E3 plugs...

[E34ührer]

Someone tell me more. I know +2/+4/Platinum/yadda yadda aren't recommended, but has anyone used these? I found one post here...but one person of the multitudes on BF.c isn't enough. (I just replaced with Bosch Fl7ldc er whatevers 5k ago...) I'm just curious.

[yuceturk1453]

E3 plugs supposedly best out there. Fuel efficiency and performance. I have watch how do they do it and they were testing bunch of spark plugs and E3 came first one. I do not have it on my car but soon will share the experiences.

[5mall5nail5]

Nope.

Waste o money.

[E34ührer]

The phrase under your name almost made me cry this morning...

Slow, my friend...fells like my car. :(

[T444E]

I used them in my ex's '95 525. They really did make a difference in fuel economy. Can't speak to performance though, she wouldn't know the difference.

[richinvan]

Nope.

Waste o money.

Not true. I've read the independent testing made at Michigan State - and there are marginal efficiency gains to be made with them.

E3, unlike the other 'gimmick' players like Pulstar, et al., are the only plug that's been verified independently to meet their claims.

Unlike most other plugs, who advertise that their plugs increase efficiency (with a big asterisk indicating the efficiency gain is against a worn out old plug), they advertise that they provide gains over other 'new' plugs.

The FTC's been watching this closely, as they don't want another Splitfire debacle (http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1997/02/splitfir.shtm).

I need to dig through my files from my previous job - I have copies of all the testing done, somewhere.

Bottom line: it's not going to hurt to put them in - and I don't believe they're any more expensive than another plug. And I'm pretty sure they still have a 100% money-back guarantee?

I never used them; but I've seen the scientific data... and that was enough for me and my team to introduce them as a new product in my old job.

[5mall5nail5]

Nope - not buying it else theyd be more popular. You can only ignite a mixture "so good". If you have a really slow chamber you can multi-spark two plugs or one plug twice, but you still only ignite the mixture once, the second ignition event is to insure the flame lasts as it travels through a chamber. A modern engine does not exhibit those traits thus very very few engines have multiple spark plugs.

Its crud.

[richinvan]

Nope - not buying it else theyd be more popular. You can only ignite a mixture "so good". If you have a really slow chamber you can multi-spark two plugs or one plug twice, but you still only ignite the mixture once, the second ignition event is to insure the flame lasts as it travels through a chamber. A modern engine does not exhibit those traits thus very very few engines have multiple spark plugs.

Its crud.

I've seen the data both from Georgia Tech and Michigan State. I've seen the high-speed photography of the shape of the flame front of all the major plugs.

I get it - you're a knowledgable dude. But you're not an engineer or a scientist, nor have you done controlled testing. I've read it all, and we spent months going over it to ensure it was legitimate.

Why aren't they more popular? Well, your statement/opinion above is the main reason - after Splitfire, people err on the side of gimmick.

I will always take objective data over subjective opinion.
If I can find the experimental data, I'll post it.

[Baupfhor]

My biggest concern about these plugs (or any aftermarket plug) is the internal resistance. Too much or too little can cause premature failure of the ignition coil(s). That's the main reason for using oem.

[richinvan]

I can't dig around for the original test data until I get home this evening and dig through some old hard drives, but here's snippets of the test data:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1549180/BFC/e3-spark-plugs.pdf

Also, those goofs that do those silly Horsepower TV shows that started back on TNN did an article a few years back on them:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1549180/BFC/E3plugs.pdf

/shrug all these guys must be wrong I guess.

[5mall5nail5]

I've seen the data both from Georgia Tech and Michigan State. I've seen the high-speed photography of the shape of the flame front of all the major plugs.

I get it - you're a knowledgable dude. But you're not an engineer or a scientist, nor have you done controlled testing. I've read it all, and we spent months going over it to ensure it was legitimate.

Why aren't they more popular? Well, your statement/opinion above is the main reason - after Splitfire, people err on the side of gimmick.

I will always take objective data over subjective opinion.
If I can find the experimental data, I'll post it.

Ok so show me data. I have seen documentation from various studies just like this where they show what looks to be incredible data but leave out the part that they "simulated the results of a high mileage ignition coil and spark plug" etc.

Show me data - you don't find it the least bit peculiar that teams building endurance racers or wild high hp drag cars don't spend the $60 on some spark plugs if they make such a difference? When guys are throwing away connecting rods that measure in spec because they have "hours" on them with no other sign of fatigue.. you think they don't run these wonder plugs because of "skepticism"?

I don't think there was ever a meeting where they said "You know what, lets run $4k aluminum or titanium connecting rods that need to be replaced after every 2 hour race... but lets just run copper spark plugs because those E3 ones are too exotic."

When you have a huge sum of money on the line with bonus from sponsors, 2 hp can be a WORLD of help. Why wouldn't they run these plugs then? Seems like easy success.

PS there is no citation or authorship on that document. You could have written them for a final in a class you took. The magazine article is extremely common. There was a wideband sensor shoot out in that same magazine I believe that put the worst performing sensor and device in the front... the manufacturer was a huge advertiser in the magazine.

I have a hard time believing graphs that I can't read and have no inputs. "Here is the cylinder pressure using our plug vs theirs." Ok, know what also changes cylinder pressure? Timing. Compress. AFR. None of that is addressed. This is just a marketing paper.

[richinvan]

What part of "I will get the information this evening when I get home" did you miss?

You know a lot, snail... but you don't know everything.
It was my *job* to know the spark plug market, the technology behind them all.

It is not yours.
I know it burns you up that you might conceivably be *gasp* wrong about something.
It really doesn't matter though - I know you: I'll provide the scientific studies done, and you'll come up with some way to invalidate them.

Your statements are just opinion. Mine are based on factual, independently-obtained evidence.

Stick to your turbos.

[5mall5nail5]

What part of "I will get the information this evening when I get home" did you miss?

You know a lot, snail... but you don't know everything.
It was my *job* to know the spark plug market, the technology behind them all.

It is not yours.
I know it burns you up that you might conceivably be *gasp* wrong about something.
It really doesn't matter though - I know you: I'll provide the scientific studies done, and you'll come up with some way to invalidate them.

Your statements are just opinion. Mine are based on factual, independently-obtained evidence.

Stick to your turbos.

Prove it wrong. Go put them in your engine and provide results of a power increase outside of normal variation due to environmental changes. If you mail me a box I will put them in my engine (assuming correct plug temp) and do a back to back dyno and show you no change, if not even a loss of power when I blow the spark out on that electrode design.

Wasn't it you who was arguing with me (and others) up and down that NGK plugs suck and break? Weren't you claiming to be an autolite plug rep or something? I forget.

What is your job exactly that makes you so eligible to discuss spark plugs? All I do is make horsepower - I can do it with a turbo or an NA engine, I don't care. Chances are if you and I were given a box of parts mine would make more power because I happen to know what to do with things based on experience and research. If I could put a spark plug in my car and have it solve all of the issues in my life, I would. It'd be a hell of a lot cheaper to throw a pair of plugs in my car then build a bigger engine for more power now wouldn't it?

Again, I am not interested in marketing papers. If you were some sort of sales rep for this company (and excuse me if I am mixing you up with someone else on the forum) then that explains a lot to me. But, there's a reason why race teams with tens of millions of dollars of R&D budget aren't running these sparkplugs.

I like HP. If you can make any measurable amount of hp more by simply dropping a sparkplug in then show me. But don't try to convince me without posting quantitative data.

Just so you know, I know what PP is, and I know what cylinder pressure looks like. I also know how ion sensing works and how closed loop ignitions systems work. I've researched a LOT throughout building cars and ECUs. I just wanted to throw that out there so you know you're not pioneering any new data one me.

And rich let me just quote you for a sec:


Here's my professional advice (as the guy in Canada once-upon-a-time responsible for buying decisions in spark plugs for the largest retailer in Canada - about $40M worth):

Pulstar I'm leaning towards snake oil personally, I've read their papers and nothing was verified in an independent lab. E3's papers were verified independently, but I'm still on the fence with them.
To quote Kevlar's sig:

"Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by hundreds of engineers that get paid thousands of dollars for something you bought at Pep Boys because your buddy who doesn't have a job told you it was 'better'?!? "

So a year ago you were leaning toward them being snake oil but now you're convinced. Hm. What changed. And as I remembered you were a buyer for an automotive store, so of course you're going by marketing material and "what people buy".

[richinvan]

Nice misquote.
I said I was on the fence with E3. Not snake oil.
I said that because I never put them in my own car. I only read the studies.

I never said NGK plugs suck and break - I said quite clearly that ALL plugs from ALL manufacturers have had issues in the past.

I have no vested interest in *any* spark plug manufacturer, for the record.

You said it yourself: all you do is "make horsepower". You're no engineer.
I will provide the studies if I have them. It won't matter to you; you're as pig-headed as they come.

[5mall5nail5]

Nice misquote.
I said I was on the fence with E3. Not snake oil.
I said that because I never put them in my own car. I only read the studies.

I never said NGK plugs suck and break - I said quite clearly that ALL plugs from ALL manufacturers have had issues in the past.

I have no vested interest in *any* spark plug manufacturer, for the record.

You said it yourself: all you do is "make horsepower". You're no engineer.
I will provide the studies if I have them. It won't matter to you; you're as pig-headed as they come.

Rich I am sorry but until you've got dudes calling you up for engine looms, ignition modules recommendations, IGBT help, and your workbench in the garage is covered with oscilloscopes and dataloggers I think I have a little more qualification than you do as a buyer for an auto parts company.

I make horsepower and in order to do that you have to engineer things both mechanically and electrically.

http://jonkensy.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/MS2board.jpg

I've designed a few different ignition circuits in my days of not being an engineer. :rolleyes

PS I did not mis-quote you... I literally quoted you. You said your are convinced that Pulstar were snake oil and E3 you were on the fence about. On the fence between what? Based on context clues you were on the fence between accepting them and thinking they're snake oil. Now, however, without running them on your own car or anything, you are convinced. Doesn't really add up to anything does it?

[richinvan]

Like I said, it doesn't matter what I end up showing... you'll come up with some reason why everyone else is wrong and what you do is the very best of the best.

It got boring a long time ago. Now we just wait for the fanbois to show and say OMG SNAIL IZ DA BEST U NOOB HE IZ TURBO GOD!

I'll post the studies when I get/find them (I contacted a professor at MSU for a copy, and sent a note to E3 asking for new copies - it's close to EOBD on the East Coast); and we'll let people read them and decide for themselves.

I do find it ironic though, that after all your words above... you still believe they don't work... when you haven't actually used them yourself.

Everyone's got an opinion. You're entitled to it.
Cheers.

[5mall5nail5]

Like I said, it doesn't matter what I end up showing... you'll come up with some reason why everyone else is wrong and what you do is the very best of the best.

It got boring a long time ago. Now we just wait for the fanbois to show and say OMG SNAIL IZ DA BEST U NOOB HE IZ TURBO GOD!

I'll post the studies when I get/find them (I contacted a professor at MSU for a copy, and sent a note to E3 asking for new copies - it's close to EOBD on the East Coast); and we'll let people read them and decide for themselves.

I do find it ironic though, that after all your words above... you still believe they don't work... when you haven't actually used them yourself.

Everyone's got an opinion. You're entitled to it.
Cheers.

I actually have used them and noticed nothing. I tried various plugs out. I showed you a bin of about 200 spark plugs that I have used the last time you debated this.

Like I said, I do things the way I do because they work. I am not pig headed. If you can provide me something that works better, I will use it. If you can't, I won't. I designed my ECU and build around two Cherry Switch hall sensors and it didn't work out as well. I researched the circuitry involved and it was surely more advanced and accurate than variable-reluctor sensors (am I losing you yet?) however once I engineered a way to run the sensor on the crank wheel with the correct air gap after scoping I/Os and going through mu metal and shielded PTFE MIL cabling procedures (adopted from books from the facility in which I work in, confirmed by aerospace engineers who sit across the hall from me) I had bad luck with said sensor. I spent months trying to make the square wave signal line up but for the life of me I could not get reliable results.

If I were pig headed I would have pressed on assured that hall effect sensors were the best for my application but rather than do that I conceded that variable-reluctor type, though dating back to 1970, was the better fit for this application. Even in the face of wanting near-zero movement tooth resolution, I fell back on antiquated AC velocity driven signals...

So, yeah, I guess I am stubborn.


Or. Could it be that I chase what works and works well? That might be the ticket. How many dozens of spark plugs and how many tens of thousands of miles and how many ECU builds and tunes and harness consultations and ... yeah, how many of all that do you have to tell me that I am wrong to rely on what has worked for me and everyone else, some whose "working" is what brings food to their table?

[richinvan]

Are you done yet?

[eternalightwith]

Stop poking the turbo Grizzly. :D



Are you done yet?

[5mall5nail5]

Are you done yet?

How can we have even begun? You've insulted my intelligence and abilities with nothing to show but some marketing papers that you yourself found suspect a year ago. The real question is, are you done yet?

[richinvan]

How can we have even begun? You've insulted my intelligence and abilities with nothing to show but some marketing papers that you yourself found suspect a year ago. The real question is, are you done yet?

What intelligence? "I ran E3 plugs in a non-scientific method and saw no difference so they're clearly junk."

Scientific method? What's that?

I love your poor attempts at misquoting again. How do you equate "on the fence" (as in I have not made a decision) with "suspicion", which implies negativity?

I'll post the papers when I get them.

[5mall5nail5]

What intelligence? "I ran E3 plugs in a non-scientific method and saw no difference so they're clearly junk."

Scientific method? What's that?

I love your poor attempts at misquoting again. How do you equate "on the fence" (as in I have not made a decision) with "suspicion", which implies negativity?

I'll post the papers when I get them.

You are probably the only person I have ever heard of use the term "on the fence" in a supposed positive manner :confused On the fence = not convinced. You were not convinced a year ago they did anything, and now you are. So, something must have happened but alas you tell me I didn't have anything worthwhile to say yet you haven't even run them lol

I have tried over 200 spark plugs. Again, I showed you a bucket of them last time you tried to debate with me spark plugs. Do I need to post the image again? I have used auto lite, brisk, E3, denso, bosch, champion, and NGK. The only manufacturer who has provided a plug in the temp range I need that didn't cost a ton or cause other issues is NGK. Purely coincidental is the fact that race cars and highly strung motors and daily drivers alike are all running the same exact spark plug as I am. I am really pig headed like that.

Just so you know, the E3 plugs I used cause massive resets on the ECU I was using (MS2-E with GM twin plug coils using MSD resistive plug leads). If you want confirmation of issues I had you can talk to CerealKilla (his name is Kevin on bfc), as when I put E3 plugs in my car in our school parking lot the car could not even idle due to interference being transmitted. When I'd leave idle the car would run and its not like I had massive amounts of power or economic gains... so sorry, but I like my car to idle. If I had to guess, they either screwed up and didn't provide me a resistive plug or the resistor they were using was not of high enough impedance (though I used NGK racing plugs during that time without resistors and they worked fine... so.... There goes your theory of me not having anything to go by...

In my particular case they were the worst $50 I could have spent which is exactly why in my first post in this thread I said they were a waste of money. I popped the stock 6 temp plugs I was driving on back in and my car ran fine, no resets at idle.


:rofl "What intelligence"

Wow man. I know you're frustrated but at least show some class.

[E34ührer]

I found some very highly convincing data that points to Bosch....

http://www.robbrink.com/content/old/bb4sparkplug.jpg

[Baupfhor]

I found some very highly convincing data that points to Bosch....

http://www.robbrink.com/content/old/bb4sparkplug.jpg

I'm pretty sold on Bosch now

[GnarMachine]

Maybe those E3 plugs work OK in an NA engine, but I doubt there is any gain to be seen. I would never, ever try to run my turbo car with those plugs. There is enough testing by real people out there to suggest the spark would get blown out and that they run very poorly. NGK or Bosch are the only plugs worth bothering with.

[5mall5nail5]

Maybe those E3 plugs work OK in an NA engine, but I doubt there is any gain to be seen. I would never, ever try to run my turbo car with those plugs. There is enough testing by real people out there to suggest the spark would get blown out and that they run very poorly. NGK or Bosch are the only plugs worth bothering with.

Yep - a lot of people have been running them in NA motors too. They have a pretty high percentage of the tip getting hot and essentially becoming a glow plug :rofl

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Duster_2-400s/E3/E3-2.jpg

This guy thought his looked pretty ordinary:

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Duster_2-400s/E3/0five.jpg

Mmmm

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Duster_2-400s/E3/errNcrack.jpg

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Duster_2-400s/E3/crackWarpErr.jpg

Melted down electrode

Turns out all those sharp edges in the combustion chamber become hot spots :rolleyes

Gets better...


http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Duster_2-400s/E3/crackThruNwarp.jpg

Cracking!

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Duster_2-400s/E3/crackNmelt.jpg

So that was fun


How about another yet:

http://honda-tech.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=107651&stc=1&d=1266467702

Everyone of those cars above had been running NGK racing plugs. The demolished ones in the last image were 7k miles old and same temp range as the NGKs which they replaced.

So, whatever, you be the judge. I am no engineer (as richinvan has pointed out) but I think anyone worth their salt will tell you sharp edges in a comp chamber is bad ;)

[richinvan]

Oh wait! Let me play too!

Denso:
http://www.engines1.com/images/blogpics/fouled_plugs.jpg

NGK:
http://www.rotaryeng.net/Spark-plugs/BrokenSparkPlug2.JPG
http://www.bmridersclub.com/images/Spark%20Plug.jpg

Motorcraft:
http://www.convoyautorepair.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/ford-broken-spark-plug-and-spark-plug-diagram.jpg

http://image.fourwheeler.com/f/34924107/129_1012_02_o+129_1012_the_ford_three_valve_broken _spark_plug_blues+champion_and_oe_motorcraft_plug. jpg

Bosch:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y222/Lmanifestdestiny/DSC01312.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y222/Lmanifestdestiny/DSC01326.jpg
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/1157/dscn0403vr5.jpg

I could search for pictures for hours if you'd like.

[E34ührer]

^^^That is what I was looking for. Thank you sir. ;)

aaaaaaaaand :rofl at 'turbogrizzly'...

[5mall5nail5]

Its funny how many E3 fail given how unpopular they are

Are you sure you have not investment in E3 spark plugs? :rofl

Where are those technical "Wow you will be proven wrong" papers? Its "tonight" now.

[richinvan]

Its funny how many E3 fail given how unpopular they are

Please provide some quantitative evidence of failure rates, would you? Oh right, you have none. Surprise.
Do you have ANY quantitative data for *anything* at all? Come on, give me something! Surely you don't base everything in life off anecdotes and opinion, right?



Are you sure you have not investment in E3 spark plugs? :rofl

Are you sure you have not investment... huh?
I made my statement. I don't even work in the auto industry anymore.



Where are those technical "Wow you will be proven wrong" papers? Its "tonight" now.
I'm searching through old hard drives right now - if I don't have them, I've asked my old contacts to send me copies. You'll just have to wait.

I'm looking forward to your next "I have to be right all the time, anything anyone else says or does that's different from what I do or have done is wrong or bad" post.
Please educate us idiots some more, would you?

[5mall5nail5]

I don't even work in the auto industry anymore.


Surprise!

So rich, why don't you tell us why E3 plugs are so great. Seriously - tell us what you think they do and why. I am so dumb and have never proven myself, so let's hear you prove yourself.

I haven't called anyone an idiot - if you read this thread you are the only one making insults and calling people names. Irony yah? I am merely saying you're wasting $50 - 60 on E3 spark plugs.

[richinvan]

I am merely saying you're wasting $50 - 60 on E3 spark plugs.

Based on WHAT empirical evidence?

You don't get it, do you? You're a jerk to so many people around here - you can never be wrong, and you'll argue until the end of time until the other party gives up.

You made a simple statement - that they were junk.
My reply was simply: "I've read the independent research - there seems to be something to them."
The studies and high-speed photography I've seen show a different flame front and increased initial flame velocity in comparison to other plugs. They claim it's due to the electrode shape. I don't know if that's true, but something is causing a different flame shape from the plug.

But because you hold yourself in such high regard, you'll sit here all night long if you have to.

When I find the scientific studies, I'll post them.
As I said, it will make zero difference to you; you'll come up with some reason to discredit them.

Keep posting, though. I insist.
I have no interest in participating any longer; I'll post the studies when I have copies to share. And that's that.

Toodles!

[5mall5nail5]

Based on WHAT empirical evidence?

You don't get it, do you? You're a jerk to so many people around here - you can never be wrong, and you'll argue until the end of time until the other party gives up.

You made a simple statement - that they were junk.
My reply was simply: "I've read the independent research - there seems to be something to them."
The studies and high-speed photography I've seen show a different flame front and increased initial flame velocity in comparison to other plugs. They claim it's due to the electrode shape. I don't know if that's true, but something is causing a different flame shape from the plug.

But because you hold yourself in such high regard, you'll sit here all night long if you have to.

When I find the scientific studies, I'll post them.
As I said, it will make zero difference to you; you'll come up with some reason to discredit them.

Keep posting, though. I insist.
I have no interest in participating any longer; I'll post the studies when I have copies to share. And that's that.

Toodles!

If I am a jerk with no knowledge then why do so many people call and PM me? Strange.

Truth is I am not a jerk. The parts don't work as well as they advertise or they'd be immensely more popular. They're not popular. What is popular is what works. Bimmerworld and Turner don't throw E3 plugs in their race cars. Do you see any of them in Le Mans cars? I don't. I don't see the hyper-mile drivers running them either.

Again, if I could pick up power and economy for $40 more than I pay for usually, I would. But I can't, thus I don't. No one does. The only positive praise you hear is from magazines who have E3 advertising in them. TV shows who have the same.

Instead of fetching some documents that you need to back your claims up why not just simply tell me why E3 plugs offer something. Anything - I am interested to hear what points I must be missing.

I don't hold myself in any regard - I run what I want. If something breaks on me, I don't run it. If it offers nothing I don't run it. If its ridiculously expensive, I run it only once proven to have a benefit. The E3 spark plugs check none of those boxes. You can run them I do not lose sleep over what plug is in someone elses car. But I will continue to pay $2.18 for my spark plugs and make 30+ MPG in my daily 525 and 800 BHP in my turbo 525 without flinching.

http://green.autoblog.com/2007/10/21/dont-count-on-e3-spark-plugs-to-save-you-money-on-gas/

Doh

[richinvan]

What is popular is what works.

Then please explain why Splitfire plugs were so popular for YEARS. They didn't work... and sold like mad. They were so popular, and made so many claims as to increased power and mileage, that the FTC effectively put them out of business.

Do you really think the FTC would let another company get away with making the same claims?

Explain how it is that you think E3 can get away with making these claims if they're so false.

Come on, let us hear it. Tell us all about how you're so much smarter than the FTC.

[5mall5nail5]

Then please explain why Splitfire plugs were so popular for YEARS. They didn't work... and sold like mad. They were so popular, and made so many claims as to increased power and mileage, that the FTC effectively put them out of business.

Do you really think the FTC would let another company get away with making the same claims?

Explain how it is that you think E3 can get away with making these claims if they're so false.

Come on, let us hear it. Tell us all about how you're so much smarter than the FTC.

Splitfire plugs were popular as was marvel mystery oil as was slick 50 as was....

The burden of proof is on you my friend. You're emotionally attached to these cast little steel turds. Do you have any idea what could possibly make them work better than anything else? It's on you - not me. They're not popular. I have had cars come past me with $2,000 worth of CNC head port work. If people could pick up any measureable hp by replacing their spark plugs you'd think engine builders and tuners who have millions of dollars of R&D budget would have figured it out by now ;)

Again, since you've insulted me and made offensive remarks about my intelligence and have blown off any ounce of experience and qualification I have, the burden of proof is on you.

I've got my slippers on and a nice beer - let's get some reading material up here from a former retail car parts salesman just promise me you won't try and sell me a bottle of lucas oil additive at the end of your schpiel :rofl

[richinvan]

I've got my slippers on and a nice beer - let's get some reading material up here from a former retail car parts salesman just promise me you won't try and sell me a bottle of lucas oil additive at the end of your schpiel :rofl

And you continue to claim you're not insulting.
You're a jackass, plain and simple. I don't sell anything. I was a buyer. But of course you have no idea what the difference is. Surprise, yet again!

As someone said to me today: "Why do you even bother arguing with that guy? He has no life and he'll argue all day with you just to be right."

Lesson learned. Keep getting that post count up!

[5mall5nail5]

And you continue to claim you're not insulting.
You're a jackass, plain and simple. I don't sell anything. I was a buyer. But of course you have no idea what the difference is. Surprise, yet again!

As someone said to me today: "Why do you even bother arguing with that guy? He has no life and he'll argue all day with you just to be right."

Lesson learned. Keep getting that post count up!

You're very emotional. You need to take a step back. Prove me wrong or just stop posting. I know what a buyer is, and that doesn't make your opinion any more valid. Go build a car or something. Get your hands dirty. I have buyers at my job. We don't ask them what ICs to use on devices ;) That's why they're buyers.

That's funny btw because someone asked me whats up with the E3 spark plug thread and I mentioned richinvan is going on about how great they are and they said "Who?" :rofl

[richinvan]

Here's 1 of the 4 papers I had access to:

http://research.me.mtu.edu/project-view.php?id=310
Another was from MSU, one from GA Tech, and the last from the EPA itself.

http://www.e3sparkplugs.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Plug_Tests.jpg

If you know the difference between a salesman and a buyer, then you *were* being a jerk.

Like I said many times before, when I have the papers, I'll post them. End of story.

[5mall5nail5]

You linked to a project but I don't see a document to read. Perhaps I am missing it.


Then you linked to a flame propagation image from E3's website. Sigh. The ordinary plug looks more controlled and thorough btw which explains why many people running those E3 plugs complaing of poor idle and throttle transience.

[milKt]

I have this strange feeling that I'm missing out on something here.

Without me having to do ANY personal research into my answer :)
what is this E3 spark plug all about?

I have money to spend on mods.
I mean a lot of money :embarrasm
and I know that spark plugs are srs bsns.

[5mall5nail5]

I have this strange feeling that I'm missing out on something here.

Without me having to do ANY personal research into my answer :)
what is this E3 spark plug all about?

I have money to spend on mods.
I mean a lot of money. :embarrasm

And by a lot, you mean iron mountain boxes full. Cars full of boxes worth of money full of truck loads of E34 trunks of boxes of personal documents.

[GnarMachine]

The E3's are garbage. Just based purely on their low sales numbers and the amount of complaints easily viewed about them that they are of low quality. It's a "pep boys special" type part. Anyone making serious power won't be running them, or any other gimmicky multi electrode plug. This is the same voodoo stuff that is touted by those magical JDM spark enhancement boxes, electric system conditioners, etc.

Rich, I respect your research, but come on. No one uses these plugs because everyone with a high powered NA, forced induction, or other performance car has already figured out they have a more reliable and inexpensive solution by going with NGK coppers, iridiums, platinums, whatever.

[milKt]

Are the Pep boys from Italy?

[5mall5nail5]

The E3's are garbage. Just based purely on their low sales numbers and the amount of complaints easily viewed about them that they are of low quality. It's a "pep boys special" type part. Anyone making serious power won't be running them, or any other gimmicky multi electrode plug. This is the same voodoo stuff that is touted by those magical JDM spark enhancement boxes, electric system conditioners, etc.

Rich, I respect your research, but come on. No one uses these plugs because everyone with a high powered NA, forced induction, or other performance car has already figured out they have a more reliable and inexpensive solution by going with NGK coppers, iridiums, platinums, whatever.

http://www.snydertalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/atomic-explosion-2.jpg

[longwayhome23]

I don't know a blessed thing about spark plugs. But I do know a bit about evaluating evidence. Let's give Richinvan a chance to post the studies he referenced. Whenever I see a study (of any kind) that is focused on a product (such as whether or not cigarettes are addictive, or a diet supplement is effective, or whatever) the first things I want to know are:

1. Who commissioned and paid for the study?
2. Did they (the answer to question 1) have an economic interest in the outcome, or a political agenda? (Like "studies" on handguns commissioned by the Brady Center to Prevent Handgun Violence)?
3. Has the scientific study been subject to something akin to peer review?

Seems to me that only after getting answers to questions like that can we begin to draw conclusions about whether the studies are credible or just glorified sales material. Absent the studies, and a conclusion about their validity/authoritativeness, it must come down to everybody's anecdotes: "I tried them, and here's how it worked for me." Which is probably all OP was asking for. ;)


EDIT: Found this video on the E3 company's You Tube channel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62KavugC-5o Stacey David, a host of an automotive TV show, is the speaker who opens the video touting E3. He should (but doesn't) mention that E3 is one of the sponsors of his show, and is listed as such on his website at www.staceydavid.com (http://www.staceydavid.com). That's kind of like a stock analyst failing to mention he's got a long position in a stock he's recommending. As the video progresses, company spokesperson Steve Joiner says "We decided to team up with Michigan Technological University." So they approached the school, then commissioned and paid for the research that found their product was superior. In my view, that does not make the research automatically invalid -- but it certainly makes it highly suspect. Consultants and researchers don't normally bite the hand that feeds them.

Every industry does this. I'm a financial planner and investment advisor. There's a bill currently in the House Finance Committee that would establish a Self Regulatory Organization (probably FINRA) for financial advisors. Most advisors and the industry groups we belong to oppose this. Several of these groups commissioned a study by a consulting firm, which (big surprise) found the bill was a bad idea. Now, I think it really is a bad idea. But the outcome of the study was never in doubt. I think the same thing happened at Michigan Tech. Maybe the other studies are different. But this particular one hardly seems persuasive, based on these circumstances.


OK, butting out now, before someone feels the need to remind me that I'm a noob here. :rolleyes

[E34ührer]

Buy my ish...I tested it myself!!!

[DUDMD]

Only plugs I run are NGK V-Power copper plugs, in all my vehicles.

Doesn't matter if it's a stock m50/m52/m60/m62 that I have/had or a 656whp integra that is a street car (my brother's car).
$2 a pop.
None had any spark plug related problems and all get great gas mileage. Including the integra, drives like stock until you get on it, gets 32-35mpg on the freeway. Stock distributor,cheap spark plug wires, stock coil, stock honda ecu, NGK v-power plugs. Car makes 656whp at 28 lbs of boost and revs to 9600rpm without misfiring.

I refuse to buy any other brand of a spark plug. I'll spend $20 on gas to drive across city before getting an alternative brand for an auto parts store if they don't have NGK in stock.

[5mall5nail5]

Stacey David, a host of an automotive TV show, is the speaker who opens the video touting E3. He should (but doesn't) mention that E3 is one of the sponsors of his show, and is listed as such on his website at www.staceydavid.com (http://www.staceydavid.com). That's kind of like a stock analyst failing to mention he's got a long position in a stock he's recommending. As the video progresses, company spokesperson Steve Joiner says "We decided to team up with Michigan Technological University." So they approached the school, then commissioned and paid for the research that found their product was superior. In my view, that does not make the research automatically invalid -- but it certainly makes it highly suspect. Consultants and researchers don't normally bite the hand that feeds them.

Every industry does this. I'm a financial planner and investment advisor. There's a bill currently in the House Finance Committee that would establish a Self Regulatory Organization (probably FINRA) for financial advisors. Most advisors and the industry groups we belong to oppose this. Several of these groups commissioned a study by a consulting firm, which (big surprise) found the bill was a bad idea. Now, I think it really is a bad idea. But the outcome of the study was never in doubt. I think the same thing happened at Michigan Tech. Maybe the other studies are different. But this particular one hardly seems persuasive, based on these circumstances.


OK, butting out now, before someone feels the need to remind me that I'm a noob here. :rolleyes

I would just like to thank you for taking the time to objectively state this. This is precisely what I was talking about and why I asked Richinvan to, rather than quote videos/articles hosted/provided by several companies who are invested in the product.

I want to see true objective quantitative data justifying gains (which themselves are unclear)... but I think anyone here can agree that we won't see that.

[stang65]

I've been running e3 plugs in my jeep 4.0 that's modified. They have been in for about four months now going to pull them later this month and check them so far no plugs have lasted for more than five months finish my long block rebuild last month and the plugs are last to be replaced after a full fluid change axles to engine.

I'm intrested in this thread also cause the wagon is getting tune up soon and possible turner chip

[richinvan]

...but I think anyone here can agree that we won't see that.

Just like I said; it won't matter what studies I dig up, you've already closed your mind to it.

No one in their right mind thinks that mullethead Stacey David knows anything, and snail - I encourage you to state for the record that you believe the 2 other schools (oh, and the EPA - they have some interesting things to say as well in regards to improved emissions of small engines when using E3 over stock - go look it up yourself), Michigan State and Georgia Tech of capitulating to private industry and corrupting their long-standing scholarly history in order to, what? Take a couple bucks from a company?

Please - make that statement! Go ahead.

Regardless, I am half-way through searching through my old hard drives for the studies... we shall see if they turn up. If not, I've reached out to E3 for copies. Hopefully they'll reply.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1549180/BFC/HDD.JPG

[ClayGoo]

I have not used E3, but my experience with NGK has been poor tho. Unless the people at the parts counter kept giving me plugs that were too cold or what but I fouled out 2 sets of NGK's in 6 months before I switched back to Autolite and haven't had any issues since...

Again, my experience.

[Richardcranium]

I encourage you to state for the record that you believe the 2 other schools (oh, and the EPA - they have some interesting things to say as well in regards to improved emissions of small engines when using E3 over stock - go look it up yourself), Michigan State and Georgia Tech of capitulating to private industry and corrupting their long-standing scholarly history in order to, what? Take a couple bucks from a company?

Please - make that statement! Go ahead.



You are incredibly naive if you think the EPA, of all things isn't horribly, inexoribly corrupt, and those schools? Really?

All of the above can most certainly be linked to capitulating to private industry... long standing scholarly history.... bwahahahaha

So if nobody else will make that statement... I sure as heck will. You need to wake up dude.

[ChaosHawk]

I have been very happy with the Bosch supers (fr-7-ldc+ for a m50tu), but I would have bought NGKs if I had been able to find them in a timely manner. Back in the world of 2-stroke jet-ski and snowmobile engines, NGK was king for a reason. In an 80 pound engine than can put out 90+ horsepower and have a lifespan measured in hours, NGK plugs were the most reliable and resistant to fouling. We saw engines come back with every kind of plug imaginable, including Splitfire, but only the NGKs were consistently good enough to put back in after service.

On the technical aspect of things, plugs with multiple electrodes have only one real benefit: as one electrode wears the spark will migrate to the other, closer electrode, thus prolonging the plugs useable life. The downside of this is that the multiple electrodes will usually shroud the spark and divide it, preventing a single smooth continuous flamefront. The problem there is that multiple flamefronts or framefront collision causes shockwaves in random directions, stressing the engine through sideloading or component distortion. A piston that is rattling around is not providing optimal power. An optimal flamefront would start in the center of the combustion chamber and reach all surfaces at the same time. We can clearly see from the pictures so generously provided by E3 that they pretty much do exactly not that. Other issues aside, that one picture tells me they are a bad idea.

Also, I would like to add that while platinum and tungsten may make better electrodes than copper, size matters. No one heli-alc welds with a microscopic thread of tungsten, so why would one make a better spark plug? That big hunk of copper provides a nice stabilizing heat sink, and can take a lot more wear before it shows any loss of capacity, unlike the tiny slivers of exotic metals they like to overcharge us for. One thousandth wear on a sixty thou copper electrode is not bad, one thou on a ten thou platinum electrode is pretty significant. i have never had any luck with platinum plugs, and my truck specifically destroys them in weeks. I'll stick with the big chunk of copper, thank you.

[richinvan]

You are incredibly naive if you think the EPA, of all things isn't horribly, inexoribly corrupt, and those schools? Really?

All of the above can most certainly be linked to capitulating to private industry... long standing scholarly history.... bwahahahaha

So if nobody else will make that statement... I sure as heck will. You need to wake up dude.

Okay, since the same has been asked of me - please provide *factual* evidence of your statements.

[5mall5nail5]

So if nobody else will make that statement... I sure as heck will. You need to wake up dude.

*slow... steady clapping has commenced*


Okay, since the same has been asked of me - please provide *factual* evidence of your statements.

That's not how it works. I stated that they are a waste of money. That was my opening statement. You objected to that. I do not have to prove that they are a waste of money, you have to prove that they aren't. The burden of proof is on the objection. I have, still, provided reasons why they aren't worth their salt but all you can do is refer to documents that you do not have.

So rather than rely on research that you can't readily quote off-hand in detail, you are required, if you wish to continue arguing this topic, to prove why I am wrong. No one else needs to prove that we are right - you're the one that objected.

Seriously though - if they were even a fraction as effective as they claim we would see them in near-budget-less race teams use. F1 teams can blow a few dozen engines on a dyno to figure out their head gasket design, they can surely spend $60 and put these godplugs in and pick up power and economy. That's why they make everything out of inconel, titanium, carbon fiber, etc. - they want to do the most with the least. So, if there was even 1 hp on the table by means of these godplugs for $60 then they would surely have done it.

I have yet to read a single word of praise outside of a magazine or tv clip that is sponsored by the company. The only thing positive I read is on Amazon or similar to the effect of "They're spark plugs, I put them in my Corolla, seem to work ok". The end. You don't think people would be jumping on a promised gain for such little money and effort? Sheesh!

[Richardcranium]

Does ANYONE really require proof that the EPA is corrupt? Seriously?

[milKt]

EPA corruption is not the topic here.

Godplugs are amongs us,
preparing to spark our interest.

[5mall5nail5]

Does ANYONE really require proof that the EPA is corrupt? Seriously?

Apparently the FTC and EPA are straight arrows.

[richinvan]

You guys are hilarious. Go play with your tin foil hats and worry about how one of dem dere coloureds is gonna be president again.

I knew there were lots of morons around here, but mannnn... I didn't realize it was this bad.

When I have the reports to share, I will share.
In the interim, I will wait for factual information on the claims that Michigan State University, Georgia Tech University, the EPA and the FTC are all proven to be corrupt and biased.

You morons want to play this game? The rules work both ways. Put up, or shut up.

[Richardcranium]

Just for fun...

Here is your link to MSU as related to allegedly corrupt coal companies...
http://news.change.org/stories/will-michigan-state-university-stop-supporting-massey-energy-s-corrupt-coal-business

I got tired of looking for one about GT. Maybe as supporting evidence though, Georgia, one of the most corrupt states in the union, where in 2007-08 650 state employees took bribes from private business.
http://www.inquisitr.com/207460/the-8-most-corrupt-states-in-the-us/

If you seriously believe anything is beyond corruption these days, I really think you need to pay closer attention.

Regardless of the supposed "factual evidence", the consensus among users and consumers in general certainly does not seem to support the e3 as a leap forward in plug technology.

[richinvan]

Just for fun...

Here is your link to MSU as related to allegedly corrupt coal companies...
http://news.change.org/stories/will-michigan-state-university-stop-supporting-massey-energy-s-corrupt-coal-business

I got tired of looking for one about GT. Maybe as supporting evidence though, Georgia, one of the most corrupt states in the union, where in 2007-08 650 state employees took bribes from private business.
http://www.inquisitr.com/207460/the-8-most-corrupt-states-in-the-us/

If you seriously believe anything is beyond corruption these days, I really think you need to pay closer attention.

Regardless of the supposed "factual evidence", the consensus among users and consumers in general certainly does not seem to support the e3 as a leap forward in plug technology.

Hahhah what? So because MSU buys coal to power their power plant from a company that has issues elsewhere, that *proves* they're a corrupt university?

Wow... it's like you're not even trying. Seriously.

[Richardcranium]

The EPA is so corrupt, there are whole websites dedicated to it LOL
http://www.mostcorrupt.com/Agencies--EPA.htm

The FTC... same deal
http://pyramidschemealert.org/ftc-neglect-and-corruption/


I can hardly believe someone would come here and try to use the pure nature of our governemnt as supporting evidence for their argument, and WE are the morons?

I found links to support my position within minutes. Why is it so hard for the other side? What has it been...days?


Hahhah what? So because MSU buys coal to power their power plant from a company that has issues elsewhere, that *proves* they're a corrupt university?

Wow... it's like you're not even trying. Seriously.


Well honestly.... I AM NOT EVEN TRYING:rofl:

You act as though you havent already made a complete fool of yourself in this thread and, you need to try harder?

[5mall5nail5]

You guys are hilarious. Go play with your tin foil hats and worry about how one of dem dere coloureds is gonna be president again.

I knew there were lots of morons around here, but mannnn... I didn't realize it was this bad.

When I have the reports to share, I will share.
In the interim, I will wait for factual information on the claims that Michigan State University, Georgia Tech University, the EPA and the FTC are all proven to be corrupt and biased.

You morons want to play this game? The rules work both ways. Put up, or shut up.

I find it especially interesting that you've started out by calling me an ignorant idiot and have now digressed by claiming that everyone in here who doesn't agree with you is a moron. Must be a lonely world lol.

Find me one single high horsepower car running E3 spark plugs and promoting them that isn't sponsored by the company...go.

[richinvan]

The EPA is so corrupt, there are whole websites dedicated to it LOL
http://www.mostcorrupt.com/Agencies--EPA.htm

The FTC... same deal
http://pyramidschemealert.org/ftc-neglect-and-corruption/


I can hardly believe someone would come here and try to use the pure nature of our governemnt as supporting evidence for their argument, and WE are the morons?

I found links to support my position within minutes. Why is it so hard for the other side? What has it been...days?




Well honestly.... I AM NOT EVEN TRYING:rofl:

You act as though you havent already made a complete fool of yourself in this thread and, you need to try harder?


So you linked to more tinfoil hat garbage... what's next? 9/11 was an inside job?

Awesome.

Can't wait to see it.

[5mall5nail5]

So you linked to more tinfoil hat garbage... what's next? 9/11 was an inside job?

Awesome.

Can't wait to see it.

Do you only drive on one-way streets? You're defending BS claims by a spark plug manufacturer for god sake.

[richinvan]

I find it especially interesting that you've started out by calling me an ignorant idiot and have now digressed by claiming that everyone in here who doesn't agree with you is a moron. Must be a lonely world lol.

Find me one single high horsepower car running E3 spark plugs and promoting them that isn't sponsored by the company...go.


That's not the game here. I will provide the research papers when I have them. That's all you get. You'll come up with some reason why they're invalid.

The best part about this whole thing, Jon? I've had no less than SIX different people on here, all long-time E34 people, some of who are just as 'talented' as you... and they've all said the same thing:

"I don't know why you even bother. Jon's a dick, and he'll go day and all night."

My favourite though:
"You should hear what (famous turbo shop X) has to say about him."

So whatever. I'm done playing with you and your little fanbois.
I'll post the studies when I have them, and people can read them.

Well, people who are intelligent enough to understand big words and read graphs.

Cheers!

[Richardcranium]

So you linked to more tinfoil hat garbage... what's next? 9/11 was an inside job?

Awesome.

Can't wait to see it.


Well actually, most folks who have a problem with the FTC and EPA would not be in the "9/11 was an inside job" camp. Maybe stick to politics in your own country, your grasp of ours seems marginal at best.

Like I alluded to last post, maybe time to cut your losses here... the hole you are digging yourself is getting pretty deep.:eatpop:

[richinvan]

Well actually, most folks who have a problem with the FTC and EPA would not be in the "9/11 was an inside job" camp. Maybe stick to politics in your own country, your grasp of ours seems marginal at best.

Like I alluded to last post, maybe time to cut your losses here... the hole you are digging yourself is getting pretty deep.:eatpop:

Dual-citizen, chief.

You do your moniker proud.

[5mall5nail5]

That's not the game here. I will provide the research papers when I have them. That's all you get. You'll come up with some reason why they're invalid.

The best part about this whole thing, Jon? I've had no less than SIX different people on here, all long-time E34 people, some of who are just as 'talented' as you... and they've all said the same thing:

"I don't know why you even bother. Jon's a dick, and he'll go day and all night."

My favourite though:
"You should hear what (famous turbo shop X) has to say about him."

So whatever. I'm done playing with you and your little fanbois.
I'll post the studies when I have them, and people can read them.

Well, people who are intelligent enough to understand big words and read graphs.

Cheers!

Unless you quote names I don't believe nor care! Do you think I care what someone on the internet thinks? Its weird there are so many people who have the same talents as me but don't have a car or project near close to mine. Odd!

They're not my fanbois - I have no idea who these users are... but they oppose what you say, which I guess makes them morons right?

At the end of the day - why are you so mad?

So you don't actually know why E3 plugs are good, do you? You just want to quote some paper that you cherish - you don't actually have any capacity to describe or defend your mindset do you? PS you've "I'm done"-ed this argument like 6 times in the thread but you keep coming back to reinstate your opinion that we're all stupid and people on the internet hate me lol. Then tell them to stop PMing me for help!

Find me one high horsepower car (say 200 - 250 hp per liter) who runs E3 plugs and comes even close to recommending them. Go! How hard could it be? The godplugs are AMAZING. It's harder to find people who AREN'T satisfied with them, right?

[richinvan]

I ain't mad at all - I just think you're a sanctimonious jackass. You treat people around here who do things differently than you like they're inferior.

And I enjoy seeing you go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.

The crux of the argument is simple: you claim they are junk. I said they may have some credibility. All this HP crap, performance cars, and whatever else you blather on about all day long just muddies things.

I understand that you and your little ankle biters all think you're God's gift to forced induction... cool for you guys. It must feel special to be so cool on the Internet. Explains almost 40,000 posts.

Now run along - I'll provide the data when I have it to provide. The rest is just you wanting to go on and on and on and on and on and on and on.

[m60b30530i]

My Uncle bought a E3 plug for his weed wacker, damn motor nearly spun of the shaft.

Funny when I first saw this thread posted it was a innocent question asked by a respectable forum member. I simply clicked back saying to my self Jon once told me "stick with a single electrode and gap it yourself". :) I was going to post paging Jon ! but didn't think it was going to get this bad.



:eatpop:

[5mall5nail5]

I ain't mad at all - I just think you're a sanctimonious jackass. You treat people around here who do things differently than you like they're inferior.

And I enjoy seeing you go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.

The crux of the argument is simple: you claim they are junk. I said they may have some credibility. All this HP crap, performance cars, and whatever else you blather on about all day long just muddies things.

I understand that you and your little ankle biters all think you're God's gift to forced induction... cool for you guys. It must feel special to be so cool on the Internet. Explains almost 40,000 posts.

Now run along - I'll provide the data when I have it to provide. The rest is just you wanting to go on and on and on and on and on and on and on.

You're mad bro

But I'd be pretty mad to argue such nonsense from a standpoint with no personal credibility other than having been a buyer for a retail auto parts place :rofl

Whatever man, you win!!! You win the prize!!!


My Uncle bought a E3 plug for his weed wacker, damn motor nearly spun of the shaft.

Funny when I first saw this thread posted it was a innocent question asked by a respectable forum member. I simply clicked back saying to my self Jon once told me "stick with a single electrode and gap it yourself". :) I was going to post paging Jon ! but didn't think it was going to get this bad.



:eatpop:

But dude - he said 60 people on here have told him I am an idiot. So...

[m60b30530i]

You're mad bro

But I'd be pretty mad to argue such nonsense from a standpoint with no personal credibility other than having been a buyer for a retail auto parts place :rofl

Whatever man, you win!!! You win the prize!!!



But dude - he said 60 people on here have told him I am an idiot. So...

Those 60 people must be on something lol, I have read through your build threads you are a smart man and I would not question any advice you gave me. The attention to detail alone stuns me and proves your a knowledgeable guy. Just like the statement you posted above about F1 teams you too would be using the plug if it was a improvement.

[milKt]

Idiot's Rule.

[E34ührer]

This thread is hilarious. I have been researching plugs as of the past few days...

Finding-nothing good has been said online about E3's
Finding-that bugeye lookin flame E3's make is NOT a good thing
Finding-E3 sponsors a NASCAR team...which DOES NOT use E3 plugs...lol

Conclusion-I'll stick with what I have always used...but I DO feel a little better about NGK's now...


respectable forum member

:shifty You call me that again, we'ze gonna have problems. :flipa

[Porthos]

So how bout them Yankees?

[5mall5nail5]

Finding-E3 sponsors a NASCAR team...which DOES NOT use E3 plugs...lol

Isn't that great?

[GIANUCCI E30]

Man I over did it for dinner. I bought the family White Castles tonight. Oh GOD My Arse is ripe for a major Porcelin Meltdown.

My wife and I was sitting on the couch watching Cops on G4, right.
So She decides to be funny and let one rip.

Well to her surprise she had thought like Lit. "thought she had to fart and she had to schitz."

So she runs up the stairs to the bathroom only to find out the kids thought it would be cool to TP their bedroom.

As she screamed in utter satanic overtones for a roll look on her face was priceless.

Anyway. Screw Bosch, screw E3, Screw NGK... Gopher Power baby!!!!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_KmWgXYmoaIM/R9IoQy2twzI/AAAAAAAAASw/0TdP-Dzd76c/s400/beaver_3505-01.jpg

[Richardcranium]

You do your moniker proud.

You do realize that I chose it right?

So I figured it would be entertaining to push your buttons.... it has been for all I think;)

[E34ührer]

You do realize that I chose it right?

So I figured it would be entertaining to push your buttons.... it has been for all I think;)

It's ok...he is a dual citizen anyways. He can't decide on his moniker, so he tarnishes BOTH...

[Porthos]

Man I over did it for dinner. I bought the family White Castles tonight. Oh GOD My Arse is ripe for a major Porcelin Meltdown.

My wife and I was sitting on the couch watching Cops on G4, right.
So She decides to be funny and let one rip.

Well to her surprise she had thought like Lit. "thought she had to fart and she had to schitz."

So she runs up the stairs to the bathroom only to find out the kids thought it would be cool to TP their bedroom.

As she screamed in utter satanic overtones for a roll look on her face was priceless.

Anyway. Screw Bosch, screw E3, Screw NGK... Gopher Power baby!!!!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_KmWgXYmoaIM/R9IoQy2twzI/AAAAAAAAASw/0TdP-Dzd76c/s400/beaver_3505-01.jpg
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/003/758/Rape-Ewok-PREPARE-YOUR-ANUS.jpg

[GIANUCCI E30]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/003/758/Rape-Ewok-PREPARE-YOUR-ANUS.jpg

Well that was last night... I'm good today.

But last night.... WHOO!!!!!!

My anus was a weapon of mass destruction. the city sewer system won't be right for another two weeks

[richinvan]

It's ok...he is a dual citizen anyways. He can't decide on his moniker, so he tarnishes BOTH...

That word you used... doesn't mean what you think it means.

In other news, I should have the papers by the end of the day.
All you little wussy ankle biters can go run along now.

[5mall5nail5]

That word you used... doesn't mean what you think it means.

In other news, I should have the papers by the end of the day.
All you little wussy ankle biters can go run along now.

U mad sunface

[RVAE34]

This thread first made me sleepy. But now it brings the lolz.

[S38B36]

Wow, I see the use of ad hominem fallacious arguments are alive and well on this forum.
If I've got this right, here's the breakdown after four pages of name calling:

Snail said E3 plugs do not provide any benefit to performance
Rich said they do according to study X (which is still absent for review)
Instead of waiting for the study to materialize, Rich decides to attack the claimant through at least two pages of direct personal name calling in what can only be described as a display of frustration or a deliberate attempt to win a debate with a word hammer

I'm actually interested in seeing the study. I'd like to know what alternatives are out there and if any provide benefits over OEM. What needs to stay in the parking lot, especially from an engineer, is useless name calling rising from ego fueled anger.

[RVAE34]

I would also like to see more than one study that supports any claims.

[RVAE34]

And less double posts :D

[GIANUCCI E30]

This thread first made me sleepy. But now it brings the lolz.


Exactly... time to put up or shut up boys...

Rich get your paperwork together.

Jon... get your research compiled


Let's make this a good clean debate.
Here's the rules boys:



1. Facts/ research data from both parties must be researchable or scanned
for all to see. We want hard facts gentlemen.
Opinions wheither it be the from the poster or within their data will not count.

2. Once the facts are on the table the only parties who will post will be Jon, Richie or the OP if he wishes.
Comments from the peanut gallery (that includes me :D) will be entertained after the fact disclosure and debate is finished.

3. You both get 3 posts each after the facts or research data has been presented.

4. No schitz talking or name calling.

5. No editing posts whatever is said stays said. If you forget or need to rephrase something to make you post crystal.
Do it before you post it.

Lastly this is a friendly event.
All personal feelings wheither it's cockiness, animosity, napoleon complexities
or secret plots to ring a posters door bell, say hello and commence to bash their teeth in will not be tolerated... do it on your own time.

Take it away Michael...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEvHzx-nal0&feature=related

[longwayhome23]

Wow, I see the use of ad hominem fallacious arguments are alive and well on this forum.

I'm actually interested in seeing the study. I'd like to know what alternatives are out there and if any provide benefits over OEM. What needs to stay in the parking lot, especially from an engineer, is useless name calling rising from ego fueled anger.

Well said. What this thread needs is a chaperone! I too would look forward to more info and less acrimony.

@Gianucci: Though I'd be interested in plots involving doorbells and teeth bashing too. "Gearheads Gone Wild." Might make a marketable video. lol

[GIANUCCI E30]

Well said. What this thread needs is a chaperone! I too would look forward to more info and less acrimony.

look one post down :D

FYI everyone rule no#2.

[janders211]

I haven't seen any proof, or independent scientific testing showing that E3 plugs offer anything.

I have heard that Ferrari uses them OEM in the FXX though.









:teeth

[GIANUCCI E30]

I haven't seen any proof, or independent scientific testing showing that E3 plugs offer anything.

I have heard that Ferrari uses them OEM in the FXX though.









:teeth

I haven't seen any proof, or independent scientific testing showing that E3 plugs offer anything.

I have heard that Ferrari uses them OEM in the FXX though.









:teeth

:shifty Errr. josh. rule no#2... oh hell with it.

I was trying to clear the mud and let these guys give their data. but whatever happens happens.

[richinvan]

Wow, I see the use of ad hominem fallacious arguments are alive and well on this forum.
If I've got this right, here's the breakdown after four pages of name calling:

Snail said E3 plugs do not provide any benefit to performance
Rich said they do according to study X (which is still absent for review)
Instead of waiting for the study to materialize, Rich decides to attack the claimant through at least two pages of direct personal name calling in what can only be described as a display of frustration or a deliberate attempt to win a debate with a word hammer

I'm actually interested in seeing the study. I'd like to know what alternatives are out there and if any provide benefits over OEM. What needs to stay in the parking lot, especially from an engineer, is useless name calling rising from ego fueled anger.

You actually missed the part where Jon made a point of saying quite clearly that he "wasn't buying it" and that they were "crud" after I said there were studies showing otherwise.

Anyone who thinks so highly of himself that he thinks he knows better than University scientists who perform controlled testing and experiments deserves to be treated like an idiot. I've read them; they exist.

That's where it began. Jon thinks he knows better. Well, unlike his little turbo kiddy fan club, I will call him out on his bullshit. It's typical of him to respond like this instead of just saying, "well, I'll just wait to see the info before commenting further." He MUST be right. At all times. No matter what.

Go read the posts. They're right there.

It doesn't matter though - I should have the info from one of their engineers by the end of the day, if he gets back to me. I'll post them all, and he can spend as much time as he'd like attempting to discredit them. Which he will. He's as transparent as glass.

[janders211]

Anyone who thinks so highly of himself that he thinks he knows better than University scientists who perform controlled testing and experiments deserves to be treated like an idiot. I should have the info from one of their engineers by the end of the day, if he gets back to me. I'll post them all, and he can spend as much time as he'd like attempting to discredit them. Which he will.
Unless I am reading something wrong- that wasn't independent testing. E3 paid them to test their product...and a random picture of a flame is hardly quantitative proof of any benefit.

I know lots of work done by University scientists that turns out to be wrong (mostly unintentional)....that's why science depends on peer review, independent verification and validation. Any data that only comes from one source (that is inherently biased- especially if it is by a group hired by someone selling a product to consumers for a profit), and hasn't been repeated by others isn't really amazing.

I don't know how many studies at Universites funded by large companies show positive results (positive results tend to beget more funding from said source), that are later refuted, or downright proven wrong by outside sources, but it is not a small number.

[RVAE34]

Turbo kiddy fan club lol. Try looking through the FI section. That's were some of the smartest members on bf.c are. I have a turbo E34 am not one of those smartest people and therefore am still intimidated by the FI section. To say Jon is an idiot and doesn't know what he is talking about is in itself idiotic though. He knows a $hit ton and that's not subjective, that's a fact. If that wasn't the case, he would have been run off from FI a long time ago. Now since I haven't seen this amazing study, I will reserve judgment of whether he is right or not. But in my 7 years on this forum, he is more often right than not.

I am also curious why Georgia Tech would spend time on such a study for no other reason than just to test. I would find it hard to believe the company itself didn't offer any financial support on such a study. Again though, that is just my opinion and has sparked my curiosity. Let's see the study.

[5mall5nail5]

Josh you're not misreading. E3 funded research at a university who, lo and behold, found their plugs to be miracles in a box...supposedly. You are absolutely correct in considering that test not "independent".

What is comical is how Rich thinks I am so stupid and an idiot because I think these spark plugs are crap. I have seen and used them first hand with no gains being observed. Did I run my test in a vacuum chamber? No, I ran them for a few thousand miles and saw what looked like detonation on the plugs and swapped them out for colder plugs. But that's the point - if I am going to pay 3x as much for a plug that is oh-so-amazing then I shouldn't have to run a test in a vacuum it should smack me across the face with the gains, right? I mean, if there is so much to be gained in economy and power, how come I missed it and how come everyone else is missing it?

If we could get 0.5 mpg gain and 15 hp improvement by running $60 plugs instead of $20 plugs, then bring it on!

Unfortunately Rich thinks I am opposed to progress and evolution (maybe he missed me conceding NV heads are not that great and that I am building another vanos engine... he obviously knows ALL about me... he has falsely evaluated my personality about 3 dozen times now). If I can take my 31 mpg car to 32 mpg or 33 mpg or more, then I would. Especially for only $60. That is less than me crawling around replacing fuel filters, etc. I can change spark plugs on an M50 in under 5 minutes. If I could pick up tangible, real, independently confirmed testing, power and economy by just changing plugs then why the hell wouldn't I?

Seriously Rich, as someone who pursues adding power and reliability to my car, if I could swap out something so simple as a spark plug and experience indisputable gains then I would. If companies could drop in these godplugs and pick up economy and power, they would. What sense does that make?

The best part is that you keep referencing these elusive studies... if they are so disproving of skeptics then why the heck can't the public just jump on their website and view them? If I was selling a magnet that improves fuel mileage when strapped around a fuel line and I had bonified MIT research confirming it, I would post that damned article dead smack on the top of my web page. Yet here we are, allegedly waiting for Rich to hear back from some dude about a paper that says some things that Rich can't even paraphrase... its a bunch of bologna and thus I stand by my original statement: they are a waste of money.

Gianucci: I have no data to collect on E3 plugs. They didn't click me over or push my car to the edge of the universe. I also don't need to compile data - my data is compiled for me by the biased labs who were paid by E3 to do research. The biggest lab in the world says they don't do anything noticeable - that lab is called the public. But, given all of the failure of E3 plugs (seriously when you consider how unpopular the E3s are yet how many fail ... the results are staggering) it seems like E3 used the global market as their true research facility.

The best part is that the tests seems to be performed on a 2v head with slow flame propagation to begin with and is in no way related to our more advanced multi valve heads. Thus, again, a waste of money. I am not greedy - I will pay 3x+ what I do for spark plugs but please let me see an increase in hp or performance of more than an alleged fraction of a mpg. Not to mention that guys were saying the plugs themselves had to be replaced more often than a convention 1970s autolite copper plug. The burden of proof is on the objection.

[GnarMachine]

You actually missed the part where Jon made a point of saying quite clearly that he "wasn't buying it" and that they were "crud" after I said there were studies showing otherwise.

Anyone who thinks so highly of himself that he thinks he knows better than University scientists who perform controlled testing and experiments deserves to be treated like an idiot. I've read them; they exist.

That's where it began. Jon thinks he knows better. Well, unlike his little turbo kiddy fan club, I will call him out on his bullshit. It's typical of him to respond like this instead of just saying, "well, I'll just wait to see the info before commenting further." He MUST be right. At all times. No matter what.

Go read the posts. They're right there.

It doesn't matter though - I should have the info from one of their engineers by the end of the day, if he gets back to me. I'll post them all, and he can spend as much time as he'd like attempting to discredit them. Which he will. He's as transparent as glass.

You've basically made this thread into a personal argument with some guy you probably don't know but dislike on the internet. Anyone that agrees with him (which is everyone, because this is a shitty product that everyone in the automotive world agrees is shit) is part of his fan club. If anyone agreed with you they would be "smart" right? Oh well, just keep calling everyone a moron in an attempt to get back at someone who disagrees with you when your only evidence is a study that was paid for by the manufacturer.

This moron will keep his car running well by keeping E3's gimmick plugs out of it.

[JCSe34m30]

Why did this topic turn into such a big deal? I get plugs are a big deal, but why did the disagreement get so heated? Rich why did you take such exception to 5small 5snails opinion? Wouldn't you be less stressed by just saying whatever, I've heard they work and be done?

To be honest I tried them in my '91 mustang, It's N/ A, stock long block, bolt on everything.. Seemed better at first, then slowly, just under a year and 1k miles, car began to idle rough, and break up under load. I chased my tail, pulled plugs to do compression test and found heat cracks in ground strap.. So it's back to auto lite copper.. And an improved idle.

[GIANUCCI E30]

Gianucci: I have no data to collect on E3 plugs. They didn't click me over or push my car to the edge of the universe. I also don't need to compile data - my data is compiled for me by the biased labs who were paid by E3 to do research. The biggest lab in the world says they don't do anything noticeable - that lab is called the public. But, given all of the failure of E3 plugs (seriously when you consider how unpopular the E3s are yet how many fail ... the results are staggering) it seems like E3 used the global market as their true research facility.


I'm not part of this debate on these plugs and honestly don't care. I don't use them and I rarely stray from brands I've trusted and used over the years in all my cars. TBH I never heard of them till now.

IIC The purpose of this thread is fact finding comparisons. To inform not give opinions. If public opinion is what you got. Then list the sources compile them as a case study, and present them as fact. No thesis is needed in this case. Just link it all up.

For it's not just about you and rich. Those of less knowledge would like to see it as well.

[S38B36]

You actually missed the part where Jon made a point of saying quite clearly that he "wasn't buying it" and that they were "crud" after I said there were studies showing otherwise.

Now I'm putting my debate hat on. This statement has a huge problem, that being you are refuting a claim based on nothing. You claim a study supports your position but offer no data, plausible logical position or argument that substantiates your statement. Snail basically said I don't agree with your advice, he's used the products and hasn't noticed anything special about them.


Anyone who thinks so highly of himself that he thinks he knows better than University scientists who perform controlled testing and experiments deserves to be treated like an idiot. I've read them; they exist.

Okay, and now I'm a NASA scientist that says otherwise. Or I'm Carrol Shelby or Mahatma Ghandi or any number of other people with credentials that extend to the end of the internet. Obviously, you know I'm full of it. You wouldn't accept any claim like that without proof. That's all that has been asked of you. You say studies exist that support your claim. Great. Show us.


That's where it began. Jon thinks he knows better. Well, unlike his little turbo kiddy fan club, I will call him out on his bullshit. It's typical of him to respond like this instead of just saying, "well, I'll just wait to see the info before commenting further." He MUST be right. At all times. No matter what.

No, what you've done is a textbook ad homeniem attack making claims that the person arguing with you is wrong based on the alleged notion that he is a bad person. Bad or not those two don't add up. You said a study is out there that supports your claim. Then you went on to say that anyone willing to be a skeptic, including Snail, are idiots because we haven't seen the data you have access to and, up to this point, been unable to show. You are asking everyone here to believe you based on credentials that are vaporous. It's not that I don't believe you; I don't have any way to verify what you're saying.


Go read the posts. They're right there.

I did.


It doesn't matter though - I should have the info from one of their engineers by the end of the day, if he gets back to me. I'll post them all, and he can spend as much time as he'd like attempting to discredit them. Which he will. He's as transparent as glass.

Okay, this is BS too. If your study is solid, then anyone reading it will agree and those that don't will look foolish. If the data is there, and doesn't look contrived why would Snail, me or anybody on this forum argue with it. Like other posters have stated here already, if these plugs are the cat's meow, why would we be against better mileage and HP? You're loading the debate and looking damn shady. If you suspect either the source or content of your data then say so. Because what you appear to be doing is attempting to attack Snail's rebuttal to your data before you present it. If you can successfully argue against yourself with the position you intend to take, then rethink what you are doing before stepping on your schwang.

[dohcdoh]

dont know what the end of the day is there but its 8:07pm here. Im about ready to call this. Kinda sad we didnt get to see this vaporware.

[mckchr67]

All I know is if the plug brand works in high HP N/A or FI cars I'll use the equivalent of what the big names use at the appropriate grade depending on my needs. I have yet to see on all the boards I am on, someone reputable, running these plugs... Real life/broad based experience talks, some study means nothing to me personally... I guess I follow the book of Jon.. lol

[GIANUCCI E30]

Snail basically said I don't agree with your advice, he's used the products and hasn't noticed anything special about them.

Not putting any fuel to the fire.
But unless I missed it.

IIRC Jon hasn't used them (E3 plugs) and would not attempt to do so.

It's kind of why I hinted, for crystal clear imformation purposes only, Jon and Rich should be the only ones posting till the facts are on the table. We just wait for the facts and judge for ourselves.


All I know is if the plug brand works in high HP N/A or FI cars I'll use the equivalent of what the big names use at the appropriate grade depending on my needs. I have yet to see on all the boards I am on, someone reputable, running these plugs... Real life/broad based experience talks, some study means nothing to me personally... I guess I follow the book of Jon.. lol

I follow the book of proverbs.:D

(little jokey joke there)

[S38B36]

What is comical is how Rich thinks I am so stupid and an idiot because I think these spark plugs are crap. I have seen and used them first hand with no gains being observed. Did I run my test in a vacuum chamber? No, I ran them for a few thousand miles and saw what looked like detonation on the plugs and swapped them out for colder plugs. But that's the point - if I am going to pay 3x as much for a plug that is oh-so-amazing then I shouldn't have to run a test in a vacuum it should smack me across the face with the gains, right? I mean, if there is so much to be gained in economy and power, how come I missed it and how come everyone else is missing it?

Here's an excerpt from the passage where he stated that he's tried them out before (emphasis mine). No offense taken, friend.

[GIANUCCI E30]

Here's an excerpt from the passage where he stated that he's tried them out before (emphasis mine). No offense taken, friend.


no worries... I did miss it. Carry on :D

[CO535i]

No offense taken, friend.

He's not your friend Buddy!:D


12:22 MST here.

[richinvan]

The engineer hasn't sent them to me yet.
Heaven forbid people don't get back to people they don't know and have sent an email request within a day.

When I get new copies of them, I'll post them. That's all I can do.
I know what I've read; I know what I've seen. I know that in the spark plug market, companies can not make these claims without the testing to verify it; it's a "deceptive trade practise" to do otherwise. If they were snake oil... why haven't they been sued yet? Why hasn't the FTC slapped them down? It happened to Splitfire... which sold a LOT more plugs than these guys ever did.

Until I get copies of them, I won't be participating in this little shit show any longer.

When I get them, I'll post them. End of story.

Did I go too far? Probably; we've gone through this before, he and I - and it almost got both of us banned.

I apologize to him for letting him get my goat and behaving inappropriately in return.

I'll behave a little more appropriately in the future, and let the facts speak for themselves.

[Richardcranium]

Until I get copies of them, I won't be participating in this little shit show any longer.



You seem like a "last word" kinda guy to me. Good Luck

[E34ührer]

why haven't they been sued yet?

Because no one uses them. Gotta have customers to get sued.

Bottom line here Mr Rich...we don't have our noses up Jons ass. He just happens to know more than a lot of people here. Now, if that fact makes you angry, then by all means continue on...but the fact that you so easily throw him under the bus over a spark plug, tells me everything I need to know about you and your 'papers'...we are averaging a page a day right now...it's been 4 days...you have yet to produce ANYTHING other than empty claims, and insulting people.

[dohcdoh]

He's not your friend Buddy!:D


12:22 MST here.

hes not your buddy, Chief! :D

[GIANUCCI E30]

He's not your friend Buddy!:D


12:22 MST here.


hes not your buddy, Chief! :D


Hey hey hey. I have no ill feelings toward anyone. If we get along, we get along. If we don't we don't. It is what it is.

Now I know I'm and can be an Arsehole.
But my knowing this makes me more approachable and authentic. :D

[richinvan]

Because no one uses them. Gotta have customers to get sued.

Bottom line here Mr Rich...we don't have our noses up Jons ass. He just happens to know more than a lot of people here. Now, if that fact makes you angry, then by all means continue on...but the fact that you so easily throw him under the bus over a spark plug, tells me everything I need to know about you and your 'papers'...we are averaging a page a day right now...it's been 4 days...you have yet to produce ANYTHING other than empty claims, and insulting people.

The engineer hasn't sent them to me yet.
Heaven forbid people don't get back to people they don't know and have sent an email request within a day.

When I get new copies of them, I'll post them. That's all I can do.
I know what I've read; I know what I've seen. I know that in the spark plug market, companies can not make these claims without the testing to verify it; it's a "deceptive trade practise" to do otherwise. If they were snake oil... why haven't they been sued yet? Why hasn't the FTC slapped them down? It happened to Splitfire... which sold a LOT more plugs than these guys ever did.

Until I get copies of them, I won't be participating in this little shit show any longer.

When I get them, I'll post them. End of story.

Did I go too far? Probably; we've gone through this before, he and I - and it almost got both of us banned.

I apologize to him for letting him get my goat and behaving inappropriately in return.

I'll behave a little more appropriately in the future, and let the facts speak for themselves.


You seem like a "last word" kinda guy to me. Good Luck

The engineer hasn't sent them to me yet.
Heaven forbid people don't get back to people they don't know and have sent an email request within a day.

When I get new copies of them, I'll post them. That's all I can do.
I know what I've read; I know what I've seen. I know that in the spark plug market, companies can not make these claims without the testing to verify it; it's a "deceptive trade practise" to do otherwise. If they were snake oil... why haven't they been sued yet? Why hasn't the FTC slapped them down? It happened to Splitfire... which sold a LOT more plugs than these guys ever did.

Until I get copies of them, I won't be participating in this little shit show any longer.

When I get them, I'll post them. End of story.

Did I go too far? Probably; we've gone through this before, he and I - and it almost got both of us banned.

I apologize to him for letting him get my goat and behaving inappropriately in return.

I'll behave a little more appropriately in the future, and let the facts speak for themselves.

[RVAE34]

dejavu

[richinvan]

dejavu

Apparently people seem to have missed it.

[GnarMachine]

Apparently people seem to have missed it.

:rolleyes

[CO535i]

Hey hey hey. I have no ill feelings toward anyone. If we get along, we get along. If we don't we don't. It is what it is.

Now I know I'm and can be an Arsehole.
But my knowing this makes me more approachable and authentic. :D

No it wasn't you at all. The text was recalling the Southpark Endless Canadian Argument. . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5uzJVkeaUI


Oh what a coincidence, it is similar to this thread. . . .:D

[Sparke34]

Oh what a coincidence, it is similar to this thread. . . .:D

This is what I love about this place, so many characters. Free entertainment.:lol

[dohcdoh]

aww, embedding disabled

[Richardcranium]

Anyone who thinks so highly of himself that he thinks he knows better than University scientists who perform controlled testing and experiments deserves to be treated like an idiot. I've read them; they exist.

Well.... nobody here but you has seen these reports for one thing. For another, you are incedibly naive when it comes to putting your reputation on the line using "scientists at universities". Wouldn't this be the same group that brought us global warming? They lied about that for years but you want to belive they did the right thing when they were paid to test spark plugs?

^^^That right there is funny no matter who you are:lol



It doesn't matter though - I should have the info from one of their engineers by the end of the day, if he gets back to me. I'll post them all, and he can spend as much time as he'd like attempting to discredit them. Which he will. He's as transparent as glass.

Closing in rapidly now on the one week mark..... So far not one shred of evidence, just name calling. Maybe you should try politics.

[GIANUCCI E30]

No it wasn't you at all. The text was recalling the Southpark Endless Canadian Argument. . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5uzJVkeaUI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONqYuqWY8iM)


Oh what a coincidence, it is similar to this thread. . . .:D

:D

[E34ührer]

Apparently people seem to have missed it.

No one missed it...but I did read something interesting...I read a case study that says you are full of crap...it was performed by the BF.c labs and paid for by the 5nail5/Mean coalition against stupidity. I just can't find the paper on my hard drive...it's TOTALLY legit!

Also, why are these papers so hard to find? If they are the end-all-be-all case study for E3 plugs, why aren't they on display? Why can't I search for them at GT or Michigan's website? Why is it you are the only soul on earth that supports these things?

[Richardcranium]

No one missed it...but I did read something interesting...I read a case study that says you are full of crap...it was performed by the BF.c labs and paid for by the 5nail5/Mean coalition against stupidity. I just can't find the paper on my hard drive...it's TOTALLY legit!

Also, why are these papers so hard to find? If they are the end-all-be-all case study for E3 plugs, why aren't they on display? Why can't I search for them at GT or Michigan's website? Why is it you are the only soul on earth that supports these things?


You have to be in the super secret parts buyers club to see them....

If they posted them for normal folks we would have already dismissed the product. This guy may be the only person on the planet still trying to push for these plugs. I think they are paying him, after all this is great PR here:rolleyes

[richinvan]

Do you remember when snail told me to show some class?

I apologized.

I suggest you 2 do the same. Show some fucking class.
People have jobs - they don't get back to requests right away. When I get new copies, I'll post them. End of story.

But, by all means - keep going. Bothers me absolutely 0%. In fact, it just shows how childish you are.

[GIANUCCI E30]

Ok children.

Put the rocks down and get out the sandbox before someone gets hurt.

[NedMW]

Do you have a build thread Mean?

[93FIM5]

Wow guys let him find his research and try to stick to his pledge to handle this in a more respectful manner maybe well all learn something no reason to gang up on him.

[E34ührer]

LoL! I'm flattered...

I have never made a build thread because I don't feel that my car is noteworthy...and because I never know if I should really detail every little thing I have done to this car.

Short list:

(old) Dinan chip
OBDII headers
OEM cat to magnaflow res...to magnaflow muffler
RD front strut bar
ACS springs
billie sports
Dinan 3 way sway front/2 way rear
e32 'il' brakes---po installed
M5 plate filler
1994+ tow covers
ellipsoid headlights
1994+ side skirts
mudflaps
euro trims
'custom' ssk
S3.46 LSD (not installed QUITE yet)
poly bushings EVERYWHERE
16" E38 style 5's
Conti DWS
'home depot' lip
H1 E32 frenched fogs with no lenses
E36 ///M steering wheel
rear map lights
rear cig lighter
custom garage door opener (push the 'phone' button on the wiper stalk)
hidden radar/laser (center dash grill)
hidden g-meter (center dash grill)
Alpine CDA-9XXX head unit (don't recall which number)
MBQ Q-series 2 way components W/musicomp x-overs
Focal access coax rears
JBL 12" sub
custom 'oem style' spare tire well sub box
hidden PG ZX500 sub amp
hidden PG ZX475Ti 4 channel
LG G2X Android phone (running CM9 ICS with the 'no phone' mod) as a media center

I think that is roughly it...

forgot shadow line and illuminated start button...also I had the water manifold, trans, diff and oil manifold mod'd for gauge senders...I just haven't ran the wiring and placed the gauges...

OH! and I am working on an 'old school' type of diff cooler...kinda like the E12-based E24's have...not really going to gain me anything...but it's been a fun little project!

[richinvan]

Wow guys let him find his research and try to stick to his pledge to handle this in a more respectful manner maybe well all learn something no reason to gang up on him.

Thank you.
I mean, people honestly think I'm either a shill or am making it up? Let's use some logic here.

People forget that you usually have to pay to access scholarly research - so it's not quite as easy as going to Google or the university website and searching.

Did I behave inappropriately? I've already said so. And apologized for it. The end.

When I get them, I'll share them.

[E34ührer]

People forget that you usually have to pay to access scholarly research - so it's not quite as easy as going to Google or the university website and searching

Really? I mean...REALLY??!!!

MSU has a quite extensive online collection of both engineering school projects of current/past as well as a Engine Research Laboratory unit that is equally documented online. Neither of these sections of the school list E3 on any project...one could take that to mean one of two things...

-results were purchased

OR

-they are ashamed to have their name on the study

...either way...I'm still in for results...if I/we/99.999998% of BF.c is wrong, I will GLADLY eat my words...lol

[NedMW]

LoL! I'm flattered...

I have never made a build thread because I don't feel that my car is noteworthy...and because I never know if I should really detail every little thing I have done to this car.

Short list:

(old) Dinan chip
OBDII headers
OEM cat to magnaflow res...to magnaflow muffler
RD front strut bar
ACS springs
billie sports
Dinan 3 way sway front/2 way rear
e32 'il' brakes---po installed
M5 plate filler
1994+ tow covers
ellipsoid headlights
1994+ side skirts
mudflaps
euro trims
'custom' ssk
S3.46 LSD (not installed QUITE yet)
poly bushings EVERYWHERE
16" E38 style 5's
Conti DWS
'home depot' lip
H1 E32 frenched fogs with no lenses
E36 ///M steering wheel
rear map lights
rear cig lighter
custom garage door opener (push the 'phone' button on the wiper stalk)
hidden radar/laser (center dash grill)
hidden g-meter (center dash grill)
Alpine CDA-9XXX head unit (don't recall which number)
MBQ Q-series 2 way components W/musicomp x-overs
Focal access coax rears
JBL 12" sub
custom 'oem style' spare tire well sub box
hidden PG ZX500 sub amp
hidden PG ZX475Ti 4 channel
LG G2X Android phone (running CM9 ICS with the 'no phone' mod) as a media center

I think that is roughly it...

forgot shadow line and illuminated start button...also I had the water manifold, trans, diff and oil manifold mod'd for gauge senders...I just haven't ran the wiring and placed the gauges...

OH! and I am working on an 'old school' type of diff cooler...kinda like the E12-based E24's have...not really going to gain me anything...but it's been a fun little project!

Questions -

What are the OBDII headers off? Any fitment issues?

Love the iL brakes/religious use of poly/e38 weaves/all the little trim bits (M5, skirts, etc.)

More info on the SSK?

A thread would be really good, as I have more pictures of your car saved than anyone else's!

[E34ührer]

Questions -

What are the OBDII headers off? Any fitment issues?

Love the iL brakes/religious use of poly/e38 weaves/all the little trim bits (M5, skirts, etc.)

More info on the SSK?

A thread would be really good, as I have more pictures of your car saved than anyone else's!

Answers-

My headers are off of an E36 328i...not sure of year. To make it work you have to weld the aux. air injection port and block off the extra O2 sensor holes with block plugs. Other than that, pretty much a bolt on...

I like teh OEM mods when they are applicable.

The SSK is just my stock shifter that I took out and rewelded/bent to resemble the E60 ssk you can get at the dealer. Really practicing TIG work more than anything...

Again, I am flattered...I suppose I could make a build thread. Like I said, I have never bothered because I make my cars 'mine' and I don't care for all the negativity from the guys that have much more money and time than me. Plus, it's just a 3000-mile-a-month DD...but thank you.

[janders211]

Wouldn't this be the same group that brought us global warming? They lied about that for years ...
The scientific community(including myself) actually agrees (over 80- more likely 90% of PhD holding scientists) that global warming is occuring and partially human induced.


/unrelated but E3 spark plugs are a product of a shell company of Fox News (agreed upon by 0.001% of the scientific community).

[E34ührer]

(agreed upon by 0.001% of the scientific community).

So BF.cE34, as a whole is ALMOST as accurate as the 'scientific community'? That is pretty damn cool.

[janders211]

People forget that you usually have to pay to access scholarly research - so it's not quite as easy as going to Google or the university website and searching.

Most unbiased (government grant funded) is 'open access' these days- aka you don't have to pay for it.


When I get them, I'll share them.
we await!


So BF.cE34, as a whole is ALMOST as accurate as the 'scientific community'? That is pretty damn cool.

You are 100% correct (50% of the time statistically, asssuming a pvalue of 0.9)!

[jehu]

Yep - a lot of people have been running them in NA motors too. They have a pretty high percentage of the tip getting hot and essentially becoming a glow plug :rofl



This guy thought his looked pretty ordinary:



Mmmm





Melted down electrode

Turns out all those sharp edges in the combustion chamber become hot spots :rolleyes

Gets better...


http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Duster_2-400s/E3/crackThruNwarp.jpg

Cracking!



So that was fun


How about another yet:



Everyone of those cars above had been running NGK racing plugs. The demolished ones in the last image were 7k miles old and same temp range as the NGKs which they replaced.

So, whatever, you be the judge. I am no engineer (as richinvan has pointed out) but I think anyone worth their salt will tell you sharp edges in a comp chamber is bad ;)

Those things look retarted... I like what the Denso iridium does which is about as far opposite that mosntrosity as you can get..
http://www.oakos.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/iridiumtip.jpg

[clevertd]

http://www.tvweek.com/2008/12/05/TNTStory_TNTGoldLogo.jpg

[dohcdoh]

^someone change the tnt to bfc. Please!

[GnarMachine]

Thank you.
I mean, people honestly think I'm either a shill or am making it up? Let's use some logic here.

People forget that you usually have to pay to access scholarly research - so it's not quite as easy as going to Google or the university website and searching.

Did I behave inappropriately? I've already said so. And apologized for it. The end.

When I get them, I'll share them.

If you have an idea of what research catalogs might have the info on these plugs let me know and I will search for it, I have access to pretty much every available university level catalog and research database.

[K Fox]

^someone change the tnt to bfc. Please!

Here - quick and dirty so no shadowing, but...

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/8301/bfcdrama.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/bfcdrama.jpg/)

Fox

[E34ührer]

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/8301/bfcdrama.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/bfcdrama.jpg/)

:lol

Hilarious!

[NedMW]

Answers-

My headers are off of an E36 328i...not sure of year. To make it work you have to weld the aux. air injection port and block off the extra O2 sensor holes with block plugs. Other than that, pretty much a bolt on...

I like teh OEM mods when they are applicable.

The SSK is just my stock shifter that I took out and rewelded/bent to resemble the E60 ssk you can get at the dealer. Really practicing TIG work more than anything...

Again, I am flattered...I suppose I could make a build thread. Like I said, I have never bothered because I make my cars 'mine' and I don't care for all the negativity from the guys that have much more money and time than me. Plus, it's just a 3000-mile-a-month DD...but thank you.

I for one would love to see a build thread and I totally agree about OEM mods; BMW pays their designers a good (I would suppose?) wage so they produce the highest quality and fitting accessories. It's kinda annoying that they cost a tad more though haha.

Thanks for your time brother.

[dohcdoh]

Thanks kfox, needed an avatar. haha

[K Fox]

Thanks kfox, needed an avatar. haha

Bitte. :D

Fox

[richinvan]

Scientific research validating E3's claims:
EPA Rulemaking for Spark Ignition Engines Operating at or Below 19kW, March 2000, June 2000.

Also feel free to fire up your local Lexis/Nexis search and read the following papers/reports - the SAE report is available at a cost of $23.00, and clearly shows a 5-10% HC reduction in using E3 plugs in small engines; the abstract clearly states this:

http://papers.sae.org/982057/ SAE 982057, Effects of Spark Plug Electrode Geometry and Orientation on Small-Engine Emissions, Dr. G.J. Brereton, MSU Engine Research Lab.

Engine Spark Plug Testing Methodology Development, Dr. Sam Shelton, Principle Research Engineer, Strategic Energy Institute, Georgia Tech, April 1997.

Box Spark Plug Testing, Dr. Sam Shelton, Principle Research Engineer, Strategic Energy Institute, Georgia Tech, July 1997.

Engine Spark Plug Testing, Dr. Sam Shelton, Principle Research Engineer, Strategic Energy Institute, Georgia Tech, May 1998.

Thanks.

And for those too lazy to click the link:


In this paper, we discuss the results of a series of experiments in which the emissions of a two-stroke chainsaw engine, a four-stroke side-valve engine, and a four-stroke overhead-valve engine are measured using conventional spark plugs and spark plugs with crown-shaped electrodes. In general, the use of a crown-shaped electrode resulted in improvements in brake-specific fuel consumption and reductions in hydrocarbon emission of the order of 5% to 10%, at the cost of emitting slightly more oxides of nitrogen. These trends are consistent with theories of ignition and combustion in-somuch as the reported effects can be explained as a consequence of crown-shaped electrodes generating flame kernels which lead to faster burn rates, reduced heat losses and higher burned-gas temperatures.(emphasis added)

[5mall5nail5]

Wait a second. So you want us to pay $23 to read a report :rofl

All you can do is give an abstract which states (you forgot this part):

"From studies carried out in automobile engines, benefits have been reported when using different spark-plug electrode shapes or when aligning the plugs in the cylinder head in preferred directions. However, these benefits, observed in automotive overhead valve engines with well-mixed charges, have generally been modest [read, negligible, not reproducible, not measurable]"

and then further:

"In the case of off-highway and utility engines, which operate at substantially higher air-fuel ratios, often with poorly-mixed charges, the potential for improving performance by changing spark-plug shape has not been explored. In this paper, we discuss the results of a series of experiments in which the emissions of a two-stroke chainsaw engine, a four-stroke side-valve engine, and a four-stroke overhead-valve engine are measured using conventional spark plugs and spark plugs with crown-shaped electrodes."

Great. We are looking at off-highway and utility engines with "substantially higher air-fuel ratios".

Sigh. If you're so sure this is all 100% scientifically proven, accurate data with no bias or buy-in, pay the $23.

I find it comical that this paper has been published in 1998 and still this plug isn't popular in the least. 14 years of people building high performance engines and not ONE of them calls out E3 plugs specifically. Not one. None. Zero.

Again, if a $60 set of spark plugs could do me ANYTHING that I haven't already been able to achieve with a $15 set of plugs, I would do it. If it was 1 mpg, that'd be worth it. If it were 5 hp that'd be worth it. Someone should see the value in these plugs. Instead most threads on the internet involve these spark plugs falling apart in engines and causing hell. Still a big nope rich.

[richinvan]

Wait a second. So you want us to pay $23 to read a report :rofl

All you can do is give an abstract which states (you forgot this part):

"From studies carried out in automobile engines, benefits have been reported when using different spark-plug electrode shapes or when aligning the plugs in the cylinder head in preferred directions. However, these benefits, observed in automotive overhead valve engines with well-mixed charges, have generally been modest [read, negligible, not reproducible, not measurable]"

and then further:

"In the case of off-highway and utility engines, which operate at substantially higher air-fuel ratios, often with poorly-mixed charges, the potential for improving performance by changing spark-plug shape has not been explored. In this paper, we discuss the results of a series of experiments in which the emissions of a two-stroke chainsaw engine, a four-stroke side-valve engine, and a four-stroke overhead-valve engine are measured using conventional spark plugs and spark plugs with crown-shaped electrodes."

Great. We are looking at off-highway and utility engines with "substantially higher air-fuel ratios".

Sigh. If you're so sure this is all 100% scientifically proven, accurate data with no bias or buy-in, pay the $23.

I find it comical that this paper has been published in 1998 and still this plug isn't popular in the least. 14 years of people building high performance engines and not ONE of them calls out E3 plugs specifically. Not one. None. Zero.

Again, if a $60 set of spark plugs could do me ANYTHING that I haven't already been able to achieve with a $15 set of plugs, I would do it. If it was 1 mpg, that'd be worth it. If it were 5 hp that'd be worth it. Someone should see the value in these plugs. Instead most threads on the internet involve these spark plugs falling apart in engines and causing hell. Still a big nope rich.

Sorry pal, I HAVE the report - I can't post it; unless you're willing to foot the bill when the SAE comes calling for me posting their papers? You do realize there is such a thing called copyright law, right?

The abstract is clear, and all the evidence you need: the plugs show efficiency increases due to the shape of the electrode. You can post whatever you'd like. The SAE peer-reviewed and posted the paper. You want to invalidate it? Feel free to publish your own paper.

I knew before I even posted you'd say something like: "well, it's an offroad engine, so it doesn't count/matter."

Well, sorry chief: it matters.

The abstract is there; SAE published it. There's nothing left for you to argue.
Of course, you will argue all night long.

Have fun, though. I'll enjoy reading.

[E34ührer]

19kw = ~25hp...

Are you saying the E3's will make my lawnmower get 30mpg's Rich?

[richinvan]

19kw = ~25hp...

Are you saying the E3's will make my lawnmower get 30mpg's Rich?

Sure am!

Come on boys - you wanted the data - there's the data. The counter argument was that the plugs are garbage and don't work.

Clearly, the data shows otherwise. Are the gains in larger engines negligible or marginal? Probably. But there is clearly data that shows there are potential gains to be made in electrode design improvement.

That's what I was told to prove; that's what I proved.

Feel free to invalidate the SAE paper.

[MazDuh]

Nope.

Waste o money.

You got it. You can put those plugs in that impala that they dyno'd the tornado on and got more power out of(actually, dynos were backwards, 1st was with tornado, 2nd without, and AFTER heat soak)

If the E3 plugs were such a good idea, OEM manufactures would have them installed in their vehicles. BMW doesn't make spark plugs, they test the engines they build with ALL that are accessible to them and choose the right one for the right octane, tune or emissions programming. on modern cars(i mean, anything with electronic ignition, after points and condensers), there is VERY little to gain with upgraded ignition components. Especially in the more modern cars, where the EPA increases emissions regulations EVERY year, if there was even an milligram of any form of pollutants to be saved, it would've been done already.

This isn't a pissing match, The burden of proof lays in the hands of the claimant not the naysayer. Basically, put up, or shut up.

-Eric

[5mall5nail5]

Sure am!

Come on boys - you wanted the data - there's the data. The counter argument was that the plugs are garbage and don't work.

Clearly, the data shows otherwise. Are the gains in larger engines negligible or marginal? Probably. But there is clearly data that shows there are potential gains to be made in electrode design improvement.

That's what I was told to prove; that's what I proved.

Feel free to invalidate the SAE paper.

You can shoot holes all through those papers. This is not the first nor the only "magical" device with a university (backed fully by the company whose product they're evaluating) to publish a paper with data just enough on that grey line to pass under the radar.

Again Rich - if these plugs were so great, why don't they sell more than other plugs? If these plugs do what they say and are so amazing, then why weren't you promoted to super uber market researcher and why are you no longer involved in the industry? If my company had an employee evaluate a solution and suggest we invest in it and find its an insanely good move, they get recognition. So... what happened to picking up the product line?

Again, if Turner Motorsports could pick up .05 hp by running these spark plugs they would. If these spark plugs could get an F1 car around a track for as little as 50' more than they could without, they would use them.

They're not adopted by any race team - no one plugs them (no pun intended). I found some endorsed race teams that don't actually run E3 spark plugs :rofl and that's all I could find.

So, either the entire world is clueless and the creators of these products are geniuses or their "papers" were evaluated, found inconclusive, the products alleged results could not be duplicated in the real world, and thus the plug has not caught on. There's not much left to say - in a retail environment the product speaks for itself.


You got it. You can put those plugs in that impala that they dyno'd the tornado on and got more power out of(actually, dynos were backwards, 1st was with tornado, 2nd without, and AFTER heat soak)

If the E3 plugs were such a good idea, OEM manufactures would have them installed in their vehicles. BMW doesn't make spark plugs, they test the engines they build with ALL that are accessible to them and choose the right one for the right octane, tune or emissions programming. on modern cars(i mean, anything with electronic ignition, after points and condensers), there is VERY little to gain with upgraded ignition components. Especially in the more modern cars, where the EPA increases emissions regulations EVERY year, if there was even an milligram of any form of pollutants to be saved, it would've been done already.

This isn't a pissing match, The burden of proof lays in the hands of the claimant not the naysayer. Basically, put up, or shut up.

-Eric

Eric that's the exact point I was making before in this thread months ago. If BMW can produce an engine that gets 300 hp and 32 mpg on old crap spark plugs and these E3 can offer 5 - 10% gains then they would use them. Period!

I am glad some people are able to interpret this info!

[richinvan]

I'm so glad you guys are smarter than PhD scientists from multiple respected universities.

Am I surprised, though? Not at all. It made no difference what I linked or showed, you know better, Jon. You know better than everyone else around here.

The burden of proof is on the claimant, true. I have provided that proof. Period. End of story. It's right there. Read away.

Argue until you're blue in the face; but until you have a PhD and have published a paper refuting the *peer-reviewed* study with the Society of Automotive Engineers, your *opinion* - and let's not bullshit here, it IS only an opinion - is negated by the research.

[5mall5nail5]

I'm so glad you guys are smarter than PhD scientists from multiple respected universities.

Am I surprised, though? Not at all. It made no difference what I linked or showed, you know better, Jon. You know better than everyone else around here.

The burden of proof is on the claimant, true. I have provided that proof. Period. End of story. It's right there. Read away.

Argue until you're blue in the face; but until you have a PhD and have published a paper refuting the *peer-reviewed* study with the Society of Automotive Engineers, your *opinion* - and let's not bullshit here, it IS only an opinion - is negated by the research.

You seem to miss the blatantly obvious issue here Rich. If I am so wrong, and that's possible, that doesn't change the fact that no one uses these plugs. I am not arguing anything - I will not turn blue in the face. Why would I have to argue this? No one uses these plugs in performance applications. Fact. You can't even bend the truth about that in a peer reviewed (*) paper, because it's an absolute fact. The only people you see running these plugs are the types that say "Hey, let me try this other snake oil product and see what happens." For how few people run those plugs, there's so many examples of them failing... what's left to argue?

I don't know how diverse you are but perhaps you've heard of Jean Bricmont and Alan Sokal? If not - here's a quick rundown and why you might find this interesting: they are famous intellects/philosophers who published a book that went right under the noses of those who evaluated it. The book criticizes modern philosophers like Lacan, Latour, and Deleuze as misusing science and mathematical concepts to explain things. It literally said that "These authors use big words and long strung-along senstences to confuse readers/audience into thinking they're making sense about something when in fact they're not." Anyway, it was published in a very scrutinizing critical theory journal and every single reviewer missed the sarcasm and criticism leaking from the paper and it was published.

Anyhow - the point is - a published paper is fine. Surprise surprise that the creators of a product had a university study it and complete a "scientific review" that finds the product supporting huge gains. What you can't do with a scientific paper is sell product. I work in the aerospace/defense industry - we see papers all the time that say this that or the other allows for more efficient use of so and so or blah blah yet the industry still uses what it uses because it works and is reproducible. Scientific lab research (especially when heavily biased) doesn't sell products - results sell products. These plugs are not selling because they don't do anything worthwhile. That's the end of it.

For the record my brother is a PhD from UPenn in Biochemistry and specializes in synthetic polymers. I am a little more with what goes into authoring papers and journals than you may think. Don't think I haven't heard/seen discussion of how easy it is to get work published.

[MazDuh]

How about we see a sniffer test before and after of your car?
Or
before and after dyno pulls?

BETTER YET! install them in an OBD2 vehicle and watch fuel trim. Fuel trim is derived from the oxygen sensor(s). Theres long term and short term. If a fuel trim shows 0 on LT and ST then the ECU does not add or subtract fuel. The fact is, it shows 0 on all new cars because they're designed to run that specific plug. Let them get 70k on them and then look at it. Sure, fuel trims will have +/- readings now, but you aren't arguing that the E3 plugs aren't better than worn out plugs... you're claiming they're better, than the plugs(as new) the manufacturer, who developed the engine uses.

This is like that 5-hour energy commercial on these days. "of people who use energy supplements, 73% of doctors would recommend using one with vitamin blah blah" yeah. They aren't even touting their own product. They're just spewing bullshit and the only people that believe it are the ones dumb enough to use it.

Its like all of the people at the auto show(at least the STL) that watch the wax guy rub the snot out of a red hood with his wax to show how good it is. When i asked him to compare it to another wax on a hood never touched with wax, i was told that wouldn't happen.

Its like the Tornado, who i've seen plenty of ya-hoo's back up during my autozone days(some years ago), how can you create power without a power source?

Worst its MOST like this BG induction service that dealers across the country are cramming down peoples throats. $180 to run the most harmful crap through your motor. "releasing carbon deposits" so they can end up in your converters. 90% of the time the cars being done are still under warranty...cars run so clean today there really aren't those deposits.

Fact is some paper can stand behind it all it wants. A whole university can back this up. Is the rest of the world blind? no, they just use what IS proven.

You would think that by now, someone would know someone who has used these plugs, and liked them so much he would say something about them to his buddies. I haven't heard a peep out of these things since they came out, except for bitch fests like this one.

-Eric

[Trevor M]

I started off reading this thread but had to bypass 4 pages of mind numbing crap. Did anybody come to a conclusion yet?

Oh, and I may as well inject my opinion in as well.... I only run Bosch or NGK plugs because that's what I've found works best (for me).

[5mall5nail5]

You would think that by now, someone would know someone who has used these plugs, and liked them so much he would say something about them to his buddies. I haven't heard a peep out of these things since they came out, except for bitch fests like this one.

-Eric

There is a local tuner (I won't name names, but big VR6 builder in Warminster, PA) who really favors, or favored, not sure what the current status is, Brisk plugs.

http://www.briskusa.com/

We used them on a couple engines at the track and personally it was a mixed experience because 1) the engine just had a water/meth kit installed and wasn't really tuned for it and 2) the plugs were UBER cold for the setup... but it was blowing spark out. They don't claim to do anything other than be good reliable plugs. No one is talking about promised gains, just more consistency and better durability. I dunno, they were less consistent but the motor was changed when I experienced them so it's hard to say.

At the end of the day I still come back to NGK Racing plugs. I use them in all my cars and they just work too damned good.

[E34ührer]

No one is talking about promised gains, just more consistency and better durability.

Not to doubt...but I just didn't believe that a spark plug company existed that DIDN'T make those claims...then on the Brisk website:

"Higher output, better throttle response and acceleration are achieved through better fuel energy utilization"

I guess the don't include claimed numbers...but still saying they improve performance...

I KNEW IT!! Spark plug companies are full of it. Bosch/NGK for me...

[5mall5nail5]

Not to doubt...but I just didn't believe that a spark plug company existed that DIDN'T make those claims...then on the Brisk website:

"Higher output, better throttle response and acceleration are achieved through better fuel energy utilization"

I guess the don't include claimed numbers...but still saying they improve performance...

I KNEW IT!! Spark plug companies are full of it. Bosch/NGK for me...

Yeah they all claim that but E3 is the only one we have seen publishing articles lol. The fine print usually says something to the effect of "when compared to standard used plugs" or something.

This whole thing started because I simply said waste of money and supported that standard ngk are all you need

Sent from my Galaxy S 3 using BF.com

[mckchr67]

On the Mini boards there was a pretty detailed comparison with the brisk plugs. I bought into it and was running a step colder and still had to gap them overly tight I thought, and it still didnt feel right. Bad plugs, dunno.. I have since went back to Ngk.

[HE53]

Jon is miserable don't worry about it richinvan

[5mall5nail5]

Jon is miserable don't worry about it richinvan

Isn't it crazy how unmiserable I look in photos though? I hide it so well.

So I'm miserable... What of the rest of the people in this thread agreeing with my opinion? Are they miserable too?

Sent from my Galaxy S 3 using BF.com

[ross1]

How did I miss this shitstorm?
Here is what I believe in. It ain't rocket science, it's a @&*%! spark plug and makes little difference in 99.9% of the engines on the road. New ones are better than old ones. Racers and manufacturers will adopt what works best, it is to their benefit.
Too many times has someone had the newest and latest spark plug that gets all sorts of hype and hoo-ha but turns out to be nothing special at best and an expensive, harmful gimmick at worst.
I'll stay with what the engineers who designed my engine specify and leave it to the innovators to sort out the crap at their peril.
Spark plugs have been doing the same thing for a hundred years.

[5mall5nail5]

How did I miss this shitstorm?
Here is what I believe in. It ain't rocket science, it's a @&*%! spark plug and makes little difference in 99.9% of the engines on the road. New ones are better than old ones. Racers and manufacturers will adopt what works best, it is to their benefit.
Too many times has someone had the newest and latest spark plug that gets all sorts of hype and hoo-ha but turns out to be nothing special at best and an expensive, harmful gimmick at worst.
I'll stay with what the engineers who designed my engine specify and leave it to the innovators to sort out the crap at their peril.
Spark plugs have been doing the same thing for a hundred years.

Ross,

Stop being miserable.

Regards

Sent from my Galaxy S 3 using BF.com

[MazDuh]

I suppose I'm miserable too. That sucks, I was in a good mood.

FWIW, i run NGK's in every car i own except my F350. I also have attempted to play the plug game and the only thing i learned is that you can't re-invent the wheel.

[dohcdoh]

I only run copper now. I had platinum +2 and +4 in two seperate cars I bought, both m20 325i's. Bought the cars with the plugs in them and couldnt find out why i had a stutter under load. So i replaced the distributor and rotor, which were both fried. That helped for a day and the stutter was back. Pulled the distributor again and it was fried. So I pulled the plugs and found that the platinum electrode was nowhere to be seen.It had worn out, as in missing completely. Replaced the plugs with copper, replaced the dizzy and rotor again, and all has been well. I can only conclude that the platinum wore out and caused the distributor to prematurely fail.

[5mall5nail5]

If the plug cannot arc in the cylinder head the spark has to go some place - it must have been discharging throughout the distributor cap. </miserable>

[ross1]

If the plug cannot arc in the cylinder head the spark has to go some place - it must have been discharging throughout the distributor cap. </miserable>


Yep, I read recently(here?) about spark burning through the coil tower.

"It's in him and it's got to come out" John Lee Hooker

[Steve547i]

Noobs. I don't run spark plugs. I converted to glow plugs

[E34ührer]

Noobs. I don't run spark plugs. I converted to glow plugs

+1...the flux capacitor blueprints said nothing about spark plugs...:rofl :rofl

[Steve547i]

Flux capacitor? 1985 called and they want their transfusion thermonuclear hyperdrive back.

I've got a reflex inhibitor with a Neon reducer.

[janders211]

Flux capacitor? 1985 called and they want their transfusion thermonuclear hyperdrive back.

I've got a reflex inhibitor with a Neon reducer.

Prilosec can help with that...best when combined with Valtrex.

[E34ührer]

Neon reducer.

Don't you mean a 'PT Cruiser'?

[antil33t]

My car has a mixture of spark plugs. am I doin' it right?

some were Beru, and some were BOSCH and another one was an NGK!

Who the f*** only changes one or two plugs at a time, f***ing MUNTERS!

For my M20 Powered vehicle I bought the cheapest plugs possible, because they were piss easy to change. (cheapest possible... they were Bosch)

[WhoNew]

Wow.

I have E3 plugs in my car now. They suck. Bought new ngks a month ago, but my crazy family and work schedule have prevented me from changing them.

I have all kinds of opinions about this banter, but i shall keep it to myself.

[ross1]

Just viewed their propaganda video with a shill from some nose picker Speed TV show, electric guitar soundtrack and all.
" Diamond technology" three electrodes, whoopie. The combustion chamber test shown (methane BTW)proves nothing. In one breath they claim it "stabilizes" the early burn and in the next tout that it is a faster burn.
Sure looks like smoke and mirrors to me.