M54 F/I tuning, reinforced parts.

[Pierre3400]

Hey guys,

Im moving into building an M54B30 engine up with a lot of tweaks and changes. Might be looking at FI on it.

I am unsure about where i am heading with this build at the moment.

I dont have the crankshaft, as is was used to make a 3liter M50.

I am thinking, M50B20 Crank shaft, balanced for 12/15,000rpm, with reinforced con-rods, and pistons. Then turbo charge it.

Im going to need stronger springs for the valves, where would I go find this? For a reasonable price?

How able is the M54 at handling pressure? I know that the old M52's are normally exchanged for M50B25's for F/I builds.

[dohcdoh]

The m52 seems up to the task, check out brett's turbo e30 widebody build thread here in the f/i section.

[Clubsport]

I love these posts

[5mall5nail5]

I am thinking, M50B20 Crank shaft, balanced for 12/15,000rpm, with reinforced con-rods, and pistons. Then turbo charge it.


:rofl :rofl :rofl



For a reasonable price?

:rofl



I know that the old M52's are normally exchanged for M50B25's for F/I builds.

:confused

[milKt]

Yeah,
this thread could be promising.

Not sure if Brett's engine is able to rev to 10-12K with the knife-edged crank,
but pretty close, maybe?

[dohcdoh]

haha I was commenting on the handling the pressure thing, not the rpms. shoulda quoted

[bawareca]

The m52 seems up to the task, check out brett's turbo e30 widebody build thread here in the f/i section.

Euro M52 is aluminum block with alusil/nikasil sleeves,they use M50 cast iron block for F/I.

[Pierre3400]

I may want to rephrase myself.

When I write for a reasonable price, I mean, there's many tunings sites out there, some have the same items, but for different prices. So reasonable would be, a great item at the correct price and not the same item overpriced.

This is the same typical useless responses I got last time I put an engine together, mainly I think its because no thinks im serious. But since I have to save for longer periods I dont find it wrong to start looking for parts knowing what I need to save up.

My M50B20 is sitting finished at the moment pretty much ready to mount apart from 1 issues with a camshaft. Everyone rolled eyes when I started talking about that, but its been built, and will be stuffed in the car within the next few months.

So guys, roll your eyes, do what ever, everyone has to start somewhere, we were all noobs at one point, instead of making fun, how about helping out with links to where i can get springs for my valves in the M54 head.


Yeah,
this thread could be promising.

Not sure if Brett's engine is able to rev to 10-12K with the knife-edged crank,
but pretty close, maybe?

Please take note that I never said I want to Rev to 12/15,000rpm, I just want my Crank balanced for it. This way, im sure i can run at 10,000rpm without problems.
Since I am using an M50B20 crank, the displacement will be about 2,3, with 84mm pistons, due to the shorter travel of the pistons, which is why i wish to up the revs.

[PEI330Ci]

I may want to rephrase myself.

When I write for a reasonable price, I mean, there's many tunings sites out there, some have the same items, but for different prices. So reasonable would be, a great item at the correct price and not the same item overpriced.

This is the same typical useless responses I got last time I put an engine together, mainly I think its because no thinks im serious. But since I have to save for longer periods I dont find it wrong to start looking for parts knowing what I need to save up.

My M50B20 is sitting finished at the moment pretty much ready to mount apart from 1 issues with a camshaft. Everyone rolled eyes when I started talking about that, but its been built, and will be stuffed in the car within the next few months.

So guys, roll your eyes, do what ever, everyone has to start somewhere, we were all noobs at one point, instead of making fun, how about helping out with links to where i can get springs for my valves in the M54 head.



Please take note that I never said I want to Rev to 12/15,000rpm, I just want my Crank balanced for it. This way, im sure i can run at 10,000rpm without problems.
Since I am using an M50B20 crank, the displacement will be about 2,3, with 84mm pistons, due to the shorter travel of the pistons, which is why i wish to up the revs.

What is your budget?

I don't know of any M54s that have been run over 8600 rpm, and even then that was over-rev on a road racing 2.5L engine. Peak power was just under 8000 RPM, and the engine idled at 2,000 RPM.

Throttle response was pretty jerky under 5,000 RPM...definitely not street friendly.

This was a $35k engine package, so you are looking at probably another $10k in R&D to make an M54 rev to 10k RPM?

I have 2 of the most highly developed M54 cylinder heads at my shop, and they don't flow enough to support 10K RPM. They also cost more than what most people spend on an entire FI kit.

[ar design]

What is your budget?

I don't know of any M54s that have been run over 8600 rpm, and even then that was over-rev on a road racing 2.5L engine. Peak power was just under 8000 RPM, and the engine idled at 2,000 RPM.

Throttle response was pretty jerky under 5,000 RPM...definitely not street friendly.

This was a $35k engine package, so you are looking at probably another $10k in R&D to make an M54 rev to 10k RPM?

I have 2 of the most highly developed M54 cylinder heads at my shop, and they don't flow enough to support 10K RPM. They also cost more than what most people spend on an entire FI kit.

Rookie.....

:shifty

Just kidding. In all seriousness, this guy knows what he is talking about. I would take his advice ;)

Turbo M5x/S5x much better idea.

[PEI330Ci]

Turbo M5x/S5x much better idea.

Agreed.

Knowing what I do now, a much better starting point from a cost and longevity perspective.

[Pierre3400]

What is your budget?

I don't know of any M54s that have been run over 8600 rpm, and even then that was over-rev on a road racing 2.5L engine. Peak power was just under 8000 RPM, and the engine idled at 2,000 RPM.

Throttle response was pretty jerky under 5,000 RPM...definitely not street friendly.

This was a $35k engine package, so you are looking at probably another $10k in R&D to make an M54 rev to 10k RPM?

I have 2 of the most highly developed M54 cylinder heads at my shop, and they don't flow enough to support 10K RPM. They also cost more than what most people spend on an entire FI kit.

This is much better information.

So the cylinder head it self is going to restrict the rpm. What is the max this head allows as stock? I will be flow porting my head, but just to have some figures to stick to.

[PEI330Ci]

This is much better information.

So the cylinder head it self is going to restrict the rpm. What is the max this head allows as stock? I will be flow porting my head, but just to have some figures to stick to.

You know what comes up at the top of the list when you type "M54 cylinder head flow" into google?

One of my threads. You'll like it.

[Pierre3400]

You know what comes up at the top of the list when you type "M54 cylinder head flow" into google?

One of my threads. You'll like it.

Very usefull, you have made me doubt the M54, but since it was free... I need to think about this. But great thread non the less!

[uk525td]

Am i thinking about this the wrong way?
Isnt it easier to make a non vanos head rev to 10k? less complications with the vanos, espsecially since vanos is mostly out at 5800? anyway isnt it? youd have a built motor which has another 4k of usable power band outside anything the variable cam timing is giving you?
In which case you can just start with an m50b20 if thats the way you roll?
or rather than running to 10k on a 2.3 ish run to 8k on a 2.8 and make up for it in boost

Or.....
Start with a 2jz... think they like 10k and beyond

[5mall5nail5]

Am i thinking about this the wrong way?
Isnt it easier to make a non vanos head rev to 10k? less complications with the vanos, espsecially since vanos is mostly out at 5800? anyway isnt it? youd have a built motor which has another 4k of usable power band outside anything the variable cam timing is giving you?
In which case you can just start with an m50b20 if thats the way you roll?
or rather than running to 10k on a 2.3 ish run to 8k on a 2.8 and make up for it in boost

Or.....
Start with a 2jz... think they like 10k and beyond

RPMs have like 5% to do with head/cams and 95% to with crank harmonics.

People seem to forget that 10,000 RPM 2JZ's are also $30k motors.

[Brody @ Miller]

RPMs have like 5% to do with head/cams and 95% to with crank harmonics.

People seem to forget that 10,000 RPM 2JZ's are also $30k motors.

Untrue, everyone's buddy has done it for under 5k remember!

[5mall5nail5]

Untrue, everyone's buddy has done it for under 5k remember!

Crap, I forgot! My bad!

[Nomade30]

You need to decide what head your going to use first. If this going into race mode I say M50 family head as the exhaust vanos has little influence on up top power.

Also if you use the M54 rotating assembly, get the ATI harmonic balancer.

[Pierre3400]

In any case, this engine would be running with a Vanos delete and M50 wiring (402 box and wiring)

But im sure no one here has tried to build one of these with an M50B20 crank. It does mean shorter travel for the pistons, which is why i would have thought pushing higher RPM would be that tiny bit easier.

Since the volume inside the cylinder is smaller, and with oversize valves, there is less to push out.

I havent has time to read into the topic in depth on the head flow, as im currently changing a gearbox on an old Audi, and need to lay in the new engine in my e36 before i even consider strapping the M54 up in the engine mount for rebuild.

[uk525td]

RPMs have like 5% to do with head/cams and 95% to with crank harmonics.

People seem to forget that 10,000 RPM 2JZ's are also $30k motors.

yer i get that its normally the crank destroying itself
main point was why go to the effort to run a twin vanos head when you are going to be operating way beyond where vanos makes itself most useful, the midrange.
And the OP has just mentioned the Vanos won't be used anyway...

But no, i had no idea about the 2jz..

[PEI330Ci]

In any case, this engine would be running with a Vanos delete and M50 wiring (402 box and wiring)

But im sure no one here has tried to build one of these with an M50B20 crank. It does mean shorter travel for the pistons, which is why i would have thought pushing higher RPM would be that tiny bit easier.

Since the volume inside the cylinder is smaller, and with oversize valves, there is less to push out.

I havent has time to read into the topic in depth on the head flow, as im currently changing a gearbox on an old Audi, and need to lay in the new engine in my e36 before i even consider strapping the M54 up in the engine mount for rebuild.

The RPM limit is mostly due to bore size.

If we had a 94mm bore size, I'd probably be running 10k rpm myself.

[5mall5nail5]

The RPM limit is mostly due to bore size.

If we had a 94mm bore size, I'd probably be running 10k rpm myself.

Do you mean bore size is the limitation in terms of preserving displacement whilst shortening stroke?

If that's what you mean, I agree.

[Pierre3400]

The RPM limit is mostly due to bore size.

If we had a 94mm bore size, I'd probably be running 10k rpm myself.
I would have thought that going smaller bore would and shorter stroke would enable more rpm.

[Nomade30]

He means at a constant displacement.

[PEI330Ci]

Do you mean bore size is the limitation in terms of preserving displacement whilst shortening stroke?

If that's what you mean, I agree.


I would have thought that going smaller bore would and shorter stroke would enable more rpm.

I mean that the bore size is the limitation with regard to valve size. 34mm intake valves are pretty much the limit on a 84mm bore....if I wanted to run to 10k RPM I'd want larger valves.

[Pierre3400]

I mean that the bore size is the limitation with regard to valve size. 34mm intake valves are pretty much the limit on a 84mm bore....if I wanted to run to 10k RPM I'd want larger valves.


This makes sense, but being that im still only running around 2.3liter i have less to push threw, and with cams that open the valves more, your sure im not able to get anywhere close?

[5mall5nail5]

I mean that the bore size is the limitation with regard to valve size. 34mm intake valves are pretty much the limit on a 84mm bore....if I wanted to run to 10k RPM I'd want larger valves.

I get you - though I think at 10k rpm the entire head port/casting would need to be revisited bit time. Doesn't seem worth it (obviously).

[gstuning]

I get you - though I think at 10k rpm the entire head port/casting would need to be revisited bit time. Doesn't seem worth it (obviously).

Apart from the fact that the b20 crank would need work before.going to 10k.

Head would need alot of work. Even an s50 or s54 head would need.alot.of work.

[5mall5nail5]

Apart from the fact that the b20 crank would need work before.going to 10k.

Head would need alot of work. Even an s50 or s54 head would need.alot.of work.

Definitely - any BMW head would need a lot of work. So much that I'd probably just consider another engine if that were my goal.