Give me some impressions/reviews of VF supercharger

[bligity]

I have searched a ton but can't find many thorough reviews. I am very close to pulling trigger on the VF kit but want to hear other people's input and thoughts. TIA!

[Msilvia]

Other than the fact that there is no stage 2(cooling options) offered, and it comes with a crappy GIAC tune and bad customer service history, nothing! Go for it!

mymods.com came up with a stage 2 intercooler system that relocates the PS reservoir, but I was talking to a guy running it...because of the long piping used, he was at 1-2 psi at full boost. You will also have to retune the car. With all this money and effort, just go turbo and have more fun.

Seriously though, save up and go turbo from the start; you'll regret it down the road with a SC. With the very very high intake charge temperatures that will be forced into the motor, the car will feel almost stock after about 30 minutes of driving. Look up heat soak.

[shamulater]

I have searched a ton but can't find many thorough reviews. I am very close to pulling trigger on the VF kit but want to hear other people's input and thoughts. TIA! I'm very pleased with the kit. Car drives totally normal until you start exceeding 4,000 rpm...then it really comes alive. Even get better MPG than I did before during normal driving. Have no issues with heat soak but thats more a result of my driving style than anything else...just wanted that occassional boost in power which honestly doesn't happen that often. Think the most important thing is to honestly decide what you want from your car. If you feel you might be inclined to want more power as time goes by...then definitely go turbo...no debate there. If you're a more relaxed driver and just want a bit more HP every now and then, the VF system fits this bill well.:)

[RRSperry]

The only reason I went with VF (I was one of the first to buy it), was the promise of the intercooled intake manifold. Nic assured me that it would come along in about 6 months. HE LIED. They dropped the E36 guys like a red headed step child as soon as they started working on the E46.

If you are thinking of a new centri SC kit, pass on the VF. Get an HKS from Active Autowerks, or a RMS/Dinan setup.

Looking back on it, I should have just bought a turbo system from Technique Tuning. The up side is I have saved a lot of money that would have been spent on more power..lol

With the VF kit you can upgrade to a 3.5" HFM 38#/hr injectors, a 3.33" sc pully and tuning from Active. Along with an Aquamist 1S or other form of spray cooling, you can run about 9 psi and make over 300 rwhp. (you will lose to a turbo when doing freeway pulls, but really isn't that big a deal when the road gets twisty.

[bligity]

Great info from both point of views. And I do understand how it may be fitting for one person and not so much for another with separate goals in mind. I am not looking for the fastest street car or a 1/4 monster. I just came out of an 500hp s4 and don't want/need that again. This car is so much more fun to drive and that's what I want to retain. I do want more punch, a little more to almost just stay up with today's power trends in the industry.

Does the VF kit retain a nice stock like drivability? Meaning, it's not obvious that you all of a sudden hit boost and it's either on or off. I had a 996 supercharged and it was great but just pulled normal till about 5500 then was like a rocket ship till redline at (I think) 7k. It was fun but like I said I just love the way the M3 drives and would hope for same driving instincts but more power. I like the fact that I can go around a corner and with a linear power band I can judge a full throttle turn in the M. And lastly, I want reliability. Main reason for dumping the S4 was that and I would assume with a mild SC it's install it and continue on with life.

Thanks again for the input since it is a larger financial decision and hopefully I can join the SC club soon.

[MasterKwan]

I do want more punch, a little more to almost just stay up with today's power trends in the industry.

You should consider a new diff then. It's the most bang for the buck on these cars. 3:46/3:64 and it's both easier to install and cheaper. You could still SC later if you need more.

[shamulater]

Does the VF kit retain a nice stock like drivability? Meaning, it's not obvious that you all of a sudden hit boost and it's either on or off. I had a 996 supercharged and it was great but just pulled normal till about 5500 then was like a rocket ship till redline at (I think) 7k. It was fun but like I said I just love the way the M3 drives and would hope for same driving instincts but more power. I like the fact that I can go around a corner and with a linear power band I can judge a full throttle turn in the M. And lastly, I want reliability. Main reason for dumping the S4 was that and I would assume with a mild SC it's install it and continue on with life.

Thanks again for the input since it is a larger financial decision and hopefully I can join the SC club soon.
Car feels stock below 4,000...after that it's very linear pull all the way up to 7,000...there is no sudden spikes in power but you do most definitely feel the extra power with the increase in RPM's. There is nothing unpredictable about how the power comes on...no surges. Still new to the F/I game so can't comment on reliablity but from what I've read...no real issues.

[RRSperry]

Just a bit more from me. It's feels just like stock in power delivery, just more everywhere. Especially above say 3.5K rpm.

[CMG]

I think the main thing about the vf kit is that it is half the price of the others.

[23turbo]

I have one and I like it. Like other poster said, car retains stock driveablity and if you stay out of boost you should be able to achieve near stock fuel economy. I have an older kit with the V2-SC unit which is a bit louder and produces slight rattle at idle, however I believe they use V3-SQ('super quiet') units with their current kits. Haven't heard one in person so I cannot say how much quieter they are. Just make sure your car is in optimal tune beforehand and all maintenence is up to date. I did have to take mine into dealer to have an update on the ECM performed before sending it to VF for the GIAC tune.

[shamulater]

I have one and I like it. Like other poster said, car retains stock driveablity and if you stay out of boost you should be able to achieve near stock fuel economy. I have an older kit with the V2-SC unit which is a bit louder and produces slight rattle at idle, however I believe they use V3-SQ('super quiet') units with their current kits. Haven't heard one in person so I cannot say how much quieter they are. Just make sure your car is in optimal tune beforehand and all maintenence is up to date. I did have to take mine into dealer to have an update on the ECM performed before sending it to VF for the GIAC tune. V3 here and we have the slight rattle at idle too. Supercharger whine under throttle is nearly nonexistant with hood closed.

[bligity]

Is a m50 manifold a strong supporting mod with The SC?

[EisnerRacing]

Other than the fact that there is no stage 2(cooling options) offered, and it comes with a crappy GIAC tune and bad customer service history, nothing! Go for it!

mymods.com came up with a stage 2 intercooler system that relocates the PS reservoir, but I was talking to a guy running it...because of the long piping used, he was at 1-2 psi at full boost. You will also have to retune the car. With all this money and effort, just go turbo and have more fun.

Seriously though, save up and go turbo from the start; you'll regret it down the road with a SC. With the very very high intake charge temperatures that will be forced into the motor, the car will feel almost stock after about 30 minutes of driving. Look up heat soak.


Yup up but I love mine with a 8psi pillie and a nick G tune - it's reliable and pulls like a freight train
but if I could do it again I'd buy the active autowetke HKS system also has stage 2 option

- - - Updated - - -

I love the whine of my v2
no rattle from the head - but my 10.5 alum flywheel chatters as all of them do

[1000hp]

I want reliability. Main reason for dumping the S4 was that
You could probably put a carbureted nitrous rotary engine in this car and it would still be more reliable than a B5 S4.

[stefan15]

New update (2014)
Since VF has switched to a MAF system and a different tuning approach, I am very happy with the kit. It runs exactly as it should and I can now understand the original vision of the design. It's a very linear, smooth power delivery that one would not even realize was supercharged unless told. It pulls much harder than an E46 M3. I don't have ANY problems with cooling and am achieving approximately 5.5psi at 3300ft using their new tune with the smaller pulley.



Ignore the old material below, this was before a change in process at VF and the new tune:

My thoughts..
- poorly fitted discharge/intake ducting
- prohibitively bad customer service
- tune (no maf) depends on throttle position
- runs rich--can be corrected in tune but they never responded after selling me the remote tuning kit...
- discharge pipe contacts hood on idle dips (tuning again)
- extremely hard to make everything fit well with no boost leaks

Pros:
- stock feel, actually feels a lot like e46 in terms of power profile.
- looks good if you can make it all fit.. good luck with that
- fuel econ, noise, drivability, all good.
- no cooling issues noted so far
- I'm actually only getting 4psi due to altitude but it is quick, power delivery is good

My 2c, go AA instead. With better service and recognition of their faults VF would be much better. It was only after I changed virtually every possible contributing part that they offered to help. By selling me a hex cable basically. It's been a month since they received the tune without even acknowledgement. So keep that in mind.

[Eric98Sedan]

My thoughts..
- poorly fitted discharge/intake ducting
- prohibitively bad customer service
- tune (no maf) depends on throttle position
- runs rich--can be corrected in tune but they never responded after selling me the remote tuning kit...
- discharge pipe contacts hood on idle dips (tuning again)
- extremely hard to make everything fit well with no boost leaks

Pros:
- stock feel, actually feels a lot like e46 in terms of power profile.
- looks good if you can make it all fit.. good luck with that
- fuel econ, noise, drivability, all good.
- no cooling issues noted so far


My 2c, go AA instead.

Great input. Do you notice any loss of power, ever?

[stefan15]

Great input. Do you notice any loss of power, ever? once I replaced their original discharge pipe With another one and improved couplers (from VF, was not cheap), no. No power loss whatsoever. Very strong pulls every time albeit quite rich.
Search for VF350 install notes for my thread on install.

Edit: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1999935-E36-VF350-Installation-Notes

[Eric98Sedan]

Cool. So currently you're running the kit "out of the box" other than the discharge pipe and couplers? (I will read your thread)

[EisnerRacing]

i have a vf kit and fit is really good - just tight and takes longe to install
no leaks - got a smaller pullie and a Technique Tuning Nick G tune and 8-9 psi and i love it
strong and drives like it did before during everyday driving under 3.5k-4k shifts

service might be a pain in the ass later since the vf kit takes up every bit of room under the hood

but I really like the HKS AA kit

[stefan15]

Cool. So currently you're running the kit "out of the box" other than the discharge pipe and couplers? (I will read your thread)
That's right, and that's only because they didn't send me the right parts to start with, but after pulling some teeth and paying them, got better fitting ones.

Still running the stock OTS tune.


edit: see updates in post above. VF has changed their approach and this kit is really quite good for the money now. I can recommend it.

[copcarguyp71]

So I am going to revive a zombie thread here...

Thinking on going with the VF kit as for some reason the AA kit is now a thousand dollars more for pretty much the same kit with pretty much the same claimed HP and torque as near as I can tell and like others said the Stage 2 is outrageously priced. Any newer reviews on these SC kits? Been a good couple of years since this thread was last updated and I wanted to make sure neither manufacturer has fallen off their game. Also has anyone come up with a stage-2 turnkey kit other than hobbling something together on eBay?

[GG///M3]

I would never get a kit that you couldn't easily add some sort of intercooler/water cooling heat exchanger system to.

[copcarguyp71]

Well...I guess the problem is that AA wants $2900 to add a stage 2 intercooler and VF does not offer one. RMS gets pretty ratty reviews and the info I got from them over the phone was sketchy at best besides the fact that Tex (whoever that is) was talking to someone else in the background the whole time I was on the phone before we got "disconnected". I've not really made my mind up either way so looking for options and opinions. No, I am not interested in turbo charging so that is kind of off the table for me. I've got my own reasons for that but only really looking for thoughts on SC at this point.

[GG///M3]

Well...I guess the problem is that AA wants $2900 to add a stage 2 intercooler and VF does not offer one. RMS gets pretty ratty reviews and the info I got from them over the phone was sketchy at best besides the fact that Tex (whoever that is) was talking to someone else in the background the whole time I was on the phone before we got "disconnected". I've not really made my mind up either way so looking for options and opinions. No, I am not interested in turbo charging so that is kind of off the table for me. I've got my own reasons for that but only really looking for thoughts on SC at this point.

The RMS hardware is great just don't go with their tuning, or get a turbo kit from TRM or Technica . I'd rather have a turbo kit over a sc kit . Get a stage 1 for the stock head gasket 8psi will be much faster then a stage 2 sc kit.

[abradic]

Call AA and try to work a deal, maybe they will match their stage 1 price with VF's....and may even cut you a bit of a deal for a stage 2 upgrade in the future or cut you a deal on a stage 2 right off the bat. It doesn't hurt to check into it.

*Edit

It appears that AA is having a sale on their SC Kits, and it looks like the stage 1 is $1,000 off right now making it $4500. I would imagine stage 2 is $1000 off as well making that $5995.

[copcarguyp71]

Wow...well that is good but kinda pisses me off. I inquired about two weeks ago if they had any sales coming up or promotions and was literally told the following via email on Feb 3rd...

Hi,


The E36 SC kit is quite inexpensive so we do not discount them, actually we may have to raise the cost or discontinue them. We already discontinued the 325i kit due to low sales and increasing cost of the parts.


Unfortunately the cars are getting cheaper, but the components are not.


Thanks,



Robert Hugh

Director of Sales

Active Autowerke

(305)233-9300 office

(305)253-8921 fax

rhugh@activeautowerke.com

www.activeautowerke.com (http://www.activeautowerke.com/)


I guess I shouldn't complain but if this guy knew they were having a sale (director of sales must have know this) then he was looking to soak me for an extra $1000....which makes me question the integrity of the manufacturer at that point.

- - - Updated - - -

Wow...well after some digging it turns out this guy is actually also the president....even worse for their ethics. Nope, I guess they are out of the running.

[GG///M3]

Wow...well that is good but kinda pisses me off. I inquired about two weeks ago if they had any sales coming up or promotions and was literally told the following via email on Feb 3rd...

Hi,


The E36 SC kit is quite inexpensive so we do not discount them, actually we may have to raise the cost or discontinue them. We already discontinued the 325i kit due to low sales and increasing cost of the parts.


Unfortunately the cars are getting cheaper, but the components are not.


Thanks,



Robert Hugh

Director of Sales

Active Autowerke

(305)233-9300 office

(305)253-8921 fax

rhugh@activeautowerke.com

www.activeautowerke.com (http://www.activeautowerke.com/)


I guess I shouldn't complain but if this guy knew they were having a sale (director of sales must have know this) then he was looking to soak me for an extra $1000....which makes me question the integrity of the manufacturer at that point.

- - - Updated - - -

Wow...well after some digging it turns out this guy is actually also the president....even worse for their ethics. Nope, I guess they are out of the running.

Maybe he doesn't handle their sales department? I wouldn't be shocked if after they sell off whatever kits they have in stock they will not be producing that kit anymore. Another reason to just go turbo if you want F/I.

[abradic]

Wow...well that is good but kinda pisses me off. I inquired about two weeks ago if they had any sales coming up or promotions and was literally told the following via email on Feb 3rd...

Hi,


The E36 SC kit is quite inexpensive so we do not discount them, actually we may have to raise the cost or discontinue them. We already discontinued the 325i kit due to low sales and increasing cost of the parts.


Unfortunately the cars are getting cheaper, but the components are not.


Thanks,



Robert Hugh

Director of Sales

Active Autowerke

(305)233-9300 office

(305)253-8921 fax

rhugh@activeautowerke.com

www.activeautowerke.com (http://www.activeautowerke.com/)


I guess I shouldn't complain but if this guy knew they were having a sale (director of sales must have know this) then he was looking to soak me for an extra $1000....which makes me question the integrity of the manufacturer at that point.

- - - Updated - - -

Wow...well after some digging it turns out this guy is actually also the president....even worse for their ethics. Nope, I guess they are out of the running.

Yeah, not sure what to make of that and whether or not they knew. I just put their SC kit on last year and they were saying they may discontinue the E36 kits at some point. However the parts should still be available as the blower is used on other models. The VF kit looks like a good kit too, but not having a stage 2 option is what drove me away from them. Others may disagree but I think an intercooler is a must with a FI system. You should have support from AA even if they discontinue the kit, they seem to have a good reputation of support, and so far I am happy with kit. The tune feels good too (had them tune it in person on the dyno). If you want to stay Vortech you may be better off getting the RMS kit that offers a stage 2, and getting it tuned by someone like Nick G or possibly AA if they want to take it on.

[copcarguyp71]

Well...I have some serious difficulty in believing the Director of Sales who is also the President of the company did not know about a sale they had coming up...I guess I could be wrong but it feels like I was going to be soaked for an extra $1k.

Also...no, no, no....I am NOT going turbo so that is not helping at all. Please stick to SC companies for recommendations.

[DamnYank]

I had a VF kit on my 95 for a couple years. My opinion, just not worth the money. Heat soak sucks - whether it be in traffic or during hot lapping the car attrack days. Say goodbye to any real improvement in power at that point.
And centrifugal blowers don't really help with bottom end, off the line speed. Some people say they prefer the linearity... if I had it to do over and still did an SC I'd have gone with a screw/roots design hands down.
I pulled the blower off, sold the whole kit, am back to NA and I'm happy with it. If I want more power it'd be with an engine swap or a different car. With good suspension, full exhaust, 3.5" intake/MAF setup, injectors, and tune my car is a lot of fun and is consistent. Riot Racing cams and big bore TB are going on in the next week and the car will be 'done'.

[1000hp]

Here's how I resolved the intercooling issue...


http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?2285792-My-Water-Air-Intercooler-Setup

[olemiss540]

Here's how I resolved the intercooling issue...

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?2285792-My-Water-Air-Intercooler-Setup

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?2284999-S50-52-Aftercooled-Intake-Manifold-Heat-Exhanger-System

Here's how I had handled mine!

[1000hp]

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?2284999-S50-52-Aftercooled-Intake-Manifold-Heat-Exhanger-System

Here's how I had handled mine!
That is sweet. Way outside my budget, but I would love to have something like that.

[rajicase]

I don't understand why anyone goes stage 1 SC with a centri type blower.

When I was NA I pulled on a VF stage 1 SCed m3. Makes more sense to max out the S52 NA vs. a stage 1 SC IMO. A) Much more reliable, B) Cheaper, C) Easier to work on, D) No heat soak....

Even a very well dialed in, non-IC stage 1 centri SC s52 would not be much faster than a tapped out NA s52.. I see no benefit.

[1000hp]

I don't understand why anyone goes stage 1 SC with a centri type blower.

When I was NA I pulled on a VF stage 1 SCed m3. Makes more sense to max out the S52 NA vs. a stage 1 SC IMO. A) Much more reliable, B) Cheaper, C) Easier to work on, D) No heat soak....

Even a very well dialed in, non-IC stage 1 centri SC s52 would not be much faster than a tapped out NA s52.. I see no benefit.
In my case, I probably spent less on my entire setup, including custom water/air intercooler setup, than you did on your big gnarly cams and necessary valvetrain upgrades. And I can add boost. Your big-cam n/a S52 was, as you said, tapped-out, which is why you ended up going turbo. And time will tell on the reliability of that setup (no disrespect meant).

Different strokes for different folks.

Also, my car before the intercooler was MUCH faster than it was with full bolt-ons (mild cams). I don't know how quick your car was with the Sunbelts, but for me the difference was night and day. And that is with very low boost (5psi)

[abradic]

I had a VF kit on my 95 for a couple years. My opinion, just not worth the money. Heat soak sucks - whether it be in traffic or during hot lapping the car attrack days. Say goodbye to any real improvement in power at that point.
And centrifugal blowers don't really help with bottom end, off the line speed. Some people say they prefer the linearity... if I had it to do over and still did an SC I'd have gone with a screw/roots design hands down.
I pulled the blower off, sold the whole kit, am back to NA and I'm happy with it. If I want more power it'd be with an engine swap or a different car. With good suspension, full exhaust, 3.5" intake/MAF setup, injectors, and tune my car is a lot of fun and is consistent. Riot Racing cams and big bore TB are going on in the next week and the car will be 'done'.

To me it feels like it improved all over, even down low. I have to peddle the throttle off the line to avoid the tires going up in smoke, and the throttle response is stock like instant. The car gets into it's power band a bit quicker when down low when compared to stock. No doubt the biggest improvement is 4k rpm and on, it's a huge difference, but there is a slight improvement down low too. Is it down low like a turbo? No, it doesn't have the down low torque of a turbo. The throttle response has been better though. At 2500 rpm say in 2nd or 3rd, you'll have instant throttle response and the ramp up happens pretty quickly. As you cross 4k rpm it just takes off. The run from 2500-4000 rpm is quick, quicker than when stock. You don't get the big torque kick like you would with a turbo, but there is a slight lag in a turbo car when starting out of boost like that too before you get buried in that seat and take off. My personal observations on the differences. I imagine a stage 1 setup might be a bit different if heat soak sets in.

[RRSperry]

I don't understand why anyone goes stage 1 SC with a centri type blower.

When I was NA I pulled on a VF stage 1 SCed m3. Makes more sense to max out the S52 NA vs. a stage 1 SC IMO. A) Much more reliable, B) Cheaper, C) Easier to work on, D) No heat soak....

Even a very well dialed in, non-IC stage 1 centri SC s52 would not be much faster than a tapped out NA s52.. I see no benefit.

Thats very hard to believe....

[pbonsalb]

Rajicase probably had a 275 rwhp E36M3, and some stage 1 superchargers will put down only that, and maybe less in hot weather. But set up right, a stage 1 supercharger with a little more boost can do more like 325 rwhp and should leave the naturally aspirated 275 rwhp car behind, assuming weights are equal. Drop 15% weight and the 275 rwhp NA car might equal the 325 rwhp stock weight supercharged car.

[1000hp]

Rajicase probably had a 275 rwhp E36M3, and some stage 1 superchargers will put down only that, and maybe less in hot weather. But set up right, a stage 1 supercharger with a little more boost can do more like 325 rwhp and should leave the naturally aspirated 275 rwhp car behind, assuming weights are equal. Drop 15% weight and the 275 rwhp NA car might equal the 325 rwhp stock weight supercharged car.
Mine made 322whp with 5psi and no intercooler, but also has all of the bolt-ons. I drove the car that my S/C was previously installed on, which was an S50 car with Euro headers and a catback only, and it was probably not much faster than a really good n/a car. My car was a totally different animal even without charge cooling, but the heat soak was a real problem.

[Da Infammus 1]

Thats very hard to believe....

Shouldn't be hard to believe, I also did it twice while being N/A. 1st car wasn't intercooled and after the 1st run which I won, the difference grew. 2nd car had an after cooling system but still lost, albeit by a lot less than the 1st car. Full bore N/A S52 can be impressive if done right, and inexpensive if you search for the parts like I did. I was able to beat a lot of cars that had a hard time believing I was N/A.

I wouldn't put a centrifugal s/c on an e36 cooled or not, I'd rather go twin screw or something of that sort.

[1000hp]

Shouldn't be hard to believe, I also did it twice while being N/A. 1st car wasn't intercooled and after the 1st run which I won, the difference grew. 2nd car had an after cooling system but still lost, albeit by a lot less than the 1st car. Full bore N/A S52 can be impressive if done right, and inexpensive if you search for the parts like I did. I was able to beat a lot of cars that had a hard time believing I was N/A.

I wouldn't put a centrifugal s/c on an e36 cooled or not, I'd rather go twin screw or something of that sort.
Calvin's track-prepped car (3mpowered? I forget his username) made 270-something wheel horsepower with a built stock-displacement S52 with aggressive cams, KK stepped headers, custom 3" exhaust, and all manner of high-quality, high-dollar mods and proper tuning.
I made 50 more horsepower with 5 pounds of boost. Fifty. You are not going to pull away from a car with a 50 horsepower advantage, all else being equal. You're just not.
I did see a loss of about 15hp / 15lbft with a heat-soaked system on the dyno. Figure a 35hp advantage on a hot, tired S/C car with no intercooler. Again, all else being equal, your n/a car is not going to be faster than that.
Now, if both cars are making 275whp, and the s/c car loses 20% of that to heat soak, obviously the n/a car now has the advantage. But that was not my experience with a "stage-1" centrifugal supercharger setup on my car.

[Da Infammus 1]

Calvin's track-prepped car (3mpowered? I forget his username) made 270-something wheel horsepower with a built stock-displacement S52 with aggressive cams, KK stepped headers, custom 3" exhaust, and all manner of high-quality, high-dollar mods and proper tuning.
I made 50 more horsepower with 5 pounds of boost. Fifty. You are not going to pull away from a car with a 50 horsepower advantage, all else being equal. You're just not.
I did see a loss of about 15hp / 15lbft with a heat-soaked system on the dyno. Figure a 35hp advantage on a hot, tired S/C car with no intercooler. Again, all else being equal, your n/a car is not going to be faster than that.
Now, if both cars are making 275whp, and the s/c car loses 20% of that to heat soak, obviously the n/a car now has the advantage. But that was not my experience with a "stage-1" centrifugal supercharger setup on my car.

All else being equal is where things change. My car was a little lighter than both the s/c cars I raced and my cams are slightly more aggressive than Calvin's, 282 vs my 286's and I also had an excellent dyno tune from Randy Mueller. I'm just telling you what I experienced myself 1st hand. I've pulled on a bunch of cars I shouldn't have on paper, e39 M5, e92 M3, etc. It happens. Which is why we race in real life and not on paper. Either way, my setup proved to be cheaper and the power was more consistent than a centrifugal s/c which is why if I were to add forced induction it would be t/s or turbo. Just my POV.

[pbonsalb]

Centrifugal can be good. I did 463/368 SAE Dynojet in the final system I ran, backed up by a 466/354 on a different Dynojet in SAE. But I would not bother with a stage 1 non intercooled kit that is going to make more like 300 rwhp under ideal conditions and less when hot.

[RRSperry]

E39M5 and a 92M3? They weren't trying... Unless you have a 2300# E36 with a 3.64 diff, and you only race to 120... and they were in 6th gear... You aren't winning those races..

[rajicase]

^^He has vids of dozens of races beating cars that on paper look like they would be unbeatable by an e36 m3. Unless you think that every car he has videos of walking weren't trying, well... he did win those races and there is tons of clear documentation.

I had the same set up as him before going turbo, and I walked modded e46 m3s, walked VF SC e36 m3, bolt on 370s, lightly modded evo X, etc. I guess none of them were trying though, even though they were all shocked they just lost to a 21 year old BMW.

[Gordo0208]

E39M5 and a 92M3? They weren't trying... Unless you have a 2300# E36 with a 3.64 diff, and you only race to 120... and they were in 6th gear... You aren't winning those races..

LOLOL


Chris! How does it feel when you read idiotic comments like this? It makes me rofl in tears lol =D

Hey Perry, watch the vid man
E36 vs MS3's/E92/etc.
http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2219577

I don't remember if any of the M5 or E46 M3's are on this one but the last ones an E92.
I suggest you spend some time in the Kill Stories section.

[Da Infammus 1]

E39M5 and a 92M3? They weren't trying... Unless you have a 2300# E36 with a 3.64 diff, and you only race to 120... and they were in 6th gear... You aren't winning those races..


^^He has vids of dozens of races beating cars that on paper look like they would be unbeatable by an e36 m3. Unless you think that every car he has videos of walking weren't trying, well... he did win those races and there is tons of clear documentation.

I had the same set up as him before going turbo, and I walked modded e46 m3s, walked VF SC e36 m3, bolt on 370s, lightly modded evo X, etc. I guess none of them were trying though, even though they were all shocked they just lost to a 21 year old BMW.

Also my setup had a few tweaks as compared to Raji's. Mine had weight reduction, 3.38 gears, the cams were degreed and the car was dyno tuned by Randy Mueller, Port matched 70mm e34 540i TB, Portmatched exhaust runners to the ceramic coated long tube headers, custom collector, etc.


LOLOL


Chris! How does it feel when you read idiotic comments like this? It makes me rofl in tears lol =D

Hey Perry, watch the vid man
E36 vs MS3's/E92/etc.
http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2219577

I don't remember if any of the M5 or E46 M3's are on this one but the last ones an E92.
I suggest you spend some time in the Kill Stories section.

It's nothing new to me, I hear it all the time you know that lol. It's become commonplace by now.

Here's a few examples for you:
VS Bolt ons/tune/weight redux E46 M3 6 speed: https://youtu.be/t5jgnxuu-cI
VS 332is, basically a shell with bolt ons/tune/diff s52 swapped 323is: https://youtu.be/HrZ4zCQM--0
VS E92 M3 6spd, don't know what else he had on it besides gutted exhaust: https://youtu.be/fLiYuMidMpc?t=3m56s
VS Two E39 M5's: https://youtu.be/jw8qYXnse3c
VS Bolt ons/Tune SMG E46 M3: https://youtu.be/xvTlHZcwguc
Same car after FBO/New Tune/CSL trans sofware: https://youtu.be/Eg5UrR0MwMA
VS Another E39 M5: https://youtu.be/4J0rSueaiEY?t=10m59s

These runs were done with varying degrees of mods over time. Car has also been to Sebring, autocross, etc. It's pretty well rounded but spent most of it's time being DD'd. So yeah, I'd say it's not the norm, but obviously pretty possible if you know what you're doing with the US Spec s52 internally and use quality parts and tuning.

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry to derail the main thread, OP. To go back on topic in my own opinion for what you'd spend going VF supercharged there are other routes to make more power for the money. If choosing to go centrifugal, don't bother with stage one and go straight to an intercooled/aftercooled system.

[1000hp]

Good kills all around, but none of those cars should be faster than an s/c s52, unless the the s/c car is bone stock other than the supercharger.

But now I'm bench racing like a true internet wanker. How much did your car weigh anyway?

OP: actual legitimate response... My car feels great with what amounts to an intercooled 'stage 1' s/c plus full bolt ons. I would do it again because I spent very little on it, because I got the blower itself for free.
If I were looking at spending what a new (or higher-end used) kit would cost, I would probably nod along with the other FI bobble heads and say "go turbo instead." The main reason for that is that you aren't going to make the same flat power curve and big chunk of torque that you would get from a properly-matched turbo setup.

[Da Infammus 1]

Good kills all around, but none of those cars should be faster than an s/c s52, unless the the s/c car is bone stock other than the supercharger.

But now I'm bench racing like a true internet wanker. How much did your car weigh?

False. Found the thread from kills section.

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?2122473-S-C-e36-M3-vs-Cammed-e36-M3

And that was done with the only weight reduction being removing my back seat and spare tire, on heavy style 264's with run flat tires I bought off of a 135. I think the e39 M5's were faster than the stage1 s/c car and the FBO/CSL e46 would've also given him a run for his money if not won.

The next s/c e36 M3 I raced had RMS aftercooler but I also had more mods done to my car when facing the cooled car, better traction, and more weight reduction. I will say, if I had faced him in the same manner/mods I did againt the non-cooled car I would've lost.

So please, let's stop the bench racing and doubting. I think we all agree that a cooled system is a viable option, but a stg1 system is just pretty much a huge case of heat soak. CJ.Surr and a yellow s/c car from Arizona (that I can't remember the name of) both had some impressive cooled setups, e85 and methanol definitely upping their effectiveness. Haven't seen one non cooled setup that was that impressive to me though.

[pbonsalb]

He is obviously a good driver and experienced street racer, but unless the other driver is a total hack, a lot of the wins are due to power to weight ratio. An E39M5 with driver might have 350 rwhp and weigh 4200 with driver for a power to weight ratio of 1 hp per 12 lbs. A weight reduction highly modded E36M3 might have 285 rwhp and weigh 3100 lbs with driver for a power to weight ratio of 1 hp per 10.8 lbs.

[Da Infammus 1]

He is obviously a good driver and experienced street racer, but unless the other driver is a total hack, a lot of the wins are due to power to weight ratio. An E39M5 with driver might have 350 rwhp and weigh 4200 with driver for a power to weight ratio of 1 hp per 12 lbs. A weight reduction highly modded E36M3 might have 285 rwhp and weigh 3100 lbs with driver for a power to weight ratio of 1 hp per 10.8 lbs.

So with evidence of doing what people say the car and setup can't/shouldnt/won't do, instead of "good build, good driver, and good results", it's relegated to my opponents being crappy drivers and power to weight ratios and such? Smh, guess I should've expected that from good ol' BF lol. Sorry guys, next time I won't try to add a different perspective from your normal views. Carry on.

[pbonsalb]

If you read what I wrote, I say you are a good driver. After that, its power to weight ratio, as I also wrote. Unless the other car has a superior power to weight ratio but has a crappy driver, which I also pointed out.

If you want congratulations for putting your car together right, you won't get it from me. I don't congratulate people for doing things correctly. Doing things correctly is expected.

The only part that deserves congratulations is the good driving, and I noted that very clearly and in the first 6 words. The rest is math and competent mechanics.

- - - Updated - - -

The videos are good also. I enjoyed watching them. And you are willing to take on any car in your power to weight ratio ball park.

[Da Infammus 1]

If you read what I wrote, I say you are a good driver. After that, its power to weight ratio, as I also wrote. Unless the other car has a superior power to weight ratio but has a crappy driver, which I also pointed out.

If you want congratulations for putting your car together right, you won't get it from me. I don't congratulate people for doing things correctly. Doing things correctly is expected.

The only part that deserves congratulations is the good driving, and I noted that very clearly and in the first 6 words. The rest is math and competent mechanics.

- - - Updated - - -

The videos are good also. I enjoyed watching them. And you are willing to take on any car in your power to weight ratio ball park.

Welp, my bad then lol. I read it wrong and got all sensitive, my apologies. Instead, thanks for the driving compliment lol. I agree that doing things correctly the first time or not doing it at all should be the norm.

[pbonsalb]

It is OK to do stuff wrong as long as you stick with it and get it right. When I started working on cars, I often broke something else while trying to fix something. As I did more and more, I improved.

[abradic]

DaInfammus, have you ever done the 1/4 mile at a track? I saw you comment in one of your youtube vids that you think you can trap around 106, but I'm betting you're at least 110. The way you're able to pull on the M5 and E92 M3 definitely makes me think you're 110+. Out of curiosity, what all have you done for the weight redux?

OP, have you made any kind of decision on what route you plan on going? VF? AA? NA maybe?

[Da Infammus 1]

DaInfammus, have you ever done the 1/4 mile at a track? I saw you comment in one of your youtube vids that you think you can trap around 106, but I'm betting you're at least 110. The way you're able to pull on the M5 and E92 M3 definitely makes me think you're 110+. Out of curiosity, what all have you done for the weight redux?

OP, have you made any kind of decision on what route you plan on going? VF? AA? NA maybe?

Nope, no time for the track. A lot going on, moving, just had my son, increased volume at work, etc. It's gotten pretty tough to find time to make the hour drive to the track.

[1000hp]

False. Found the thread from kills section.

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?2122473-S-C-e36-M3-vs-Cammed-e36-M3

And that was done with the only weight reduction being removing my back seat and spare tire, on heavy style 264's with run flat tires I bought off of a 135. I think the e39 M5's were faster than the stage1 s/c car and the FBO/CSL e46 would've also given him a run for his money if not won.

The next s/c e36 M3 I raced had RMS aftercooler but I also had more mods done to my car when facing the cooled car, better traction, and more weight reduction. I will say, if I had faced him in the same manner/mods I did againt the non-cooled car I would've lost.

So please, let's stop the bench racing and doubting. I think we all agree that a cooled system is a viable option, but a stg1 system is just pretty much a huge case of heat soak. CJ.Surr and a yellow s/c car from Arizona (that I can't remember the name of) both had some impressive cooled setups, e85 and methanol definitely upping their effectiveness. Haven't seen one non cooled setup that was that impressive to me though.
Soooo...you're saying that your 253 wheel horsepower, 228 wheel torque, nearly full-weight car beat a 340 wheel horsepower, 300 wheel torque car in a roll race? Sounds like something was either seriously wrong with his car, or he was completely full of s*** with those numbers. How else could you possibly explain that?

[Gordo0208]

Soooo...you're saying that your 253 wheel horsepower, 228 wheel torque, nearly full-weight car beat a 340 wheel horsepower, 300 wheel torque car in a roll race? Sounds like something was either seriously wrong with his car, or he was completely full of s*** with those numbers. How else could you possibly explain that?



253 on a Mustang and 340 on a Dynojet. Different dynos different conditions.
Also consider the guy SAID his car made that much, doesn't mean it's true unless there's a dyno sheet to prove it.
The car isn't intercooled, its at 300whp on a COLD day probably. He was probably closer to 275whp after a couple runs. Notice Chris states "i think the fact he didn't have an inter/aftercooler had a lot to do with it"
Basically everyone in here has said stage 1 isn't worth much.

At this point I really have to ask, you've seen countless videos, why are you still arguing bro?

[Gordo0208]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160307/ad3bb62ff6735f660f422d360c68ff89.jpg

[Da Infammus 1]

253 on a Mustang and 340 on a Dynojet. Different dynos different conditions.
Also consider the guy SAID his car made that much, doesn't mean it's true unless there's a dyno sheet to prove it.
The car isn't intercooled, its at 300whp on a COLD day probably. He was probably closer to 275whp after a couple runs. Notice Chris states "i think the fact he didn't have an inter/aftercooler had a lot to do with it"
Basically everyone in here has said stage 1 isn't worth much.

At this point I really have to ask, you've seen countless videos, why are you still arguing bro?

This +1 lol.

[rajicase]

Soooo...you're saying that your 253 wheel horsepower, 228 wheel torque, nearly full-weight car beat a 340 wheel horsepower, 300 wheel torque car in a roll race? Sounds like something was either seriously wrong with his car, or he was completely full of s*** with those numbers. How else could you possibly explain that?

His M3 was probably closer to 290whp on a dynojet.

[1000hp]

253 on a Mustang and 340 on a Dynojet. Different dynos different conditions.
Also consider the guy SAID his car made that much, doesn't mean it's true unless there's a dyno sheet to prove it.
The car isn't intercooled, its at 300whp on a COLD day probably. He was probably closer to 275whp after a couple runs. Notice Chris states "i think the fact he didn't have an inter/aftercooler had a lot to do with it"
Basically everyone in here has said stage 1 isn't worth much.

At this point I really have to ask, you've seen countless videos, why are you still arguing bro?
If you read my post again, the point I was making is that the other car wasn't making anything like 340whp.
And im still arguing, bro, because going back to the original theme of the thread, I think that even a stage-1 s/c setup is a worthwhile place to start. Depending on how much you pay for the blower setup, you're probably going to spend just as much or more building a strong N/A car. And then you're tapped out. You're only gonna make so much power on a naturally aspirated s52. With a supercharger, there is plenty of room for improvement.
I will add, again, that the first improvement should be some sort of charge cooling. Otherwise when you tell some guy with a bolt-on sedan that you have a bajillion horsepower, you're going to look real silly when you lose.

- - - Updated - - -


His M3 was probably closer to 290whp on a dynojet.
...before the heat cooked it. And that makes a lot more sense.

[rajicase]

I was saying Da Infammus' m3 was probably making close to 290 whp on a dynojet. Since dynojet numbers seem to be the only relevant ones around here, it isn't fair to compare mustang dyno numbers to dynojet numers.

[1000hp]

I was saying Da Infammus' m3 was probably making close to 290 whp on a dynojet. Since dynojet numbers seem to be the only relevant ones around here, it isn't fair to compare mustang dyno numbers to dynojet numers.
At any rate, you don't beat an otherwise nearly identical car with a 50hp advantage in a roll race.

[Gordo0208]

Soooo...you're saying that your 253 wheel horsepower, 228 wheel torque, nearly full-weight car beat a 340 wheel horsepower, 300 wheel torque car in a roll race? Sounds like something was either seriously wrong with his car, or he was completely full of s*** with those numbers. How else could you possibly explain that?

That ENTIRE comment sounds like hate. You could've MAYBE gotten away with "the point I was making" up until you said "Sounds like something was either seriously wrong with his car, or he was completely full of s*** with those numbers. How else could you possibly explain that?"
Mad hate.
Then you go on to say "...before the heat cooked it. And that makes a lot more sense."
Which is a basically an answer to your own question. If you knew the answer to the question why ask it unless the intention was to... Hate... As it clearly was.



If you read my post again, the point I was making is that the other car wasn't making anything like 340whp.
And im still arguing, bro, because going back to the original theme of the thread, I think that even a stage-1 s/c setup is a worthwhile place to start. Depending on how much you pay for the blower setup, you're probably going to spend just as much or more building a strong N/A car. And then you're tapped out. You're only gonna make so much power on a naturally aspirated s52. With a supercharger, there is plenty of room for improvement.


Uhhh... Chris could've still added a supercharger with those cams. What makes you believe his engine was "tapped out" ?
There's higher compression. There's lightening of the rotating assembly. There's boring. There's E85. Uhhh, do you modify engines? Nvm your username states you do, I apologize.


I will add, again, that the first improvement should be some sort of charge cooling. Otherwise when you tell some guy with a bolt-on sedan that you have a bajillion horsepower, you're going to look real silly when you lose.

Possibly the ONLY worth while comment made since Chris' initial comment.

There comes a point where you've said so many negative comments anything after that point just comes off as that, negative. You've reached that point my friend.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160307/93d923447ffd08bca66581ae9a580529.jpg

As you can see the unemployment rate in America is still pretty high and I consider myself a good citizen so I should probably stop trying to detain you from doing your job of hating.

My bad, continue on Mr. 1000hp(Hateful Posts)

Do you.

[Da Infammus 1]

At any rate, you don't beat an otherwise nearly identical car with a 50hp advantage in a roll race.

You keep making this statement as if it's relevant to the race vs the s/c car. What made us identical? Because it was 2 E36 M3's against eachother? We had 2 very different builds, 2 different drivers, different weight, different power, different gearing, different mods, etc. 340/300 s/c car vs 253/228 N/A car doesn't tell the whole story, you shouldn't get stuck on those figures. In the end ET, trap speed, and lap times are what matter. We just chose different ways to achieve ours, mine came out faster in my instances posted.

There are plenty of ways to make a s/c car fast. Just don't expect to outrun nearly anyone substantial without cooling mods.

[olemiss540]

You keep making this statement as if it's relevant to the race vs the s/c car. What made us identical? Because it was 2 E36 M3's against eachother? We had 2 very different builds, 2 different drivers, different weight, different power, different gearing, different mods, etc. 340/300 s/c car vs 253/228 N/A car doesn't tell the whole story, you shouldn't get stuck on those figures. In the end ET, trap speed, and lap times are what matter. We just chose different ways to achieve ours, mine came out faster in my instances posted.

There are plenty of ways to make a s/c car fast. Just don't expect to outrun nearly anyone substantial without cooling mods.

I think why this thread has become so combative is people are insinuating that a stage 1 SC is basically worthless. This is far from the truth and with similar weight/drivers should be able to be driven around town and on weekend and be more fun per dollar than power mods on a NA s50/52. In a 25 min track session, timing is pulled and can have a drastic effect on power, but on the street, my car was quite the handful with a basic SC kit. The hating has gone both ways in this thread...

[Butters Stoch]

Years ago I had an AA stage 1 on a M52. According to Karl, I was the first to try their kit on a M52. The car was very fun. I was able to pull away from a e46 m3 vert a buddy of mine had. I think a stage 1 S/Cer is a great way to "get your toe wet".
With the prices of used kits out there, its real cheap. I don't think buying a new kit is worth it. For the same money, you can collect a good amount of turbo parts.
But finding a used kit with tuning for under 2k would be a good deal. you can always find someone to buy it quick too.

Its a perfect place to start, find out if your a HP freak, it will also help you really sort out your car. The more you dive into forced induction, the more you will learn. Not only how F/I works, but everything needs to be spot on.

[1000hp]

You keep making this statement as if it's relevant to the race vs the s/c car. What made us identical? Because it was 2 E36 M3's against eachother? We had 2 very different builds, 2 different drivers, different weight, different power, different gearing, different mods, etc. 340/300 s/c car vs 253/228 N/A car doesn't tell the whole story, you shouldn't get stuck on those figures. In the end ET, trap speed, and lap times are what matter. We just chose different ways to achieve ours, mine came out faster in my instances posted.
Nearly identical meaning same model/chassis, close to the same weight (his may have weighed more, since he added a cage and those door panels weight practically nothing).
ETs, lap times, driver skill, etc, mean nothing in a 40mph roll race on a highway somewhere. Nothing. If the difference in power was anywhere near what you're claiming, he would have won. Period. Unless he broke traction or missed a shift, and you won, his car was not making that power. Period. I don't care how good a driver you are. Stomping the pedal on the interstate does not require skill. And unless he completely botches a shift, you are not going to overcome a 90hp advantage on his end. Not in a roll race.
So I'll make the statement one more time for clarity...if you won that race, his car was nowhere near 340hp.


There are plenty of ways to make a s/c car fast. Just don't expect to outrun nearly anyone substantial without cooling mods.
At least not for more than about 15 minutes. Here's where we agree.

[Da Infammus 1]

Nearly identical meaning same model/chassis, close to the same weight (his may have weighed more, since he added a cage and those door panels weight practically nothing).
ETs, lap times, driver skill, etc, mean nothing in a 40mph roll race on a highway somewhere. Nothing. If the difference in power was anywhere near what you're claiming, he would have won. Period. Unless he broke traction or missed a shift, and you won, his car was not making that power. Period. I don't care how good a driver you are. Stomping the pedal on the interstate does not require skill. And unless he completely botches a shift, you are not going to overcome a 90hp advantage on his end. Not in a roll race.
So I'll make the statement one more time for clarity...if you won that race, his car was nowhere near 340hp.



The fact that you think things like trap speeds and driver skill have nothing to do with a roll race and you continue to disregard things that I've mentioned like mustang vs dynojet numbers and gearing not to mention ignoring real life instances with video evidence are a clear indication to me that you either have no clue what you're talking about or you just simply ignoring certain things to appear right. So besides the fact that I've actually seen and lived these races and situations, I'm just gonna agree to disagree and leave it at that so we don't waste any more posts side tracking this thread. If u have anything else to discuss on the matter feel free to PM me.

[abradic]

Well...I have some serious difficulty in believing the Director of Sales who is also the President of the company did not know about a sale they had coming up...I guess I could be wrong but it feels like I was going to be soaked for an extra $1k.

Also...no, no, no....I am NOT going turbo so that is not helping at all. Please stick to SC companies for recommendations.

OP (recent OP), here is a youtube vid of a stage 1 VFE kit with some bolt ons. Mods are listed on vid description. A stage 2 intercooled is only going to be faster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fozBe3JdjjQ

[copcarguyp71]

OP (recent OP), here is a youtube vid of a stage 1 VFE kit with some bolt ons. Mods are listed on vid description. A stage 2 intercooled is only going to be faster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fozBe3JdjjQ

Thanks man...I kinda zoned out for a while there LOL!

[Da Infammus 1]

OP (recent OP), here is a youtube vid of a stage 1 VFE kit with some bolt ons. Mods are listed on vid description. A stage 2 intercooled is only going to be faster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fozBe3JdjjQ

That's not bad at all. RR cams seem to work well with the s/c

[1000hp]

The fact that you think things like trap speeds and driver skill have nothing to do with a roll race and you continue to disregard things that I've mentioned like mustang vs dynojet numbers and gearing not to mention ignoring real life instances with video evidence are a clear indication to me that you either have no clue what you're talking about or you just simply ignoring certain things to appear right. So besides the fact that I've actually seen and lived these races and situations, I'm just gonna agree to disagree and leave it at that so we don't waste any more posts side tracking this thread. If u have anything else to discuss on the matter feel free to PM me.
Are you going to start telling people you beat a 1,000hp car now that you've been arguing with me in this thread? Because that's about what his 340hp claim is worth.
It's relevant, as others have said, because the intent of the thread was to gain insight on the performance of an s/c car. You telling the OP that your bolt-on car is faster than a 340hp s/c car is a fallacy.
I edited the last post to change 'trap speed' to 'ET' since trap speeds are about the only number that would be relevant in highway street racing. But your trap speeds aren't going to be anywhere close to a car that truly has the power you claim that his did.

This really is getting old at this point, so I'm going to stop posting this crap. Feel free to come back after I'm gone and get the last word, if that helps validate your street racing skills.

[rajicase]

Maybe we can simplify this;

Best case for a tapped out NA s52, it is faster and will pull on a stage 1 SC m3.

Best case for a stage 1 SCed m3 is that its slightly faster than a tapped out NA s52 until heat soak.

Sure you can get into charge cooling at which point you will spend as much money as you would on a turbo set up and not be anywhere near as fast. Which isn't inherently a bad thing. Some people much prefer the way a SC car drives and enjoy its power delivery more. Thats cool, not everyone is purely after power.

In MY eyes, the problem with a SCed e36 m3 is whether you are running an entry level non-ICed set up or a much more efficient cooled set up; at any given level there are other options that are either much more reliable and as fast or faster(NA s52 vs. non ic sc) or significantly faster (turbo vs. ICed sc set up)

By time you spend the money on charge cooling and all other supporting mods to make the SC m3 fast you will have spent as much or more than a turbo set up; at which point its still 1) slower, 2) no more reliable.

Different strokes..

[Da Infammus 1]

Are you going to start telling people you beat a 1,000hp car now that you've been arguing with me in this thread? Because that's about what his 340hp claim is worth.
It's relevant, as others have said, because the intent of the thread was to gain insight on the performance of an s/c car. You telling the OP that your bolt-on car is faster than a 340hp s/c car is a fallacy.
I edited the last post to change 'trap speed' to 'ET' since trap speeds are about the only number that would be relevant in highway street racing. But your trap speeds aren't going to be anywhere close to a car that truly has the power you claim that his did.

This really is getting old at this point, so I'm going to stop posting this crap. Feel free to come back after I'm gone and get the last word, if that helps validate your street racing skills.

Lol, ok, further validation that not only do you have not the slightest clue what you're talking about, but you don't know how to follow directions. Stop with the posts of mindless dribble and PM ME if you want to discuss it further, thank you.

[Da Infammus 1]

Maybe we can simplify this;

Best case for a tapped out NA s52, it is faster and will pull on a stage 1 SC m3.

Best case for a stage 1 SCed m3 is that its slightly faster than a tapped out NA s52 until heat soak.

Sure you can get into charge cooling at which point you will spend as much money as you would on a turbo set up and not be anywhere near as fast. Which isn't inherently a bad thing. Some people much prefer the way a SC car drives and enjoy its power delivery more. Thats cool, not everyone is purely after power.

In MY eyes, the problem with a SCed e36 m3 is whether you are running an entry level non-ICed set up or a much more efficient cooled set up; at any given level there are other options that are either much more reliable and as fast or faster(NA s52 vs. non ic sc) or significantly faster (turbo vs. ICed sc set up)

By time you spend the money on charge cooling and all other supporting mods to make the SC m3 fast you will have spent as much or more than a turbo set up; at which point its still 1) slower, 2) no more reliable.

Different strokes..

Completely agree with this. In the end it's different strokes, I was just trying to highlight the fact that it's possible to attain s/c performance while still being N/A , at least a level 1 s/c, which will end up with a lower cost of entry. An after or inter cooled system has better potential, so if going s/c you might as well make that step straight to a level 2.

It also depends what you're gonna use it for, if it's a car that can use the power down low more often, like on an autocross course or tight roads, then the s/c might be fine. If you live somewhere with long open roads or track the car where consistent upper rpm power might be ideal, then maybe full bore N/A or a cooled system might be the route to go.

[olemiss540]

Completely agree with this. In the end it's different strokes, I was just trying to highlight the fact that it's possible to attain s/c performance while still being N/A , at least a level 1 s/c, which will end up with a lower cost of entry. An after or inter cooled system has better potential, so if going s/c you might as well make that step straight to a level 2.

It also depends what you're gonna use it for, if it's a car that can use the power down low more often, like on an autocross course or tight roads, then the s/c might be fine. If you live somewhere with long open roads or track the car where consistent upper rpm power might be ideal, then maybe full bore N/A or a cooled system might be the route to go.

Can you elaborate on costs if that is part of your argument your argument? I don't disagree with most of your recent posts, but the cost of what YOU have spent in the NA mods to get to where you are at is important to your argument. I bought my stage 1 supercharger (when I was still running one) for 2000 on the forums, and instantly had 290 to 300 whp. How much HP does your tapped NA car have and how much did it cost for the build?

Your cars speed is not entirely relevant to your comparison since weight reduction plays a LARGE role and a SC car could easily do the same. Thanks!

[Da Infammus 1]

Can you elaborate on costs if that is part of your argument your argument? I don't disagree with most of your recent posts, but the cost of what YOU have spent in the NA mods to get to where you are at is important to your argument. I bought my stage 1 supercharger (when I was still running one) for 2000 on the forums, and instantly had 290 to 300 whp. How much HP does your tapped NA car have and how much did it cost for the build?

Your cars speed is not entirely relevant to your comparison since weight reduction plays a LARGE role and a SC car could easily do the same. Thanks!

You make some good points sir. I spent close to that amount piecing together parts off the forums and ebay, bartering side work for certain parts and getting some as gifts/trades but I suppose the biggest savings were due to installing everything myself. With labor to pay someone else to install it all, I'd probably have paid more than the 2k you spent. That would've made your route the more cost effective for the power, but with the added extra cost the N/A power would still be more consistent due to suffering a lot less from heat soak. Also my car wasn't tapped out either, I still had a few options to make more power, the car was just so reliable and consistent as is that I didn't see a need for it yet.

Also I haven't done any extreme form of weight reduction, i still have all the stock body panels and even my sunroof still. most race ready cars I see at sebring, pbir, HS, and RA have way more than I did.

[Gordo0208]

I believe used parts is a bad example, too many inconsistancies in pricing.

A more fair assessment would be that of new parts.

For arguments sake let's say everyone installs their own parts.

[Foda420]

This thread has been very entertaining over the last couple days! Having say back and watched the carnage I have a few comments.

1000hp seems to be hung up on the dyno number issue. I'll state right now that I (and I don't think anyone else in here) is arguing that an SC car that really makes 340 will walk an NA car making 50hp less. Given the same chassis and similar weights that outcome is obvious. However, as has been said a few times there are many variables that affect that outcome. The most significant with regard to your issues is the difference in the dynos themselves. They were done on two different dynos on two different days, that alone should make the number comparison less valid, when you throw in the fact that one reads considerably lower than the other the numbers lose all value as a comparative tool.

That leaves us with the real world results that were posted. Those results are affected by differences in the cars including weight, gearing and driver skill. Then you have to consider that the SC car may have been exaggerating with his claimed number or the dyno was old and the car has somehow lost power since then. Either way, the fact is that it was 2nd best in this particular situation.

The SC car has more potential of course and can easily be setup to be much faster. These 2 SC cars with their varying setups just so happened not to be this time. The vids weren't posted to discount SC cars but rather to provide points of reference for similar performance obtained a different way. It's all about preference and what you want from the car and what makes you happy at the end of the day.

All that said, I'm in the midst of a head gasket and will be going with a very similar setup to what DaInfammus had. I have a friend locally with a 95 who will be doing an aftercooled stage 1 setup when he does his HG in the next couple months. I'll take vids and soon we'll have another point of reference.

Carry on :-)

[Foda420]

This thread has been very entertaining over the last couple days! Having sat back and watched the carnage I have a few comments.

1000hp seems to be hung up on the dyno number issue. I'll state right now that I (and I don't think anyone else in here) is arguing that an SC car that really makes 340 will walk an NA car making 50hp less. Given the same chassis and similar weights that outcome is obvious. However, as has been said a few times there are many variables that affect that outcome. The most significant with regard to your issues is the difference in the dynos themselves. They were done on two different dynos on two different days, that alone should make the number comparison less valid, when you throw in the fact that one reads considerably lower than the other the numbers lose all value as a comparative tool.

That leaves us with the real world results that were posted. Those results are affected by differences in the cars including weight, gearing and driver skill. Then you have to consider that the SC car may have been exaggerating with his claimed number or the dyno was old and the car has somehow lost power since then. Either way, the fact is that it was 2nd best in this particular situation.

The SC car has more potential of course and can easily be setup to be much faster. These 2 SC cars with their varying setups just so happened not to be this time. The vids weren't posted to discount SC cars but rather to provide points of reference for similar performance obtained a different way. It's all about preference and what you want from the car and what makes you happy at the end of the day.

All that said, I'm in the midst of a head gasket and will be going with a very similar setup to what DaInfammus had. I have a friend locally with a 95 who will be doing an aftercooled stage 1 setup when he does his HG in the next couple months. I'll take vids and soon we'll have another point of reference.

Carry on :-)

[Gordo0208]

This thread has been very entertaining over the last couple days! Having sat back and watched the carnage I have a few comments.

1000hp seems to be hung up on the dyno number issue. I'll state right now that I (and I don't think anyone else in here) is arguing that an SC car that really makes 340 will walk an NA car making 50hp less. Given the same chassis and similar weights that outcome is obvious. However, as has been said a few times there are many variables that affect that outcome. The most significant with regard to your issues is the difference in the dynos themselves. They were done on two different dynos on two different days, that alone should make the number comparison less valid, when you throw in the fact that one reads considerably lower than the other the numbers lose all value as a comparative tool.

That leaves us with the real world results that were posted. Those results are affected by differences in the cars including weight, gearing and driver skill. Then you have to consider that the SC car may have been exaggerating with his claimed number or the dyno was old and the car has somehow lost power since then. Either way, the fact is that it was 2nd best in this particular situation.

The SC car has more potential of course and can easily be setup to be much faster. These 2 SC cars with their varying setups just so happened not to be this time. The vids weren't posted to discount SC cars but rather to provide points of reference for similar performance obtained a different way. It's all about preference and what you want from the car and what makes you happy at the end of the day.

All that said, I'm in the midst of a head gasket and will be going with a very similar setup to what DaInfammus had. I have a friend locally with a 95 who will be doing an aftercooled stage 1 setup when he does his HG in the next couple months. I'll take vids and soon we'll have another point of reference.

Carry on :-)

You're a great man!!!!! But, you forgot who's arguing man!!

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160308/a1f6844266cd6c171802c7e2da08a17f.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160308/1b87a410c8d5c3a33160a73b0d1db879.jpg

[Da Infammus 1]

You're a great man!!!!! But, you forgot who's arguing man!!



Lol


Foda420 I agree with your assessment and wish you the best of luck with your endeavor. Just be careful of posting a video if you do win, I'd hate for you to be told it didn't actually happen and that your driving means nothing due to 1000 levels of butthurt by a member.

[abradic]

Maybe we can simplify this;

Best case for a tapped out NA s52, it is faster and will pull on a stage 1 SC m3.

Best case for a stage 1 SCed m3 is that its slightly faster than a tapped out NA s52 until heat soak.

Sure you can get into charge cooling at which point you will spend as much money as you would on a turbo set up and not be anywhere near as fast. Which isn't inherently a bad thing. Some people much prefer the way a SC car drives and enjoy its power delivery more. Thats cool, not everyone is purely after power.

In MY eyes, the problem with a SCed e36 m3 is whether you are running an entry level non-ICed set up or a much more efficient cooled set up; at any given level there are other options that are either much more reliable and as fast or faster(NA s52 vs. non ic sc) or significantly faster (turbo vs. ICed sc set up)

By time you spend the money on charge cooling and all other supporting mods to make the SC m3 fast you will have spent as much or more than a turbo set up; at which point its still 1) slower, 2) no more reliable.

Different strokes..

I would imagine fully tapping out an NA car would be a bit more than a stage 1 VFE kit or AA kit when on sale. $4500 for the stage 1 SC kit is probably a bit less than what NA mods would cost, but the thing is you will end up wanting to do all of those NA mods anyway for added power, so really they kind of go hand in hand.

It all depends on what the OP will want out of the car, and he seems to not want a turbo setup. I completely agree that a turbo setup is faster, more torque, but I don't necessarily agree that it's better. For some it is, for others it's not. You can most definitely get a turbo setup for the cost of a SC setup with all the bolts ons. The turbo setup would probably be a little less, even when accounting for pistons/rods. As you mentioned on preferences, I really like the 'build the power as it revs' aspect and for the E36 M3 I prefer it like that. It's like the new Mustang GT 350 which is a high revving motor making power as it revs against the Mustang GT500 which is supercharged, high torque, and faster. I would take the GT350 any day even though it's not faster. If OP isn't looking for turbo type power and speed then a stage 1 SC is a good start, and it will be very quick with that. I would still recommend the AA kit because stage 2 and on is an easy upgrade, and that would be a much faster car at that point....add in bolt-ons and you are looking at a little beast that maintains the linear build up of power, just much more of it.

[1000hp]

Foda420 I agree with your assessment and wish you the best of luck with your endeavor. Just be careful of posting a video if you do win, I'd hate for you to be told it didn't actually happen and that your driving means nothing due to 1000 levels of butthurt by a member.
My butt feels fine. But I'm not the one making silly claims and kill threads about my mad street racing skillz, y0.


Putting all of that aside (though I'm sure those two will continue to flap gums regardless), if you spend anywhere near the same cost on new/used N/A parts as you would on new/used S/C parts, you will be left with a car that is considered a miracle from jesus if it makes 300whp. If you buy the S/C, and it's not much faster when it's cool, and not any faster or is slower than the miracle n/a car once it's heat-soaked, you will still have infinitely more options to improve on that system than you would with a maxed-out n/a S52 (being that there are no other options for the n/a car to increase power other than boost or a swap). That in itself is reason enough, in my humble opinion, to go with the s/c instead of dumping money into n/a mods on a relatively limited powerplant.

If [OP] is somehow 100% sure that he or she will never have any desire to make the car faster than it will be with either a non-intercooled S/C or the full compliment of n/a parts, the n/a stuff might be the safer bet. But let's be honest here...that will never happen. The car will be faster than stock, but it will probably never be "fast enough." If you go the N/A route, once you run out of bolt-ons, you are done. That is until you ultimately decide to boost it, swap it or buy another car.
That said, it doesn't hurt to get the bolt-on stuff done too. A boosted engine is still an engine, and those mods that boost efficiency on a naturally-aspirated engine will do the same to a forced-induction engine, and do a higher degree. Just don't fool yourself into thinking that, if you want it to be fast, you will be satisfied with bolt-ons only.

[pbonsalb]

I am happy this thread did not die off; it has been very entertaining. On the street anything can happen, and the experienced street racers generally are better street racers than the average driver. Others are more likely to shift slowly, be at the wrong rpm in the wrong gear, miss a shift, lose traction off the line, etc. Driver skill really does come into play, even in a straight line, unless you agree to just do a pull in one gear in identically geared cars.

I don't think the OP is saying his car has more power than any car or is faster than any car. He is just winning races against a lot of cars that are supposedly more powerful or supposedly faster.

I don't think it much matters which way you start modding -- forced induction or naturally aspirated. You are right that for some, it does not end with the first round of mods, though for most it probably does. In 2005, I bought a used supercharger instead of NA mods because the supercharger gave more power per dollar based on prices for new/used parts at the time. In a year, I wanted more and did all the NA mods to my supercharged car (headers, track pipe, rear exhaust, Schrick cams). Then I sold it all and went turbo. For some the modding ends, for others it never ends.

[1000hp]

I don't think it much matters which way you start modding -- forced induction or naturally aspirated. You are right that for some, it does not end with the first round of mods, though for most it probably does. In 2005, I bought a used supercharger instead of NA mods because the supercharger gave more power per dollar based on prices for new/used parts at the time. In a year, I wanted more and did all the NA mods to my supercharged car (headers, track pipe, rear exhaust, Schrick cams). Then I sold it all and went turbo. For some the modding ends, for others it never ends.
I started off with all of the bolt-ons. I did most of them at once (stage-whateverthefk package with m50, cams, injectors, etc) and it felt great for about six months, but never really gave me a fast car boner like some people think it will. I think if you want an n/a e36 to be "fast" in a straight line, you're going to have to make it weigh next to nothing. At least until you bite the bullet and boost the damned thing.

Then when you supercharge it, the turbo guys will tell you that you're wasting your time and you need to go turbo. Then when you go turbo, you'll replace the turbo every nine months until you have so much power that you can't get traction below 95mph. Such is the downward spiral of horsepower dependency.
We all end up in the FI or engine conversion forum eventually.

[Gordo0208]

I have searched a ton but can't find many thorough reviews. I am very close to pulling trigger on the VF kit but want to hear other people's input and thoughts. TIA!

Here's a short list:
http://vf-engineering.com/m3-1995-1999/
VF350 Supercharger $4500


Power: 350 hp / 295 ft/lbs
6.0 PSI
Vortech V3 Si-Trim supercharger
ECU software flash
--------------------------------------------------------------
https://store.vacmotorsports.com/vac---e36-m3-stage-5-performance-kit-p2621.aspx
VAC - E36 M3 "Stage 5" Performance Kit (w/header) $4,184.95
Kit Includes:

aFe E36 Euro Style Cold Air Intake w/ Pro 5R Filter
Bosch 3.5" Mass Air Flow Sensor

OBDI: 540i, Good/Used
OBDII: Porsche 993, New (#0 280 217 809, aka 911 turbo)


VAC "IP Dominator" High Performance Camshaft Set
VAC 24lb Injectors (6)
VAC Limited Travel VANOS Shim
VAC High Performance Valve Train
VAC Dual-Springs
VAC Retainers
VAC Valve Spring Seats
Optional to add E36 6-Cylinder "Shortie" Exhaust Headers (Note: Not OBD2/Emissions compliant, deletes air-pump inlet)

Custom VAC Performance Software: tuned to the components in our kit- *Note: that other airflow mods may require this tune to be slightly tweaked*

Please take into consideration that this isn't a tapped out setup. You can still M50 manifold swap. You can go bigger with a bigger throttle body. You can UD Pullies. You can add a clutch and flywheel (which you'll need anyway supercharged or not). You can add a mid pipe and cat back. You can add an FDM. You can even then add.... OMG a supercharger =O. Or you can do it in the reverse order and go supercharger first and then add all of these components! Keep in mind the additional cost of a supercharger's stage 2 add on.
No one in here is saying a supercharger IS or isn't better than going with full race cams, we're just saying you can be faster than a stage 1 supercharger and stay NA while maintaining the opportunity to go supercharged afterwards if you so desire. Also, that stage 1 superchargers tend to have a heat soaking issue which can kill your fun because it is a difference you will be able to notice. For example, you race your friend 3 times in a row. First time you beat him by a car, then half a car, by third time you might be dead even. If you're willing to pull the trigger on a VF kit right now, wait, save a little more and go stage 2 right away.
Compare this to drag racing vs auto cross. The NA setup being auto cross where you race for an extended period of time (several laps) and an UNCOOLED supercharger setup being drag racing where you have a run and then wait in line for everyone else to go before you get a second turn. Ones constant and the other one is a LITTLE inconsistent with the cooling but BOTH are fun.

I will say though, depending on how comfortable you are working on your engine, the supercharger install might be easier as you don't have to deal with timing so if that's the case, supercharger all day even if it's stage 1.






My butt feels fine. But I'm not the one making silly claims and kill threads about my mad street racing skillz, y0.


Putting all of that aside (though I'm sure those two will continue to flap gums regardless), if you spend anywhere near the same cost on new/used N/A parts as you would on new/used S/C parts, you will be left with a car that is considered a miracle from jesus if it makes 300whp. If you buy the S/C, and it's not much faster when it's cool, and not any faster or is slower than the miracle n/a car once it's heat-soaked, you will still have infinitely more options to improve on that system than you would with a maxed-out n/a S52 (being that there are no other options for the n/a car to increase power other than boost or a swap). That in itself is reason enough, in my humble opinion, to go with the s/c instead of dumping money into n/a mods on a relatively limited powerplant.

If [OP] is somehow 100% sure that he or she will never have any desire to make the car faster than it will be with either a non-intercooled S/C or the full compliment of n/a parts, the n/a stuff might be the safer bet. But let's be honest here...that will never happen. The car will be faster than stock, but it will probably never be "fast enough." If you go the N/A route, once you run out of bolt-ons, you are done. That is until you ultimately decide to boost it, swap it or buy another car.
That said, it doesn't hurt to get the bolt-on stuff done too. A boosted engine is still an engine, and those mods that boost efficiency on a naturally-aspirated engine will do the same to a forced-induction engine, and do a higher degree. Just don't fool yourself into thinking that, if you want it to be fast, you will be satisfied with bolt-ons only.

skillz, y0? Really? Wow.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/teaching-kids-to-spell-for-dummies-tracey-wood/1100578790/2673403122211?st=PLA&sid=BNB_DRS_Marketplace+Shopping+Books_00000000&2sid=Google_&sourceId=PLGoP1755&k_clickid=3x1755

No one is making silly claims, and what's been said has been substantiated. The Kill Stories section was added for a reason by the people who created this forum, having something against that section must mean you have something against the creators of this forum... What are you doing here then? I'm sure any Moderator will be more than willing to let you go.
You were told various comments ago to let it go, it's a forum dude, LET IT GO.

[1000hp]

No one is making silly claims, and what's been said has been substantiated. The Kill Stories section was added for a reason by the people who created this forum, having something against that section must mean you have something against the creators of this forum... What are you doing here then? I'm sure any Moderator will be more than willing to let you go.
You were told various comments ago to let it go, it's a forum dude, LET IT GO.


skillz, y0? Really? Wow.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/teac...clickid=3x1755 (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/teaching-kids-to-spell-for-dummies-tracey-wood/1100578790/2673403122211?st=PLA&sid=BNB_DRS_Marketplace+Shopping+Books_00000000&2sid=Google_&sourceId=PLGoP1755&k_clickid=3x1755)
Well...


Mad hate.

My bad

Do you.
I thought maybe if I used your cool lingo you'd let me in your club. I guess I was wrong. Sad face.

I've been here since long before you sold your Civic and bought an e30. I think we'll all be alright.

If you have something to add to or dispute my last comments (the ones that pertain to the actual topic) I'd love to hear them. Otherwise there are better places for you to troll.

[Yakob]

you'll replace the turbo every nine months until you have so much power that you can't get traction below 95mph. Such is the downward spiral of horsepower dependency.
We all end up in the FI or engine conversion forum eventually.

Aint that the truth..
I got rid of my STi a while back when I wanted to just focus on my bikes and stop buying new parts every time something shinny and fast came around. But I have more fun going fast in cars so now I have an M3... And I'm also rebuilding my old GT35r from the STi for.... said M3. Boost rules the world.

[1000hp]

Aint that the truth..
I got rid of my STi a while back when I wanted to just focus on my bikes and stop buying new parts every time something shinny and fast came around. But I have more fun going fast in cars so now I have an M3... And I'm also rebuilding my old GT35r from the STi for.... said M3. Boost rules the world.
I sold my STi when I kept getting ridiculous speeding tickets. I loved that car.

[Gordo0208]

Well...

I thought maybe if I used your cool lingo you'd let me in your club. I guess I was wrong. Sad face.

I've been here since long before you sold your Civic and bought an e30. I think we'll all be alright.

If you have something to add to or dispute my last comments (the ones that pertain to the actual topic) I'd love to hear them. Otherwise there are better places for you to troll.

Funny how all those were properly spelled.. Mad Hate. My bad. Do you. Skillz, y0 not so much.

Nothing to say about the Kill Stories section or the people who created, huh? Of course not.

Length of time as a forum member doesn't mean much, you could have 12,000 posts of pure idiocracy as suggests the thread you started asking why your control arm bushing fail rapidly... Anti-seize is the most suitable lubricant I'm sure....

[1000hp]

Nothing to say about the Kill Stories section or the people who created, huh? Of course not
They created the kills section to cordon off the people who feel the need to brag about risking innocent people's lives on the street for bragging rights and/or cash, so that this kind of crap didn't spill over into the other parts of the forum.

How much time did you spend searching through my old posts to form your rebuttal? Because it is that kind of thing, not your "tenure" here, which suggests that you migrated over from some crap Honda board, or other smack-talking teenager internet cess pool, with your cute memes. Let's give it a rest, shall we?

[Gordo0208]

They created the kills section to cordon off the people who feel the need to brag about risking innocent people's lives on the street for bragging rights and/or cash, so that this kind of crap didn't spill over into the other parts of the forum.

How much time did you spend searching through my old posts to form your rebuttal? Because it is that kind of thing, not your "tenure" here, which suggests that you migrated over from some crap Honda board, or other smack-talking teenager internet cess pool, with your cute memes. Let's give it a rest, shall we?

So you've never told a friend you beat a car in a race? Of course not, that would imply you know what you're doing. You lube cylinder walls with anti-seize as well right?

About 35 seconds, as I said, 12,000 posts of idiocracy. It's not about how long you have to search for but rather OMG! I HAVE SO MANY TO CHOOSE FROM.

We're enthusiasts here what exactly about Honda is crap? Some of the people who drive them? Every community has one, even the prestigious German following as you are a perfect example of this.

What's wrong with my memes? Are you mad I can be funnier? I can't apologize for that but I can put some anti-seize on my jokes so they hurt less.

On 3/7 Da Infammus 1 made the first attempt to be civil by requesting anything not part of the original post be directed to his inbox and you immediately retaliated and I'm the only childish one here? That was your one opportunity to be an adult, you didn't take it. Now I'm just in it for pure entertainment.

Was that slippery enough for you or should I switch from CRC to 3M lubricants?

[1000hp]

anti-seize jokes
You are hilarious, el Gordo. And you were able to search all 12,000 of my 1,033 posts in just 35 seconds. Perhaps one day they will promote you to the fryer.

In the mean time, I think I've wasted more than enough time bickering with a child. Feel free to chalk this up as a "kill" when you head back to the ek civic off topic forum.

[Gordo0208]

You are hilarious, el Gordo. And you were able to search all 12,000 of my 1,033 posts in just 35 seconds. Perhaps one day they will promote you to the fryer.

In the mean time, I think I've wasted more than enough time bickering with a child. Feel free to chalk this up as a "kill" when you head back to the ek civic off topic forum.

Oooh now we're onto racist jokes!? Perfect indicator you have lost this battle since that's what you resort to. Looks like I hit the nail on it's head with the GWB meme, man I'm good!

I'm glad you've finally decided to wise up! Please give your cousin Trump my salutations!

Btw, I dislike EK's, EF's all day. Nice to know you know you're chassis codes! Hmmm... Looks like we're both cess pool children ;-)

[1000hp]

Oooh now we're onto racist jokes!? Perfect indicator you have lost this battle since that's what you resort to. Looks like I hit the nail on it's head with the GWB meme, man I'm good!

Put your race card away, son. I'm a minority, too. Nothing racial about my comment. Save that BS for your facebook page.

[Gordo0208]

Put your race card away, son. I'm a minority, too. Nothing racial about my comment. Save that BS for your facebook page.

I thought you were done bickering father? ;-)

[Da Infammus 1]

My butt feels fine. But I'm not the one making silly claims and kill threads about my mad street racing skillz, y0.




Seriously dude? No wonder there's 1000 levels of butthurt, you're using anti-seize LMAO! You need to stop making generalizations when clearly your judgment hasn't proven to steer you in the right direction. No one is making silly claims. If so, it would be you since you continue to spew idiotic comments with nothing to substantiate your own claims except for comments that would equate to a child throwing a tantrum, resorting to racial comments and misspelled rhetoric. Just because others post something you personally don't believe to be true, even in the face of video evidence, doesn't mean it's fictitious. I have no reason to lie, I just wanted to contribute my personal experience. This isn't even my only N/A s52 build, or engine/car build. It's not a "miracle, tapped out N/A car", it's simply well thought out and put together which I have already replicated in other cars. And if I can do it, others can attain the success I had with my blue N/A car. Different strokes for different folks. 340whp vs 253whp is only one factor, and those of us that actually race know for a fact that things such as driver skill, mustang vs dynojet etc #'s, trap/ET depending on the situation, weight, gearing, etc are factors in a roll race or any other race. And if you were paying attention instead of berating me, you'd have noticed I even commented that heat soak was a factor and I believed the car had lost power. I've had civil conversation with several other members about the instance, for some reason you can't do the same. Get over yourself and chill out dude, you sound like the same politicians swearing global warming isn't real while staring at a gaping hole in the ozone layer and that racism in this country is dead. Maybe if you listen or become inquisitive instead of immediately trying to disprove someone on a forum, you might actually learn something.

As for street racing, yeah it happens and when done responsibly in a safe environment can be both fun and profitable. There are people right now making a very good living off of it on the Discovery channel, you should check it out sometime. Besides, sanctioned racing had to start somewhere. Guess where that was? Oh yeah, in the streets. Downing the members in the Kills Section just by generalizing that they're all useless ricers is like saying all Muslims plan to commit violent crimes.

Just do us all a favor. If you don't have anything else substantial to add, get like Elsa and LET IT GO.

[Butters Stoch]

Who's side are the outsiders supposed to be on ?

[Da Infammus 1]

Who's side are the outsiders supposed to be on ?

You can be on whatever side you want as long as you get Leen to finish that manifold so I can get mine before the spring lol.

[olemiss540]

VF Advertises: +103 hp gain
VAC Advertises: +55 hp gain

HP per dollar (based on advertisements used on your links)
103/4500 = .022888 hp per dollar
55/4200 = .0130 hp per dollar

I guess we are all in agreement then!

Supercharger is a cost effective way to bolt on 100 hp for minimal labor and can be modified for increased power down the road while suffering from heatsoak on hot days after being run for extended periods. Modifed units with aftercoolers can make +200 hp from stock and effectively handle heatsoak for an additional cost.

VAC Stage 5 kit is one way to bolt on +55 hp assuming you have the tools and ability to install cams that can produce reliable and surprisingly quick power that is well suited for the e36 platform. Less leaks, no heatsoak, no headgasket concerns, install and drive. Can also bump power with ADDITIONAL modifications up to a ceiling of approximately 290whp with the purchase of exhaust/headers/ltw pulleys/etc etc etc.

Can we all just agree to this summation and close this thread out? Do I have a second in favor?



Here's a short list:
http://vf-engineering.com/m3-1995-1999/
VF350 Supercharger $4500




Power: 350 hp / 295 ft/lbs
6.0 PSI
Vortech V3 Si-Trim supercharger
ECU software flash
--------------------------------------------------------------
https://store.vacmotorsports.com/vac---e36-m3-stage-5-performance-kit-p2621.aspx
VAC - E36 M3 "Stage 5" Performance Kit (w/header) $4,184.95
Kit Includes:

aFe E36 Euro Style Cold Air Intake w/ Pro 5R Filter
Bosch 3.5" Mass Air Flow Sensor

OBDI: 540i, Good/Used
OBDII: Porsche 993, New (#0 280 217 809, aka 911 turbo)


VAC "IP Dominator" High Performance Camshaft Set
VAC 24lb Injectors (6)
VAC Limited Travel VANOS Shim
VAC High Performance Valve Train
VAC Dual-Springs
VAC Retainers
VAC Valve Spring Seats
Optional to add E36 6-Cylinder "Shortie" Exhaust Headers (Note: Not OBD2/Emissions compliant, deletes air-pump inlet)

Custom VAC Performance Software: tuned to the components in our kit- *Note: that other airflow mods may require this tune to be slightly tweaked*

Please take into consideration that this isn't a tapped out setup. You can still M50 manifold swap. You can go bigger with a bigger throttle body. You can UD Pullies. You can add a clutch and flywheel (which you'll need anyway supercharged or not). You can add a mid pipe and cat back. You can add an FDM. You can even then add.... OMG a supercharger =O. Or you can do it in the reverse order and go supercharger first and then add all of these components! Keep in mind the additional cost of a supercharger's stage 2 add on.
No one in here is saying a supercharger IS or isn't better than going with full race cams, we're just saying you can be faster than a stage 1 supercharger and stay NA while maintaining the opportunity to go supercharged afterwards if you so desire. Also, that stage 1 superchargers tend to have a heat soaking issue which can kill your fun because it is a difference you will be able to notice. For example, you race your friend 3 times in a row. First time you beat him by a car, then half a car, by third time you might be dead even. If you're willing to pull the trigger on a VF kit right now, wait, save a little more and go stage 2 right away.
Compare this to drag racing vs auto cross. The NA setup being auto cross where you race for an extended period of time (several laps) and an UNCOOLED supercharger setup being drag racing where you have a run and then wait in line for everyone else to go before you get a second turn. Ones constant and the other one is a LITTLE inconsistent with the cooling but BOTH are fun.

I will say though, depending on how comfortable you are working on your engine, the supercharger install might be easier as you don't have to deal with timing so if that's the case, supercharger all day even if it's stage 1.







skillz, y0? Really? Wow.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/teaching-kids-to-spell-for-dummies-tracey-wood/1100578790/2673403122211?st=PLA&sid=BNB_DRS_Marketplace+Shopping+Books_00000000&2sid=Google_&sourceId=PLGoP1755&k_clickid=3x1755

No one is making silly claims, and what's been said has been substantiated. The Kill Stories section was added for a reason by the people who created this forum, having something against that section must mean you have something against the creators of this forum... What are you doing here then? I'm sure any Moderator will be more than willing to let you go.
You were told various comments ago to let it go, it's a forum dude, LET IT GO.

[DamnYank]

I think a lot of it is subjective argument and that its not uncommon for someone to lobby the path they chose / spend a lot of time and money on because admitting otherwise means admitting money was poorly spent. I had a VF stg1, not worth the money. Sure didn't feel worth the money for the kit (purchased new). Without aftercooling, a SC is a waste of $ (IMO) - and aftercooling adds significant costs to any SC kit (again, if sticking to 'bought new' pricing).

[Gordo0208]

VF Advertises: +103 hp gain
VAC Advertises: +55 hp gain

HP per dollar (based on advertisements used on your links)
103/4500 = .022888 hp per dollar
55/4200 = .0130 hp per dollar

I guess we are all in agreement then!

Supercharger is a cost effective way to bolt on 100 hp for minimal labor and can be modified for increased power down the road while suffering from heatsoak on hot days after being run for extended periods. Modifed units with aftercoolers can make +200 hp from stock and effectively handle heatsoak for an additional cost.

VAC Stage 5 kit is one way to bolt on +55 hp assuming you have the tools and ability to install cams that can produce reliable and surprisingly quick power that is well suited for the e36 platform. Less leaks, no heatsoak, no headgasket concerns, install and drive. Can also bump power with ADDITIONAL modifications up to a ceiling of approximately 290whp with the purchase of exhaust/headers/ltw pulleys/etc etc etc.

Can we all just agree to this summation and close this thread out? Do I have a second in favor?

You should redo your numbers, VF advertises 105hp increase, NOT wheel horsepower.

VAC advertises 55 WHEEL HORSEPOWER.

See the difference?

Aside from this, these numbers advertised numbers are subjective and no one should get hung up on them. A much better indicator is asking various people with stage 1 superchargers and no other mods if $4500 is worth it.

Then ask people with full race cams if it's worth it.

Seems more and more people with stage 1 superchargers keep saying it isn't worth $4500.

And please bear in mind when I made that comment I didn't take a side, I included prices for both, pros and cons, that seemed like a pretty neutral response to me.

Lastly, the OP posted this 4 YEARS AGO. What are ANY of us still doing here lol

[Gordo0208]

Also remember the VAC kit includes headers for the price. Without headers it's $3,7xx.00

[pbonsalb]

You can be on whatever side you want as long as you get Leen to finish that manifold so I can get mine before the spring lol.

My turbo car would get beat by any NA car right now. I am waiting, too.

[olemiss540]

Got it, so the manufacturer listed claims are unreliable, so we should go based on the feelings of the people that agree with your claim. Sounds like a much cleaner and more precise measure of instrumentation.

I was one of the various people you refer to as having "no other mods" but a stage 1 supercharger. My car is now NA and completely stock for reliability purposes (because racecar). I will be swapping a 3500 dollar s54 into my car once funds allow, because a $4500 bolt-on kit from VAC for +55 hp seems like a waste of money considering you are still at only 270 whp, have oil starvation issues, a single vanos, single throttle body, 7000 rpm redline, etc etc. I am glad that you are enjoying your FBO s52 but lets quit arguing just to argue and agree on a basic premise (or is agreeing out of the question):

Supercharger is a cost effective way to bolt on 100 hp for minimal labor and can be modified for increased power down the road while suffering from heatsoak on hot days after being run for extended periods. Modifed units with aftercoolers can make +200 hp from stock and effectively handle heatsoak for an additional cost.

VAC Stage 5 kit is one way to bolt on +55 hp assuming you have the tools and ability to install cams that can produce reliable and surprisingly quick power that is well suited for the e36 platform. Less leaks, no heatsoak, no headgasket concerns, install and drive. Can also bump power with ADDITIONAL modifications up to a ceiling of approximately 290whp with the purchase of exhaust/headers/ltw pulleys/etc etc etc.

Thanks in advance for your response!


You should redo your numbers, VF advertises 105hp increase, NOT wheel horsepower.

VAC advertises 55 WHEEL HORSEPOWER.

See the difference?

Aside from this, these numbers advertised numbers are subjective and no one should get hung up on them. A much better indicator is asking various people with stage 1 superchargers and no other mods if $4500 is worth it.

Then ask people with full race cams if it's worth it.

Seems more and more people with stage 1 superchargers keep saying it isn't worth $4500.

And please bear in mind when I made that comment I didn't take a side, I included prices for both, pros and cons, that seemed like a pretty neutral response to me.

Lastly, the OP posted this 4 YEARS AGO. What are ANY of us still doing here lol

[Gordo0208]

Got it, so the manufacturer listed claims are unreliable, so we should go based on the feelings of the people that agree with your claim. Sounds like a much cleaner and more precise measure of instrumentation.

I was one of the various people you refer to as having "no other mods" but a stage 1 supercharger. My car is now NA and completely stock for reliability purposes (because racecar). I will be swapping a 3500 dollar s54 into my car once funds allow, because a $4500 bolt-on kit from VAC for +55 hp seems like a waste of money considering you are still at only 270 whp, have oil starvation issues, a single vanos, single throttle body, 7000 rpm redline, etc etc. I am glad that you are enjoying your FBO s52 but lets quit arguing just to argue and agree on a basic premise (or is agreeing out of the question):

Supercharger is a cost effective way to bolt on 100 hp for minimal labor and can be modified for increased power down the road while suffering from heatsoak on hot days after being run for extended periods. Modifed units with aftercoolers can make +200 hp from stock and effectively handle heatsoak for an additional cost.

VAC Stage 5 kit is one way to bolt on +55 hp assuming you have the tools and ability to install cams that can produce reliable and surprisingly quick power that is well suited for the e36 platform. Less leaks, no heatsoak, no headgasket concerns, install and drive. Can also bump power with ADDITIONAL modifications up to a ceiling of approximately 290whp with the purchase of exhaust/headers/ltw pulleys/etc etc etc.

Thanks in advance for your response!

Your entire first sentence is negative argument, are you serious? At what point did I say we all have to go with what I want? If that were case then I would've never posted a comparison between BOTH setups.
YOU are literally arguing just to argue and you're making yourself sound very stupid by doing so when the argument of what is better has been dead for about a day now.
As a matter of fact the fact that your first post was criticizing my post goes against
"but lets quit arguing just to argue and agree on a basic premise" which is what we said THREE DAYS AGO and yet you're still criticizing. I'm not sure how that is avoiding an argument.
Read this thread over again and let me know at what point I said
FBO's is better, it's what you have got to go with?
Oh wait, I never did, exactly.
I would've congratulated you on that S54 swap had you not been into measuring dicks.

[pbonsalb]

I will be swapping a 3500 dollar s54 into my car once funds allow
[/QUOTE]

This is a good option now that all the details have been figured out and used S54 are getting cheaper. TRM recently got close to 400 rwhp and 300 lbs rwtq out of an S54 with cams, on pump gas, SAE Dynojet.

[abradic]

VF Advertises: +103 hp gain
VAC Advertises: +55 hp gain

HP per dollar (based on advertisements used on your links)
103/4500 = .022888 hp per dollar
55/4200 = .0130 hp per dollar

I guess we are all in agreement then!

Supercharger is a cost effective way to bolt on 100 hp for minimal labor and can be modified for increased power down the road while suffering from heatsoak on hot days after being run for extended periods. Modifed units with aftercoolers can make +200 hp from stock and effectively handle heatsoak for an additional cost.

VAC Stage 5 kit is one way to bolt on +55 hp assuming you have the tools and ability to install cams that can produce reliable and surprisingly quick power that is well suited for the e36 platform. Less leaks, no heatsoak, no headgasket concerns, install and drive. Can also bump power with ADDITIONAL modifications up to a ceiling of approximately 290whp with the purchase of exhaust/headers/ltw pulleys/etc etc etc.

Can we all just agree to this summation and close this thread out? Do I have a second in favor?

Very reasonable post here. Any mod setup is perfect for whatever that particular owner wants, and really sometimes it's not about the hp/$ but rather about what you want out of your car. I have seen posts where people ask about maxing out NA with responses not to waste their time, just supercharge it for cheaper power. Based on their experiences NA was a waste and supercharging was better. Then you have people tell others don't supercharge it, it's a waste of money and go straight to turbo. Again you have many who say supercharging was a waste of time. Then you'll have those who say don't waste your money on a turbo kit, go custom because you'll want more power. Then in this thread some are arguing supercharging being a waste and that NA is better. So it's all a big circle jerk in many respects. Find out what YOU want, what goals you want, and then enjoy the car once it's properly setup. There is no perfect or best setup for everyone, it's for what you want, like, and expect. Some go one direction and realize it was a waste and switch to another. Others know what they want and end up very happy with what they did. Figure it out, do it, and go from there. In my opinion, if you want an NA type experience but with a whole lot more power and kick in the pants torque then save up for a stage 2 SC. If you want massive power and torque, just go turbo. If you want NA only, then obviously go bolt-ons. Don't just look at numbers, look at what you want your car to be like.

[olemiss540]

Very reasonable post here. Any mod setup is perfect for whatever that particular owner wants, and really sometimes it's not about the hp/$ but rather about what you want out of your car. I have seen posts where people ask about maxing out NA with responses not to waste their time, just supercharge it for cheaper power. Based on their experiences NA was a waste and supercharging was better. Then you have people tell others don't supercharge it, it's a waste of money and go straight to turbo. Again you have many who say supercharging was a waste of time. Then you'll have those who say don't waste your money on a turbo kit, go custom because you'll want more power. Then in this thread some are arguing supercharging being a waste and that NA is better. So it's all a big circle jerk in many respects. Find out what YOU want, what goals you want, and then enjoy the car once it's properly setup. There is no perfect or best setup for everyone, it's for what you want, like, and expect. Some go one direction and realize it was a waste and switch to another. Others know what they want and end up very happy with what they did. Figure it out, do it, and go from there. In my opinion, if you want an NA type experience but with a whole lot more power and kick in the pants torque then save up for a stage 2 SC. If you want massive power and torque, just go turbo. If you want NA only, then obviously go bolt-ons. Don't just look at numbers, look at what you want your car to be like.

Amen brother! We are all here bringing our past experiences to the table so others can benifit.

I have run the gamut, and am back to stock, not due to power but it suits track driving perfectly. The only reason I haven't chased the rabbit down the NA route is the s54 swap is a no brainer for the money once you sell your stock powertrain. 330 hp for 2500 bucks? Yea baby!

If this was for a fun weekend car, no doubt the stage 2+ supercharger was PLENTY of power and would have kept me happy for a long time! It was sincerely SCARY fast on power at the track that I didnt even know how to manage the power levels to be honest....