Very strange steering

[Jamos]

So I hit a red light. Thew it in neutral and rolled to a stop as always.

Pulled away and steering was EXTREMELY heavy. Next right was even heavier and felt like rear wheel was coming off!

Next stop steering was just as heavy and i tried turning left right on the spot and it... was stuck! It popped free (no sound) and then was just heavy again.

turned the car off waited for green. Turned left in to parking lot and parked and it seeeeeemed fine.

what on earth?

[blackknight530i]

I wonder if it's the servotronic module failing. I still have my old steering gearbox for sale if that's what it ends up being. Have you checked the fluid level? Could be something wrong with the pump, but I'm betting it's something electronic if it was intermittent. Another possibility is the pitman arm might have loosened to where it's hitting the subframe as you turn the wheel. I've heard that disconnecting the connector for the servotronic can make the steering very heavy.

Sorry, that was all over the place, but I'm just throwing ideas out there.

[Jamos]

Ideas are appreciated!

Just drove an hour home, and all was fine!

Turns out I left my parking lights on for eight hours, ooops! Good thing I swapped to LEDs hahah!

Steering system all checks out. Sweating at the lines, but fluid is topped off. I bought a new pump and hoses and washers etc... last year but never got around to doing it because over winter the system performed great! It was only today that it was VERY strange. It usually gets heavy after driving for an hour in the heat, but today was at least TWICE as heavy as usual. VERY strange.

Though I AM glad it didn't happen again, it still concerns me that it happened at all in the first place.

Everything is connected, hoses seem fine, fluid level is topped off, no squealing or anything happening. Well actually when I first start up I hear a squeal for a few seconds, a couple revs and it goes away, I figured it's just a tensioner pulley that I too have ready to replace. Hmph. The super hard steering, and then the sort of "pop" free allowing it to move again is what scared me most. It was a pop feeling, no sound. I moved the wheel say from 12 to 10, and "pop" it became free and moved the wheels. Crazy.

[racer2086]

Steering system all checks out. Sweating at the lines, but fluid is topped off. I bought a new pump and hoses and washers etc... last year but never got around to doing it because over winter the system performed great! It was only today that it was VERY strange. It usually gets heavy after driving for an hour in the heat, but today was at least TWICE as heavy as usual. VERY strange.

Everything is connected, hoses seem fine, fluid level is topped off, no squealing or anything happening. Well actually when I first start up I hear a squeal for a few seconds, a couple revs and it goes away, I figured it's just a tensioner pulley that I too have ready to replace. Hmph. The super hard steering, and then the sort of "pop" free allowing it to move again is what scared me most. It was a pop feeling, no sound. I moved the wheel say from 12 to 10, and "pop" it became free and moved the wheels. Crazy.

I was contemplating writing a post asking about this.

Lately, I've been having the same problem as you, just not as heavy and no popping. In the morning it feels great and normal. After driving for 30 minutes and getting fully hot, making parking lot maneuvers is hard (SOMETIMES, but it's always after a drive). I need two hands to turn the wheel.

My lines are all relatively new and the fluid is topped up. In fact, I have to look and see if it is too full, because I topped it up a couple months ago. I'm wondering if maybe, when fully hot, the reservoir is too full.

The popping would have me concerned. It could either be the steering linkage binding on something, or maybe one of your steering pump bolts is loosening up. That is an occasional occurrence on these cars. I should check my bolts, too.

I can't find anything wrong with my car. I'll be following this thread.

[Jamos]

I'll check the bolts, thanks!

The two handed parking was last summer for me. Now that it's back. .. I mean it HAS to be a temperature thing!

- - - Updated - - -

Just a thought. .. could a potentially failing belt cause this? As it heats up it stretches?

- - - Updated - - -

I just siphoned all the fluid from the reservoir and replaced it with new. The colour LOOKED muddy and maroon at first, I stuck my finger in and it came out DIFFERENT than brand new fluid, certainly used but I don't know that I'd say it was BAD. Filled it up (a bit too much) and the colour was SIMILAR but more red than before.

Turned it on, squeek squeek as a couple bubbles were in the system and then light as a feather. SUPER light, as if I was on ice! Took it for a 10 minute rip, lots of high rpm, got the engine up to 110°c (never hits over 102 while driving) and FINALLY it started getting stiff again. Not VERY stiff, but noticeably different. I figure if I kept driving it would have gotten stiffer and stiffer again.

Oh well.

Once I get the car up next I'll replace the pump, hoses and reservoir and fluid and that WILL fix it *fingersCrossed

[1fatcat]

How much new fluid were you able to add? That system probably holds at least one quart when completely empty. Maybe if you could get more of the old fluid out and refill with new, that might fix it. I'm just thinking your p/s fluid is just thin and worn out?

[Jamos]

I just got back from 2 hours of driving. Steering stiffened up a bit, but wasn't too bad. Followed the ruts more than usual though. At one point when I was turning on an on-ramp, I noticed the wheel seemed to be turned MORE than usual to make the turn, almost felt like the steering wheel was disconnected. I know when you are going slow you have to move the wheel a lot more than when you're going fast - or vice versa - speed related anyway. It seems perhaps whatever controls THAT is on it's way out?

I syphoned the fluid from the reservoir and there was about half an inch left in there, so I poured however much it took to fill it back up just beyond "full" according to the dip stick.

Again, I have a new pump and hoses etc... but the pump CERTAINLY works as - again - when I start the car it's feather light steering! When I drive and everything heats up and I come back to park, steering is heavy.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean I have a new pump and hoses that I need to INSTALL, but I don't think that's the problem so I haven't done that yet. I haven't done it yet because it's a royal pain in the butt without the right tools and no lift.

[blackknight530i]

I still think it's the servotronic module on the steering box going out.

[Jamos]

Yeah from what I've read it certainly sounds like that's the problem. BUT again it happened all last August and September, and went away completely until just last week. It's 100% heat RELATED, but I just don't get how/where.

[racer2086]

Are the servotronic modules easy to replace? How do you find a replacement? I believe new they are prohibitively expensive.

[1fatcat]

I noticed there is a bulletin for your car pertaining to a VERY similar complaint.
The bulletin states:
"The ball joints in the center tie rod of E38's produced prior to 4/98 may make a groaning or clunking noise when turning the steering, especially in hot weather. The material used in the joints was improved to eliminate this condition during March, 1998.
In case of customer complaint, replace the center tie rod, part number 32 21 1 096 057."

BTW, this bulletin applies to 1995 740i, 1995-1998 740il and 750il, and 1997-1998 740i

[Binjammin]

Why do you put your automatic transmission into neutral when approaching a stop? :confused

[Flying740iL]

Why do you put your automatic transmission into neutral when approaching a stop? :confused

There are people who do it similar to what you'd do with a manual. I only do if there's a high idle hurting my stopping performance, which some cars will do. I've never had that on the E38, though.

[Jamos]

I do it in every car. Slowing a big car makes a lot of heat. Then keeping the brakes held in on spot on the rotors while the rest of the rotor cools!!? Why DON'T you throw it in neutral! ? Shifting down. .. 4..3..2.. let it shift in to 1 then throw up to neutral at about 5kmh and come to a nice rest without the brakes on at all. My brakes always outlast my buddies :) (so do my trannies)

Seriously though I have a high idle 750rpm and it pushes the car. If I let go of the brake it well idle up to 25kmh. No vacuum leaks as per smoke test. So annoying.

As for center link, thanks for showing that, I've never come across that! I'll inspect it soon.

Cheers

[Binjammin]

There are people who do it similar to what you'd do with a manual. I only do if there's a high idle hurting my stopping performance, which some cars will do. I've never had that on the E38, though.

If you have an idle high enough to hurt your stopping performance, you don't have a high idle, you have something broken. I can't even fathom where you guys are coming from on this. :confused

[Jamos]

How can you not? It is a very simple idea, and even simpler to do. When my car idles at 600rpm (when it's over 105°c) it stops very nicely, but it never gets that hot when I'm driving and so it seems to always idle between 700-750 - and I'm just realizing for the first time, that MAYBE there is something programmed somewhere that it is constantly stuck in, "warm up" mode or some crap thus revving higher than it should.

Point is, come to a stop after stopping a big'ol heavy boat, and KEEP the brakes applied!? Best way to ruin your brakes prematurely. So I throw it in neutral and sit there while the rotors cool much more evenly (again N BEFORE stopped, so the rolling frees the pads from the rotor surface.)

Strange that you can't fathom where we're coming from :P

Again in case you didn't catch it in the rev-matching thread from whenever, FAST FORWARD TO 3:04 Binjammin =)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CYKW_K0DEA&list=UU6GbIYIiFv_WQuKPEyAhdwA

Nothing wrong with driving it this way, I have plenty of fun doing this and it doesn't hurt anything. I bought this car because I love the looks, I modified it because I love the sound, and I drive it like this because I love to do it! FATHOM THAT :D

[Binjammin]

Well, I guess it's because the brakes really don't cool down like you're thinking, otherwise every car would have warped rotors from normal abuse. The average stoplight is something like 19 seconds long. Even in a few minutes, there isn't going to be enough heat transfer from the rotors to either the air around it, or the pads, or whatever you're theorizing, to cause any kind of warping. It just doesn't happen. :dunno

[Jamos]

Every friend's or family car that I drive, has crap brakes. They stop HARD and jerk the car. They keep the brakes on at lights. I don't, and my brakes are always great (except for that one seized caliper, but that was 20 years old)

I drive my car hard too, so the brakes do get very hot very often. It's not for everyone as you said, and most people don't even know how brakes work so why WOULD they do that. Most people drive over pot holes and bottom out their cars on curbs, but just because I avoid them both doesn't mean it's useless. Wear and tear is wear and tear, and in the case of hot brakes cooling, putting it in N and coasting to a stop greatly increases cooling. :P You can't possibly deny this honestly?

[Binjammin]

Every friend's or family car that I drive, has crap brakes. They stop HARD and jerk the car. They keep the brakes on at lights. I don't, and my brakes are always great (except for that one seized caliper, but that was 20 years old)

I drive my car hard too, so the brakes do get very hot very often. It's not for everyone as you said, and most people don't even know how brakes work so why WOULD they do that. Most people drive over pot holes and bottom out their cars on curbs, but just because I avoid them both doesn't mean it's useless. Wear and tear is wear and tear, and in the case of hot brakes cooling, putting it in N and coasting to a stop greatly increases cooling. :P You can't possibly deny this honestly?

You'd be surprised, but putting it in neutral versus drive does almost nothing for cooling. The primary cooling area in the rotor is the venting in the middle, and air flowing across those fins. The air flowing across the friction surface will help cool the brakes, but even then, the pads being in contact with the rotor will also conduct heat and help cool the rotor as well. If you're in drive, and on the brakes, then the throttle is closed and there's virtually no power going to the rear wheels, so in reality there's almost no driving load going to the wheels while you're braking.

You're kind of thinking about it wrong, because you're thinking of heat generation as the same thing as cooling. Like... if you were driving the car around, and drove your same route as always, then did the same thing with an extra 1000lbs (or 453.6 kilos) in the car, that extra weight will be more load on your brakes to slow the car down, which will increase the amount of heat generated. The brakes will need to do more work to slow the car down. That doesn't change how much cooling the system has, or the ability to radiate more heat out of the system.

Believe me, there are few people on this earth that drive their cars harder than I do. I used to carry a spare set of pads around just because I'd wear them out so fast, driving in Boston like I did. Never cooked a rotor from coming to a stop like that.

Hell, if anything, you can downshift through the gears and use engine braking, that will put less wear and tear on the brakes, if that's what you're trying to avoid.

[Jamos]

You're lucky I'm busy right now!

BUT all I was referring to was keeping the hot PADS on the rotor, increasing heat vs cooling surface differences on the rotor itself. One spot will cool differently than the other. Not so much QUICKER without brakes applied, but trying to keep it UNIFORM cooling by having the foot off the brake, and by putting in N it rolls to a stop, freeing the pads from the rotor again allowing the rotor a more uniform cooling. And wherever you have these 19 second lights, I wish I was there! All the lights I hit are major intersections and easily 3-4 minutes each.

[Binjammin]

Yeah, like I said, the fins do the vast majority of the cooling. Everything else is incidental. It's not even like "the pads are there, that spot will be cooled differently" because while that is true, you're talking a percentage of a percentage. It's insignificant. Even beating on the car, and coming to a hard stop and holding etc... really won't make a huge difference. We would all be driving cars with warped rotors if that were the case.

[1fatcat]

Jamos, if your brakes are in proper operating condition, then holding them at a stop (even for 20+ minutes and even after a 70 mph to 0 mph stop as fast as possible) will not damage anything....unless you cram on the brakes hard from 100 mph to 0 and then STAND on the brake pedal after the car has stopped. Are you that kind of driver? Do you STAND on the brake pedal when your at a stop?

A properly operating brake system will handle aggressive daily driving...just won't last very long.
A vehicle that encounters aggressive daily down-shifting/engine breaking won't last long...this is more of a race track thing than DD

I know your thinking that the acceleration forces on the transmission are more than the deceleration (engine braking) forces, but they're really not.

Remember, the transmission takes X amount of force to accelerate and the same amount of force to decelerate if your using your trans as a braking system.

So basically, your putting your trans through double stress by using it as a braking system....and brake pads are a lot cheaper than transmissions.

[Jamos]

If I accelerate 0-60 in 7 seconds and then do 60-0 in 15 seconds it is not the same force.


I said I DO need to step on the brake hard to stop the car from rolling. Always have since I got it last year. That's why I put it in neutral. Pads off the rotor allow for more of an even cooling than pads pressed hard against the rotor.

everything I've just said is habit and based in reality.


.....

[shenofjo]

dudes, he can do whatever he wants with his trans and braking. people have their own quirks. this man needs help with his steering and so lets focus on that ok? i am interested in this tie rod groaning issue as my dinan also makes the low groan at times. my dad's 95 steering is just ridiculously heavy compared to mine. we always thought thats what it was and he loves the car for the heavy steering. i wonder if it also has something going on with it. let us know if it gets fixed!

[Jamos]

Next time I'm under the car I'll take extra close look at the steering link and tie rod ends. Another two hours and steering was good at the end. So annoying!