Is an E38 costly to maintain?

[thphon]

Hi everyone,

Before talking about the subject let me introduce myself. My name is Leo and I'm brand new to the forum. I'm from Argentina, I'll be moving for work to Orlando, FL at some point next month and staying there for at least a couple of years.
I've liked BMWs my whole life (who doesnt, right?) but the thing is in Argentina they are really really expensive (just to give you an idea, a 1995 328i with, say 80k miles, costs at least $15K). When I started to look for an used car in the states I've realized there are a lot of E38 (term I discovered not over a week ago, hehe) for around $5K. I've read several consumer reviews in kbb, edmunds and such and most of them argue that maintaining one of these is quite expensive.
Then I searched for buyer guides (by the way, that's how I found out about this forum) and it seemed it wasn't that bad.
So, I'd like to get some feedback from you guys, to know based on your knowledge and experience which one really is.
By the way, I'm not a mechanic in fact, I know very little about cars but more than gladly I'd start to get more involved if I can start driving one of these beauties :D
Another disclaimer, I probably should've check the forum in more detail first, but I'm quite anxious, sorry if there are threads like this one, hehe.
Alright, I have zillion more questions :) but I guess this is enough for a first post.

Thanks,
Leo

[rdorman]

Generally, yes :devillook

[jac1d]

It was almost $100K new, depending on options.

The parts are still quite expensive. You can do a lot of work yourself (I don't, but others here do), which saves money, but parts can still be scary expensive. If you need new cats, or you need new EDC shocks etc you can spend thousands easy.

They are amazing cars, but just make sure you have the budget to recover if something serious goes wrong.

-Jeff

[COLO740iSport]

Generally, yes :devillook

:cashwalle

You have to get the disease we all have to accept it. It's not hard to get - just drive one.

[exred92]

Last year spend about $1500-2000 on repairs, about $500 on upgrades and who knows how much on petrol in Chicago is about $4.00 a gallon.But it's E38 sport and that says it all :D.

[thphon]

Thanks for you answers guys.
Now I realized I didn't make the right question. It's only logical that if something goes wrong with a car like this it's going to be expensive to fix it.
What I'd like to know is if in your experience things go wrong often or not.
In my case I wouldn't be using the car a lot, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be making more than 500 miles per month.
So let's say I'm able to find one in good shape, bad luck aside, would it still be that expensive?

[schigara]

If you like the car, just get one. Parts and labor are almost double(a bit less than double) that of a japanese car. They break down about the same amount as any other European car.

If you set bad luck aside, an E38 will only cost you gas and oil changes and basic service.

Finding a cream puff with tons of service records is no more a guarantee than that of a heavily used one with spotty records. Crap still happens and Murphy with his damn law will still get you in the end.

Also, no matter what the car or fluid used in the auto transmission, no car should go 100k miles before service. Lifetime fluid is BS. Fluid and filter should be changed at an interval of no greater than 50k miles. Preferably, fluid and filter should be changed at 35-40k miles.

[COLO740iSport]

Why buy one if your only going to drive it 500 miles a month? I drive that in 5 days.

[rdorman]

:cashwalle

You have to get the disease we all have to accept it. It's not hard to get - just drive one.

I have had mine for four years. This week, battery, alternator, secondary air fitting repair, cps, coolant change.... all required. And the car is a cream puff.

Too late... already got the disease. Love driving that car. But the answer to the OP is "Generally, yes". :)

OP, what I listed above at a dealer, pushing $2000+. DIY, <$800. And welcome! Both to this forum and the states:cool

[texase34]

Yes

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using BF.com

[Cheyne]

When it comes to e38's you in my opinion you have two choices:

1. Find one that has been fastidiously maintained and has been used regularly. You'll generally have to pay over the odds to buy it, but your only expenses will be keeping on top of the maintenance. Generally about $1000 per year (depending on miles travelled).

2. Buy one that is in need of maintenance and bring it back to standard. Finding e38s in this state will be cheaper, but you'll then spend a fair amount on repairs. The advantage of this is knowing that everything has been replaced and is 'as new'. Once you've bought it back up to spec the ownership costs will be about the same.

From what I've found, e38s like to be driven. So buying one and then driving it sparingly in the hopes of saving money won't work. You're better to drive it regularly and enjoy it.

[thphon]

From what I've found, e38s like to be driven. So buying one and then driving it sparingly in the hopes of saving money won't work. You're better to drive it regularly and enjoy it.

I guess I would drive it 500 miles per month just because the commute is only about 5 miles.

[Cheyne]

I guess I would drive it 500 miles per month just because the commute is only about 5 miles.

I'd either buy a cheap commuter car instead or plan on taking some nice weekend drives in the country in your 7 then.

Driving 5 miles a day in your 7 will cause you more hassle than it's worth. All you'll do is clog up the engine and run your battery flat.

[thphon]

OP, what I listed above at a dealer, pushing $2000+. DIY, <$800. And welcome! Both to this forum and the states:cool

Thanks!
DIY in that case means you do all for yourself? or just that you don't take it to an official BMW service center for everything?


Driving 5 miles a day in your 7 will cause you more hassle than it's worth. All you'll do is clog up the engine and run your battery flat.

Hmmm... that's a bummer. Can I pretend I didn't read it? :P

[rdorman]

Thanks!
DIY in that case means you do all for yourself? or just that you don't take it to an official BMW service center for everything?


DIY = Do It Yourself

They are a LOT of car that can be had for a very good price. Do your research (which you are starting now!), get a PPI, walk if it doesn't feel right, learn to do a few things to the car yourself, find a good INDY and enjoy!

FYI, my commute is not long either. Maybe five miles tops. My alternator and CPS failed because they where the originals... over eleven years old with over 126k miles. Not bad. The battery was over five years old so not terrible either. I put 2-3k a year in maintenence and repairs (some DIY the rest INDY) averaging about 8k miles a year.

[thphon]

Also, no matter what the car or fluid used in the auto transmission, no car should go 100k miles before service. Lifetime fluid is BS. Fluid and filter should be changed at an interval of no greater than 50k miles. Preferably, fluid and filter should be changed at 35-40k miles.

How much does that fluid and filter change cost?

[Cheyne]

Hmmm... that's a bummer. Can I pretend I didn't read it? :P

Not to worry, once you start you'll become an addict like the rest of us and start finding excuses to drive further and further :D

[schigara]

Filter Kit is about $70 which includes Filtran filter, o-ring and pan gasket. You have your choice of LT71141 compatible fluids which range from $6-$11 per quart.


How much does that fluid and filter change cost?

[thphon]

FYI, my commute is not long either. Maybe five miles tops. My alternator and CPS failed because they where the originals... over eleven years old with over 126k miles. Not bad. The battery was over five years old so not terrible either. I put 2-3k a year in maintenence and repairs (some DIY the rest INDY) averaging about 8k miles a year.

I'd like to spend on the car around $5k (my other options are audi a6 late 90s or volvo s80 00-01 but by some distance). Does anybody know if there's much difference in the maintenance? Perhaps there's not even much difference with other kind of cars... I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here...
My problem is since I haven't lived in the states yet (went several times but stayed couple of months tops) I don't know if 1-2k per year (trying to be cautiously optimistic :P) is a lot of money or not for that car. Because prices in Argentina are really messed up and I don't have a point of reference.

[C4RACER]

5 miles in FL? ride a bike!! Still get a E38 for weekend trips, by all means!!

But I think your $5K budget is a bit unrealistic. Sure, you can buy a E38 for that - maybe a 97 or 98 non sport with 125K+ miles. But it will likely need a couple $K in maint / repairs.

For $5K you might be better off with a first gen Lexus LS400 to be honest. Or that would buy you a pretty decent E39 528i or even E34 525i.

[sigtwenty]

i got mine for $2000 bucks. in late october 2011.

first day on the road legally was jan 4th 2012. i have spent close to $600 (not 100% accurate but best cloest guess) from date of purchase to first startup on jan 4th which included valve cover gaskets, intake manifold gaskets, other vac lines, plugs, screws. since then i have another $160 into it (oil change, center link and tie rods which i knew about when i bought it).
next is an alternator as its making a little noise.
over the next year, ill be weeding out the age issues and get it up to better condition.
overall, over the next 12 months, ill probably be spending about $2000 total including a transmission flush. keep in mind, that the newest of these cars is 11 years old, and 11 year old problems exist on all cars...mine is 16 years old with 187k miles on it. over the next 2 years, ill expect to pop in close to another $4000 into it, replacing many many other things, mostly just because its aged and needs to be replaced at some point so replace it before it fails or it does need replacement depending on what goes on.

figure, if you do oil changes yourself, $65. if you get one with recods, that helps. mine had no records, which is why im doing all the stuff that should be done because it cant hurt.

[C4RACER]

cool! actually, it's funny - I live on a court and 3 of the 4 houses on the court have E38's. My buddy has a '98 (i think) with similar miles - 190K or so. I see he has been having a lot more issues lately, but so far the car is still treating him well enough to keep it going. He probably didn't do as much preventative maint as he should have, or as much as I would have. Trans died at 135K for him. I'm at 102K so probably worth a trans flush now actually.

[thphon]

For $5K you might be better off with a first gen Lexus LS400 to be honest. Or that would buy you a pretty decent E39 528i or even E34 525i.

Let's say I buy an E39 528i, would it be that much cheaper to maintain?
For what I've read so far, it seems regular maintenance of a 7 is not that expensive and is not prone to fall apart, just the car age is the problem and I'm fine with that.
My fear would be if I knew the car is really fragile, but doesn't look like that.

Is it too obvious that I really want one? :)


i got mine for $2000 bucks. in late october 2011.

first day on the road legally was jan 4th 2012. i have spent close to $600 (not 100% accurate but best cloest guess) from date of purchase to first startup on jan 4th which included valve cover gaskets, intake manifold gaskets, other vac lines, plugs, screws. since then i have another $160 into it (oil change, center link and tie rods which i knew about when i bought it).
next is an alternator as its making a little noise.
over the next year, ill be weeding out the age issues and get it up to better condition.
overall, over the next 12 months, ill probably be spending about $2000 total including a transmission flush. keep in mind, that the newest of these cars is 11 years old, and 11 year old problems exist on all cars...mine is 16 years old with 187k miles on it. over the next 2 years, ill expect to pop in close to another $4000 into it, replacing many many other things, mostly just because its aged and needs to be replaced at some point so replace it before it fails or it does need replacement depending on what goes on.

figure, if you do oil changes yourself, $65. if you get one with recods, that helps. mine had no records, which is why im doing all the stuff that should be done because it cant hurt.

Alright, that isn't that bad.
I know things can happen, but if I get one with records as you said, around 120K (I've seen quite a few with that mileage) and the PPI doesn't see any major problems, I should be good, right? or that's just wishful thinking?

[kimokk]

I got mine two years ago, Jan 2010 for $4800. It had 143,000 miles on it. The previous owner had records for a lot of recent maintenance which I liked! Mainly cooling system maintenance, air conditioning, ABS module and oil changes.

Over the the next two years I experienced a lot of the common problems, issues, and wear and tear items, such as:

-Valve cover and upper timing cover gaskets
-Windshield wiper issues - change relay
-electrical gremlins related to ignition switch
-stuck ignition tumbler
-EWS failure
-Valley pan gasket leak
-CCV change
-fuel tank replacement due to leak
-Heater control valve/aux water pump leak
-replace 8 ignition coils (for better performance)
-spark plug change (tune up)
-fuel filter replaced
-o2 sensors replaced
-MAF change (hesitation and rough tranny shifts)
-tranny filter change and fluid replace
-BG tranny flush
-engine mounts replaced
-flex disk (guibo) replaced
-front and rear suspension components all replaced (struts, control arms, bushings, ball joints)
-two sets of tires, roadforce balancing, a few alignments
-fuel tank breather valve replaced
-power steering hoses replaced
- oil pan replaced
-timing guide chain tensioner replaced
-hood bowden cable and latches replaced

The car is almost totally refreshed and drives so nicely now! Just saving up for the eventual timing guide rails failure. So as you can see from the above, this cost over $10000 over the past two years a lot of it was DIY though.

So now I have about $15k in to this car and if I tried to sell it would only get maybe $6000. I also have over 177,000 miles on it, so this car cost me about 50 cents per mile to own and operate (excluding the gas and oil changes).

I recommend taking a look at this link (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1395817) and the e38.org for all the common things that usually need to be replaced on this vehicle. Good luck on your search.

[redpicker]

is an E38 costly to maintain?Are you kidding?

Don't get me wrong, I love the car so I don't mind the high maintenance cost, but it costs more to maintain this vehicle than any other vehicle I've owned.

It's not that
1) there is always some thing little breaking, or
2) replacement parts cost much more, or
3) labor costs at a shop that is capable of working on it are considerably higher, or
4) it needs being worked on much more often.

No, it's not any of those things; it is all those things.

These cars are so old that the dealers don't even do a good job at fixing things anymore; their techs are trained to work on the new cars, not 12-17 year-old ones.

Just an example is an oil change. You can get an oil change on a Toyota at the neighborhood jiffy-lube for $25 or so. Even doing it yourself, an oil change on an E38 is going to cost over $75. That's 9 quarts of Mobil1 Euro-Blend 0W40 at $7-8/quart, and a $12 filter. Sure, you can take it to the jiffy-lube, but they will mar the filter housing by using pliers to remove the top, break the rubber isolaters, and fill with Penzoil 0W-30 (conventional oil) and not close the under-carriage cover properly; and they will still charge you over $50 for the privilege. That's why good independent mechanics will charge you $100-$150 for an oil change; not only is it worth it, that's what it costs them.

So, if you just want an E38, then it really doesn't matter what we say. If you want to keep your maintenance cost lower, spend more up-front for a well maintained one (a well-maintained '97 with 180,000 miles will often have lower maintenance costs than a '01 with 60,000 miles that has a "clean" maintenance record--"clean" meaning no major items needing replacing and oil changes every time it's indicated).

If you are only going to drive it 5 miles at a time, your maintenance costs will be higher than average.

rp

[SirReal63]

A lot of it depends on the car, but in general we are talking about at least an 11 to 15 year old luxury car. Things will break or wear out or just degrade from age. Even with service records that does not mean it will be dependable and never need a little love. How the car was used also comes into play. Mine was cosmetically perfect, had several of the usual replacement items done and was serviced regularly, but the PO wan a wealthy old many who did not drive the car a lot. I know the family who owned it before, but didn't know that when I bought it off a high end used car lot. I have had things break, wear out and just completely fail. I expected this, and expect more still to come, the engine, while runs perfectly, does have a little sludge from all of the years of short trips in it. No biggie, it is being handled and the car is doing better than I would have imagined. PO must have used Jiffy Lube as he got more senile. :-)

These cars are not dependable or un-dependable, they are mechanical works of art that represented the height of technology for when they were made. Things will need to be handled when they come up. Don't expect that it will never have an issue, it will, but taking care of it and moving forward is all that needs to happen. Fix what breaks and appreciate the car. If you can work on it yourself the value gets much better, and they are easy to work on, extremely easy. The only warning I would give, if you cannot afford to pay for the parts to fix it, don't buy it. You may get lucky and never have to do anything to the car, but the odds of that are very slim.

My lady drives a 2010 Infinity G37s and guess whose car gets used when we go any where together? She doesn't even walk towards her car, she goes straight to the 7, and her car is fabulous, but it doesn't compare.

[C4RACER]

Let's say I buy an E39 528i, would it be that much cheaper to maintain?
For what I've read so far, it seems regular maintenance of a 7 is not that expensive and is not prone to fall apart, just the car age is the problem and I'm fine with that.
My fear would be if I knew the car is really fragile, but doesn't look like that.

Is it too obvious that I really want one? :)



yes, I do believe that an E38 will require significantly more maint / repair than a comparable age 528i. There is more technology in the 7, which is simply more things to go wrong. And the V8 is generally more costly to keep going than the venerable BMW straight 6.

But no, the cars are far from fragile. Well built and generally robust. But mechanical stuff does break over time and these cars are 10+ years old. And the more stuff to break, the more it will cost you - in time and parts.

[Route 66]

Welcome to the forums and good luck with whatever you decide.

[LaserSVT]

A lot of it depends on the car, but in general we are talking about at least an 11 to 15 year old luxury car. Things will break or wear out or just degrade from age. Even with service records that does not mean it will be dependable and never need a little love. How the car was used also comes into play. Mine was cosmetically perfect, had several of the usual replacement items done and was serviced regularly, but the PO wan a wealthy old many who did not drive the car a lot. I know the family who owned it before, but didn't know that when I bought it off a high end used car lot. I have had things break, wear out and just completely fail. I expected this, and expect more still to come, the engine, while runs perfectly, does have a little sludge from all of the years of short trips in it. No biggie, it is being handled and the car is doing better than I would have imagined. PO must have used Jiffy Lube as he got more senile. :-)

These cars are not dependable or un-dependable, they are mechanical works of art that represented the height of technology for when they were made. Things will need to be handled when they come up. Don't expect that it will never have an issue, it will, but taking care of it and moving forward is all that needs to happen. Fix what breaks and appreciate the car. If you can work on it yourself the value gets much better, and they are easy to work on, extremely easy. The only warning I would give, if you cannot afford to pay for the parts to fix it, don't buy it. You may get lucky and never have to do anything to the car, but the odds of that are very slim.

My lady drives a 2010 Infinity G37s and guess whose car gets used when we go any where together? She doesn't even walk towards her car, she goes straight to the 7, and her car is fabulous, but it doesn't compare.
Maybe its just cause she dont want you in her car. :p



No as a mechanic there are things I gotta ask here when it comes to cost of services. Whats with the oil? Euro blend? Ive had this discussion on Stangnet before. There is a member there I haveknown for years and he works for a lab that is oe of them "Tested by an independant lab" when you hear oil or additive ad. He gives the skinny on many things one of which being they cant tell and friction or wear differences between "euro" oil and regular old synthetic. Ive always just used Mobil1 in every car ive had and that included the 4 Porsches, 3 BMWs and the Ferrari. Never had an issue.
As far as filters go I know the car needs them regularly and you can buy OEM 10 packs online for $80 which will save you another $5 every oil change. On average an oil change cost me $6 more on a BMW then a Crown Vic.

Yes most hard parts are quite expensive but as these cars get older its easier to find the needed part in a JY. Granted I wouldnt do front end steering components used but a broken fan or missing switches or seat motors etc etc are readily available. Its all in how good you are at hunting for parts and willingness to turn a wrench.

If I had to have the cars work done by someone I wouldnt be nuying another e38 but since I have a full shop, I got no problem doing it all myself.

[redpicker]

...
Whats with the oil? Euro blend? Ive had this discussion on Stangnet before. There is a member there I haveknown for years and he works for a lab that is oe of them "Tested by an independant lab" when you hear oil or additive ad. He gives the skinny on many things one of which being they cant tell and friction or wear differences between "euro" oil and regular old synthetic.
...
Not wanting to drag this into an "what's the best oil" thread, but the only difference between the "Euro Blend" Mobil1 and "Regular Old Synthetic" Mobil1 I can tell is the weight. Euro Blend is 0W-40 while the others are a variety of weights, the most common for new US cars is 0W-30. The difference is slight and probably doesn't make any difference, but I just feel better using the heavier weight since that is what is recommended. Probably a legacy of my cast-iron block hot-rod days where a heavier weight oil meant more protection. Over the years, I have found that it is probably best to trust the manufacturer's engineering department. I'm really not interested in trying to save $10-$20 on oil (particularly when just filling the tank costs me over $80).

On average an oil change cost me $6 more on a BMW then a Crown Vic.
That's interesting since an E38 BMW holds nearly 60% more oil than the Crown Vic. I'm not doubting you, I just wonder what you pay for oil. That's about $2 a quart.

rp

[LaserSVT]

CV takes 6-6.25 quarts and I figured the BMW takes about 9 so yeah, my bad. Oil filter and oil difference is closer to $21 more. I usually pay $5 (on average) for Mobil1 and the BMW filter is tripple what a Ford FL820S runs. I had also used 5w30 Mobil1 in my last 740i. Hope it didnt hurt it although I dont see how unless there are some uber tiny oil passages.

[sigtwenty]

03+ cv takes 6, 02-older takes 5. (I've owned 2 of them LOL)
BMW takes 8.0-8.5. Oil changes for my cv at a shop were 32 with tax. 6 qts at Costco for Mobil 1 is 37. Just wondering.

[sigtwenty]

Regardless of maintenance coats, either pay $5000 a year in car payments plus maintenance or pay a few extra bucks for said maintenance.

[thphon]

Regardless of maintenance coats, either pay $5000 a year in car payments plus maintenance or pay a few extra bucks for said maintenance.

I like your way of looking at it. Based on that, with 1-2K per year in maintenance/repairs I could consider buying one. If it's more than that, then a 7 is not for me, not right now at least.

[sigtwenty]

I like your way of looking at it. Based on that, with 1-2K per year in maintenance/repairs I could consider buying one. If it's more than that, then a 7 is not for me, not right now at least.

Maybe so. If you wanna save money for now and have very low repair bills get a crown Vic or something else cheap to Save the money until you can find a very well rounded 7.

[Miss BimmerLV]

Extremely!!!!

[thphon]

Maybe so. If you wanna save money for now and have very low repair bills get a crown Vic or something else cheap to Save the money until you can find a very well rounded 7.

I'm not there yet :)

[LaserSVT]

My thought was I could justify $3000 a year in service and maintenance on the car. And I dont mean to the nose. If I spent $3350 a year its not gonna upset me. Taking labor (except alignment) out of the equation and $3000 a year should be more then enough to keep an E38 on the road assuming it was fairly well taken care of its whole life.

[pizzaman09]

An e38 is like a drug. You get hooked quickly, it is very addicting, and it sucks your wallet dry.

They are totally worth it. I average $2000 per year.

[COLO740iSport]

An e38 is like a drug. You get hooked quickly, it is very addicting, and it sucks your wallet dry.

It's like going to Disney land with kids! You hear a big sucking sound then when you get home you find that Mickey took all your money!

Rocky Mountain 2000 740i Sport

[IcemanBHE]

Parts are generally incrementally more than say a Toyota...

But you'll go broke unless you DIY.

My $.07

[thphon]

Understood. If I knew I'll stay in the states for several years I could consider getting a 7, but since all I know for now is that I'll live there 2 years tops the investment wouldn't be worth it.
So my last question is: If I intend to spend around 5k to buy a car and 1k+ per year in maintenance/repairs, would an e36 or e34/e39 be a reasonable target?
By the way, thanks everybody for your help so far! I really appreciate it.

[jac1d]

An E34 sounds like an ideal option for you. You can find them for $2K-$4K for the six cylinder variants for that kind of money (M5 excepted, of course). Maintenance is easy, parts are cheap and readily available (they made over 1 million of them world wide and a LOT are still on the road).

Whatever BMW you buy, I suggest you budget $1500-$2000 to fix everything that needs attention right away and then budget $1000-$2000 for an E34 for annual work. My wife and I both ran them, and she still has her '92 525i and drives it ~100 KMs every day.

-Jeff