Auto to Manual...should I bother??

[pjksutherland]

My '87 635 has the wonderful auto box that we all love so much! It works fine, but I have clunking on engaging the gears so know that the driveshaft needs work.

I've put off doing this while I contemplate the manual conversion. Aside from all the parts needed, what would it cost me to just take it to someone and get it done? A ball park of hours involved for a decent mechanic to do it would really help.

I know with the best will in the world I'd never get around to doing it myself - time with my boys (2 and 5) is more important. I've found an e28 donor car, so I guess I could at least strip that down to aid the process, but having looked at threads on doing the swap on the e24 I have to say it looks daunting with too many places where I could either go wrong or just get utterly confused. My thinking is that a mechanic would rather do the whole job than be presented with a car that I have pulled apart and then not been able to put back together - although I'm assuming providing the e28 donor parts (instead of the whole car) would be OK?

I have full admiration for those of you who have done the conversion yourselves, but I just don't think I'd be able to manage it.... so is it even worth entertaining the idea of paying someone to do it, or should I just get my auto box and driveshaft sorted and enjoy it as it is?

[dwal95008]

My '87 635 has the wonderful auto box that we all love so much! It works fine, but I have clunking on engaging the gears so know that the driveshaft needs work.

I've put off doing this while I contemplate the manual conversion. Aside from all the parts needed, what would it cost me to just take it to someone and get it done? A ball park of hours involved for a decent mechanic to do it would really help.

I know with the best will in the world I'd never get around to doing it myself - time with my boys (2 and 5) is more important. I've found an e28 donor car, so I guess I could at least strip that down to aid the process, but having looked at threads on doing the swap on the e24 I have to say it looks daunting with too many places where I could either go wrong or just get utterly confused. My thinking is that a mechanic would rather do the whole job than be presented with a car that I have pulled apart and then not been able to put back together - although I'm assuming providing the e28 donor parts (instead of the whole car) would be OK?

I have full admiration for those of you who have done the conversion yourselves, but I just don't think I'd be able to manage it.... so is it even worth entertaining the idea of paying someone to do it, or should I just get my auto box and driveshaft sorted and enjoy it as it is?

As someone who just forked over 4,000+ for this job I would ask you this: What are your plans for the car? If you plan on going out for spirited and FAST runs I would say do it. If you use the car as a normal sexy cruiser car then get it sorted and leave it be.

[Eemueekmu]

Unless you do it yourself, or even better, find a friend to do it for you, the cost isn't in your favor.
It really depends on what you plan to do and also depends on the current condition of your auto trans.
if your trans is in need of replacement or major overhaul, now might be the best time to make the swap.
worse case, if you can't make up your mind, take all the parts from your parts car and save them until you make a definitive choice.
but I'm not one to talk; I have the parts car, the guy willing to do it, but I can't make up my mind because I've see a few auto trans e24/e28s that run AWESOME.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pJRu_oZm8b8

its a hard choice to make. Lucky we have a car thats cool either way. :)

[pjksutherland]

As someone who just forked over 4,000+ for this job I would ask you this: What are your plans for the car? If you plan on going out for spirited and FAST runs I would say do it. If you use the car as a normal sexy cruiser car then get it sorted and leave it be.

What my plans are really depends on the day you ask me! I like the idea of keeping it long term, as in not really ever selling it - it's got enough space for me to use with 2 kids now and would make a perfect car for cross Europe jaunts for my wife and I a few years down the line (we're living in Canada now but I think we'll head back to England one day and the BMW would come with us). In terms of driving, the roads in the area I live in now are hardly made for fast cornering and having fun going up and down the gears, so in that respect the auto box is fine, but I've come to the 635 from a long line of manual cars, including an e21 323i, a 1977 Porsche 911, several Saab 900 Turbos and a Triumph Stag, so I'm not really an auto guy. The 635 was a purchase made out of impatience when I first got to Canada and needed some kind of classic/old-school car to drive, but I've had it nearly 2 years now and am quite attached to it, especially as my boys love it and call it the 'vroomin' car!


Unless you do it yourself, or even better, find a friend to do it for you, the cost isn't in your favor.
It really depends on what you plan to do and also depends on the current condition of your auto trans.
if your trans is in need of replacement or major overhaul, now might be the best time to make the swap.
worse case, if you can't make up your mind, take all the parts from your parts car and save them until you make a definitive choice.
but I'm not one to talk; I have the parts car, the guy willing to do it, but I can't make up my mind because I've see a few auto trans e24/e28s that run AWESOME.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pJRu_oZm8b8

its a hard choice to make. Lucky we have a car thats cool either way. :)

I think my auto box is in decent shape. As I said I know there is a driveline issue - aside from the clunking when D is engaged, there is some vibration as you pull away. I think if I got that sorted it would be much nicer to drive. I'm also in need of a new exhaust as mine is disintegrating, so perhaps a stainless system would make the car sound and feel more alive. $4000 is a lot to do the swap, in fact more than I paid for the car itself! Perhaps just getting the issues it has sorted out makes more sense.

Thanks for the advice fellas, it is much appreciated.

[e24mpwr]

Honestly, if you're keeping it a long time it is probably worth it to have it done. I think the cars are much better with the manual.

[Shipper]

I have a 1977 633CSi that after 37 years, had a B32 with about 160hp. As a 5 speed overdrive manual, it was as fast as a 1988 220hp euro B35. The manual should drop your acceleration times to 62mph by 1 sec.

[1986series6]

I'm doing the swap because of the downshifting on the track.

I'm 70 and think I'll leave this to my shop that has a lift.

Lee, the tech has swapped before, $1500 is the quote.

I bought the swap from Joel in Texas, lucky me, from an 86 like mine,

same Jan. 86 production date. Should be very little fabricating.

I posted this Nov. 2014, for a question about the auto.

"The picture of my Avatar was taken @ WGI this past May.

I used manual shifting. Approaching the bust stop i could just about get to 102 mph in third.

I would have to brake and downshift about 300 feet before the right hander and wait for the auto to downshift into

second while going straight. If I went a little deeper it would down shift in the turn making for raised heart beats.

Other than having to do that at most of the turns, the auto was fun. Oh yeah, owned for 26 yrs., 132,000 miles.

changed fluid and filter about 4 times over the years.

In Sept. @ LRP in Conn. I used the same technique and the auto liked LRP better than WGI because of the shorter straights.

I've only driven 4 track days in the last 15 years, but I'm planning on doing 2 or 3 a year because it was a blast, slushbox and all.

Bob V "

[FernandoBunster]

In my opinion; fix the driveline issue and enjoy the car. Sell it before you return to the UK and buy a right hand drive, 5-speed e24 when you get home. I'd hate to drive a left hand drive car in the UK.

- - - Updated - - -


I'm doing the swap because of the downshifting on the track.

I'm 70 and think I'll leave this to my shop that has a lift.

Lee, the tech has swapped before, $1500 is the quote.

I bought the swap from Joel in Texas, lucky me, from an 86 like mine,

same Jan. 86 production date. Should be very little fabricating.

I posted this Nov. 2014, for a question about the auto.

"The picture of my Avatar was taken @ WGI this past May.

I used manual shifting. Approaching the bust stop i could just about get to 102 mph in third.

I would have to brake and downshift about 300 feet before the right hander and wait for the auto to downshift into

second while going straight. If I went a little deeper it would down shift in the turn making for raised heart beats.

Other than having to do that at most of the turns, the auto was fun. Oh yeah, owned for 26 yrs., 132,000 miles.

changed fluid and filter about 4 times over the years.

In Sept. @ LRP in Conn. I used the same technique and the auto liked LRP better than WGI because of the shorter straights.

I've only driven 4 track days in the last 15 years, but I'm planning on doing 2 or 3 a year because it was a blast, slushbox and all.

Bob V "

Bob, you won't need to do any fabricating. Every thing will bolt right up as long as you have all the correct OEM parts.

[e24mpwr]

In my opinion; fix the driveline issue and enjoy the car. Sell it before you return to the UK and buy a right hand drive, 5-speed e24 when you get home. I'd hate to drive a left hand drive car in the UK.

I think that is probably more common than you'd think, and finding a nice 5-speed might be kinda tough - the inspection and tax laws over there don't encourage old cars...

[1986series6]

+1 on what Fernando said. Fix it and enjoy!

[LarryM]

+2 on Fernando. Fix the driveline (probably just needs a rebuilt driveshaft and new CSB) and enjoy the car for what it is.

Even though there's no doubt that a manual tranny adds to the driving fun of nearly any car, as you've discovered the size and weight of 6ers make them better suited to long-distance interstate cruising so the expense to covert wouldn't be a great return on your investment IMO. Plus the car would no longer be "factory original" if that matters to you.

If you still have the need to shift for yourself, find another car that's more naturally matched to a manual tranny such as any number of lightweight, fling-able sports cars (like your Porsche, Triumph, 3-series Bimmer, etc.) and enjoy the winding roads in that.

[1988Terp]

I did mine last year.... The Pedal Box is the most difficult component to locate. If you, or anyone else, need one, I have an extra E24 pedal set for sale. $150 shipped anywhere in the lower 48.

-Mike

[Derekwh]

I have a question about this. Assuming one were to make the conversion from AT to MT and assuming the job was done correctly, what effect would this have on resale value if the car were to be sold, ie. the data from the VIN would indicate an auto trans?

[bkats]

I have a question about this. Assuming one were to make the conversion from AT to MT and assuming the job was done correctly, what effect would this have on resale value if the car were to be sold, ie. the data from the VIN would indicate an auto trans?

Unless the car is low-mileage and/or completely close to mint-original, the swap would more-than-likely fetch a higher price. That's not the same as resale value as it would be listed as a custom/modified vehicle. It's mostly purchased as a weekend highway cruiser, so the MT doesn't put off many people.

[dm635]

Very worth while swap if you ask me. But I do all my own work. So it was just my time and cost of parts. I now have an electronic auto to get rid of.

[ShapeShifter]

In my opinion; fix the driveline issue and enjoy the car. Sell it before you return to the UK and buy a right hand drive, 5-speed e24 when you get home. I'd hate to drive a left hand drive car in the UK.

This, especially if you can not DIY.


Bob, you won't need to do any fabricating. Every thing will bolt right up as long as you have all the correct OEM parts.

If this bracket is not in your trans tunnel, you will have to weld one in. Make sure to grab this from the parts car.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Smokiemon968/89%20BMW%20635CSI/build%20pics/6ad0d43d.jpg

[alpinacsi]

The bracket is available new from the dealer for about $10 but all of the e24s that I have converted already had this bracket in place.

[Dash01]

5 speed pedal box question:

In some BMWs of that era, reportedly the automatic to 5 speed conversion does not require a whole new pedal box, but only addition of the clutch pedal. Reportedly, most of the stuff is already in the automatic, including pedal mount, etc. If so, perhaps an E28 or E34 clutch pedal and associated gear would plug and play into an E24.

Is this so?

[driftcrazy]

5 speed pedal box question:

In some BMWs of that era, reportedly the automatic to 5 speed conversion does not require a whole new pedal box, but only addition of the clutch pedal. Reportedly, most of the stuff is already in the automatic, including pedal mount, etc. If so, perhaps an E28 or E34 clutch pedal and associated gear would plug and play into an E24.

Is this so?

I'm just starting my auto to manual swap... Only the pedal is required with the longer bolt also. The mounts for the clutch master and return spring are on the auto pedal box. The shifter mount in the trans tunnel is also there. I've heard the e28 pedal will fit, I just parted an e28 for my swap and the pedal looked exactly the same.... Same positioning for the return spring and clutch master bolts. Clutch master and return spring are the same exact parts. I gave the car to a friend to take what he needs but I'm sure I can grab the clutch pedal to compare measurements and give it to someone if they need it.

[alpinacsi]

The auto pedal bracket is different and does not have the mount for the clutch return spring nor does it have the threaded mounts for the clutch master to mount to. But if the pedal mount has ever been replaced: the replacements from BMW are now the same for both the auto and manual. The replacement pedal mounts from BMW are less than $35 new.

[dwal95008]

When I did my auto to manual swap all I had to do was replace the brake pedal wrist bolt with the one from the manual and slide everything in as though it were always meant to be manual. I welded in a stopper for the return spring and all was well.

[dwal95008]

I did have to use the e24 box as the e28 one WILL NOT FIT this is from experience not conjecture.

[dm635]

I did have a problem using an E28 5 series clutch pedal on an e24 pedal box. There is a difference between the E28 and E24 pedal that you can't hardly see when looking at them side to side. The problem I had with the E28 pedal was there didn't seem to be enough actuation. All the way to the floor and barely enough to shift without grinding. And pedal height was about even with the brake pedal or a little less. Once I installed an E24 pedal it was great, plenty of feel and pedal height was higher than the brake pedal. If you ever notice you will see on most of these cars that the clutch pedal does sit slightly higher than the brake pedal. If it doesn't I think that it should. It's something I notice now after my problem.

I drove like that for probably a year wondering what I did wrong including changing the master and slave. And I'm sure the pedals did have different part numbers. Like I said, side by side they look exact. Not enough to cause a difference. In my case it did.

[Dash01]

I'm just starting my auto to manual swap... Only the pedal is required with the longer bolt also. The mounts for the clutch master and return spring are on the auto pedal box. The shifter mount in the trans tunnel is also there. I've heard the e28 pedal will fit, I just parted an e28 for my swap and the pedal looked exactly the same.... Same positioning for the return spring and clutch master bolts. Clutch master and return spring are the same exact parts. I gave the car to a friend to take what he needs but I'm sure I can grab the clutch pedal to compare measurements and give it to someone if they need it.

What manufacture dates E24 and E28 do you have for basis of this observation? As BMW makes subtle changes over time, perhaps a given pedal or box detail that exists on your cars, does not exist on all other E24 and E28 cars. Any further insights you have would be much appreciated, and would sure help when scavenging parts at a junkyard. Otherwise, perhaps a not-quite-right pedal from an E28 could be easily modified to properly fit an E24.

And, does anybody here know if the whole pedal box assembly from an E34 5 speed will plug and play into an E24?

[dwal95008]

I did have a problem using an E28 5 series clutch pedal on an e24 pedal box. There is a difference between the E28 and E24 pedal that you can't hardly see when looking at them side to side. The problem I had with the E28 pedal was there didn't seem to be enough actuation. All the way to the floor and barely enough to shift without grinding. And pedal height was about even with the brake pedal or a little less. Once I installed an E24 pedal it was great, plenty of feel and pedal height was higher than the brake pedal. If you ever notice you will see on most of these cars that the clutch pedal does sit slightly higher than the brake pedal. If it doesn't I think that it should. It's something I notice now after my problem.

I drove like that for probably a year wondering what I did wrong including changing the master and slave. And I'm sure the pedals did have different part numbers. Like I said, side by side they look exact. Not enough to cause a difference. In my case it did.


Im usingone and I have plenty of actuation. I also had to put in everything all new so I can only assume that you may need to bleed your clutch fluid of air, or change it.

[dm635]

It's worked perfectly fine with the E24 pedal. This was just my observation on the problem I had with my car.

[driftcrazy]

What manufacture dates E24 and E28 do you have for basis of this observation? As BMW makes subtle changes over time, perhaps a given pedal or box detail that exists on your cars, does not exist on all other E24 and E28 cars. Any further insights you have would be much appreciated, and would sure help when scavenging parts at a junkyard. Otherwise, perhaps a not-quite-right pedal from an E28 could be easily modified to properly fit an E24.

And, does anybody here know if the whole pedal box assembly from an E34 5 speed will plug and play into an E24?

The manufacture date of the my e24 is 5/17/85. I'm not sure about the e28 date, it's been scrapped already. Any help you need swapping feel free to shoot me a PM! I hit the junkyard often but these cars are getting harder to find.

[pthm]

Did the conversionj on an e34 with new driveshaft and random bits, about a grand

driftcrazy has a 265 and I have the bellhousing for it

[driftcrazy]

Did the conversionj on an e34 with new driveshaft and random bits, about a grand

driftcrazy has a 265 and I have the bellhousing for it

Very reasonably priced, I might add.

Check your messenger.... I found you an LSD!

[Dash01]

The manufacture date of the my e24 is 5/17/85. I'm not sure about the e28 date, it's been scrapped already. Any help you need swapping feel free to shoot me a PM! I hit the junkyard often but these cars are getting harder to find.

Thanks, Drift, I appreciate it mucho.

I have a 1/85 E24 with automatic tranny, and a '90 E34 535i with blown engine and 5 speed. Both have 3.47 LSD. I got the E34 for $700 and considered just dropping in a M30B35 block, as the PO managed to throw #3 rod through the side of the crank case. But, the car is green, paint not so good, but with perfect Natur leather interior.

So, I may just swap the E34 5 speed conversion parts into the '85 Shark, then sell or recycle the extra E34 parts.

[pjksutherland]

Just now getting back to this thread after starting it a few months ago.... it has made for interesting reading and given me plenty to think about - there's been some great advice given.

I am leaning towards just getting the issues mine has sorted - I don't have the experience or enough in the way of time to do manual conversion myself - and am not sure I can justify the chunk of cash needed to get someone else to do it.

I've not used the 6er much lately - a Land Rover Discovery purchase has put paid to that! I've taken it out a couple of times lately and realize it is time to spend a bit of money and TLC on it, on my list is:

- New brake pads
- Replace current springs with a set of H&R (seems PO may have cut springs to lower the car and it's eaten through a new set of Goodyears on the inner edge in just a couple of thousand kms - which I'm putting down to camber issues)
- Do shocks when springs are done - seems to make sense to?
- Sort vibrating driveline
- Fit stainless exhaust - I've been told my exhaust may well fall apart when removed to do the driveline!
- Replace cracked headlamp
- Sort creaking steering pump

With this little list to done it should feel a lot better to drive (and the cost of doing this makes doing a gearbox conversion even less justifiable!)

[wfwright2]

IMHO, to keep from doing the same work twice, if you are contemplating replacing shocks/struts in the near future, replace them when you do the springs - exact same job - no reason to do it twice. In the rear, replace the bump stops and plan on replacing the upper mount. In front, unless you go with Bilstiens, replace the bump stop and lube the upper mount bearing with grease. Keeps you from having to go in again shortly.

[pjksutherland]

IMHO, to keep from doing the same work twice, if you are contemplating replacing shocks/struts in the near future, replace them when you do the springs - exact same job - no reason to do it twice. In the rear, replace the bump stops and plan on replacing the upper mount. In front, unless you go with Bilstiens, replace the bump stop and lube the upper mount bearing with grease. Keeps you from having to go in again shortly.

Cool, thanks for the advice. As for shocks, I'm not sure whether to go for the Bilstein Sport or HDs? The car is low now, and I think will actually be raised slightly even though I plan to get a set of H&R lowering springs. I assume the shocks don't affect ride height, just ride feel? Am I right in thinking the HDs are a bit more compliant (softer)?

[wfwright2]

From the Bilstien site, the HD and sports are valved the same. If installing lowering springs (lower than stock), use the sports, per Bilstien, so that the shock action will be correct. With HD the rest point of the suspension travel will be higher than the center point of shock action. Should not break anything, but you will not get the true Bilstien ride. They are more than a bit stiffer than stock, especially worn stock.

[pjksutherland]

From the Bilstien site, the HD and sports are valved the same. If installing lowering springs (lower than stock), use the sports, per Bilstien, so that the shock action will be correct. With HD the rest point of the suspension travel will be higher than the center point of shock action. Should not break anything, but you will not get the true Bilstien ride. They are more than a bit stiffer than stock, especially worn stock.

Thanks. I'm not sure I even know what stock ride feels like, as mine appears to be anything but if the butchered springs are anything to go by!

Anybody recommend a stockist of the shocks and springs in Canada?

[tschultz]

Lowering springs, you need bilstein sports.

Stock springs (not cut), use HD's:

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/BMW-E28/c-79-bmw-bilstein-shock-strut-sets.aspx

[n2bimmer]

Whats involved in swapping auto to manual on a 81 633? is it the same process? same parts as a later 635? Thanks

[pjksutherland]

Lowering springs, you need bilstein sports.

Stock springs (not cut), use HD's:

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/BMW-E28/c-79-bmw-bilstein-shock-strut-sets.aspx

Thanks for the link... better start saving my pennies!

What are the thoughts on second hand suspension (assuming you can find it)? Are someone else's used shocks and springs a bad idea?