Helpful E36 Tire/Wheel Buying Guide

[mountain man]

Click the link below for the spreadsheet I put together.

At the moment I'm trying to find the best wheel/tire combo for my M3. I'd like to be able to drive it to work occasionally and also do a few HPDEs a year without too many compromises from my choice of tire. This setup is for an M3 putting down 275whp, so I'm looking for as much grip as I can get, and I'd like to encourage more neutral handling with a square setup.

Here is what I came up with, and notice the tire weights as well... Surprisingly the 18x9" D-Force LTW5 with Michelin PSS is the 2nd lightest setup.

This is for a 255/40-17 or 255/35-18 square setup. All weight savings are compared to the stock DSII staggered setup.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApdabybdMOvQdDQzOXo3SGc1SFFlTlBCNXVxZi0yS Gc

[slocar]

Good chart except I'm lost as to why you have a 7.5 inch DS2 listed. A 255 on a 7.5 inch isn't going to be worth a damn; might wanna list a 8.5 inch version (22.9 lbs)

[MatthewH]

The forged "Motorsport" 17x8.5" DSIs are 21.1lbs--the cast version is 20.9lbs. The cast DSIIs in that size are 22.9 lbs. The 2-piece M cross-spokes are 20.3lbs. The cheapest 17x8.5s I have found are used AT Italia Style 5s (M Contour reps), but they are heavy. Real M Contour 17x8.5s are 23.5lbs.

I would add the Continental Extreme Contact DW to your tire list--a bit more reliable cold/wet tire than the PSS, and it is certainly cheaper. I am not convinced that 255s are better than 245s (or even 235s) on the 9" rims, definitely not on the 8.5" rims. Unless they are R-compounds designed to be stuffed on a narrower rim. The Star Specs are known for their heavy sidewalls, so their weight isn't surprising. If you are going to put any of these on a narrower rim those would be ones to pick. For comparison the 255/45R17 DW's are only 23lbs. Also not surprising that the PSS is a bit on the lighter side. These tires are going to ride much nicer than the more aggressive dry tires. I wouldn't recommend the RS-3s (or Kumho XSes) for street use. The RE-11s and Star Specs are passable for street use. 245/45R16 RE-11s on 16x9.5 OZ Vegas (16lbs) would be an interesting alternative.

I ran cheap 215/45R17 Sumitomos HTR Z IIIs on 17x7.5s as my summer street tires this year. Quite nice dry grip for the price, but a little lacking in the wet. I also killed them in just a few months, but it was mainly my negligence. The inside edges of both front tires are showing cords. At least I didn't ruin a much more expensive set of tires (I considered the PSS, DW, and Star Specs in the same size.)

[mountain man]

Good chart except I'm lost as to why you have a 7.5 inch DS2 listed. A 255 on a 7.5 inch isn't going to be worth a damn; might wanna list a 8.5 inch version (22.9 lbs)

I should have clarified I'm not going to run 255s on the stock wheel. Every other was a reference to the weight savings from stock. So trying to see what I was saving over the stock setup. Sounds like I should consider an average savings for all 4 corners since its staggered.


The forged "Motorsport" 17x8.5" DSIs are 21.1lbs--the cast version is 20.9lbs. The cast DSIIs in that size are 22.9 lbs. The 2-piece M cross-spokes are 20.3lbs. The cheapest 17x8.5s I have found are used AT Italia Style 5s (M Contour reps), but they are heavy. Real M Contour 17x8.5s are 23.5lbs.

I would add the Continental Extreme Contact DW to your tire list--a bit more reliable cold/wet tire than the PSS, and it is certainly cheaper. I am not convinced that 255s are better than 245s (or even 235s) on the 9" rims, definitely not on the 8.5" rims. Unless they are R-compounds designed to be stuffed on a narrower rim. The Star Specs are known for their heavy sidewalls, so their weight isn't surprising. If you are going to put any of these on a narrower rim those would be ones to pick. For comparison the 255/45R17 DW's are only 23lbs. Also not surprising that the PSS is a bit on the lighter side. These tires are going to ride much nicer than the more aggressive dry tires. I wouldn't recommend the RS-3s (or Kumho XSes) for street use. The RE-11s and Star Specs are passable for street use. 245/45R16 RE-11s on 16x9.5 OZ Vegas (16lbs) would be an interesting alternative.

I ran cheap 215/45R17 Sumitomos HTR Z IIIs on 17x7.5s as my summer street tires this year. Quite nice dry grip for the price, but a little lacking in the wet. I also killed them in just a few months, but it was mainly my negligence. The inside edges of both front tires are showing cords. At least I didn't ruin a much more expensive set of tires (I considered the PSS, DW, and Star Specs in the same size.)

I will update the wheel weight to an average between f/r. As I stated above I needed to say that I was just comparing weight savings from the stock setup.

As for 255 on the 9" wheel, this setup will be for a 375whp M3, so I'm trying to maximize traction with a wide and sticky tire. I did have the Conti DWs on my Mini Coop S and liked them. I'll add them to the list, didn't know they were in the same league.

Have you guys daily driven any of these tires? Only thing that really gets to me about my current tires (BFG KDWs) is noise... They really growl at low speeds and howl at highway speeds.

Thanks for the input guys!

[MatthewH]

Max Performance:
+better wet/cold grip
+softer/quieter ride

Extreme Performance:
+better hot/dry grip
+more responsive

Not every tire in those categories perfectly matches those.

So my personal experience

Max: HTRZ3 - dry grip biased, smooth/quiet ride, cheap, chunk, wear bad
Extreme: XS - very dry grip biased, smooth/quiet ride, wear great, very high grip but unforgiving (narrow happy place)

I was really surprised by the performance of the XSes. I generally autocross on V710s, but I've had Falken RT-615s and Hankook R-S2s too. The XSes ultimate grip feels equal to the V710s, except one really hot day with 2 drivers the fronts overheated and lost a ton of grip. These were 225/50R16 XSes on 16x8 rims on the front. The HTRZ3s have done great the few times I've run them around a course. The last event was 38*F, so they don't seem to mind the cold too much, though they aren't great on the street at that temp. They do chunk and wear fast.

Second hand:
Extreme: R1R - poor ride, decent wet, highest dry grip, poorest wear
Extreme: RS-3 - moderate ride, poor wet, bad cold, high dry grip, wear good.
Extreme: Star Spec - worst ride, tolerates cold/wet, wear great, very forgiving (widest happy place?)
Extreme: RE11 - moderate ride, tolerates wet, less dry grip than Star Specs, $$$
Max: PSS - quiet, great wet (but harder to drive than DWs), good dry grip, good wear, $$$
Max: DW - quiet/smooth, excellent wet/cold, lower dry grip

Star Spec compound = RT-615K compound -- the later are quieter, but not as good in cold/wet

Softer sidewalls (Max) are also better for acceleration/braking.

Have you considered a dedicated set of tires? Used V710s can be found cheaply and blow all of these out of the water on a track. They even last pretty long. The RS-3s (and XSes) are the best of these for track use, but I wouldn't daily drive either.

[mountain man]

Max Performance:
+better wet/cold grip
+softer/quieter ride

Extreme Performance:
+better hot/dry grip
+more responsive

Not every tire in those categories perfectly matches those.

So my personal experience

Max: HTRZ3 - dry grip biased, smooth/quiet ride, cheap, chunk, wear bad
Extreme: XS - very dry grip biased, smooth/quiet ride, wear great, very high grip but unforgiving (narrow happy place)

I was really surprised by the performance of the XSes. I generally autocross on V710s, but I've had Falken RT-615s and Hankook R-S2s too. The XSes ultimate grip feels equal to the V710s, except one really hot day with 2 drivers the fronts overheated and lost a ton of grip. These were 225/50R16 XSes on 16x8 rims on the front. The HTRZ3s have done great the few times I've run them around a course. The last event was 38*F, so they don't seem to mind the cold too much, though they aren't great on the street at that temp. They do chunk and wear fast.

Second hand:
Extreme: R1R - poor ride, decent wet, highest dry grip, poorest wear
Extreme: RS-3 - moderate ride, poor wet, bad cold, high dry grip, wear good.
Extreme: Star Spec - worst ride, tolerates cold/wet, wear great, very forgiving (widest happy place?)
Extreme: RE11 - moderate ride, tolerates wet, less dry grip than Star Specs, $$$
Max: PSS - quiet, great wet (but harder to drive than DWs), good dry grip, good wear, $$$
Max: DW - quiet/smooth, excellent wet/cold, lower dry grip

Star Spec compound = RT-615K compound -- the later are quieter, but not as good in cold/wet

Softer sidewalls (Max) are also better for acceleration/braking.

Have you considered a dedicated set of tires? Used V710s can be found cheaply and blow all of these out of the water on a track. They even last pretty long. The RS-3s (and XSes) are the best of these for track use, but I wouldn't daily drive either.

The dedicated set is an option. This is for a car I'm picking up next month. It has a staggered set of DSII's with Michelin Pilot All Seasons. I could get a dedicated set of DS3's or RE11's for track and occasional daily use and just let the all seasons wear out. Then replace the all seasons with DW's or something as conservative.

How many track days did you get out of the XS's? I'm a little averse to slicks as I'm fairly new to track weekends (4 so far), and running stock brakes and a mostly stock suspension.

Thanks

[MatthewH]

I got my used XSes free. They were pretty worn when I got them, which is another reason I haven't used them on the street (picture below of their initial state.)

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/543265_2108311762761_1069301406_n.jpg

16x8s in front 16x7.5s in back. The additional grip from the extra half an inch of wheel width was definitely noticeable. FWIW: 225/50R16s are nearly as wide as 245/40R17s.

The fronts are nearly bald now (~4 autocross events). I couldn't really speculate how long new ones would last. They might last longer shaved, though chucking doesn't seem to be a problem. I was surprised how much I like the XSes but would still recommend the RS-3s over them. The RS-3 is reportedly a slightly better behaved tire.

The XS came in a 265/45R16 which would have been interesting, but it seems like that size has been discontinued.