Motor Oil (& Coolant?) Leaking from Torque Converter '03 540i

[sienayr]

Haven't been able to find much on a leak with these symptoms in my due diligence. Car has 101k (it is a touring), here is the history of engine gasket replacement:

5/19/2011 75,261 miles
Front Crank Seal
VANOS Gasket
Valve Cover Gasket
Upper Timing Cover Gasket

I purchased the car in August.


I noticed that there was oil dripping out of the rubber access cover on the torque converter since I've had it, it would leave small drips on the floor, nothing major. The rubber cover was wet with oil.
I changed the motor oil a week ago. It was my first oil change on the vehicle and I accidentally overfilled it, I didn't account for filling the oil filter housing to prime the oil filter. The oil on the dip stick covered the entire tip of the dipstick. I drained some oil out today to normalize the level, but it was driven yesterday with the extra oil in it. Boneheaded, yes.
We made a stop for about two hours yesterday after driving 70-80 miles mostly highway, and when I checked there was no oil dripping where the car was parked.
After driving a few hundred miles total yesterday, there are was a large pool of oil on the floor after the car sat all night. Definitely the fresh motor oil I put in and not tranny fluid.
The car currently has an SES light. The codes are P2187 and P2189, System Too Lean at Idle. We've noticed very slight drop in RPMs at idle occasionally but nothing major. Probably not related to this issue since the drips were there prior to the codes, but wanted to include the info anyway. It was on, went off for a few days, then came back. I have CVV on my list of to-dos for this.
Overall the car still runs like a champ. No power loss, no smoking that i've seen.
The leaked oil has a blue tinge, and there is what appears to be coolant ‘crust’ in the area of the oil leak on the torque converter, so it seems coolant is mixing in with the leaking oil. Not sure what that means but it can’t be good. Coolant level is normal. I had noticed the blue tinge before, but it may be due to the clean oil that it is now evident.


I examined very thoroughly under then engine, and do not see any other evidence of oil leakage besides what is coming out of the torque converter.

Any info is appreciated. The fluid seen below, based on viscosity, is mostly motor oil despite the color. The oil only has a few hundred miles on it so it isn't too dirty yet.

<Driver's side
http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag469/sienayr/Posts/P1040602_zpsc1815c31.jpg

http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag469/sienayr/Posts/P1040606_zps46d27807.jpg

http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag469/sienayr/Posts/P1040601_zps8da07cf2.jpg

[rf900rkw]

You have a major coolant leak and a minor oil leak. Fluids tend to travel back and down. Start looking up and forward until you find the source.

[auaq]

Time for cooling overhaul!

[AquilaBMW]

Randy - Think it might be the rear seal?

[rf900rkw]

It might be the rear seal, but it is usually valve covers. I've even seen engine mount arm leaks wick back along the pan and drip off the bellhousing.

Coolant leak likely is the heater hoses right above the bellhousing. Notice how these are never included in the all-inclusive cooling system service scripts. But it could be valve pan, or piper orings, or timing cover, or even the water pump

- - - Updated - - -

BTW, OP. If you successfully primed the oil filter housing, then it is broken. As long as the cap is off, the drain valve should empty the housing into the sump.

[e30ultimate]

Very likely the rear main seal. they dont seem to last past 10 years or 150k miles. The coolant leak perfectly decribes another pain in the rear gasket thats right above the rear main seal. You SHOULD do both if you ever drop the tranny. Replaced dozens over the years as a while im in there.



http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1390733-PSA-Coolant-leak-point

[jicaino]

I'd bet on VCG and coolant manifold related leakage.

[DanB]

There's also a little boomerang shaped metal plate right above the rear main seal with a gasket that can leak coolant (at least on the M62). Be very careful if this is the culprit, as the bolts can easily rust shear off and it's hard to back them out from that angle underneath the car.

[sienayr]

Thanks for the leads.

The cooling system was overhauled as follows:
radiator (3/6/08 56K miles)
9/16/2013 92,476 miles
various O rings
water pump
fan clutch
thermostat
upper and lower hoses (11537505229 &11537505228)
#1 and 2:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=DR63&mospid=47596&btnr=11_2267&hg=11&fg=35&hl=5

Coolant leak likely is the heater hoses right above the bellhousing.

Are these different than the hoses listed above?

I dropped the under tray after my wife got home this afternoon. After inspecting again I absolutely cannot see any signs of fresh oil leakage anywhere on the engine, front to back. I am new to the engine and don't exactly know where to look for the various leaks, but if there was a leak from any of the gaskets that typically leak should it visible from underneath the car? Checked the oil pan and don't see any signs of leakage from there.

- - - Updated - - -

Another detail I forgot about mentioning earlier, the pre-sale inspection from dealership indicated that the upper timing cover covers were "seeping". They actually said it was not bad enough that it had to be addressed right away. Is it possible this has gotten worse and the oil is coming from there?

[Flounderasu]

My bet would be Rear main seal, VCGs, and coolant plate directly above RMS.

I've done all 3 as they were all leaking & I started top to bottom. VCGs first hoping it was as easy as that - still dripping oil from bell housing.

At that point it was either the upper pan gasket or the RMS. Upon dropping the tranny (to do the clutch), RMS was leaking as was the coolant plate above the RMS. I still have a leaky valley pan though...

[jicaino]

coolant manifold is on the rear, that's what's most likely leaking and it's what people are referring to with "boomerang shaped piece that has gaskets" and such. Remove acoustic engine cover, remove both cabin filter housings to have a better view.

[DanB]

coolant manifold is on the rear, that's what's most likely leaking and it's what people are referring to with "boomerang shaped piece that has gaskets" and such. Remove acoustic engine cover, remove both cabin filter housings to have a better view.

No, the boomerang shaped cover is on the engine block, behind the flywheel right above the rear main seal. The coolant manifold is what you are thinking of, and yes can be more easily seen by removing the engine cover and cabin filter housings.

So many places for these cars to leak!

[Flounderasu]

No, the boomerang shaped cover is on the engine block, behind the flywheel right above the rear main

Yes, this is the one I was referring to as well. I still have to tackle the VP leak.....eventually....

[rf900rkw]

There are roughly 11 hoses in the cooling system, depending on exact model. Most "complete" cooling system overhauls replace two.

[DanB]

Yes, this is the one I was referring to as well. I still have to tackle the VP leak.....eventually....

I think every m62 owner should get to experience the agony and ecstasy of repairing all of the common problems; leaky gaskets, seals, and chain guides to name a few.

[jicaino]

No, the boomerang shaped cover is on the engine block, behind the flywheel right above the rear main seal. The coolant manifold is what you are thinking of, and yes can be more easily seen by removing the engine cover and cabin filter housings.

So many places for these cars to leak!

And stupid me thinking I actually overhauled ALL the cooling system because I got to the back of the engine while at it LOL

[DanB]

And stupid me thinking I actually overhauled ALL the cooling system because I got to the back of the engine while at it LOL

Not to worry; someday you might have the pleasure of taking the tranny and flywheel off & replacing the rear main seal, allowing access to that plate.

Why did BMW even put the plate there? I see no reason for it other than for the gasket to go bad and require a 10 hour shop repair. :(

[rf900rkw]

It covers the core support used during the casting process. If this was a Cheby, it would have three steel core plugs hammered in that fail due to galvanic corrosion after five years.

[jicaino]

Great, just great... I needed another psychotic fear/peeve. I think I can now smell coolant leaking for my car from that location, even tho the car's parked in the garage 2 blocks away from my seat at this computer. :lol

[DanB]

It covers the core support used during the casting process. If this was a Cheby, it would have three steel core plugs hammered in that fail due to galvanic corrosion after five years.

Well it's still a stupid asshole panel and the bolts tend to rust in place leaving you utterly f'd if you aren't a zen master with an easy-out (or left handed drill bits, etc). I had to replace a blown m62 on my e31 & that panel on the replacement (used) motor had 4 seized bolts that sheared. I couldn't extract the rusted remains even with the engine sitting on a pallet (I probably just suck). Thankfully, and to give them credit despite huge delays, Bavarian Recycling sent me another m62 under warranty with the boomerang panel removed. Another 540i owner (Randy Millar) had the same problem & last I heard had a useless block because of the same thing. There's gotta be a better way!

[jicaino]

Well it's still a stupid asshole panel and the bolts tend to rust in place leaving you utterly f'd if you aren't a zen master with an easy-out (or left handed drill bits, etc). I had to replace a blown m62 on my e31 & that panel on the replacement (used) motor had 4 seized bolts that sheared. I couldn't extract the rusted remains even with the engine sitting on a pallet (I probably just suck). Thankfully, and to give them credit despite huge delays, Bavarian Recycling sent me another m62 under warranty with the boomerang panel removed. Another 540i owner (Randy Millar) had the same problem & last I heard had a useless block because of the same thing. There's gotta be a better way!

titanium bolts would be a better way. Go find an unsuspecting BBS wheels owner and get them for free :devillook

[e30ultimate]

Yes those bolts suck. I have sheared many before I learned it was best to put a torch on them for a good 30-45 seconds at a time. Don't get to crazy as the block is alum. And I always use new bolts on those as well. Worst design/location/hardware ever

[DanB]

Yes those bolts suck. I have sheared many before I learned it was best to put a torch on them for a good 30-45 seconds at a time. Don't get to crazy as the block is alum. And I always use new bolts on those as well. Worst design/location/hardware ever

Great tip, will torch 'em if I ever have to do the job again.

[sienayr]

Quick update. Since the oil spill I originally reported on, not a drop of oil on the garage floor or up inside of the torque converter after several city and highway driving cycles. I cleaned everything up real well to be sure I can detect further leakage. I was peering up inside of the torque converter access hole with a flash light and could see coolant crust up in there similar to the picture in the post that was linked earlier in this thread. I'm starting to think that is from a long past coolant leak that was fixed, as this vehicle has had quite a bit of coolant repairs in its past based on its service records, and the oil washed some of it out when it leaked through. The other thing that strikes me when looking at the picture I took of the oil on the floor is how freakin' clear it is- I mean you can see the cracks in the garage floor through it! It pretty much looks like it was dumped straight out of the bottle right onto the floor (other than the blue tint). The oil that I drained out to normalize the level from the overfill was not nearly that clean, and I drained it right after that pool of oil appeared on the floor.

Very odd situation overall. If anything further develops I'll report back. Oh, and the SES light went out on it's own!

[sienayr]

Continue to have small pools of coolant appear erratically on the garage floor. Finally got the Check Coolant Level warning and had to top it off. I see cooked coolant in the corners of the valley pan area when peering down in there, so looks like it's the tell tale valley pan gasket. Turns out it is pretty common for coolant from a vpg leak to drip down and out through the bell housing. Planning to do that job in March, and replace all of your typical "while you're in there" stuff that comes with that job too, including every heater/coolant hose that I can easily access while it's apart. Hoping new ccv, ccv pipe, manifold gaskets, etc. will also fix the common cold weather shudders and recurring SES light we are getting when it's cold. Definitely a cold-blooded car right now.