M60B40 Camshaft Gain

[Shoomakan]

Hey everyone,

Been doing some research on cams. Couple of threads on Bimmerforums, but can't find a dynograph OR a firsthand account of them.

The information I've found thus far:

- Gains are around 25whp (with or without a tune?)
- It's accepted that dishing out 2,000$ for a 25whp gain is not worth it (same $ to hp ratio as an S/C, though...)
- Dinan are overpriced for no good reason, VAC cams are just as good for 1/3 of the price.
- M60B30 and M60B40 have same cam part numbers (249/241 degrees) http://www.catcams.co.uk/acatalog/BMW_530i__540i__730i__740i_32v_V8.html
- VAC cams (258/247 degrees) http://store.vacmotorsports.com/vac---m60-m62-drop-in-performance-camshaft-sets-p1869.aspx
A S/C kit is too much for me ATM, and I would not like to cobble one together as I'm convinced it's a significantly more difficult and won't give the same results at first. And I can't garage the car indefinitely to figure it out)

Anyone willing to chime in?

Cheers all,

Shooma

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFXTc1vfkyY

Nobody??

[Shoomakan]

Come on guys, I'm this close to investing in cams and I need your opinions...

[me78569]

You would be one of the VERY few who did this. I can't think of any forum members that have had cams.

I would honestly just save for a blower. The M60 is not going to be a NA monster without some SERIOUS cash.

[E34ührer]

First, some questions...you sure it's a 96? You sure it's an E34? Is it an OBDII motor? Have you already done the 'basics'? (Chip, headers, exhaust, etc...)

[Shoomakan]

First, some questions...you sure it's a 96? You sure it's an E34? Is it an OBDII motor? Have you already done the 'basics'? (Chip, headers, exhaust, etc...)

Yes, it's a 96 model. Yes, it's an E34. No, it is an OBD1 motor (M60B40). Chip is in the process, having some difficulty since it is equipped with EWS-II. But I am working on it with someone who is well respected here. And I'm very happy with his advice and service thus far.

Headers.. I'm not going to pay 2000$ for them and pay another 1000$ or so to ship and have them clear customs. Exhaust I have done nothing with either, wasn't under the impression the gains are worth it. I can custom make headers and exhaust here for relatively cheap, but they would not be as well "researched" as out of the box units, I'm sure.

Check my thread if you're interested. (Shoomakan's 1996 540iT/6 build thread)

Moar input!

[84318i]

Keep us posted on this, I want a set of cams for my b40 heads as well but never could have any good data on the cams.

[Layne]

Cams are not worth it. The 4.0 already has very good ones.

[sbeckman7]

I would like to see it done just for the sake of research/trial. Plus I would love to hear a cammed M60 :)

[jaseb3]

Agreeing with the majority here: cams=not worth it. You say you don't have the dough to put on a decent s/c kit...why would you fork out 2 grand for a mere 25 hp gain? Doesn't make sense IMO. Keep saving until you've got 4-5 grand and get yourself a nice s/c kit that'll actually add some power to your car. The b40 already has enough power that 25 hp isn't going to do much for you.
Granted, it is pretty cool to know/say you've got a larger cam. But I think around here most people will just shake their heads and laugh.

[EVOLONE38]

I would like to see it done just for the sake of research/trial. Plus I would love to hear a cammed M60 :)

Check my vid, of Dan on the gas in my car. Dinan cams, m60 intake and blower on a OBD1 converted m62. Magnaflow muffler out back.

You asked....

[84318i]

Cams are not worth it. The 4.0 already has very good ones.

Thats relative ;) May not be worth it to us, but worth it to OP. Maybe SC is not legal for him...who knows.

[sbeckman7]

Check my vid, of Dan on the gas in my car. Dinan cams, m60 intake and blower on a OBD1 converted m62. Magnaflow muffler out back.

You asked....

Awesome, thanks man.

[Baupfhor]

Not legal in Lebanon? Does such a thing exists?

[Shoomakan]

Not legal in Lebanon? Does such a thing exists?

Hahaha.. No, no such things exists. Everything goes here. :)

Is it safe to assume a set of cams and a tune would give me a 40 horsepower gain? Or am I being too optimistic?

[K Fox]

Hahaha.. No, no such things exists. Everything goes here. :)

Is it safe to assume a set of cams and a tune would give me a 40 horsepower gain? Or am I being too optimistic?

Probably too optimistic. To be honest, if you're looking for a nice 'bang for your buck' upgrade, look into swapping in an M62 4.4l block. All you have to do is convert a few items to work with the cars existing wiring and computer, and then get a decent chip/tune to make the most out of the increased engine size. That's going to be less expensive than the cams, and end up giving you far more usable power as an upgrade. It's been done a couple times already on here, search out 'M62 swap' and enjoy - it's good reading!!

Fox

[Steve547i]

I have them.

[me78569]

+1 on the m62 swap. It would likely be cheaper.

[E34ührer]

Yes, it's a 96 model. Yes, it's an E34. No, it is an OBD1 motor (M60B40). Chip is in the process, having some difficulty since it is equipped with EWS-II. But I am working on it with someone who is well respected here. And I'm very happy with his advice and service thus far.

Headers.. I'm not going to pay 2000$ for them and pay another 1000$ or so to ship and have them clear customs. Exhaust I have done nothing with either, wasn't under the impression the gains are worth it. I can custom make headers and exhaust here for relatively cheap, but they would not be as well "researched" as out of the box units, I'm sure.

Check my thread if you're interested. (Shoomakan's 1996 540iT/6 build thread)

Moar input!

The WEIGHT you can save going to aftermarket exhaust system will net you more gains than a set of expensive cams. But just wait until EVERYONE has told you that M60 cams are worthless...and then buy them anyways...right? This is usually how BF.c works.

[Layne]

I couldn't possibly disagree more on swapping an M62. Among it's many glaring faults, the most obvious is that it has 4 LESS horsepower.

[me78569]

It does have more torque though. Swapping in the m60 intake manifold more than takes care of the 4 less hp too. Every e39 540 I have been in was faster than my 540 was.

I dug up a stock e39 dyno. Lets see if I can find a e34 I believe nic's was the highest I have seen?
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n243/peetiewonder/20120306_105353.jpg

Well I couldn't find a dnyo sheet, but in the engine sale ad he had up it said it put down 260 whp and 270 rwtq. That's a big difference with that .4l for the m62.

Food for thought at least.

[E34ührer]

I couldn't possibly disagree more on swapping an M62. Among it's many glaring faults, the most obvious is that it has 4 LESS horsepower.

OBDI M62 > M60...by a LARGE margin...

[Shoomakan]

I did alot of research into the M62 issue.. I honestly wouldn't consider it unless something happens to my engine.

M62's aren't as smooth or take as much abuse, according to alot of information I've seen, mostly due to the single chain setup and single valve spring issue. Is this correct?

I'd also appreciate a definitive link into swapping an M62 block onto an M60. That, I'm interested in learning about. :)

[me78569]

There are 3 or 4 very insightful threads on here in regards to swapping a m62 in. Moroza even swapped the timing chains from the m60 into the m62. Searching should give you all you need to know.

[Shoomakan]

I couldn't possibly disagree more on swapping an M62. Among it's many glaring faults, the most obvious is that it has 4 LESS horsepower

There are a few dynographs in the E39 section that demonstrate that M62's are under-rated. Hell, it's even on Wikipedia. :)

They're supposedly around 300bhp, stock.

[me78569]

Yea they didn't add almost a half litre of displacement and lose power.

[Layne]

Yea they didn't add almost a half litre of displacement and lose power.

Right, that would be impossible. Ever heard of an E30?

(I just think the M60 is better in every way. We all have our opinions)

[E34ührer]

Right, that would be impossible. Ever heard of an E30?

(I just think the M60 is better in every way. We all have our opinions)


Kind of expected more from you...(or rather, someone of your post count...)

OBDI M62 yields ~300+...and it takes EVERY bit of abuse the M60 unit will...we did an M62 swap in a 91 535i when I worked at Autobahn Sport...that thing pulled harder than any M60 powered car could ever dream of...

[PorscheH6]

I couldn't possibly disagree more on swapping an M62. Among it's many glaring faults, the most obvious is that it has 4 LESS horsepower.
Layne, your incorrect statement disappoints me.

[DUDMD]

M62 will perform better than any M60, you just have to replace
The timing chain and all the guides when your converting it to OBD1, you have to take off the lower timing cover off anyways.
Dual row timing chains are awesome and trouble free. But the single chain on the m62 is good for 80-160k miles, so it takes a while to wear out.

[E34ührer]

Ever heard of an E30?


Also, explain this...

[DUDMD]

BTW: My m60 with a only exhaust and my chip made 266.6WHP and 269WTQ on a dyno dynamics dyno, it would make more on dynojet/dynopack.

M62 obviously makes more torque, and the m62tu is a torque monster.
http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/9276/540i6dyno.jpg

[EVOLONE38]

As usual ^ DUDMD is on point. m62 ftw.

[K Fox]

I did alot of research into the M62 issue.. I honestly wouldn't consider it unless something happens to my engine.

M62's aren't as smooth or take as much abuse, according to alot of information I've seen, mostly due to the single chain setup and single valve spring issue. Is this correct?

I'd also appreciate a definitive link into swapping an M62 block onto an M60. That, I'm interested in learning about. :)

As said above, find Moroza's build thread - he has one of the better documented swaps. Also, see more below on the timing chain setup...


There are 3 or 4 very insightful threads on here in regards to swapping a m62 in. Moroza even swapped the timing chains from the m60 into the m62. Searching should give you all you need to know.


M62 will perform better than any M60, you just have to replace
The timing chain and all the guides when your converting it to OBD1, you have to take off the lower timing cover off anyways.
Dual row timing chains are awesome and trouble free. But the single chain on the m62 is good for 80-160k miles, so it takes a while to wear out.

Bolded for emphasis. Part of the swap should be bolting on all of the M60 timing gear. Also to be noted - the best option for the swap is one of the early M62 engines - non -TU (so non vanos). This ends up being the simplest swap, and all of the M60 timing gear can be used relatively easily (if memory serves). It can be done with the vanos engines, but it's more trouble to make the timing setup work.

Also, one other idea I had was to use the 4.4l bottom end and bolt up good M60 heads on it - you'd get slightly higher compression and the M60 is known for having slightly hotter cams also. This is what I want to do eventually, and I believe someone else here in the forum is currently attempting. Should be do-able, and should make quite a bit more power than either setup would stock, though that's all in the final tuning. I don't ever recommend people to do things I wouldn't do myself, so I'd advise researching the swap a little more - it's apparently quite worth it for the guys who have done it already.

Fox (4.4l M60 is the ultimate goal - and should be quite a giggle...:stickoutt)

[Shoomakan]

Thank you for all the information, guys..

I think an M62/M60 hybrid is worth learning about. I'll be reading the threads you guys suggested.

Thanks, Fox!

[Layne]

Also, explain this...

2.5l = 190hp
2.7l = 160hp

BMW engines are almost never about ultimate hp and make a ton of compromises for easier drivability, lower noise, emissions, fuel efficiency, etc. To say that more displacement always = more hp isn't correct.

If I built an ultimate M60 it would use an S62 crankshaft anyway so the .4l is moot to me.

[me78569]

the eta engine was designed with a different purpose than the standard m20 was though, Fuel mileage. The m60 and m62 where both for the same purpose. Since the the m62 was built to go into the replacement for the m60 it would only make sense that it would be more powerful.

And if I was to built my own no budget m60 the .4 would matter either, because I would use a m60b30 with a pair of turbos and a much higher rev limit.

[E34ührer]

2.5l = 190hp
2.7l = 160hp

BMW engines are almost never about ultimate hp and make a ton of compromises for easier drivability, lower noise, emissions, fuel efficiency, etc. To say that more displacement always = more hp isn't correct.

If I built an ultimate M60 it would use an S62 crankshaft anyway so the .4l is moot to me.

Sorry....I always forget about them ETA's. I was racking my brain trying to identify an E30 where .5L meant less power...I guess the ETA's are close.

[Shoomakan]

Ok, so after much thinking about this...

I've decided to start saving up for a displacement job. Since mating an M62 block to an M60 yields only the benefits of the increased displacement, I find it makes more sense to order high-comp pistons from VAC with a 94 mm bore. That will yield me 4.44 litres, with significantly higher compression. With a tune, I'm sure that's even better than an M62 block. And that way, there's no cam and crank sensor modification, nor cam spacing and headgasket issues.

But before all that, lightweight flywheel time. :)

Also forgot to mention.. M62B44 engines here go for no less than 1200$.. Only for the block and heads, too. Nothing else. So it makes financial sense to me to dish out an extra 800$ or so for the compression gains yielded by the new pistons.

[E34ührer]

Ok, so after much thinking about this...

I've decided to start saving up for a displacement job. Since mating an M62 block to an M60 yields only the benefits of the increased displacement, I find it makes more sense to order high-comp pistons from VAC with a 94 mm bore. That will yield me 4.44 litres, with significantly higher compression. With a tune, I'm sure that's even better than an M62 block. And that way, there's no cam and crank sensor modification, nor cam spacing and headgasket issues.

But before all that, lightweight flywheel time. :)

Also forgot to mention.. M62B44 engines here go for no less than 1200$.. Only for the block and heads, too. Nothing else. So it makes financial sense to me to dish out an extra 800$ or so for the compression gains yielded by the new pistons.

A much better use for the ridiculous amounts of cash that cams would cost you IMO

[DUDMD]

Are you going to bore out your original sleeves? or are you going to resleeve the block?

[Shoomakan]

Are you going to bore out your original sleeves? or are you going to resleeve the block?

I'd like your advice on that. I do have access to a very talented machinist, so I was thinking of going that route.

Again, this is all still mental masturbation, but I'm sure it's the direction I want to go later on. This won't happen before winter.

[DUDMD]

You pretty much have to replace the sleeves to replace pistons on these, whether it's nikasil or alusil linings.

[MazDuh]

I've got a nice low mile M62 that i bought for my e34 540i. I have to pull the enigne out(runs GREAT, alusil too) but some idiot exhaust shop hacked up the exhaust manifold and the clutch is starting to show signs of not liking the 255's in the rear.

I've done tons of reading and the M62 is WELL worth the $ and time you spend.
In stock form, i dislike the M62 greatly, mainly for its weak timing components. I have never seen a 4.0L killed from a chain issue, but that just about kills every 4.4L.
However, when using the M60's timing components, i feel like the M62 can be every bit as reliable as its predecessor.
The best part of this swap is that you're using all factory BMW components. Not rods out of a mustang and notching a block like a lot of other hybrid engines are. All of these bmw parts are proven, the R&D is already done.
Not to mention the R&D is already done for the swap! its been done enough that pretty much every issue you'd have, has been covered. I found this to be a major help when i swapped a kia sportage engine into my 92 B2200. Since it had been done by a friend of mine in town, I knew what to expect and had the swap done in 4 days. Nothing can replace someone else doing the dirty work.
Now that being said, $1200 for a used M62 isnt too far off of US prices. Not to mention you can always have the M62 cams reground and make even more power...

Side note, Ive done a little reading and seen a few people bring up delta cam. Personally, i have dealt with delta(ha, ha, play on words!) and they do an excellent and reasonable job. They did a set of 4 cams for a 2.5L Mazda V6(cam on bucket, DOHC with single cam drive similar to BMW) for $105/cam. Seems a pretty reasonable expectation that the BMW would be 25% more expensive since it has 25% more cylinders. Anyone ever use them for an M60/62?

-Eric

[Layne]

You pretty much have to replace the sleeves to replace pistons on these, whether it's nikasil or alusil linings.

I'm not sure what you're on about, these engines do not have replaceable sleeves. Of course you can bore out and sleeve any engine, but not to 94mm on this one. That's for repairing an expensive or rare block, not a procedure you do for high performance. You cannot bore a nikasil engine at all, the coating is too thin. You would bore away all the coating and the raw aluminum would wear out in no time. You can bore an alusil block, but I don't know how far. Does it have the same properties all the way through, or would removing 2.5mm have the same effect as the nikasil block? I don't know the answer to that. The V12's are alusil, so if you talk to someone that knows how the 6.0l conversions are done on those you'll probably find the answer.

[K Fox]

Are you going to bore out your original sleeves? or are you going to resleeve the block?


You pretty much have to replace the sleeves to replace pistons on these, whether it's nikasil or alusil linings.

See below for my $.02


I'm not sure what you're on about, these engines do not have replaceable sleeves.

^^ This. OP needs to find out if his block is a Nikasil or Alusil specimen - all of the planned work will depend on the answer. For the record, ALL M62 blocks are Alusil, hence the recommendation to go with one - no risk of ending up with a non-serviceable Nik block.


You cannot bore a nikasil engine at all, the coating is too thin. You would bore away all the coating and the raw aluminum would wear out in no time.

Again, truth. Though there are apparently a couple companies that can re-coat the cylinders with the Nikasil coating (they also use this stuff for dirt bikes, apparently), it's not the best option. And without the coating, the block is only worth it's recycling value.


Of course you can bore out and sleeve any engine, but not to 94mm on this one. That's for repairing an expensive or rare block, not a procedure you do for high performance. You can bore an alusil block, but I don't know how far. Does it have the same properties all the way through, or would removing 2.5mm have the same effect as the nikasil block? I don't know the answer to that. The V12's are alusil, so if you talk to someone that knows how the 6.0l conversions are done on those you'll probably find the answer.

To answer the question there, yes the Alusil blocks have the same physical structure throughout the entire block. That's why they went to them instead of the Nikasil coated ones. The only real trick with them is the final surface prep of the cylinder is an acid etch instead of a normal honing process. As for boring the block out to 94mm, it is possible from what I've seen. Take into consideration that the S62 is the same basic block, but is 94mm bore stock. It is do-able, but it's also known that the cylinder walls are only 4 mm thick then - not the best setup for extreme power. It works fine until you go completely crazy though, meaning some form of forced induction, but I personally would want the cylinder walls as thick as they could be. Boring and sleeving the block is also possible, but will be a bit expensive, and ask Steve547 about the possible pitfalls of that...:mad I still say the best option would be to find a low mile used M62 and use the bottom end of that. Again, because of the fact that it will be an Alusil block, it'll have more meat between the cylinders, and will be the least work involved with a matching low amount of money needed. That said, the overbore setup seems nice too, but I like stroke over bore for increasing displacement on street driven vehicles. Torque > power for street use. That's my $.02, take it how y'all will.

Fox

[Layne]

the cylinder walls are only 4 mm thick then

To be clear, the cylinder walls are not 4mm thick, the web between 2 cylinders is 4mm thick. That means 2 cylinder walls combined, plus the space for water in between equals 4mm. So really the cylinders walls are about 1mm thick.

But yeah, I agree with everything you said.

[MazDuh]

When boring an engine that far, that is the ratio of metal removed to the amount of metal there in the first place, Heat dissipation becomes a major issue. A lot of the mazda 2.5L guys bore 1.5mm to accept a shelf-stock 300zx piston. This causes the car to run 20-30 deg hotter, even with the biggest of radiators. The cylinder walls are so thin, that there isnt enough metal to dissipate the heat from combustion. Thankfully its a closed deck so no worry about cylinder walk.

I'd get an M62 and forget about it. its RELIABLE power.

[Shoomakan]

Valid points, all of you. I wish I could run the M62 with my existing harness and ECU... 4mm or less between cylinders is not comforting, though. Didn't know that would happen.

From what I've read Moroza's thread and a couple of others, I need to install a spacer from the crank sensor, weld the cam sensor a certain way, and install a 2mm spacer for the cams. I also need to get an M62 head gasket, as the gasket "map" is different from M60 to M62. Am I correct?

Again, if I could run the M60 harness and ECU, I'd do the swap next month... :P

[M3 Euro LTW]

I've decided to start saving up for a displacement job. Since mating an M62 block to an M60 yields only the benefits of the increased displacement...

Also forgot to mention.. M62B44 engines here go for no less than 1200$.. Only for the block and heads, too. Nothing else. So it makes financial sense to me to dish out an extra 800$ or so for the compression gains yielded by the new pistons.
I'm pretty sure if you use your cylinder heads, mated to the 4.4 bottom end that you will get a bump in compression as well. Personally I would not spend a ton just to bump compression via pistons as I feel cams and displacement will contribute more proportionately. Get the alternator thrown in of course.

Although not common, don't write off the possibility of finding a 4.6 X5 engine.

N62 while tempting won't allow you to re-use your headers, they changed the pattern. But.....find an S62? That puppy will drop right in. But you will have to add a few items to make it work.

Mark D. has a chip for thison the shelf btw.

[K Fox]

To be clear, the cylinder walls are not 4mm thick, the web between 2 cylinders is 4mm thick. That means 2 cylinder walls combined, plus the space for water in between equals 4mm. So really the cylinders walls are about 1mm thick.

But yeah, I agree with everything you said.

Actually, the cylinder walls are 4 mm thick in between the adjacent cylinders - there is no space in between them for water, it's solid. Again, this was the stock setup for the S62's.


Valid points, all of you. I wish I could run the M62 with my existing harness and ECU... 4mm or less between cylinders is not comforting, though. Didn't know that would happen.

From what I've read Moroza's thread and a couple of others, I need to install a spacer from the crank sensor, weld the cam sensor a certain way, and install a 2mm spacer for the cams. I also need to get an M62 head gasket, as the gasket "map" is different from M60 to M62. Am I correct?

Again, if I could run the M60 harness and ECU, I'd do the swap next month... :P

As said above, the 4mm thickness was stock for the S62 engines, and we known how powerful those are. If it was good enough for the engineers to sign off on it for the M5, then it should be good enough for us. I just like more than that if I can. To put it another way, if I was going to bore the block out that far, I'd have the same 4.9l displacement that the S62 has - that would make it worth it in my mind. Otherwise, I'll stick with thicker walls - allows the option of boost later if I decide to. :D

And on the electronics front, yes, you will be using the M60 electronics - the point of converting an M62 is to make it operable on the OBD I setup in the car now. And I'm wondering if you can just use the stock M60 timing covers on the M62?? That's one thing I haven't found the answer for yet, and I don't have both engines in hand to find out myself. If you can use the timing covers as well as the double chain setup from the M60, it's gold. And I think you can, though I'm just not positive. Find the M60 thread by 84318 in here somewhere - he was trying to put M60 heads on an M62 bottom end - which is the package I keep saying is the best option. I haven't been keeping up here as much as I used to, and might have missed progress in that one.

Fox

[84318i]

I've put all the M60B40 timing componets including the crank sprocket on the M62, it all matches up, including the lower timing cover.

Welding and cam spacers and all that is when you want to stick with M62 heads and make it into OBD1...I am not doing that, someone else has done that.

So basically M62 bottom end with M60B40 timing components and front timing cover, no welding needed.

I'll have an update in the next few weeks, should be putting he engine back together with new bearings and gaskets and all :)

Work/school/autocross/life takes time away from this project, but it should start moving quickly soon, have a buyer for my m30b35 as well so that should go nicely to fund the expensive single mass flywheel and two new cats ....

[M3 Euro LTW]

To put it another way, if I was going to bore the block out that far, I'd have the same 4.9l displacement that the S62 has - that would make it worth it in my mind. Otherwise, I'll stick with thicker walls - allows the option of boost later if I decide to. :D

I have not looked at it in a few months....but...

S62 is stroked... to 89 mm (via Wiki, and I believe this is accurate) its not just bored out from 4.8 (or earlier) versions. Its even a bit more stroke than the N62 4.8, and that was only 93mm bore, S62 being 94mm.

BMW has precedent in S14 of boring and stroking later variants of a block, but also changing the casting a little....extra webbing in the Evo 2.5 blocks for example. So I don't know with certainty just how safe it would be to bore a 4.0, or a 4.4 Alusil engine to 94mm "like the S62"... it might be done physically, but without other changes we may not be immediately aware of, not really safe.

BTW, I'm not trying to be a contrarian, far from it, I'm really enjoying the discussion, and have been considering what to do to replace my Nikasil 4.0 in my otherwise just wonderful 60k M-Sport.

I've vascillated between.... don't mess with it, its a grocery getter and drives fine to..... 4.0 replacement with Alusil, to 4.4/4.0 hybrid using my low mileage cylinder heads... but I hate the water cooled alternator...to.... find an S62 and make it something special...... carry on....just trying to be helpful.

[Shoomakan]

Many thanks to 84318i for the PMs and the help. I'll continue this in my thread when I get the swap going....

[K Fox]

I have not looked at it in a few months....but...

S62 is stroked... to 89 mm (via Wiki, and I believe this is accurate) its not just bored out from 4.8 (or earlier) versions. Its even a bit more stroke than the N62 4.8, and that was only 93mm bore, S62 being 94mm.

BMW has precedent in S14 of boring and stroking later variants of a block, but also changing the casting a little....extra webbing in the Evo 2.5 blocks for example. So I don't know with certainty just how safe it would be to bore a 4.0, or a 4.4 Alusil engine to 94mm "like the S62"... it might be done physically, but without other changes we may not be immediately aware of, not really safe.

BTW, I'm not trying to be a contrarian, far from it, I'm really enjoying the discussion, and have been considering what to do to replace my Nikasil 4.0 in my otherwise just wonderful 60k M-Sport.

I've vascillated between.... don't mess with it, its a grocery getter and drives fine to..... 4.0 replacement with Alusil, to 4.4/4.0 hybrid using my low mileage cylinder heads... but I hate the water cooled alternator...to.... find an S62 and make it something special...... carry on....just trying to be helpful.

Oh yeah, I know the S62 is also stroked compared to the other V8 blocks, hence why I said I'd go all the way with the displacement is I were to go with the 94mm bore. As for pssoble differences between the S and M variants, from what I've read the S62 block is the same as the M62 - the differences between the engines were in the heads on those. S engines got cross cooling and port work, as well as the ITB's, of course. But the blocks are reported to be the same between them. I spent a while reading both here and M6 board, and remember a little. I was trying to figure out what I wanted as a final product, and it came down to the M62 bottom end after all was said and done in my mind. Best bang for the buck when you're done. Especially with M60 heads and timing gear just bolting right up (thanks 84318 for confirming - I was figuring it would all work, but haven't be able to prove it yet). So there it is - now who's gonna get the proof up and running first??!? :stickoutt

Fox (so many things I want, and not enough play money to do them all)

P.S. On what to do with the Nik engine in your M-sport - drive it. Until it gives you reason to worry, just drive the piss out of it. It's what I do to both of mine. :stickoutt

[DUDMD]

I think I will do an M60/M62 frankenstein in the future, just have to blow up the M60 first.

[Shoomakan]

I'm going M62 hunting today.. HOPEFULLY I can find just a block since I need nothing else from it. :)

[sticky280zx]

Ok so after looking through a few threads I've found a lot of info and some (well most actually) gets confusing because of so many people asking random questions....so in short does anyone have a "shit list" of parts/tuning to get this all together and running? Ive grown up working on old nissans and they have easily swapped heads on 3different bottom ends, but all the same timing parts, no ecu junk, cam sensors etc...but also have to have standalone for tuning vs "chips," just figured it would help a lot of people in the end....also if the cams are the same for the 3.0 and 4.0 the 530 guys (like myself) could just use their existing heads vs getting the 4.0s correct?

So in all....

M62/ 4.4L bottom mated to 3L or 4L heads, (change over dual timing chain setup and timing cover,which requires pulling crank bolt)......

Now do you need to mess with the cam sensor stuff still or that's fixed by changing the timing cover stuff, correct (if not does someone sell a "bolt on kit" for that issue)?? And then as far as tuning what would be the best/easiest/cheapest options (and ofcourse biggest bang for the buck)?

Oh yea, almost forgot about the trans.... Will the stock 5 or 6speed from our e34's work (bolt in or adapterplate) or do we need to grab an e39 trans?

Sorry if there are any "stupid" questions but after reading two threads at 10-15pages each my mind is bottled...."you know like when you mind is trapped inside of a bottle" =D

[K Fox]

Ok so after looking through a few threads I've found a lot of info and some (well most actually) gets confusing because of so many people asking random questions....so in short does anyone have a "shit list" of parts/tuning to get this all together and running? Ive grown up working on old nissans and they have easily swapped heads on 3different bottom ends, but all the same timing parts, no ecu junk, cam sensors etc...but also have to have standalone for tuning vs "chips," just figured it would help a lot of people in the end....also if the cams are the same for the 3.0 and 4.0 the 530 guys (like myself) could just use their existing heads vs getting the 4.0s correct?

So in all....

M62/ 4.4L bottom mated to 3L or 4L heads, (change over dual timing chain setup and timing cover,which requires pulling crank bolt)......

Now do you need to mess with the cam sensor stuff still or that's fixed by changing the timing cover stuff, correct (if not does someone sell a "bolt on kit" for that issue)?? And then as far as tuning what would be the best/easiest/cheapest options (and ofcourse biggest bang for the buck)?

Oh yea, almost forgot about the trans.... Will the stock 5 or 6speed from our e34's work (bolt in or adapterplate) or do we need to grab an e39 trans?

Sorry if there are any "stupid" questions but after reading two threads at 10-15pages each my mind is bottled...."you know like when you mind is trapped inside of a bottle" =D

Off the top of my head (I'm about asleep so confirm everything) it goes like this: I believe there are more differences between the 3.0l heads and 4.0l heads, not the least of which is the combustion chamber. Probably port differences too. The stock manual tranny's from the E34 cars are fine, though of course the 6th gear is quite nice to have (the 5 speed is the same gearing but without the overdrive 6th gear). The E39 6 speed is the same as the E34 one, just more common. As for the sensor issues, if you use the M60 chains and covers then there should be any issues - the sensors are located in the timing covers. Tuning: WAR chip for being reprogrammable, or a custom tune from a local race shop with the ability. I vote WAR, myself. Standalone setup is always an option also, but is a lot more expensive.

As for a list of goodies, 84318 basically has that in his thread, and said he'd post an update with all the info as soon as he's done. That's the best list I can think of, as he's actually doing what we're talking about. Just give him the time to finish it up and you'll have what you want. ;)

Fox (gonna pass out now)

[DUDMD]

I will be doing my build with a standalone, so that I can run a 4bar map sensor and easily tune any size injectors I want. Plus that would give me datalogging and a bunch of safety features.

[Shoomakan]

According to 84318i, simply installing an M62 block instead of the M60 and SWAPPING over everything else will work. However, custom timing cover gaskets will be needed. And of course, a tune to compensate for the displacement.

I spoke to a couple of mechanics here who in theory confirmed that; they also stated that the gasket would be different and that you'd need to swap the chain sprockets from the M60 to the M62.

[84318i]

Yeah, the m60 crank sprocket swaps over on to the m62 crank. I think I've posted pictures of them side by side as well.

[UnrulyGrace]

Bumping this to see if anyone here knows the specs of the Dinan camshafts for the M60. Anyone? I've called Dinan and haven't received an answer yet.