Anyone tried Dinan Stage 2 v. TCK SA 300/400?

[JJJames]

Yes, I know this topic has been beaten to death, but I'm curious as to whether anyone has tried both of these set ups, and could provide some advice. I've read a lot on the various coilover options out there, and I think I've arrived at the conclusion that the TCK SA system with 300f/400r springs would suit my requirements just fine. I'd end up leaving the sway bars stock though just due to cost (unless I'm missing something and that doesn't make sense).

The other option I'm tempted by simply for convenience is to just buy the Dinan Stage 2 set up with the anti-roll bars, etc. Does the Dinan kit just use Koni products that can be sourced elsewhere, or are they different?

Maybe another way to look at this is: how would switching to coilovers feel as compared to switching to upgraded shocks/struts/springs as well as anti-roll bars?

Looking for a good street set-up that which will provide better feel, quicker turn-in, and far less roll than stock.

I'm not an expert in the naunces of various suspension set-ups, I don't do auto-x, don't thrash my car, don't want an aggressive drop (and don't care if I drop it at all) and have no immediate plans for the track given its rarity (though who knows how long that thinking will last..). All that being said, I'm not happy with the stock set-up, and its annoyingly noticable on the back roads. It rolls too much, and steering input is vague.

Thanks all

[CMG]

Apples and oranges

[JJJames]

Apples and oranges

Fair enough...perhaps a little more on why? They are both popular suspension set-ups...there must be a reason to prefer one over the other (not that either is better..just different)

[CMG]

They are both good for what they are. To make it easy if ur car is a DD get Dinan if a track car get TC Kline

[E36 Em Tree]

I went with PSS9s, often compared with TCK SA. I love the set up and adjustable dampening levels rather than just a non adjustable spring/strut set up like the konis. It comes with progressive springs, great for the street. Very minimal body roll and I'm sure with sway bars would be even more dramatically changed but like you implied.. cost more money.

Coilovers were honestly the best upgrade I did to my car. Lowered and stiffer. Night and day difference in performance and looks.

Get some used sways off the classifieds if you have extra. Also look for vendor deals in the vendors section. Scored the pss9s for 1400.. which is 200-400 less than online retail spots like turner and them.

[Eric98Sedan]

Okay, I'll bite.

If we exclude the adjustable ride height feature of a coiilover (which by itself has no affect on performance, feel, etc), we're left with a set of dampers that control a set of springs. This means that the only attributes that have any affect on "handling" are the valving difference between dampers and spring rate differences.

Both setups you mention are Koni-based, both setups use linear rate springs. Yes - the Dinan's are linear as per Vorshlag's spring rate testing chart on their site with 125/425 rates.

I have not used the Dinan setup (although I'd love to try it) but I am currently running an almost identcial setup - Konis, OE Sports and Eibach sways. I've also used the TCK 300/400 and would say that the overall perormance and feel are almost identical with the latter being slightly less comfortable. Neither setup will affect roll to any great extent, although both are considerably more "sporty" than stock.

[JJJames]

Okay, I'll bite.

If we exclude the adjustable ride height feature of a coiilover (which by itself has no affect on performance, feel, etc), we're left with a set of dampers that control a set of springs. This means that the only attributes that have any affect on "handling" are the valving difference between dampers and spring rate differences.

Both setups you mention are Koni-based, both setups use linear rate springs. Yes - the Dinan's are linear as per Vorshlag's spring rate testing chart on their site with 125/425 rates.

I have not used the Dinan setup (although I'd love to try it) but I am currently running an almost identcial setup - Konis, OE Sports and Eibach sways. I've also used the TCK 300/400 and would say that the overall perormance and feel are almost identical with the latter being slightly less comfortable. Neither setup will affect roll to any great extent, although both are considerably more "sporty" than stock.

Excellent, thanks a lot. I was hoping one of you guys who have been so active on that GC v. PSS9 thread would comment. On the roll issue, do you mean that there would be minimal difference between the two (i.e. Dinan v. TC Kline), or not much difference between either of them vs. stock? Also, any idea what sways the Dinan kit uses?

[Eric98Sedan]

Excellent, thanks a lot. I was hoping one of you guys who have been so active on that GC v. PSS9 thread would comment. On the roll issue, do you mean that there would be minimal difference between the two (i.e. Dinan v. TC Kline), or not much difference between either of them vs. stock? Also, any idea what sways the Dinan kit uses?

The TCK setup would roll slightly less due to the stiffer front springs, but neither kit will be dramtically different than stock because both are relatively soft. Yes, there will be a notable difference, but not the "racecar flat" cornering you get only with ultra stiff springs/dampers. Don't know about the Dinan sways - they seem to use proprietary diameters for both bars.

I will say, though, that for your described needs either kit should be very nice.

[scooper]

I haven't tracked on the dinan suspension but it's great on the street. I haven't ridden in a tck 300/400 set-up so I can't comment. The valving for the konis are matched for stiffer Dinan springs. The biggest difference is height adjustability or lack thereof. The drop is about an inch which is optimal for the streets. If you're going to track the car get the tck's else go with dinan. I may have a set of dinan sways for sale.

You can't go wrong with either option. The Pss9s I've read are great for the track especially if you install linear springs. The ride will be much firmer than koni-based dampers. Ride comfort also depends on tire pressure.

I have experience with bilstein/stock/hr sport springs, koni/hr OE sports, koni/dinan, and AST4200s (which will be for sale shortly).

Lastly, if and when I start going to the track, I'm going to get a track chassis (not so nice 325, 328, m3) with track-oriented suspension.

[jvit27]

Apples and oranges

Disagree. As Eric pointed out, they are largely similar kits using linear springs and Konis. (Although the front spring is ~100# and not 125#). So basically TCK will be stiffer in the front, whereas Dinan will be slightly stiffer in the rear.

There are some people who theorize that a lot of 'ride comfort' is dependent on how stiff the rear is since the second bounce over bumps is what the driver will feel more. Both kits are among the best street setups though. For the price, you get more adjustability with the TCK's though since the height is not fixed and they have external rebound adjustment on the rear.

[camdinans3]

I agree with the above.

I've had the full DINAN suspension and while it rode well...if i were you i would skip the swaybars. They actually are less stiff than the factory e36 m3 bars.

But it really is basically konis, ebiach springs and a fixed camber plate, so realistically you could put it together yourself for less.

[CMG]

I know the dinan bars are smaller in front than stock but i dunno if they're less stiff. I have no complaints with them at all for DD, my car is pretty darn neutral maybe leaning towards oversteer if anything. For track i'm sure there's better options

[camdinans3]

I know the dinan bars are smaller in front than stock but i dunno if they're less stiff. I have no complaints with them at all for DD, my car is pretty darn neutral maybe leaning towards oversteer if anything. For track i'm sure there's better options

http://www.vorshlag.com/bars.php

just saying. they are a good choice for a DD but in reality they almost dial in more understeer than anything, from what I have experienced and what i have read. I don't see how a swaybar would be more stiff when being smaller in diameter considering they have the same exact mounting locations and end links.

[Eric98Sedan]

Well, you have material stiffness, wall thickness and lever arm length. These will all affect the "stiffness" of the bar. Furthermore, the Dinan setup has a very large front/rear spring rate delta, unlike virtually all other setups, which would certainly change the swaybar requirements. Interestingly, TRM (and BMW) both believe in a large delta.

I guess what I'm saying is that we can't just compare the diameter of the swaybars without looking at the entire package.

[camdinans3]

Well, you have material stiffness, wall thickness and lever arm length. These will all affect the "stiffness" of the bar. Furthermore, the Dinan setup has a very large front/rear spring rate delta, unlike virtually all other setups, which would certainly change the swaybar requirements. Interestingly, TRM (and BMW) both believe in a large delta.

I guess what I'm saying is that we can't just compare the diameter of the swaybars without looking at the entire package.

i agree. I have owned the ENTIRE dinan suspension, i basically had every piece they make on my car at one point (i've since sold the shocks/springs/camber plates/sway bars). I've also held at the same time OEM bars and H&R bars.

There is a table somewhere that shows more data than the one i linked, i'll look around for it.

This isn't to say it isn't a good DD package because it absolutely is, but for me i didnt like the ride height and understeer at autox so i switched it.

[controller]

I run the Dinan strut/spring combo with Vorshlag plates and H&R front bar. Handling is easy to setup and very neutral. It's very streetable except for big bumps in the road at speed because of the plates. Otherwise it's a great combo. I only run it because I got the setup for cheap. No rear bar is needed and many guys that track either don't upgrade the rear bar or they leave it off completely. Also if you don't do the rear bar, no need to reinforce the mounting points.

I would probably prefer the TCK kit because I track a few times a year, but as I said I got this setup for cheap.

[D. Hitchcock]

If you don't track or autoX the car, then don't bother with ride-height adjustability, etc. In fact, don't even bother with shock adjustability.

Go with Bilsteins and H&Rs. Sports if you put high value on ride comfort. Races if you put more value on performance.

BTW, the Dinan spring rates quoted ITT are ... weird, given my e36 experience. Seems way too soft in front to be balanced with those high rear rates, unless there's something going on with swaybars to keep the car from being too tail happy.

FWIW, I have tck D/A setup for autoX purposes. 500/600 spring rates, big bars front (H&R-Turner) and rear (Ground Control). I daily the car ...

[Level8drummer]

Maybe another way to look at this is: how would switching to coilovers feel as compared to switching to upgraded shocks/struts/springs as well as anti-roll bars?

Looking for a good street set-up that which will provide better feel, quicker turn-in, and far less roll than stock.

Coilovers are nothing but height adjustable spring / damper packages, where (sometimes) you choose spring rates and (sometimes) the dampers are adjustable.

Sway bars can still be useful, coilovers or not.

I may recommend the Bilstein pss or pss9 system.

L8d

[jvit27]

If you don't track or autoX the car, then don't bother with ride-height adjustability, etc. In fact, don't even bother with shock adjustability.

Go with Bilsteins and H&Rs. Sports if you put high value on ride comfort. Races if you put more value on performance.

BTW, the Dinan spring rates quoted ITT are ... weird, given my e36 experience. Seems way too soft in front to be balanced with those high rear rates, unless there's something going on with swaybars to keep the car from being too tail happy.

FWIW, I have tck D/A setup for autoX purposes. 500/600 spring rates, big bars front (H&R-Turner) and rear (Ground Control). I daily the car ...

I almost want to ask you to take your post down it's so misinforming. http://www.nflfever2.com/nflfever/Smileys/default/facepalm.gif

If you don't want to get the height you want or be able to fine tune it, why run anything other than stock? Save your money if that's the case. Saying "dont bother with coilovers on the street" would be ok if there were actually a PROPER spring/shock combo available but to date no such thing exists.

Your recommendation of Bilstein/H&R's is the opposite of what we are trying to accomplish. It is not a comfortable setup, and Bilstein sport shocks are well documented as being quite harsh on the street (I currently have the B12 kit on my car which uses them with even softer springs..) My TCK SA 300/400 was noticeably better on the street than the Bilstein/H&R sports I used to have. My old Dinan suspension was a great package but lacked the ideal drop.

Dinan spring rates are unique. They seem to have less front bar and more rear spring, likely to create better rotation. The F/R delta is actually more in line with the OEM springs than most other aftermarket kits and that seems to compliment their general philosophy.

[Level8drummer]

Sorry jvit, but I agree with Hitchcock's post. There is definitely a place for shock spring combos out there. And there are some good ones...specifically the ones you don't like. The spring you pick gets you the height you want. Also you can change out oe spring pads to fine tune the height. There is something to be said for a setup that is plug and play repeatable. Why do you think spece30 and spec miata use set springs and Bilsteins? It does make there one less thing to shake loose.

Also "quite harsh" is hardly documentable, being such an unsubstantiated opinion. I know people who love that setup.

L8d

[jvit27]

Sorry jvit, but I agree with Hitchcock's post. There is definitely a place for shock spring combos out there. And there are some good ones...specifically the ones you don't like. The spring you pick gets you the height you want. Also you can change out oe spring pads to fine tune the height. There is something to be said for a setup that is plug and play repeatable. Why do you think spece30 and spec miata use set springs and Bilsteins? It does make there one less thing to shake loose.

Also "quite harsh" is hardly documentable, being such an unsubstantiated opinion. I know people who love that setup.

L8d

Sure there is a place but I am addressing E36 M3's specifically. It's a cheap way to change the suspension, but with the savings comes larger compromises.

The main problem is no one sells a properly shortened strut for use with stock-style springs. Koni uses inserts into stock housings and Bilstein dampers actually raise the front .25", both of which take away compression travel when used with lowering springs..

If a company made a truly matched spring/shock combo that lowered the car while maintaining good travel I would be all over it like white on rice! Unfortunately, such a setup does not exist and thus we must turn to coilovers...

"Hardly documentable"? Search... i'm not the only one who says they are harsh, but while I know you enjoy discrediting my experience, I have owned three sets of Bilstein sports and BOTH of my E36 M3's sitting in the driveway are fitted with them right now. They are built for speed, not comfort.

[propcar]

I was intrigued at the guy who used the Z4 OEM struts on his E36 and converted them to coilover?

Makes me think if you order Z4 front Bilsteins... they'll be quite shorter and possibly ride better?

I haven't seen anybody try that...

[Eric98Sedan]

They are built for speed, not comfort.

Well played. Totally agree.

The Bilstein Sports are, IMO, race struts that can be used on the street. Pretty much everything that falls into that category reduces comfort to a large degree. Not only is this well documented, it's basic common sense.

Everyone knows that sleeping on a hardwood floor is uncomfortable. We should just leave it at that.

[propcar]

Well played. Totally agree.

The Bilstein Sports are, IMO, race struts that can be used on the street. Pretty much everything that falls into that category reduces comfort to a large degree. Not only is this well documented, it's basic common sense.

Everyone knows that sleeping on a hardwood floor is uncomfortable. We should just leave it at that.

But you slide faster on it than carpet! :D

I think I've read somewhere that using Vogtgland Clubsport springs with the Bilsteins feel better than most other springs... possibly due to their stiffer rates limiting the travel range and keeping the Bilsteins off the bumpstops?

[JJJames]

I was intrigued at the guy who used the Z4 OEM struts on his E36 and converted them to coilover?

Makes me think if you order Z4 front Bilsteins... they'll be quite shorter and possibly ride better?

I haven't seen anybody try that...

Same here - would love to hear more on this

[Joekart]

Completely out of left field, I have the AST 4100 single adjustable coil overs. 550 front 650 rear springs. TMS front and rear bars. Vorshlag camber plates. I kinda like the car as I bought it. I corner balanced and aligned the car to a more street able setting -2.5 F camber 0 toe and -2 rear camber 1/16 toe in. Haven't AXed it yet but it certainly turns in nicely and rides well um STIFF.

My old Porsche 928 had Bilstien Sports on double the stock spring rates and it drove awesome. and was even better the faster it went. 80 MPH was perfect. :)

[Eric98Sedan]

Completely out of left field, I have the AST 4100 single adjustable coil overs. 550 front 650 rear springs. TMS front and rear bars. Vorshlag camber plates. I kinda like the car as I bought it. I corner balanced and aligned the car to a more street able setting -2.5 F camber 0 toe and -2 rear camber 1/16 toe in. Haven't AXed it yet but it certainly turns in nicely and rides well um STIFF.

My old Porsche 928 had Bilstien Sports on double the stock spring rates and it drove awesome. and was even better the faster it went. 80 MPH was perfect. :)

Yep, sounds awful for street use. Not at all what the OP is looking for.

[JJJames]

Yep, sounds awful for street use. Not at all what the OP is looking for.

Bingo - sounds like that would rattle my car to pieces..

[Level8drummer]

Bingo - sounds like that would rattle my car to pieces..

Not necessarily, high spring rates do not directly equate to a poor ride.

Level8Drummer

[Joekart]

Agreed, Car is firm but not "that bad" If I were to choose livable street only springs I think 350 front 400 or 450 rear would be it.

Crappy shocks affect ride comfort much more.

[Eric98Sedan]

Crappy shocks affect ride comfort much more.

Very true!

[Joekart]

AST used to be Moton. Moton were magic shocks. Even my single adjustable shocks are pretty spiffy.

[jvit27]

AST used to be Moton. Moton were magic shocks. Even my single adjustable shocks are pretty spiffy.

Umm not quite. AST only bought Moton last year.

And there's no such thing as a 4011..?

[ThreeD]

Umm not quite. AST only bought Moton last year.

And there's no such thing as a 4011..?

This.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

[Joekart]

Typo 4100 Lesson is I should not post while drinking.