Pulling Tranny - what am I missing?

[JitteryJoe]

I removed everything - shifter, driveline, mounting bracket, 9 torx bolts, & 1 shield hex bolt. I'm sure I got all the bolts out (and what a pain to get them all out) I can slide the transmission back about 1/2 inch where it seems to be stuck.
Is there anything special I have to do with the starter? I removed the 2 torx bolts on the transmission side. Does the starter need to be removed or supported?
I'm under the car wiggling the transmission but it does not seem to want to budge. I mention the starter because it looks like it is moving quite a bit.
Am I missing something? I've never done this before so any help is appreciated.
This is my 98 M3 coupe - 5 speed manual.
Thanks.

[pbonsalb]

Is the starter free of the bell housing? There is a dowel pin from the bellhousing into the starter that gets stuck. The angle of removal can also make a difference since the trans input shaft can get stuck in the pilot bearing. It often takes some wiggling to get the trans fully free. Obviously make sure the clutch slave and reverse light switch harness are removed. And the bell housing shield can sometimes get stuck partially on the bell housing side and partially on the engine side.

[JitteryJoe]

Is the starter free of the bell housing? There is a dowel pin from the bellhousing into the starter that gets stuck. The angle of removal can also make a difference since the trans input shaft can get stuck in the pilot bearing. It often takes some wiggling to get the trans fully free. Obviously make sure the clutch slave and reverse light switch harness are removed. And the bell housing shield can sometimes get stuck partially on the bell housing side and partially on the engine side.

Yes, the slave and reverse light are removed. When the tranny is free, what keeps the starter in place? Is there a separate bracket on the engine side? It is really touch to get a good view of the starter. Thank you. I really appreciate the help.

[EE05063]

11 bolts to remove, starters come in two flavors, threaded flange (simply held on with bell housing bolts) or non threaded flange (which require nuts on engine side of flange)

See attached image.



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[shaft9ii]

What Pbonsalb said is what the issue with mine was; there's basically a locator pin on the top at around the 10-11 o clock position that is a pain in the butt; as it gets corroded and sticky. I can't guarantee it's the same on yours, but mine is a 98 convertible, so I'd guess it's the same. Tough to do, but maybe try getting a second set of hands in there to hold the tranny stable while you work your way around and try and get the pin separated.

[pbonsalb]

But I think post 9 is also correct. 10 torx head bolts and 1 10mm hex head that comes from the engine side (by the headers).

[Stephen Max]

The input shaft can get hung on the pilot bearing if you're pulling the transmission back at a slight angle. I couldn't get my transmission out until I dropped the engine subframe a couple of inches, which allowed a straighter rearward pull.

[EE05063]

But I think post 9 is also correct. 10 torx head bolts and 1 10mm hex head that comes from the engine side (by the headers).

Correct. We made the same mistake and didn't have all the bolts completely out when we did it. Had the same issue. Just took counting bolts in hand to be sure all were out. One of the top bolts is a real bear to get to. Took several feet of extension and me with my head up in the driveshaft tunnel just in front of the differential to see it, and that was after taking loose the support brace underneath and letting the engine tilt back as far as it would.

Don't push your starter off the other side while poking around and when reinserting the bolts. We almost did.

[JitteryJoe]

Correct. We made the same mistake and didn't have all the bolts completely out when we did it. Had the same issue. Just took counting bolts in hand to be sure all were out. One of the top bolts is a real bear to get to. Took several feet of extension and me with my head up in the driveshaft tunnel just in front of the differential to see it, and that was after taking loose the support brace underneath and letting the engine tilt back as far as it would.

Don't push your starter off the other side while poking around and when reinserting the bolts. We almost did.

OK. That must be it. I count 9 torx and 1 hex bolt. Let drive back under the car and see.

- - - Updated - - -

I dug up this picture from another thread. I count 10 bolts only including the hex bolt.

478743

[pbonsalb]

As long as you are sure they are all out, however many there are. Just feel up in there all the way around where you cannot see. I have torn out my factory heat shield and replaced it with foil tape, and that really helps access. The starter, at least on later models, does not seem to have any front support. You may want to play it safe and disconnect the battery negative in the trunk so the starter cannot short if it rolls around. It will have several inches of play in all directions once free of the bell housing. Maybe yours is not free yet.

[Mr Estoril]

Starter should stay up there unless you really push it back so I wouldn't worry about that. It will have some play but that is how you know it isn't binding up on the FW or bell housing.
Usually I only need to use this trick for transmission installation but it might help you on the first time removal. Take a block of wood and a floor jack and gently push the front of the engine up. Don't put a lot of weight on it, just until it stops moving. Should be like an inch or so travel (by the way the trans should not be supported by the cross member when you do this, have it supported by a jack). This should really help with the alignment and may allow you to slide the tranny off easier.
Doing that is really helpful for installation though so if you don't use that trick for removal, remember it for installation and it will likely save you a lot of time and frustration.

Another piece of advice, if you get frustrated because you can't get it DO NOT try to pry it off. You might bend a shaft, ruin a bearing/seal, or damage the oil pan.

[ckpitt55]

It was getting hung up on the starter dowel for me.

I jacked the front of the engine up a bit to give me more tunnel to bell housing clearance, pried between the starter flange and bell housing with a screwdriver to get initial separation, and wiggled the transmission around. Pb blaster and patience go a long way with this.

I also tore the heat shield out above the trans. All it does it get soaked in oil / debris, rain foam into your eyes when you're under the car, and get in your way. Will eventually replace with foil.

[stolo17]

jack the front of the engine up a little, helped me slide it out. You kinda just gotta be forceful with it, tap tap with a screw driver wont get it out. Need more like brute force whack whack

You did take disconnect the drive shaft right? :ponder

[NeilM]

A few more tips.

To break the starter nose free, take the long extension rod you were using for the top bolts, position one end on the starter and tap your end with a heavy hammer.

Oh, and a really long extension always works better than ganging a bunch of short ones together, and a 1/2" extension doesn't act like a torsion spring the way a 3/8" does.

To guide the transmission during both removal and reinstallation, buy a couple of hardware store M12 x 1.5 bolts about 3" long. Cut the heads off and make a screwdriver slot in the cut end. Screw them into the appropriate locations on the left and right sides of the bell housing. As you pull the trans off they'll keep it straight and prevent hanging weight on the input shaft. This all goes double for putting it back together.

When initially breaking the trans free, pry simultaneously on both sides to prevent binding.

A cheap Harbor Freight transmission jack is worth its weight in gold for this job.

Neil

[JitteryJoe]

Thanks everyone! I freed it today. I'm not sure what exactly it was hanging up on but I guess I finally got it at the correct angle and worked it a bit harder. It finally popped free.

I fashioned a trans jack with a floor jack and a small 4 wheel dolly strapped to the jack pad with heavy snap ties. Slid the trans right off onto the dolly, lowered it, eased the dolly off the jack, rolled it out the rear end. And that was it. Whew.

Now on to the clutch, bearing, and seal service along with an SSK, and new driveline guibo and center bearing. Thankfully I'm not in a hurry as I have to be the slowest wrench turner around.


478880

[EE05063]

Thanks everyone! I freed it today. I'm not sure what exactly it was hanging up on but I guess I finally got it at the correct angle and worked it a bit harder. It finally popped free.

I fashioned a trans jack with a floor jack and a small 4 wheel dolly strapped to the jack pad with heavy snap ties. Slid the trans right off onto the dolly, lowered it, eased the dolly off the jack, rolled it out the rear end. And that was it. Whew.

Now on to the clutch, bearing, and seal service along with an SSK, and new driveline guibo and center bearing. Thankfully I'm not in a hurry as I have to be the slowest wrench turner around.

<img src="http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=478880"/>

I would try to do the detent job on it while it's out, also front and rear seals.

[Uliman]

I would try to do the detent job on it while it's out, also front and rear seals.

what he said, absolutely! You are there; might as well do it all; detents, especially 5th and reverse can be a bitch but no sense in pulling the tranny later again to do this; lots of good write-ups on here; I may sell my drifts; let me know if interested; my mechanic might want them that why I said "may"; I replaced all seals incl the engine main rear just for piece of mind

[Mr Estoril]

I replaced all seals incl the engine main rear just for piece of mind

I highly recommend NOT replacing the rear main seal unless yours is already leaking. Even if you drive it in perfectly and to the right depth there is still basically a 50% chance it will leak.
Definitely do the detents while the tranny is out. I didn't actually think they were all that bad to do.

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr164/JoeRPoe/New%20%20trans/DSCF1341.jpg

Just try to catch the edge of the sleeve and bend it inward. Then grab it with some needle nose and pull it out. Do your best not to score up the cylinder wall but some picking at the sleeve is to be expected

[Crustashio]

Honestly, don't even worry about the bore for the 5th/reverse detents. If you mark it up, use some fine grit sandpaper to clean it up, then drive the bushing in. Mine was quite difficult and I basically had to pound a screwdriver all the way through then bend it up, sort of like removing an RTAB. But the bushing just sits in the bore so you don't really have to worry about a marred surface like you would a seal.

[Uliman]

Honestly, don't even worry about the bore for the 5th/reverse detents. If you mark it up, use some fine grit sandpaper to clean it up, then drive the bushing in. Mine was quite difficult and I basically had to pound a screwdriver all the way through then bend it up, sort of like removing an RTAB. But the bushing just sits in the bore so you don't really have to worry about a marred surface like you would a seal.

I would tend to agree with that statement with some minor exception. Is it possible that when driving in the bushing that a scar in the bore could change the shape of the bushing which would then tend to bind the piston preventing it from moving up and down in the proper fashion? I had to redo my 5th gear bushing because I did not drive it in straight so it got a bit deformed which cause the piston to bind. The piston needs to move very easily within the bushing otherwise it was improperly installed.

After I did this job, I found out there is actually a tool available to remove these bushings; I believe its called a blind bushing removal tool - no kidding!

[Crustashio]

If you make a "scar", sand it down and you'll be fine. If you leave something protruding (effectively making the bore "smaller") there will probably be fit issues, but having the bore slightly oversize in one spot won't matter. I had a picture of what mine looked like after I got done with it, wasn't pretty at all but I took my time with increasingly fine grits of sandpaper (up to about 800 or 1000 i think) and have had no issues.

And yeah, that bushing removal tool is pretty handy but I wouldn't buy it just to do the trans ones since they are pretty expensive.

[scooper]

bumping this thread...

I'm trying to separate the manual trans bell housing from the block. I've removed all the bolts and there's about a 2" gap now but the threaded starter is still stuck on the dowel. The starter is loose (this is as it should be?) vs. in earlier e36s with a fixed starter via a plate on the block.
I have the front end raised by an HF engine bar and the trans supported by an HF trans jack. I've been pulling for over an hour and it's still stuck. I'm going to try tapping the starter from the rear with a long rod and see if it does the trick. I've loosened the nuts on the motor mounts almost all the way but the nuts are still attached. Should I remove these two nuts?

Should I lower the front subframe a few inches? I think the input shaft is stuck on the pilot bearing and the bell housing is still stuck with the starter. This sucks... Thanks for any advice!

[Crustashio]

First time I did my tranny I had to hammer it out. Don't just tap on it, use a steel sledge to pound the extension.

[JPatrick]

Yes, raise the engine so you get some angle. Mine, I believe, was largely hung up on the tunnel insulation. I did not have to drop the sub frame. After I got the trans out, I could see the insulation tear where the trans was catching.
If you can twist the trans then everything should be pretty much freed up. Then it is largely twist and pull. Just make sure you have something for it to land on (I used a small trans jack from HF).
You can use a large pry bar between the bell housing and engine block but be careful! The aluminum housing is easily damaged.

If you think getting out was a problem, wait until you have to torque the top of trans bolts.

[scooper]

Thanks guys I've done this two times already - once for a s50 manual and another for a m52 auto. Auto complicates things a little but neither has given me as much of a fight as this current s50 manual. I am using a HF engine bar this time vs. an engine hoist. I might go back to using that..

[flyfishvt]

bumping this thread... I'm trying to separate the manual trans bell housing from the block. I've removed all the bolts and there's about a 2" gap now but the threaded starter is still stuck on the dowel. The starter is loose (this is as it should be?) vs. in earlier e36s with a fixed starter via a plate on the block. I have the front end raised by an HF engine bar and the trans supported by an HF trans jack. I've been pulling for over an hour and it's still stuck. I'm going to try tapping the starter from the rear with a long rod and see if it does the trick. I've loosened the nuts on the motor mounts almost all the way but the nuts are still attached. Should I remove these two nuts? Should I lower the front subframe a few inches? I think the input shaft is stuck on the pilot bearing and the bell housing is still stuck with the starter. This sucks... Thanks for any advice!

At this point the starter should not be attached to the bell housing. That dowel pin gets rusted and seized. Use a small pry bar to gently separate the starter from the bell housing.

DO NOT remove those nuts from the motor mounts. Trust me on this one. It's not necessary to loosen them at all unless you are replacing them. Removing them will allow the engine to lift off of them. It's fairly easy to get one of them back on if it pulls off but getting 2 back on in this particular situation can be a 4 beer ball buster

I've never used a engine bar when removing the tranny. There is no need to support the engine that way. Everyone that does this job uses a jack under the oil pan to lift the front of the engine and tilt the entire engine/tranny so it can clear the tranny tunnel insulation

If you have an honest 2" between the block and bell housing you are free of the pilot bearing.

So your problem appears to be the starter. Get that separated and it should pull right out. Just keep in mind that the crank shaft and the tyranny input shaft have to remain parallel as you pull back on the tranny or the tranny input shaft will bind up as it passes through the clutch.

You've done this before....breath deep and try again

[scooper]

thanks for your advice flyfish...I'm going to give it another shot this week. I was thinking of removing the intake mani to have better access at the starter space. I've used a larger pry bar but I haven't had much success. A smaller pry bar would definitely be better but it can't reach that spot. Some of my housing bolts were a little corroded and one of the smaller ones actually snapped off. I need to remove the remnant too. Bought a nut and a m8x50 bolt to try and push it out.

[Ex36]

Also remember that one weird little bolt on the dust shield that points the other way!

[scooper]

yup thanks I already removed that! now if I can only separate the damn starter... I'm going to hit it from the rear. Plan B will be to remove the intake (plan on replacing the sensors anyways).

[scooper]

Was able to separate the trans housing from the block using a few pry bars, tapping the starter from the rear, using the trans jack to raise n lower the angle, and a lot of jiggling. Thanks guys! Now for some drift pin replacement among other clutch related parts...

[NeilM]

Was able to separate the trans housing from the block using a few pry bars, tapping the starter from the rear, using the trans jack to raise n lower the angle, and a lot of jiggling. Thanks guys! Now for some drift pin replacement among other clutch related parts...

It's hard to keep the trans aligned with the engine for smooth removal, and even trickier for reassembly. Get a couple of hardware store M12 bolts, about 3" long. Cut the heads off and Dremel a screwdriver slot in the cut end. Thread them into the engine block on each side in place of the original trans bolts. They'll act as guide pins for separation and reassembly.

To unstick the starter nose, use the same long extension rod as for the upper trans bolts. Pass it over the trans and position against the starter, then give it a good whack with a hammer.

Neil

[scooper]

thanks! I'm replacing a bunch of parts. If the rear main seal is not leaking at 160k should I replace it? I did buy a replacement already.

[jayjaya29]

thanks! I'm replacing a bunch of parts. If the rear main seal is not leaking at 160k should I replace it? I did buy a replacement already.

I did my clutch at around the same mileage, seal wasn't leaking so I left it alone. I've seen in various places to not replace it unless its leaking.

[JitteryJoe]

thanks! I'm replacing a bunch of parts. If the rear main seal is not leaking at 160k should I replace it? I did buy a replacement already.

I replaced it. I removed the carrier to do it which I found easier particularly if you have not done it before. You then, of course, have to replace the carrier gasket as well.
Worth it? Don't know. One of those things where it is hard to determine if you risk doing more harm than good. I just made sure I did the job right so I, hopefully, did more good ...

[ThreeD]

thanks! I'm replacing a bunch of parts. If the rear main seal is not leaking at 160k should I replace it? I did buy a replacement already.

I really haven't had a problem with replacing rear main seals...it's pretty easy to install without removing the carrier. I don't remember how I removed it, I think I drilled some holes in it then drove screws into it, then pulled out the screws. Or I may have just bent the edge with a pick / small screwdriver. For install, drive it in straight with a block of wood working evenly around the sides, then use the old seal to drive it in just a little more. I've had no problems with the n of 2 that I've done :D

[scooper]

Did you guys put any sealant around the seal or just some engine oil?

[dohcdoh]

Did you guys put any sealant around the seal or just some engine oil?

Engine oil only coats the part of the seal that touches the crank. No sealant anywhere.

[JitteryJoe]

Pelican has a good DIY on this. They use some sealant (Curil T) on the rubber seal.

[flyfishvt]

Yes you should replace the rear main seal. When you take it out you'll see how hard and brittle it's become.

No you don't use sealant. Never. Yes you put some engine oil on the inner surface

Personally I would ALWAYS remove the carrier when doing this. There is tons of dirt and grime and varnish that builds up over the years. They all create a very poor sealing surface. It's next to impossible to get that area 100% clean without removing it. How much time are you really saving? Just like the throw out bearing.....you only want to remove the tranny once.

That starter dowel pin is only used to assist in assembly. You could safely sand it down quite a bit and put some anti seize on it so it doesn't stick in the future.