Lowering causes problems?

[Hypr5]

Hey guys, I was told that if i lower my car, its going to eat tires up real fast because the negative camber will be increased. How many of you have had this problem? Are there any "cheaper" camber kits to fix this? I dont need any of these adjustable sets or anything, I just want something that will keep the camber stock while still lowering the car.

Thanks so much!

[myred318i]

My experience was bad. It ate my tires up on the inside edges on the rears.

Besides that, the car handled like total sh!t, and the ride was worse. I bought my car with the lowered setup, and I changed it back to stock springs when the tires went.

The look is nice, but I can't justify the tradeoff of performance for the looks.

My $.02

[MaloventEvil]

My experience was bad. It ate my tires up on the inside edges on the rears.

Besides that, the car handled like total sh!t, and the ride was worse. I bought my car with the lowered setup, and I changed it back to stock springs when the tires went.

The look is nice, but I can't justify the tradeoff of performance for the looks.

My $.02
i havnt had any problems. just make sure to get alignment after you lower the car.

[Mblaster]

You might have some tire issues in front depending on the amount of neg. camber. I'm running 2deg. and have very little issues. The rears shouldn't have a ton of neg. camber so there might be a problem there. Maybe the reason I don't have any probs is because I opted for the Dinan kit. I could have spent less but I was confident in that "package". Do not fear lowering, but make sure the car is lowered as a result of a quality suspension setup. Don't have some hack start chopping at your car just to lower it. :nono

[Hypr5]

Well, all I wanted to do was have the bavauto springs put on... I hear that makes a good comfortable ride while still being lowered, you think that will cause problems?

Thanks so much for the help guys :)

[Mblaster]

That shouldn't be a problem. Though I think you will have to change shocks to use those springs...I think. Then you'll want sways, a camber kit,exhaust,CAI, wheels, etc... :help

[Hypr5]

hehe

so far i have the wheels, chip and intake... and a noisy stock exhaust , which is why im afraid to have a performance exhaust! :eek: (tooo loud)

heres a lil pic:
http://gallery.cybertarp.com/albums/userpics/22894/sidedup.jpg

[JamesM3M5]

My E28 is lowered about 2" front and rear, and no tire wear issues. Same arms on the rear of the E34 as the E28, too, and same rear subframe geometry.

Make sure you don't have bad subframe bushings or bad dogbones. Those are the little double-balljoints that bolt from the subframe to the control arm.

[JamesM3M5]

And I forgot to mention that ride quality is goverened by shocks. Bilstein Sports are notoriously harsh, especially when lowered. Most springs lower the car too much for Bilstein Sports (even though they are for "sport" and lowering springs) and you end up riding on the bumpstops--not comfortable. You can disassemble the front strut inserts and trim the stop. The rear stops are outside of the shock, so those are easy to trim.

[myred318i]

And I forgot to mention that ride quality is goverened by shocks. Bilstein Sports are notoriously harsh, especially when lowered. Most springs lower the car too much for Bilstein Sports (even though they are for "sport" and lowering springs) and you end up riding on the bumpstops--not comfortable. You can disassemble the front strut inserts and trim the stop. The rear stops are outside of the shock, so those are easy to trim.


So I found....

This is exactly what I had. BavAuto springs and Bilstein Sport shocks. Honestly, the ride & handling were very poor. I replaced the springs with stock ones but kept the Bilsteins. The ride is still firm but not harsh, handling is like a totally different car.

Maybe if I had different shocks my experience would've been different. However, I still think I would have had tire wear problems due to the negative camber at the rear. It's not that big of a deal, it's just that your going to replace tires more often. To me, the look of the lowered car doesn't justify more tires.

Again, IMO. :)

[grecobeemer]

I've always wondered this, from hearing good stories and bad. Which shocks would go well with the Bav Auto Springs? For ride comfort and a little stiffness.

[shragon]

no problems here either. my rears wear pretty good too.

just make sure to get an alignment right after it's lowered as aurash said.

bavauto springs tend to be on the soft side. I heard they really use the same spring for all e34's, even though the product number is slightly different (that's why a 540i with bavauo springs is a lot lower than a 525i with bavauto springs). i'd go with eibach or h&r instead with koni shocks.

[Hypr5]

Thanks for the input and advice everybody...

Maybe i won't lower my car now afterall, even though it looks so great on the e34.
I wan't a nice comfortable ride... (I have 124,000mi on original shocks) and i wanted something AT LEAST as good as how it is now, prefereably as nice as it was new though. I was looking into the bavauto springs because they say it keeps the factory ride, but i dont see how the factory ride will be kept if they require a stiff, sport shock! :confused: I just wanted the front fender to come down over the tire a bit more and get a bit better handling, but it seems that this is at the expense of a huge loss of ride quality. :(

Thanks again guys

[Mobius20]

My E34's previous owner lowered it on Jamex springs and Boge shocks. Jamex is not exactly known for high quality, and there's many reports of their springs sagging over time; however it rides wonderfully. Running lowered and on 18s means sharp bumps are noticeable (and sometimes scary if I don't see it coming) - but if you aren't driving in a world of potholes, uneven road gaps, and ruts, this isn't too much of a problem. Even when I have a full load of 5 people in the car, it still rides very well. I've never bottomed out my suspension (or if I did, I haven't felt it).

I have to say, though, that unfortunately I bought this car with the above modifications already done to it, so I can't provide a frame of reference with how it used to ride. If it's any comparison, I have a friend with a newer Mustang lowered about the same amount on H&R springs and some shelf-brand LesSchwab shocks, it rides so rough I thank god the seats provide a good amount of 'ass-suspension'. My roomate's 300ZX on its aging, but completely stock suspension rides stiffer than my car as well.

Now, tire wear. Whoever above me said to get an alignment after you lower it is correct - you should always get an alignment done after you make any change to the suspension, especially a signifigant one like lowering... Except it's not going to help anything in this case. With the exception of the M5, front and rear camber and caster are not adjustable on the E34, and rear toe is fixed as well. The only thing an alignment tech can adjust is front toe-in. Front toe is really not going to change when you lower the car.

That said, I've had my car on alignment rack a couple times recently to track down a vibration I've been experiencing. With the car lowered (1.5", IIRC) the front suspension remains within spec, and the rear does as well. The exception is rear toe-in. This surprised me, because it looked to me like I was running some very excessive camber in the back, but I've discovered it's not much worse than it would be at normal ride height. What DOES change though is rear toe. If you look at the design of the rear suspension, this all starts to make sense. The only way to adjust the toe out of the rear is to remove the trailing arms and press in eccentric bushings - and this I have yet to do because it's rather labor-intensive. BMW historically runs their cars with camber levels that sacrifice tire life for crisp handling, this is nothing new.

Dinan does make a replacement rear subframe that has built-in adjustment for rear camber (and toe, I think) - this would be the ultimate way to get the car back in spec after an alignment. :)

The excessive toe DOES cause some bad tire wear. The rear wheels are always scrubbing the pavement somewhat to try and turn straight. I got ABOUT 20,000miles out of a pair of Sumitomo HTRZ-IIs - and I could've maybe gone further if I had swapped the tires from left to right and worn the other edge of the tires down as well. However, I ran them down into the threads, so this wasn't an option anymore. :)


So.. That was a long post. If there's anything else you have questions about, I'll be more than happy to respond as best I can. I'd like to think I'm pretty familiar with E34 suspension in general at this point. :)

[Hypr5]

Wow, excellent help, everything i was looking for there. 20,000 miles out of a set of tires isnt bad. Did you ever rotate the tires at all? Also what kind of boge shocks were they? Stock replacements or an upgraded version of the boge? Since you say its a pretty good ride, i'd like to try your same set up :)

"The only way to adjust the toe out of the rear is to remove the trailing arms and press in eccentric bushings"

How much do you think a job like that would cost at the dealership?? Hours of labor? cost in parts??

Again, thanks a ton, great help!

~Don

[Mobius20]

Wow, excellent help, everything i was looking for there. 20,000 miles out of a set of tires isnt bad. Did you ever rotate the tires at all? Also what kind of boge shocks were they? Stock replacements or an upgraded version of the boge? Since you say its a pretty good ride, i'd like to try your same set up :) Keep in mind, it was about 20,000 to the point where the inner edge of the tires was threadbare. It was pretty hairy getting around in the rain for the last couple months there. And I'm sorry I can't tell you exactly which shocks they are, because I can't find the invoice in the stack of reciepts from the previous owner. Look for a 'touring' shock instead of a 'sport' shock. Boge pretty much makes the Pro Gas and the Turbo Gas, right? I think one is a 'sport' version and one is a 'touring' version.

And no, I can't rotate tires on my car. I run a staggered setup with directional tires. To mitigate inside edge wear, I have to take the rear tires off the wheels and swap them from side to side (swapping the wheels would reverse the directional tread). I would've done this with my last set of tires, but by the time I noticed the wear, no tire shop would touch me becuase I was "below the legal treadwear limit". Even though I had perfectly good tread on the outside edge of the tires.


"The only way to adjust the toe out of the rear is to remove the trailing arms and press in eccentric bushings"

How much do you think a job like that would cost at the dealership?? Hours of labor? cost in parts??Bavarian Autosport sells eccentric trailing arm bushings for something like $30 each (two for each arm). The bushings are not adjustable on the car, they have to be oriented correctly when they press in. This is a major pain in the ass, and a couple shops I've been to plainly said they didn't want to do it. I don't blame them. As for how much labor.. Wow.. I don't know.. At least a couple hours each side.

Alternatively, you might want to contact Korman (http://www.kormanfastbmw.com) - they have (recently I think) posted the following in the E34 suspension parts section:


Rear Subframe Camber/Toe Assembly

Our eccentrics allow adjustment of rear wheel camber and toe in just a matter of minutes. Enables the restoration of factory specified alignment settings, adjustable for racing. Sold on an exchange basis.

P/N 33203567 (camber or toe only, x 2 for both)This SOUNDS like the same eccentric bushings Bavarian Autosport is selling, but they say they're 'adjustable in a matter of minutes' - which means they're nothing like the bavauto bushings (more like adjustment in four hours)..

And another thing.. Jamex appears to have almost vanished.. You may have problems locating their parts anymore.. :\