HG Failure - 87mm & Raceware 11mm

[badluckM3]

Quick rundown on motor:
- 87mm CP, Eagle rods
- .070 MLS
- 11mm Raceware headstuds w/ Timecerts

Have had over-pressurization of cooling system since August. Been monitoring coolant pressure on street and would not exceed 25psi.
But the other we put it on the dyno, and went up to 45psi, and spewing coolants out the cap.

So...time to tear apart. No surprise, appears to be leaking between each cylinder.

I removed each headstud, and timecerts all stayed in their place, so that's good thing. Now not so good thing is that some of the headstuds are slightly bent.
I noticed when removing them, that the ratchet didn't remain straight up down, rather was wobbling when I was unscrewing them...:confused

I was planning on reusing the Raceware's and just oring the block with stock Erling HG. Guess I'll be using the s54 arp2000 201-4303. Torque specs are 105ft/lb, hope the timecerts hold! And happened to just now find a vendor on ebay selling for $107 :alright

Pics of said damage:
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q123/benbimmer/IMG_2672.jpg
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q123/benbimmer/IMG_2673.jpg
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q123/benbimmer/IMG_2674.jpg
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q123/benbimmer/IMG_2676.jpg
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q123/benbimmer/IMG_2677.jpg
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q123/benbimmer/IMG_2681.jpg
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q123/benbimmer/IMG_2683.jpg
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q123/benbimmer/IMG_2695.jpg
Straight?
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q123/benbimmer/IMG_2703.jpg
NO!
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q123/benbimmer/IMG_2704.jpg

[milKt]

Wonder the cause of bending?

During torque process or removal? hrrrm

[badluckM3]

I'm thinking the installation of the timecerts by the machine shop were not true 90* perpendicular to block. With the studs installed, it was a bitch to get the HG on last time, as if the timecerts were off a small degree when inserted.

[Colby Colbs]

That lil bit is a big oops...
Also, be careful what you buy off EbAY

[milKt]

I'm thinking the installation of the timecerts by the machine shop were not true 90* perpendicular to block. With the studs installed, it was a bitch to get the HG on last time, as if the timecerts were off a small degree when inserted.

That would explain it.
Are you sure your wooden table reference is straight? :) I kid, slightly
or you can see the fastener wobbling around

[BadBoostedBmwM3]

Sorry to hear this.

I can't believe those arp 2000s are $105. I guess the market is far less. Every supercharger kit a base turbo kit uses stock studs.
I was going to recommend those.


Anyways, good luck with reinstallation. I remember seeing your coolant pressure thread. Why do you think the HG finally gave in on the dyno and not the street?

[PEI330Ci]

I'm thinking the installation of the timecerts by the machine shop were not true 90* perpendicular to block. With the studs installed, it was a bitch to get the HG on last time, as if the timecerts were off a small degree when inserted.

This is a strong likelyhood, and possibly the route cause of the failure.

I would be very hesitant about installing another set of studs, either from ARP or Raceware, without having the block checked out.

Personally, I'd be looking at replacing the block.....

[badluckM3]

Why do you think the HG finally gave in on the dyno and not the street?
Probably the load generated by the dyno dynamics, as opposed to me pussyfooting on the street because I knew something wasn't right. Still put down 496whp on the last runs, but not so pretty plots.


This is a strong likelyhood, and possibly the route cause of the failure.

I would be very hesitant about installing another set of studs, either from ARP or Raceware, without having the block checked out.

Personally, I'd be looking at replacing the block.....
I agree, and that was going to be the plan at first. But rather than diving in and rebuilding another motor, I decided to just do the gasket.
Will do some figure8's in the block with stock HG/stainless wire, and see if these timecerts will handle the torque sequence of these 11mm arp2000s.

It's just a HG job and my time at this point. Not having to spend too much money to get it back up. If the HG lets loose again, will have to swap my internals to a new block.

Any other suggestions for .041" stainless wire? http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SCE-31542/

[rt turbo]

Probably the load generated by the dyno dynamics, as opposed to me pussyfooting on the street because I knew something wasn't right. Still put down 496whp on the last runs, but not so pretty plots.


I agree, and that was going to be the plan at first. But rather than diving in and rebuilding another motor, I decided to just do the gasket.
Will do some figure8's in the block with stock HG/stainless wire, and see if these timecerts will handle the torque sequence of these 11mm arp2000s.

It's just a HG job and my time at this point. Not having to spend too much money to get it back up. If the HG lets loose again, will have to swap my internals to a new block.

Any other suggestions for .041" stainless wire? http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SCE-31542/
Didn't you have at least a .030 piston over deck protrusion? Do you mind putting one in TDC and taking a pic now that the head is off? Mine are about in that neighborhood as well, and all less than .035 over deck, but still, Im almost thinking of using a .080 mls. Are you worried that the stock gasket will crush more leaving less room? Then again, I think the SS oring will allow less gasket crush.

Ive heard that you can get a stock style gasket in thicker than .070, but cant find it.

[badluckM3]

Here's the theead with pics from when I put the motor together.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1073065

[Captain Bondo]

This is a strong likelyhood, and possibly the route cause of the failure.

I would be very hesitant about installing another set of studs, either from ARP or Raceware, without having the block checked out.

Personally, I'd be looking at replacing the block.....

Yeah, I think that when the head is torqued down it's basically creating the clamp load by bending the stud instead of stretching it. That's not going to be reliable regardless of what studs are used.

[turnerNCM3]

Pull the HG off, get a straight edge and flashlight and some feeler gauges and check across the block right across the cylinder spaces. Got to have a dead level deck for the S52 and MLs, especilly for 87mm overbore.

[rt turbo]

Here's the theead with pics from when I put the motor together.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1073065
yeah, mine are exactly like yours. I think I measured one to be about .033 above deck (but hard to tell with shiming to stop the piston from rocking and get an accurate measure). I remember multiplex's issue, his was due to s50 pistons on s52 crank and i think they stuck out .060+ or something crazy. I think ours will be fine, but Id like to spark a discussion on the amount of crush the stock HG will see versus mls. Wont the stock HG crush more?

I wonder if anyone has anyone ever clayed it with the head on?

[Colby Colbs]

BavSol is your best bet as far as I know, they have clayed my motors with various thickness MLS gaskets. They are busy guys but always happy to answer questions. I don't know if Mike R has clayed any, we have never spoken about how he builds his motors. I'd guess that he has done a crap ton of gaskets thought the years on new builds or N/A to turbo conversions. The folks at Maximum PSI are extremely helpful as well.

[badluckM3]

Orings have begun. Don/dcvee/Wizard of PA loaned me the trusty ISKY, and ...my hands are killing me, that #6 is a true bitch!!!

Done for the night, should have head back on tomorrow and take my time with the torque sequence. Going with a .012" protrusion.

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q123/benbimmer/IMG_0052.jpg
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q123/benbimmer/IMG_0050.jpg
Got this SCE .041 stainless kit from summit:
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q123/benbimmer/IMG_0044.jpg
And hoping these hold it down:
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q123/benbimmer/IMG_0045.jpg

[Hova]

:buttrock

[futureroadracer]

Good stuff, Ben.

[milKt]

Whew ... 87mm and o-rings

Could make for a srs bsns combination.

[GG///M3]

Good work dude

So stainless instead of copper... Hrmmmi

[97mreaper]

Good choice on stainless, thats what the wizard used in my motor!

[milKt]

Good choice on stainless, thats what the wizard used in my motor!

Did you choose that or did Don?

[BavarianLove]

I was going to get a hold of Don for this very reason. So your using a .070 mls, ss firing rings and installing dry?

[BadBoostedBmwM3]

So, this is the infamous "figure 8" style?

[badluckM3]

I was going to get a hold of Don for this very reason. So your using a .070 mls, ss firing rings and installing dry?

No

Stock Erling HG, SS wire, and Indian Curry Sauze all over.

[Impulsed7]

Gonna need to help me after my turbo motor pops on the brown car.

Should be shortly after the new turbo gets here next week.

[BavarianLove]

No

Stock Erling HG, SS wire, and Indian Curry Sauze all over.

Proven. Did Don recommend stainless?

[badluckM3]

Proven. Did Don recommend stainless?

I just did it based on reading other's threads. Not sure what Don recommends, kind of had my mind made up when I asked to borrow the tool.


Gonna need to help me after my turbo motor pops on the brown car.

Should be shortly after the new turbo gets here next week.

You got Calvin's old car? Lets me know, can help with whatever.

What turbo you gonna run? Had a 35r right?

[milKt]

Proven. Did Don recommend stainless?

I was more wondering if Don suggested the SS to Carbon Fiber Tony Maloney (97mreaper) or if Tony asked Don to use stainless steel
as I'd hate to think that Don changed his mind about the quality of a copper o-ring.

Then again,
we'd not need to look far to see how well copper has helled the combustion within the six chambers of Boris' firey, spinning dungeon.

[BavarianLove]

Ya, I was just worried about spitting combustion out of the copper. But I suppose that all depends on tune/calibration.

[e30kid89]

I was more wondering if Don suggested the SS to Carbon Fiber Tony Maloney (97mreaper) or if Tony asked Don to use stainless steel
as I'd hate to think that Don changed his mind about the quality of a copper o-ring.

Then again,
we'd not need to look far to see how well copper has helled the combustion within the six chambers of Boris' firey, spinning dungeon.

IIRC, I think he will be going with SS rings on the new motor(s)

I have SS rings in mine.

[Z3speed4me]

SS O-Ring goodness.... oh I can't wait to do this!

[VwAlex]

For what it's worth:

When I started researching O-ringing the block, seeing how sparse the info was on copper vs ss wire here, I started going around Diesel shops. Guys with ******** have been O-ringing their blocks forever now and they all use piano wire (SS).

[Impulsed7]

I just did it based on reading other's threads. Not sure what Don recommends, kind of had my mind made up when I asked to borrow the tool.



You got Calvin's old car? Lets me know, can help with whatever.

What turbo you gonna run? Had a 35r right?

Yup Calvins old car. Made 511whp with the GT3582R on a crap manifold and a boost leak with meth.

Got a new much better manifold, and a 6266 Ball bearing on the way, tune was rich with the old one, so should be fine with the new. If not I'll get it tweaked. I'm mainly worried about the stock M52 bottom end now.

[RK-Tunes]

Don did copper orings for my 1000+whp motor.
I asked for and wanted stainless but got copper.
I let the wizard be the wizard.

[VwAlex]

Don did copper orings for my 1000+whp motor.
I asked for and wanted stainless but got copper.
I let the wizard be the wizard.

not what i wanted to hear... now I have doubts again.

[RK-Tunes]

Here is some info to help you make your own decision
copper compresses way more then stainless and Don feared that the stainless would acxatuly cut into the gasket vs just press against it like copper.
I have seen first hand that copper orings with a stock gasket NEEDS a retorque after a few heat cycles (~500 miles) to maintain constant torque values. My suds went from 125lbs to 90-100lbs after 400-430 miles.
With stainless you most likely will not need a retorque but I personaly suggest it.
Das boot is runing stainless orings after blowing his HG with copper orings. And he has no issues. If my HG ever lets out I may try SS orings.

[badluckM3]

Here is some info to help you make your own decision
copper compresses way more then stainless and Don feared that the stainless would acxatuly cut into the gasket vs just press against it like copper.
I have seen first hand that copper orings with a stock gasket NEEDS a retorque after a few heat cycles (~500 miles) to maintain constant torque values. My suds went from 125lbs to 90-100lbs after 400-430 miles.
With stainless you most likely will not need a retorque but I personaly suggest it.
Das boot is runing stainless orings after blowing his HG with copper orings. And he has no issues. If my HG ever lets out I may try SS orings.

I think a retourqe is key as well. Wish you could torque the 11mm studs without removing the cams :(


Yup Calvins old car. Made 511whp with the GT3582R on a crap manifold and a boost leak with meth.

Got a new much better manifold, and a 6266 Ball bearing on the way, tune was rich with the old one, so should be fine with the new. If not I'll get it tweaked. I'm mainly worried about the stock M52 bottom end now.

Which mani? It had an AA manifold if I'm not mistaken. The AA mani ported is a pretty good set up. CES makes great power with them. Not quite a crap mani.

[djborya]

I have never re-torqued and have been using copper for a while... soft timing is key.
Stainless wire will seal better then copper for sure no brainier there.
more clamp force around the cylinders because of stiffer o-rings=better seal,though i never needed it. this time it is 1/2 studs and stainless rings... i will report once i have melted something... i doubt i will be able to blow that combo even with a crappy tune.if something goes wrong it will be melt down with this type of sealing technique.
B

[badluckM3]

Just finished the torque sequence with the 11mm ARP2000s. Final torque was to 105ft/lb.

And the Timecerts held!!!! Fist pumping in the garage first thing in the morning :alright

[milKt]

Congrats so far

and some good info coming from this thread.

[BadBoostedBmwM3]

Just finished the torque sequence with the 11mm ARP2000s. Final torque was to 105ft/lb.

And the Timecerts held!!!! Fist pumping in the garage first thing in the morning :alright

Ahh, a true boost junky. Working at 8 in the morning on Sunday.

[RK-Tunes]

To Boris.
If you check your headstud torque after a few heat cycles with your 1/2 in studs that are torque to value. Not 32lb 90* 90*. You will see the gasket compresses and you need to retorque to get back to what you want the final torque to be.
With your stainless orings it may lose that much, but its worth the 2 hours to pull the cans out and check torque.

To badluck m3. It sucks to pull the cams out but its worth it!. I have 1/2 in head studs and I pulled min afr safety

[97mreaper]

I was more wondering if Don suggested the SS to Carbon Fiber Tony Maloney (97mreaper) or if Tony asked Don to use stainless steel
as I'd hate to think that Don changed his mind about the quality of a copper o-ring.

Then again,
we'd not need to look far to see how well copper has helled the combustion within the six chambers of Boris' firey, spinning dungeon.

Don suggested it not me!


I have never re-torqued and have been using copper for a while... soft timing is key.
Stainless wire will seal better then copper for sure no brainier there.
more clamp force around the cylinders because of stiffer o-rings=better seal,though i never needed it. this time it is 1/2 studs and stainless rings... i will report once i have melted something... i doubt i will be able to blow that combo even with a crappy tune.if something goes wrong it will be melt down with this type of sealing technique.
B

And this is why don most likely went with ss with my motor! I told him i wanted it bullet proof!!! :)

[milKt]

OK.
My engine is his 1st BMW o-ring recipient so just checking/tapping his brain by proxy.

Nothing is bullet proof with our engines,

but watching Boris go 3 seasons (IIRC) with the copper o-rings, careful timing
and pushing his car to the whp/wtq limit that WE'LL never see,
it seems that copper works just fine. :)

[RK-Tunes]

So I guess after my motor he changed his thoughts.
no worrys my Don built motor will see tons of abuse in the next week. Lets see how it likes it.!

[milKt]

Abuse.

:drool:



BTW Sorry for OT OP.

[RK-Tunes]

watching Boris go 3 seasons (IIRC) with the copper o-rings, careful timing
and pushing his car to the whp/wtq limit that WE'LL never see,
it seems that copper works just fine. :)
We don't ALL have modest goals

[97mreaper]

We don't ALL have modest goals

Im not saying he changed his thoughts! Please don't put words in my mouth, i think I'm the ginny pig because this is the first he has used ss. So I'm not saying my build is better nor worse just trying something different thats all!

[GG///M3]

So badluckm3 when do you think she will be back beating up the streets?

[badluckM3]

So badluckm3 when do you think she will be back beating up the streets?

Should be able to get it done during this week. Besides, 28 degrees ain't fun in the garage today. Maybe get a break in this weather this week.

[GG///M3]

Should be able to get it done during this week. Besides, 28 degrees ain't fun in the garage today. Maybe get a break in this weather this week.

I hear you man. I have a pest like leak that only shows when the car is started dead cold out side. Which means its to cold to fix, but we are supposed to hit the mid to high 40's this week.

[Impulsed7]

According to Calvin, it had some crap ebay looking manifold and he put the SPA manifold on.

[badluckM3]

According to Calvin, it had some crap ebay looking manifold and he put the SPA manifold on.

Right on, maybe it was AA tuning or something?? Anywho, good luck with that.

Cams/vanos are back in, down the home stretch. Just need to get the intake back on, and button up the charge pipe/wg/exhaust. Maybe tonight I'll get that done.

Oring tool is off to the next junky...Don is the man!! :redspot

[Impulsed7]

Dyno day soon at DTP or Rameybuilt?

[badluckM3]

Dyno day soon at DTP or Rameybuilt?

Most likely DTP, its about 1.5 miles from the house, and that's where I was when we were spewing coolant about just before this endeavor.

Should be driving it this weekend. After last night, just need to tighten down the turbo water/oil lines, and do a pressure test. Then need to put on the 325i slave, and bleed.

[futureroadracer]

Good stuff, Ben. I look forward to the results!

[badluckM3]

Keys to a solid alignment...clothes pins
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q123/benbimmer/a078ce60.jpg

Father-in-law and I got the Longacre toe plates, and camber tool a few years ago. Great to be able to do your own alignment.

Anywho, need to put more miles on the car so I can do a retorque. Have about 300 miles on, was going to go to 500 before retorque. I've hit a max of 3psi.

It hurts so bad to not mash the throttle and feel real boost :(

[BadBoostedBmwM3]

Whatever works.

[Z3speed4me]

So what is the verdict, stainless or copper is the better way to go?

Obviously the positive is better clamping force, but is there a downside at all to using SS instead? (besides exploding like hiroshima if your tune sucks, which it won't)

[M5Hunter]

How did I miss this one? Sorry to see you had an issue but glad to see it back together stronger than before!

[badluckM3]

So what is the verdict, stainless or copper is the better way to go?

Obviously the positive is better clamping force, but is there a downside at all to using SS instead? (besides exploding like hiroshima if your tune sucks, which it won't)

Dunno, have yet to throw any abuse at it yet. Plus, running the 87mm bore, I just want an effing seal between the cylinders. Less squish with SS, and hopefully enough clamp load with the 11mm arp2000's is a winning combo for my setup.


How did I miss this one? Sorry to see you had an issue but glad to see it back together stronger than before!

Yea, remember I had to tighten my coolant hoses because they were pissing out at bimmerfest??!? Not good.
Never seen my coolant hoses with a sweet bulge like that before. But the thing never overheated, just excess coolant pressure. Knew I had a problem, just took me a little time to get around to fixing it.

[badluckM3]

I'll be doing the retorque this weekend. What is suggested for this?

In the proper torque sequence, back off nut, and retorque to straight to spec - one by one?

[Nate P]

retarded question; What is the Indian sealant for?

[BavarianLove]

I'll be doing the retorque this weekend. What is suggested for this?

In the proper torque sequence, back off nut, and retorque to straight to spec - one by one?

I would not recommend doing it given your setup. You used the 32ft. Lbs. 90 90 method and on a stock gasket right?

[badluckM3]

I would not recommend doing it given your setup. You used the 32ft. Lbs. 90 90 method and on a stock gasket right?

No, well stock gasket yes, but with the ARP Ultra lube and 11mm arp2000s, the procedure is torque to 105ft/lb in 3 increments. So I did 35-70-105.

[GG///M3]

No, well stock gasket yes, but with the ARP Ultra lube and 11mm arp2000s, the procedure is torque to 105ft/lb in 3 increments. So I did 35-70-105.

Knowledge, but doesn't it also require a retorque?

[Z3speed4me]

I may be wrong... please correct me if so.
I thought retq was just to tq up again to the spec they should be at...not to loosen then tighten from scratch again.

[badluckM3]

Knowledge, but doesn't it also require a retorque?

The ARP instructions included do not call for a retorque. But I planned on doing one. I've babied it so far up to these 500 miles, hit a max of 3 psi....exhibiting immense restraint from mashing right foot.

A retorque would just take an afternoon, but seems worth it to ensure gasket fully settled out, and ensure uniformity. :dunno


I may be wrong... please correct me if so.
I thought retq was just to tq up again to the spec they should be at...not to loosen then tighten from scratch again.

Well only loosen one at a time, and retorque. That's what I've read, not just attempt to check as is...

[BavarianLove]

The reason for loosening for some guys is because the use the 90 degree method. Just take valve cover off and retorque your studs at 105 :).

[BadBoostedBmwM3]

The reason for loosening for some guys is because the use the 90 degree method. Just take valve cover off and retorque your studs at 105 :).

So, you prefer the newer torque-value method??

[GG///M3]

The ARP instructions included do not call for a retorque. But I planned on doing one. I've babied it so far up to these 500 miles, hit a max of 3 psi....exhibiting immense restraint from mashing right foot.

A retorque would just take an afternoon, but seems worth it to ensure gasket fully settled out, and ensure uniformity. :dunno



Well only loosen one at a time, and retorque. That's what I've read, not just attempt to check as is...

Yea I think arp says that based on the usage of an mls, but I'm just guessing. :D

[Colby Colbs]

Can you retorque with out pulling cams with the 11mm stud? That would be cool.

As far as your re-tq question, don't back the nut off of then just check to see they are still at 105ft lb, if they are not then re tighten to 105.

Some gaskets require more re-tq'n but they should always be checked in my opinion. Again, just check the tq and make sure they are all at 105 when your done. You'll be fine.

[BavarianLove]

So, you prefer the newer torque-value method??

No I like the torque to yeild method 32ft lbs. 90 degree 90 degree. But only for the 10mm ones that I'm used to. Especially for a metal gasket. Use at your own risk.

[badluckM3]

Can you retorque with out pulling cams with the 11mm stud? That would be cool.

As far as your re-tq question, don't back the nut off of then just check to see they are still at 105ft lb, if they are not then re tighten to 105.

Some gaskets require more re-tq'n but they should always be checked in my opinion. Again, just check the tq and make sure they are all at 105 when your done. You'll be fine.

Negative..cams gotta come out. Checking the torque it is then.

This rain better move out for the weekend, ready to get my boost on!

[Colby Colbs]

I didn't think so, at least you'll be great at swapping cams LOL!

[rt turbo]

yeah, definitely do not back them out, just put the wrench on the nut and turn until you hit your value.

BTW, I thought with the new lube/arp 2000's the top value was 85 ft/lbs? Is this 105 # something for the 11 mm studs or something?

Glad to see your pistons have enough room as mine are the exact same over-deck protrusion. You did use the elring .070 and SS wire with .012 protrusion right? If so, Il do the EXACT same. Our quench should be supreme though!

[badluckM3]

yeah, definitely do not back them out, just put the wrench on the nut and turn until you hit your value.

BTW, I thought with the new lube/arp 2000's the top value was 85 ft/lbs? Is this 105 # something for the 11 mm studs or something?

Glad to see your pistons have enough room as mine are the exact same over-deck protrusion. You did use the elring .070 and SS wire with .012 protrusion right? If so, Il do the EXACT same. Our quench should be supreme though!

Yes, erling, ss, .012 protrusion. And the 11mm studs are 105 as opposed to the 10mm 85.


I didn't think so, at least you'll be great at swapping cams LOL!

Oh yea. Borrowed Futureroadracer's vanos tool, makes quick work.

[GG///M3]

Yes, erling, ss, .012 protrusion. And the 11mm studs are 105 as opposed to the 10mm 85.



Oh yea. Borrowed Futureroadracer's vanos tool, makes quick work.

You need to get us some vids of the cam swapping like Jonathan gets us from Don's. It would be kool to see.

[badluckM3]

You need to get us some vids of the cam swapping like Jonathan gets us from Don's. It would be kool to see.

That would be cool, just don't have the gear.

But I'm done.

Head retorqued to 105 ft/lb, just need to put cams back in.

Used my brothers fancy Mac torque wrench, and each one did at least 1/4 turn, if not a little more!! To me, that seems a lot, but the torque wrench I used the first time I believe was a Harbor Freight special unfortunately.

Glad I did the retorque for peace of mind.

[milKt]

So JUST a 1/4 turn (90*) (NO loosening of the nuts)
brought the 11mm head stud bolts back to 105 ft/lbs?

Good info here. A helpful thread. ;)

[BavarianLove]

You checking the torque on the small bolts around timing chain area?

[GG///M3]

That would be cool, just don't have the gear.

But I'm done.

Head retorqued to 105 ft/lb, just need to put cams back in.

Used my brothers fancy Mac torque wrench, and each one did at least 1/4 turn, if not a little more!! To me, that seems a lot, but the torque wrench I used the first time I believe was a Harbor Freight special unfortunately.

Glad I did the retorque for peace of mind.

You are now ready to crank it up and or hit the track. :redspot

[BMWManiac]

Wow, that seems like quite a bit to be retorquing, no? A whole, quarter turn? Good thing you rechecked though!

[GG///M3]

Wow, that seems like quite a bit to be retorquing, no? A whole, quarter turn? Good thing you rechecked though!

Are you on a MLS head gasket?

[///M3///M5]

If the tap and thread-certs are not perfectly straight, you will keep bending studs...

[badluckM3]

So JUST a 1/4 turn (90*) (NO loosening of the nuts)
brought the 11mm head stud bolts back to 105 ft/lbs?

Good info here. A helpful thread. ;)

NO loosening nuts, just set to 105 and turned away.

[milKt]

You checking the torque on the small bolts around timing chain area?

9, 10 & 11? the TORX bolts

They move through the gasket too don't they. Good question.
I am beginning MY REtorque this weekend too (with time allowed).


http://www.realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/d/h/1.png

[badluckM3]

Are you on a MLS head gasket?
No, stock erling.


If the tap and thread-certs are not perfectly straight, you will keep bending studs...

Understood, risk I have to take at this point. Maybe some time down the road I'll swap my internals into another block. But baby on the way, and closing on a new house end of this month. Gotta keep this on the cheap for now.


You checking the torque on the small bolts around timing chain area?

Yes, had to torque those too. I don't use a measurement device for those small ones other than "feel". I just don't get all He-man on those things.

[GG///M3]

No, stock erling.



Understood, risk I have to take at this point. Maybe some time down the road I'll swap my internals into another block. But baby on the way, and closing on a new house end of this month. Gotta keep this on the cheap for now.

I know you have the erling, but I was wondering about the other guy.

[RK-Tunes]

Arp says if you want to retorque then back the nut off slightly and bring it back to the desired torque. No extra lube is needed.
I just went ahead and checked torque on mine and they were all 90-100 from the original 125lbs. So I didn't have to back them off. I just uped the torque

[BavarianLove]

Arp says if you want to retorque then back the nut off slightly and bring it back to the desired torque. No extra lube is needed.
I just went ahead and checked torque on mine and they were all 90-100 from the original 125lbs. So I didn't have to back them off. I just uped the torque

Why the fvck would you back off the nuts on a torque spec stud?

[milKt]

Why the fvck would you back off the nuts on a torque spec stud?

two reasons

[BavarianLove]

All ears Craig..

[GG///M3]

Most likely not to snap anything.

[milKt]

1. to be able to perform the torque procedure properly (32 ft/lbs + 90* + 90*)

and

2. you told us to :) - http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=20796210&postcount=34

however,
I have a bit different, but very SPECIFIC instructions from my builder as to retorque my o-ring/OE gasket set-up.

[BavarianLove]

1. to be able to perform the torque procedure properly (32 ft/lbs + 90* + 90*)

and

2. you told us to :) - http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=20796210&postcount=34

however,
I have a bit different, but very SPECIFIC instructions from my builder as to retorque my o-ring/OE gasket set-up.

No we are talking about op's 11mm raceware studs and steel inserts.


Most likely not to snap anything.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc169/george041950/o-facepalm.jpg

[milKt]

No we are talking about op's 11mm raceware studs and steel inserts.


No,
you were asking Jordan who actually has 1/2 studs,
but size doesn't matter here.

It is the difference between TTY bolts/studs or not, IIRC.

I think the debate between backing then nuts off and retorquing each is a good one.

[BavarianLove]

No Craig. I would retorque a 1/2" arp headstud to arp's desired torque spec. Just like badluck did with his raceware studs.

Why is this so hard to understand. The only reason to untorque the nuts would be because you used a degree method. You can't measure a degree method in a torque spec number.

[milKt]

The only reason to untorque the nuts would be because you used a degree method. You can't measure a degree method in a torque spec number.

10-4

It was difficult to understand because you did not specify what type of torque spec.
Had you used the term ft/lb or NM torque spec, I wouldn't have been confused.

32 ft/lbs + 90* + 90* is also a "torque spec" :)

"Degree method" is another confusing term.
"Torque angle" would be better understood.

[BavarianLove]

Ya sorry. I meant degree v.s. Torque number in ft lbs.

[milKt]

All this re-torque talk has me sweeping out my garage, ready to back the bitch in and flop her on stilts again.

[BavarianLove]

You know what to do.

[badluckM3]

All this re-torque talk has me sweeping out my garage, ready to back the bitch in and flop her on stilts again.

No stilts needed, just back her in and start tearing apart.

Did all that work today, and it's raining all weekend...good times.

[milKt]

No stilts needed, .

Well,

I have some other areas to check out...but yeah.

[BMWManiac]

Are you on a MLS head gasket?

To be honest, I don't know. Last time I did my head gasket, it was a MLS. Since then, I've had the car down to TRM who redid it and I'm not sure if they reused the gasket or not.

[GG///M3]

To be honest, I don't know. Last time I did my head gasket, it was a MLS. Since then, I've had the car down to TRM who redid it and I'm not sure if they reused the gasket or not.

Trm seems to stick to the MLS. Maybe they can chime in on this. Either way how many miles do you have on the current setup, or maybe I should just pm you or bump ur thread I don't want to side track the OP's thread. :)

[BMWManiac]

Trm seems to stick to the MLS. Maybe they can chime in on this. Either way how many miles do you have on the current setup, or maybe I should just pm you or bump ur thread I don't want to side track the OP's thread. :)

I picked up my car at 4ngiefest '09. I imagine I have roughly 5k miles since then.

When I installed the gasket, BadboostedM3 and I torque'd them with the 32 ft/lbs, then 2 x 90 degree turns. Shortly within maybe another 1k miles, the car was shipped down to TRM.