harder to clean. Still haven't decided which way to go, but zoom-ing is 56% of World's price.

[ldk]

Take a hot soldering iron to each sample. Leather will smoke and smell something like having your teeth drilled at the dentist. Something fake will probably melt and smell like burning plastic.

[dcains]

I've got some black leather samples from World, and they are truly beautiful and top-quality. And, they're vat-dyed, so the color goes all the way through, and the surface is unsealed, which means the hide can be moisturized and maintained in perpetuity.

As for your other sample, of course I haven't seen it, but I surely wouldn't buy from any company which doesn't fully disclose what it is they're selling.

[1SGDHORN]

Does the leather in the 635 have a pattern/grain as it came from the factory? My M6 leather does not have a grain.

[dcains]

No, not really, but you can tell it's a natural product with slight variations in the surface. The factory leather is top-coated with the color layer, and that obscures the natural pores in the leather.

[FlyOverCountry]

I was happy with What I got from Zoom Zoom for the money.

[bmrhvn1]

Did yours also have the tiny dot embossing? As noted, the original leather doesn't really have any pattern. Zoom's tiny dot pattern looks like smooth leather from a couple feet away. My closeup pictures were taken with a Canon SX20 that focuses down to zero cm, so the lens was in contact with the leather. Picture 2 has the small World sample on top of Zoom's. World's sample is only about 1-1/4" tall for scale. Zoom's is vat dyed, imported from Germany. I do like the look of World's sample, but since it's different from the rest of the car, I should probably talk myself out of it and save $700.

[dcains]

The zoom sample looks like "bonded" leather:

http://www.saddlebackleather.com/craftsmanship/chpt4-leather-101-lesson-in-leather

If so, it's probably overpriced.

[bmrhvn1]

The sample sure smells like leather. I'll try the burn test at home tonight.

[Layne]

The dotted stuff looks like human skin. I wouldn't upholster a doghouse with that. If the World stuff is actually embossed, I wouldn't use that either. Buy some real leather. How many more times do you want to redo these?

[alpinacsi]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanning

Hmm; I wonder about that leather smell.

"The English word for tanning is from medieval Latin tannāre, deriv. of tannum (oak bark (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_bark)), related to Old High German (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_High_German) tanna meaning oak or fir (related to modern Tannenbaum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannenbaum_(disambiguation))). This refers to use of the bark of oaks (the original source of tannin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannin)) in some kinds of hide preservation.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanning#cite_note-1)
In ancient history (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_history), tanning was considered a noxious or "odoriferous trade" and relegated to the outskirts of town (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City-state), amongst the poor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty). Indeed, tanning by ancient methods is so foul smelling that tanneries are still isolated from those towns today where the old methods are used. Ancient civilizations used leather for waterskins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterskin), bags, harnesses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_harness), boats, armour (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armour), quivers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiver), scabbards (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scabbard), boots (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot) and sandals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandal_(footwear)). Tanning was being carried out by the South Asian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia) inhabitants of Mehrgarh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehrgarh) between 7000–3300 BC.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanning#cite_note-Possehl-2) Around 2500 BC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2500_BC), the Sumerians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer) began using leather, affixed by copper (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper) studs (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stud#Etymology_2), on chariot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot) wheels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel).
Skins typically arrived at the tannery dried stiff and dirty with soil and gore. First, the ancient tanners would soak the skins in water to clean and soften them. Then they would pound and scour the skin to remove any remaining flesh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flesh) and fat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat). Next, the tanner needed to remove the hair fibers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber) from the skin. This was done by either soaking the skin in urine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine)[citation needed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)], painting it with an alkaline (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline) lime (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lime_(material)) mixture, or simply allowing the skin to putrefy for several months then dipping it in a salt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt) solution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solution). After the hair fibers were loosened, the tanners scraped them off with a knife (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knife).
Once the hair was removed, the tanners would "bate" (soften) the material by pounding dung (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feces) into the skin, or soaking the skin in a solution of animal brains. Bating was a fermentative process which relied on enzymes produced by bacteria found in the dung. Among the kinds of dung commonly used were that of dogs or pigeons.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanning#cite_note-ghost-3) Sometimes the dung was mixed with water in a large vat, and the prepared skins were kneaded in the dung water until they became supple from bacterial enzyme action, but not too soft. The ancient tanner might use his bare feet to knead the skins in the dung water, and the kneading could last two or three hours.
This combination of urine, animal feces and decaying flesh is what made ancient tanneries so malodorous.
Children employed as dung gatherers were a common sight in ancient cities. Also common were "piss-pots" located on street corners, where human urine could be collected for use in tanneries or by washerwomen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washing). In some variations of the process, cedar oil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedar_oil), alum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alum) or tannin were applied to the skin as a tanning agent. As the skin was stretched, it would lose moisture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moisture) and absorb the agent.
Leftover leather would be turned into glue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_glue). Tanners would place scraps of hides (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hides) in a vat of water and let them deteriorate for months. The mixture would then be placed over a fire to boil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling) off the water to produce hide glue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_glue).
A tannery may be associated with a grindery, originally a whetstone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpening_stone) facility for sharpening knives and other sharp tools, but later could carry shoemakers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoemaker)' tools and materials for sale.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanning#cite_note-4)"

[bmrhvn1]

I used a propane grill lighter on each sample. They both reacted the same way, curling up when I heated the top side, and charring the back. The zoom sample took quite a bit more heat before it curled and before it charred the back. Actually the World sample curled up almost instantly. Probably because it's generally softer. And the back side has a lot longer 'threads' or whatever that surface would be called. The third picture is the samples in the car, flourescent light overhead, dome light on the samples. The seat color is close to what I see, at least on my computer, but the other samples are more tan than real life. The picture is really to indicate texture, which the seats don't have at all, other than cracks in the finish. The hint of wrinkling like the World sample is actually in the rear seat in the soft parts of the cushion.

So, upshot is Zoom is selling real leather. It's finished like 90% of other auto leather, just not with an expected pattern.

[dcains]

Bonded leather is real leather, just made up of pieced/pressed together scraps. Sort of like turkey roll you buy in a deli. FWIW, I sent an eBay message to zoom, and asked them directly if they were selling bonded leather. I got a purposely evasive answer stating "we sell 4 different grades of BMW and Porsche leather". If you're looking to save a few bucks and get a top-quality set of seats, have a look at one of the German-made vinyls. I've used them in my Alfa's and had beat results, even with lots of open top Florida sun exposure. Problem is, it's almost as expensive as real quality leather. We had an expensive couch once, which turned out to be bonded leather, and it was crap in about 2 years - never again, and that zoom seems a bit deceitful is also an issue, at least to me.

The only reason I haven't bought the front seat kits from World is that the black leather samples they sent me will make my rear seats like plastic. They look brand-new, but that top-coated OEM leather just can't compare to the vat-dyed stuff. I was afraid to ask what a full interior would cost, but when I get brave I'll give them another call.

[bmrhvn1]

From my reading, bonded leather has the shredded leather bits glued on the back of a vinyl top layer. So the top layer would melt if it were bonded. But both samples suffered the same damage. I don't doubt zoom is selling leather. zoom's leather is vat dyed, as is World's. I think the only difference is in the embossing process, and possibly whatever impact that has on the back side. World uses a pattern that looks like a slightly aged leather, and the small sample feels very nice - like a quality slightly aged leather! It is soft. Zoom's is a smoother finish (though not as smooth as the E24 original finish), and it's somewhat less soft than World's.

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"we sell 4 different grades of BMW and Porsche leather".
That's interesting because I only asked them for E24 in Lotus White. I've seen Porsche colors that might work out better and maybe they would have a smooth finish texture more like my original seats. It would be great if you could follow up with the questions about the grades and prices. World is $1600, zoom $900; round numbers. Neither place offered me options for grades of leather.

[dcains]

I asked them for the samples, and I'll let you know what I get.

[fred56]

I bought a whole hide from a company in Napa,Ca.for my 81 633 and their leather matched the original perfectly.

[1SGDHORN]

I see you have an L6. Isn't that the same leather that was used in the M6? If so, and please correct me if I am wrong, didn't BMW use a different leather altogether in the L6 and M6 than what was used in the 635 cars? The M6 got the Nappa (softer) leather or Highline. If this is correct, does anyone make a Nappa kit to re-do the L6 and M6 cars or isn't there any discernable difference? Any M6/L6 owners actually have first hand experience with this? I have heard nothing but good things about World UPH.


The "Highline" interior (http://www.bmwmregistry.com/faq/M6_Highline_Interior.jpg) refers to a special Nappa leather upholstery treatment, whereby hide is used to cover essentially every visible surface of the cabin. It includes hand-stitched Nappa leather on the seats, door panels, center console, glovebox door, headliner, sun visors, door pillars, upper door trim and dashboard. This interior was standard on all U.S-specification M6s built before June of 1987, as well as all examples of the UK-specification M635CSi that were produced after June of 1987. In some other European markets, the Highline interior could be ordered as an extra-cost option, though it was extremely expensive and only about a dozen cars were so equipped. (from BMW "M" Registry)

[1SGDHORN]

There is a set of rear leather seats covers on Ebay right now for $599.00. If they were the same pattern as my M6 I may have been interested but, more importantly the seller has posted some good pictures that show the grain and build quality of the covers.

[bmrhvn1]

Right, mine was described as Nappa. I bought samples from BMW sample books from an ebay guy some years ago. Lotus White was available on more than L6 and M6 if I remember right. But Nappa wasn't. I'll have to hunt for the samples to identify which cars these went into. The one with no texture is probably what I have. I think it was offered in the M-coupe too. At least when I sat in one the leather was very soft.

[bmrhvn1]

Looks like Lotus White fades to Silver Grey with time and sun. Unfortunately the plastic parts don't. And neither does the headliner so I'd end up redyeing that, even if the seat color matched the rears and other leather ok. Or hunt for plastic parts in Silver Grey and leave the headliner alone. Does anyone have pictures of their L6/M6 Silver Grey interior?

[1SGDHORN]

Seeing that you brought up the fading two-tone subject I have a question, when these cars were new did all of the leather and plastic trim pieces match? The picture below is of my 1987 M6 and you can see that the little plastic trim pieces are no longer the same color as the leather, I assume from the color in the leather fading? When the seat leather is replaced with a kit I assume it will more closely match the less faded plastic trim pieces or will these pieces have to be painted to color match them to the seats. When new did the trim piece exactly match the color of the leather or were they a little contrasting?

One reason I love all black interiors.

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If money were no object my interior restoration plan would be to buy new seat kits front and rear and then send a sample of the new leather to leatherique and have them color match some dye. I'd remove every single piece of the interior (minus the headliner) and re-color everything to match the new seat leather. If all the plastic trim pieces are supposed to match I'd go to my local automotive paint supply store and have them mix up some SEM plastics paint that was also color matched to the new leather.


A lot of work but this is the only way I see getting everything to match. I did this when I restored my 1982 MB 300SD interior and the results were so worth it. Though that interior was black and a whole lot easier.

[tschultz]

^^ I think your plastic bits are yellowing from sum exposure. Looks like the Lotus White leather is in good shape still.

[dcains]

I got the samples from Zoom this afternoon, and I'll have to say it's not something I'd use in one of my cars. They sent two samples of what they called "top-quality German leather", and both pieces have that same odd dimpled pattern of the sample they sent to 'bmrhnv1'. One piece was very slightly thicker than the other, but both were thin, as compared to what I have from World, and other leather I've used on the past. I'm no expert, and this stuff looks and smells like real leather, but I'm doubtful that it's top grain (thus the embossed dimples), and it just has an odd, "plastic" feel to it, perhaps from the way it's processed. The thinner sample has that cloth-like pattern on the back (perhaps from the embossing), while the thicker sample has a suede-like texture, which is more natural-looking. Price quote was $895 for both front sports seats, not including the back panels, and I guess that was for either type of leather, since it wasn't specified.

So, I don't know, and I don't want to disparage a company's product based on my limited knowledge, but I think when I redo the leather in my car, I'm going with a kit from World.

[alpinacsi]

Has anyone used GAHH?

[dcains]

No, but I've heard their stuff is top-notch and scary expensive.

[Bert Poliakoff]

Any of you guys talk with GAHH in LA? I had my seats done locally so I didn’t check their leather. I did get my headliner from them and was more than pleased as to both quality and fit. If you call GAHH, they can be googled, ask for Jack. If he is still there, you will find a guy who knows his “stuff”. For one reason or another, I recommended World for a top for his 450SL, and although it fit, to me it wasn’t dead on as to quality and fit . Also zoom zoom is mostly a car parter and I suggest, again, going to the source. Cantor Brothers, (sp), again can be googled, sells Connely and Bridge of Weir leather which is way at the top of the line. It is also vat dyed tarher than topical.These guys have been around for over 45 years