FI so expensive for the bmw

[denverlicious]

i used to be a ricer and turbos were quite cheap. i could get a turbo that would give me 300-400 hp easy for about 3500. how come for the M3 a turbo from AA is about 11000? kinda pricey dont you think? if i wanted good FI for my car that has good performance but not as expensive what should i go?

[Bassmaster]

Very expensive.
Check with EMC he's working on a custom production kit for less.
M3= Multiply $$'s x 3

[denverlicious]

haha yes i can tell that's what the M3 stands for. you know thx for that quote. imma put that in my sig. cause i think tha'ts exactly what the M3 stands for.

[Makr]

Originally posted by Bassmaster
Very expensive.
Check with EMC he's working on a custom production kit for less.
M3= Multiply $$'s x 3

We can't all be crazy, there is a reason we like them.:wave:

[RRdawho?]

AA generally is very expensive. But just wait....i've a few people have been keeping the downlow on stuff.....:devillook

[323I Junkie]

There are a couple of companies working on some kits right now.
However, there are a couple of things that drive up turbo price on BMW.
Crowded underhood space.
Finicky, Finicky customers.
Low purchasing rates (you might sell 50 a year, maybe)

Incredibly expensive R&D

And as far a s"ricer turbos"...Ive never seen a 400 horse honda at our dyno here...some supras and RX-8's, but , well duh on those.


tell me about a 3500 dollar turbo on fwd that makes 400...ive heard awd eclipses can do that, but im not sure

[darien28]

it's all in the R&D....

you can RD yourself if you know how to weld... if you do most of the research yourself, you'll find that all you really need is a turbo, IC, and header or some way to mount the turbo. then all you have to do is adjust the fuel system to compensate, and run a few oil/water lines and intake piping.

it's really quite simple but unless you know what you're doing... you gotta pay $$$$ for someone else to R&D for you.

honda kits are simple becasue anyone and their mother can make a header for it... that's the most expensive part due to R&D... BMW's are so minited on their space, and an inline 6 is much harder to make a header for than an I-4. have you looked at all the space a civic has under the hood compared to a 3-series?...

[techno550]

Originally posted by darien28
it's all in the R&D....

you can RD yourself if you know how to weld... if you do most of the research yourself, you'll find that all you really need is a turbo, IC, and header or some way to mount the turbo. then all you have to do is adjust the fuel system to compensate, and run a few oil/water lines and intake piping.

it's really quite simple but unless you know what you're doing... you gotta pay $$$$ for someone else to R&D for you.

honda kits are simple becasue anyone and their mother can make a header for it... that's the most expensive part due to R&D... BMW's are so minited on their space, and an inline 6 is much harder to make a header for than an I-4. have you looked at all the space a civic has under the hood compared to a 3-series?...

thats not R&D. thats just fabricating. R&D is when you make multiple manifolds and test each one. try different turbos. try diferent intercoolers. try different maps or even ECU's. evaluate drivability of each version and look at the power each one makes.
Then look all the data you have (you were logging EVERYTHING on each version of the kit, right?) and decide what should be the production version. make a production run of that and make sure its still what you had thought it would be. Takes lots of man hours, lots of hardware (ECU, dataloggers, etc...), and usually a good bit of money too. if you don't do all this though, you are just "throwing together some parts" as opposed to "engineering a kit".

-Michael McCoy

[stimpee]

:clap: :clap: :clap: for techno550!

[darien28]

I don't consider researching what parts to use and what header design (piping size, lengths, number of bends), what turbo to use, what IC, how to mount them, fuel injecting map tuning, ignition map tuning, materials used to make put together the kit...

I don't consider that "throwing together some parts"

R&D is still R&D. I was just pointing out that you can save a lot of money doing some limited R&D yourself as opposed to buying a kit. Might not make as much power as the kit, but with a properly researched homegrown turbo system, I'm sure you can one that is 95% as effective as say... an AA system for about 1/2 the price if you're using all new parts. Also, R&D for the larger company is mainly geared towards a production run, so that bumps up the cost by a lot. making the jigs for the headers, providing warranties, gathering parts... etc.

I suggest you read Maximum Boost by Corky Bell if you want to know more about turbocharging, and also pickup a few books on engine blueprinting and the such. It gives great insight on how these systems work and how simple it really is.

[Garrett]

Darien, I think you lost some of us... We wre refering to how EXSPENSIVE BMW supercharger & Turbocharger kits were... and it was suggested that the high cost of most those kits were due to R&D not fabrication cost associated with welding... lol

Uno, the $100,000 or so that it cost to RESEARCH and then DEVELOPE the product. The kit might cost $4k in parts , but you have to sell it for 10-15% over that to recoupe the $100,000+ (est)R&D cost of the kit.

Offcoarse any "jo-hack" can buy a S/C or turbo and stuff it into their car... they will have ALOT of work ahead of them welding all the manifolds and tubing... then finding someone to work the software end of it... to get it all working. In the end, you would be better off buying a KIT that someone already spent numerious $$$ researching and developing... and supporting.


If your arguement is that "someone" can save some money while designing a kit by doing their own welding.... then yes they can... but that cost is PITTANCE to the over-all cost of designing a kit. Perhaps $9,000 of the $100g's(example)...

In the end, you can slap a Turbo on any car.... doesnt mean it will run as efficient as possable or you wont have problems. Wrenching around in your garrage is fun and making a car more POWERFUL is a common denominator among young men... our dads tell us stories of the "good-ol'e-days" of cu-inch engines... they talk about dual six-packs and carburators.. LOL we have the tech age stuff. BUT....

But... we also own BMW's and I do not want a hastily contrived concoction under the hood of my $45,000 car. Hence, the reason why most of us will pay $$$ to have a REFINED kit to go with our REFINED car.

[RRdawho?]

Originally posted by Garrett

Uno, the $100,000 or so that it cost to RESEARCH and then DEVELOPE the product. The kit might cost $4k in parts , but you have to sell it for 10-15% over that to recoupe the $100,000+ (est)R&D cost of the kit.


I dont see how AA's 8-10k price tag is 10-15% .... :az:

Regardless AA is a bit steep...

[BlkDinanM3]

The twin-screw Supercharger is worth looking into. The story that European Car published regarding this supercharger in an E36 M3 was incredible. EC compared it to having the M5 engine in an M3. All that torque and HP!

I wonder how much it costs installed?

[denverlicious]

hahaha i really think that we are all waiting for this twin screw LOL. but watch the price be 7-8K goddamn id rather save the extra 2K and get the AA turbo. you know what i mean? as for me right now im waiting to see this price of the twin screw. if the price is right then ill get it. but if not ill go ahead and save for the AA turbo. OR should i just get the euro 3.2 m3 engine? what you guys think?

[darien28]

Originally posted by RRdawho?
I dont see how AA's 8-10k price tag is 10-15% .... :az:

Regardless AA is a bit steep...

ditto...

a brand new turbo is only like 800-1200 depending on trim, wheel, housing, and such.

FMIC ~600

piping (single set, NOT mass produced) ~$100

misc other stuff like BOVs and other misc items ~1000 at most.

tell me how that equates to a 11k turbo kit?

anyways... anything for a euro car is expensive. that's why I've resorted to custom fabrication and doing my own research...

I've heard too much "refined product for refined car" bullshit. it's still jsut a car regardless of how much it costs. a new mkIV Supra costs $50k, doesn't mean they have to spend 11k on a single turbo system upgrade... they spend only 3500-6500... so why is it that BMW systems cost ummm... almost more than 2x as much for the same amount of stuff? just cuz the piping is bent differrently? just doesn't make sense to me. manufacturers just want too much money cuz they know they can charge BMW owners up the arse for their products.

[DocWyte]

The Supra's are already FI from the factory. That makes the job of the aftermarket "kit" maker that much easier.

You're right, the hardware is pretty cheap, it's the software that costs all the money.

The twin screw blower, if priced at $7k, is still cheaper than the AA stage 1 turbo at $8,7k...

[denverlicious]

yea but still, even though the twin screw is just a little less than the AA stage 1. i'd rather just save for the turbo then. With the turbo i can at least upgrade sometime if i can ever get the extra money. and that fron mount intercooler just LOOKS insane!!!. we for the extra grand and a half id rather get the turbo.

[MFaust]

Originally posted by denverlicious
yea but still, even though the twin screw is just a little less than the AA stage 1. i'd rather just save for the turbo then. With the turbo i can at least upgrade sometime if i can ever get the extra money.

I think the Twin Screw will also be upgradable. I've read it somewhere between all the debates and arguments in the Eurosport Twin Screw thread.

[Bassmaster]

AA's intake pipe 500.00
intercooler stage II 1250.00
turbo manifold 1600.00
motor mount 500.00
I think that is way over 50%

Here is pic of my intercooler,piping, motor mounts, t bolts, hose etc.... I have about 700.00 in everything there. If you shop around and know what to look for you can save $$$.

[Bassmaster]

Some other major parts of the custom turbo set up. about 5500.00 invested
Tec III
IBM T30 pent 4 2.4 ghz,256 mb ram,40 ghz HD
cartech manifold
tial 38mm
AA HP clutch, 6puck disc light flywheel
triple guage pod.
turbonetic T4 60-1 hifi

[323I Junkie]

man I love cast manifolds for turbos, steel moves around so much...and curability and heat retention are right up there

[Agaponi]

Originally posted by denverlicious
i used to be a ricer and turbos were quite cheap. i could get a turbo that would give me 300-400 hp easy for about 3500. how come for the M3 a turbo from AA is about 11000? kinda pricey dont you think? if i wanted good FI for my car that has good performance but not as expensive what should i go?

Guys, if you really want brutal but cheap POWER, go for the ATP Turbo kit... but i would recomend stand alone or piggyback computer, or let Karl do the software...
price will be below $5000 for a complete kit...
www.atpturbo.com

[Garrett]

You would choose a Turbo over a Compressor ..? and because it looks good ...?

[souroull]

Originally posted by Garrett
You would choose a Turbo over a Compressor ..?

any day of the week, twice on sundays and 3 times on holidays

i call bs for that 100k research and development shit, its a bunch of pipes for christ sake, but what do i know?

[DrifterJay]

i'd have to say they make good points on R&D and the fact those kits let the car lok stock act stock but just alot more powerful. tho i do agree that AA is steep and same as a few others i've seen, but u know you can trust AA cuz their kits are complete and thorough. i personally on the limited budget of a highschool student that works part time opted to go custom. i'm basicly doin the same thing as bassmaster just not standalone. though i have to swap motors first and my kit still will cost less than AA. $3500 for complete swap (engine, tranny, wiring, ecu, blah blah) then bout another $4000 for all the typical turbo pieces and more (full exhaust), with an estimated $600 for ecu tuning included in that....

thats $7500 for all of you who don't know how to add or use the massive calculator ur sitting at. point being is that a kit can be made for less, and with a good tune, be just as effective so thats my choice. granted i'm spending about the same price as the stg1 from AA, i'm also gettin a different motor included in that $7500. so if u want real cheap buy a honda but if u want quality, respect, and pure fun, turbo(or supercharge) ur bmw and stop complaing about the price. what i'm doin is cheap in bmw standards, costly in honda standards. its all about how you look at it

[DocWyte]

DrifterJay, I'm afraid you're going to be in for a huge dose of reality. As with any project, you can pretty much multiply your initial costs by 2.5 to get an idea of what your true end costs will be.

I hope you can afford that. If not, I'd seriously reconsider your plans...

Been there, done that...

[DrifterJay]

DocWyte, i'm not sure i completely understand what u mean? granted i'm leaving out shipping costs on a few things, i'm doin the install of the motor myself with help from a BMW tech when i need it, and doin the custom piping myself, cutting labor costs. i figure i'll need a few hundred worth of odds and ends, silicon connectors, fluids, a few flanges, sparkplugs, all that good stuff, but i'm not seeing the multiplied 2.5x of the cost? the 3500 is for the complete motor swap shipped. i'm just tryin to see what ur sayin, cuz if your right, i'll need to revise my plans but sayin i'm in for a reality dose doesn't help me out much so if u could expand on that i'd appriciate it.

[highboostingm3]

Originally posted by techno550
thats not R&D. thats just fabricating. R&D is when you make multiple manifolds and test each one. try different turbos. try diferent intercoolers. try different maps or even ECU's. evaluate drivability of each version and look at the power each one makes.
Then look all the data you have (you were logging EVERYTHING on each version of the kit, right?) and decide what should be the production version. make a production run of that and make sure its still what you had thought it would be. Takes lots of man hours, lots of hardware (ECU, dataloggers, etc...), and usually a good bit of money too. if you don't do all this though, you are just "throwing together some parts" as opposed to "engineering a kit".

-Michael McCoy

:buttrock I want to congratulate techno550 for telling it like it is!

I have the answer! Buy my old turbo kit!!!!!!!!!Nuff said!

[Geno325is]

OT: Cameron, that top mount manifold is sweet! First one in the states, maybe? You should start a thread.

[DocWyte]

DrifterJay,

Ya see, that's *exactly* what I'm talking about. You're not taking into account if anything goes wrong, if you need to replace any broken parts, tuning for the turbo system, etc, etc, etc.

Trust me, it'll be alot more than you think...

[DocWyte]

Stimpee has taken months, close to a year to get his kit done. Also, Jim Conforti did the software for him, so that was a huge part of the kit.

Believe what you like, but putting together a kit takes alot of time, effort and money.

[NickG]

second question
as far as i know stimpee did the kit on his own spare time, he doesnt have a shop, he didnt blow any motors, or any s/cers as far as i know... now WTF is so difficult and expensive about it. its a bunch of goddamn pipes
eurosport had dyno's months back, i'm sure it took them less than a week to put that thing togeather, now they are just beating the shit out of it to find its flaws and optimise it or whatever

Those statements right there show your complete lack of knowledge and understanding of the matter. Both Eurosport and Stimpee took about 2 years(!) to get their kits in running condition. Not quite a week as you say. The engineering resources they had to use/purchase also cost an arm and a leg. If you think it's just 'a bunch of goddamn pipes', I challenge you to do the same thing then. I think you'll be back here crying after a month, LOL.

Sounds to me like you've never undertaken such a project, so I don't think it's wise for you to be making such comments on something you have no idea about.

[paul e]

>> now WTF is so difficult and expensive about it. its a bunch of goddamn pipes<<

I can hardly believe you are serious. Do you have any idea whats involved in fitting and testing hardware, let alone in deciding which pieces, and which specs, flow rates, etc, etc to use in the first place? Even after youve spent all the months involved in testfitting and 'speccing' out alternative hardware solutions for your application, you havent even begun to take into consideration in your misguided thread how you would tackle the software issues! Do you have any idea how many years of learning, and reverse engineering, and disassembling of code is required to even begin to appoach it?

Christ.. if it were so easy, especially the software, why is it that there are only a tiny handful of people in our market who can even begin to deal with it, and an even smaller handful doing it the right way?!

Youre going to take a ton of heat for your brazen comments; deservedly so!

[Garrett]

LOL.....


You my friend have to be most ignorant to believe your own rederict..!!

ANYONE.... me, you your grandma..etc can purchase a turbo (or S/C) and all the part that go into making a COMPLETE FI system... that same person can then then lay all those parts out on the garage floor and say.... "This is my kit" and then try to assemble it onto your car.

Assembly does not make your kit work...

Just because you bought $500 worth of tubing and bent it all up to fit under your car and assembed everything onto the engine doest mean that it will do anything.

Your the type of person who doesnt understand what engineering is or what stress testing and analysis does for a product. ANYONE can hodge-poge and exhaust together and get it to fit..... but then without testing you wouldn't know that your choking that new turbo's power output by 40% because the eddie currents and NON-efficient headers and exhaust....!!



Have you ever bent steel....??? Do you think that even tho pro's get it bent right everytime..? Take your car to a muffler shop and tell them you want them to bend steel all over and around your engine.... and it cannot touch anything. Then ask him if you buy the steel ($500) how much will he charge you to do it... and how long will it take.

Plan on comming back in about 2 weeks when he's got it all mapped out in his mind and after numerious trial and errors he tells you he "thinks he's got it" but he wasted all the steel-tubing you bought trying to get everthing to fit right.

Now.... 1 year later you take the car back to him because you have a hole in the tubing where his ignorance lead him to beleive you can put those types of bends in a HOT HOT HOT system.


:confused: <---- You

[DrifterJay]

DocWyte, i'm not doubting what ur sayin by any means, but i'm not tryin to just throw the kit together, i'm doin it in steps, talking to people to learn from others mistakes. i know i will have other costs unseen but i'm an optimistic person, engine in first, then piece the kit together, and like i said i included $600, a price i got from another person on about how much a custom ecu tune would be, i'm researching the tuning as much as i can. i don't mean to come off ignorant or or cocky, i've just laid out plans, and i'll adjust them as needed, like i said i'm optimistix and determined, if this kit takes me all month, great, if it takes me all summer and winter, thats cool. yeah i don't have alot of money, but how many teen's do? i'm probably the youngest guy here puttin my own kit together, but with help from friends and being cost effecient, i'm not worried. thanks for the concern, and i've seriously taken in what u've said, i've got the time, i'm all about the effort, and as for the money, i'm workin on that :)
peace

[stimpee]

Those statements right there show your complete lack of knowledge and understanding of the matter. Both Eurosport and Stimpee took about 2 years(!) to get their kits in running condition. Not quite a week as you say. The engineering resources they had to use/purchase also cost an arm and a leg. If you think it's just 'a bunch of goddamn pipes', I challenge you to do the same thing then. I think you'll be back here crying after a month, LOL.

Sounds to me like you've never undertaken such a project, so I don't think it's wise for you to be making such comments on something you have no idea about.

Where is Souroull's post that says the stuff you included Nick?

I want to laugh at it, but I can't find it!!!

:booty:

[NickG]

Steve,

Apparently souroull deleted his post

Some nice features in this latest vBulletin software :)

[frayed]

It was pretty funny. Proclaimed that it took Eurosport and you only a week or so to put your respective kits together, as they are just a bunch of pipes.

The other 48 months, you've apparantly only been doing torture/stress testing.

[96cosmosM3]

As long as there are BMW owners willing to pay these ridiculous prices for forced induction I dount see why they would lower the prices. The hardware portion of a turbo kit is easy - yes, easy. I have custom made everything for my non-bmw project car. Sure, I it involved some trial and error and redesigning certain parts more than once.I'm doing this from my garage with minimal previous experience,but for some who does this for a living it is easy. A friends shop have made made custom one of turbo setups for anything from subarus to yugos, all for less than half of what AA charges.

Software on the other hand is different story. To tune a car that was not meant for forced induction using the factory ecu is not easy. And if you want to keep the factory ecu, it may be worth paying a premium for good sw. Myself, I'd rather get a standalone and have it tuned for my car, rather than a generic modified factory ecu.

[DocWyte]

The problem is a TEC3 is $3000, not including installation, dyno time or tuning. That's a huge amount of cash, and you're automatically failing every smog inspection in the country with it...

[stimpee]

As long as there are BMW owners willing to pay these ridiculous prices for forced induction I dount see why they would lower the prices. The hardware portion of a turbo kit is easy - yes, easy. I have custom made everything for my non-bmw project car. Sure, I it involved some trial and error and redesigning certain parts more than once.I'm doing this from my garage with minimal previous experience,but for some who does this for a living it is easy. A friends shop have made made custom one of turbo setups for anything from subarus to yugos, all for less than half of what AA charges.

Software on the other hand is different story. To tune a car that was not meant for forced induction using the factory ecu is not easy. And if you want to keep the factory ecu, it may be worth paying a premium for good sw. Myself, I'd rather get a standalone and have it tuned for my car, rather than a generic modified factory ecu.

Okay, now try to take your "custom one-off" turbo set up that you built for yourself, for your car, and turn it into a KIT that a discriminating BMW buyer would want on their $15-$50k car and make it look like it came from the factory, integrate it, test it, make sure it is bulletproof, write assembly and installation instructions, set up an infrastructure to support the kit both from a sales/distribution standpoint, as well as support the installers and users, source the components from places that can build quality parts affordably, and do it for a market that has such small production numbers and sales potential that most foundries and decent sized machine shops laugh at you when you ask them for pricing on what are LARGE quantities for you, but peanuts for them.

Until you have tried to do that, pass no judgement on the pricing of these BMW forced induction kits, as you have no clue what you are talking about...

I used to think I did, then I tried doing it myself. You may understand what it takes to put a turbo setup together, but I doubt you understand what it takes to engineer, test, and produce a kit.

[Bassmaster]

Say what you want to say....AA's 11000.00 E36 M3 turbo kit is over priced for what you get......it should include a GT series ball bearing turbo, a 3000.00 Tec III clutch / flywheel & turbo cat back.

[stimpee]

I am not "Justifying" anyone's pricing here, I am merely saying that you guys are not looking at the full picture of what it takes to develop and produce a KIT.

If you have the ability, and the resources, you will almost ALWAYS be able to build something yourself cheaper than you can buy it, assuming that your TIME is considered FREE.

If I factored in my TIME at the typical Engineering rate that I can charge for that TIME (and I am cheap compared to a lot of other professions), I would have over 1/4 million bux invested in my kit development.

Now, if you are a BUSINESS, and need a RETURN on that investment, do you think a 10% markup is going to do it in a market where you MIGHT sell a few hundred kits in the lifetime of the product?

Granted, NEXT TIME I could do it FAR more quickly due to the learnings this first time thru, but when I hear so many people say they are going to put together their own setup for like $3k-$4k as they add up the price of a few of the major components of the kit, I will continue to sit back and smile...

[///MCubed]

I am not "Justifying" anyone's pricing here, I am merely saying that you guys are not looking at the full picture of what it takes to develop and produce a KIT.

If you have the ability, and the resources, you will almost ALWAYS be able to build something yourself cheaper than you can buy it, assuming that your TIME is considered FREE.

If I factored in my TIME at the typical Engineering rate that I can charge for that TIME (and I am cheap compared to a lot of other professions), I would have over 1/4 million bux invested in my kit development.

Now, if you are a BUSINESS, and need a RETURN on that investment, do you think a 10% markup is going to do it in a market where you MIGHT sell a few hundred kits in the lifetime of the product?

Granted, NEXT TIME I could do it FAR more quickly due to the learnings this first time thru, but when I hear so many people say they are going to put together their own setup for like $3k-$4k as they add up the price of a few of the major components of the kit, I will continue to sit back and smile...


BADABING!!! Hit the nail right on the head.

[Garrett]

LOL... man some people cannot understand simple business basics...!!


For all of you COMPLAINING about the cost of Kits... Have you ever bought a McDonald's Hamburger ...?

Can you make a better Burger ...? Offcoarse you can.... so why did you BUY McDonald's Burger Kit ...?

Time..? Conveinence..?

Now Obviously that compairson is silly'ly contrived.. but you see my point.

$7,000 investment into my $45,000 car... I want something thats been tested and will work EVERYTIME i start my car.. I will gladly pay another $1,500 more for a "Kit" that will give me that peice of mind... and doesnt look all "hacked" up under my hood.

That is my choice.... but then again only the BEST goes into my cars.

[Bassmaster]

If you're spending 7000..00 to begin with I doubt it will be a hack job.
Yea my wifes is like that too...spends 45000 plus on her car and pays for the 100.00 oil changes the dealer charges ...Convienence is right... If you have money...dont like to tinker, get your hands dirty, or feel the pride of self accomplishment. Then the price to pay for a high dollar pre fab kit...AA's in this case.. doesnt matter at all.

[highboostingm3]

:grenade: That's what people do on BFC when they complain about the price of FI. I nearly fell asleep because I was so bored in reading the justification of why a FI kit should be $2-$5K or whatever for bimmers. Maybe you were bored & wanted the big guns like ///MCubed & such to come out of their extremely busy lives to flame you.

You want advice? Here are some choices:
A)Keep these things to yourself
B)Buy a Honda instead of a BMW
C)Or go to school to get a better paying job/start a business so that you can afford AA

You might have squeezed every penny out of the piggy bank to buy a bimmer...then don't expect to modify the sucker for a few extra pennies as well. That's what the ricer boy club is for.

[souroull]

Steve,

Apparently souroull deleted his post

Some nice features in this latest vBulletin software :)

hey hey gimme a break will ya, ok i said something stupid, i have no idea what i'm talking about happy now?

[DrifterJay]

:clap: :clap: souroull has the balls to admit he was wrong, props to him. oh and DocWyte, your right about one thing, TeC3 is expensive as hell, BUT! in this lovely state of Indiana there is no such thing as emissions testing!! but granted i just found out that NickG does not do ecu tuning for a non vanos m50 i'll have to find sum one else. i'm not goin stand alone tho, i'm just doin a mild setup.

"A)Keep these things to yourself
B)Buy a Honda instead of a BMW
C)Or go to school to get a better paying job/start a business so that you can afford AA"

well said Cam, i think i said sumthin similar to the buy a honda thing in my last post, great minds think alike. i need a new job tho for real, fastfood isn't cuttin it for my BMW needs.

[Agaponi]

:clap: :clap: souroull has the balls to admit he was wrong, props to him. oh and DocWyte, your right about one thing, TeC3 is expensive as hell, BUT! in this lovely state of Indiana there is no such thing as emissions testing!! but granted i just found out that NickG does not do ecu tuning for a non vanos m50 i'll have to find sum one else. i'm not goin stand alone tho, i'm just doin a mild setup.

"A)Keep these things to yourself
B)Buy a Honda instead of a BMW
C)Or go to school to get a better paying job/start a business so that you can afford AA"

well said Cam, i think i said sumthin similar to the buy a honda thing in my last post, great minds think alike. i need a new job tho for real, fastfood isn't cuttin it for my BMW needs.

Try with Karl at Active Autowerke...

[RRdawho?]

I agree with what Stimpee and the others have said. I've been developing my own kit for about a year now, its a true PITA. I won't say anything more cause everything worth mentioning about effort time and research on a kit has already been said.

[DrifterJay]

thanks Agaponi, help in any form is appriciated.

[BoostFed325]

AA isnt making as much as you all think off there kits.
nomore profit percent then i bet greddy is on there civic kits and what not.

[frankie1000]

I've just read this thread from the start and still have the same views i had before.

This only applys to SC, as im certain that turbo systems are hella harder.

I've got a 318is, M42 engine. Now i could go out and buy the DA kit for it at about £2100 but im not.

Cost of parts = £500, SC sourced brand new from ebay or a low milage one. If the SC was gonna cost me £1000 then i wouldnt bother, and would get the DA kit.

I plan to get the SC first as cheap as possible (good condition Eaton M45, or other 3rd gen Eaton)

I then plan on using my time during summer break to build all the piping, and other custom parts out of stainless steel. Sure its certainly not going to be easy, and there will be problems along the way, But i've got the mentality of "if i think about it right, and do it right, I CAN do anything i want"

Fair enough, those who are not as willing as me can have thier own views.

Now the DA kit comes with 3 main things

the SC
the custom inlet and intake pipeing
the Rising rate FPR

This is all you get, no custom ECU software, no piggyback sytems, no larger injectors, Nadda...

FPRs are cheap and plentiful, i've already sourced my pipeing and the SC are in Many a number on ebay and other ad's. I dont see how anyone can turn around and say "you cant do it, its too hard"

I can weld, and have a nice machine for it. Sure i have to figure out the piping and get the best routes, but as far as im concerned its just common sense. You dont bend a pipe at stupid angles instantly or the air wont like it. You can go farther on this and get the best possible route by working out air currents in the pipeing, frictional drag, compression points. I probably will, hell im sure i can get myself a copy of a simulation program and work out everything to the mm before i even go to the real world.

At the end of the day, im not expecting the best system, but ill be 95% as good as a DA kit.

Hard work pays off.

Sorry if this post seems a bit random in places, just woke up...

cheers