TT stage 2 Vs. LS3

[///M3weee...]

I ran into a random C6 Vette (LS3) this weekend and did a 4th gear pull from 4k to redline.

We were neck to neck.

I have 3.15's, 35R @ 13PSI and it was about 80 degrees out.

Does that sound about right :shifty

Who knows, Ls3's are pretty stout engines.

Vette seemed bone stock...not even an exhaust.

[99r6]

holy quad post batman.

[///M3weee...]

LOL my bad but the friken computer said there was an error four times!

Sorry all !

Mods please delete the last four threads but this one, thank you.

[JHEIII850Turbo]

Those trap around in the teens as I remember... sounds about right, maybe time to up the boost.

[DieselGhost]

Those trap around in the teens as I remember... sounds about right, maybe time to up the boost.

forum needs a like button... i would've pressed it :buttrock

[///M3weee...]

Those trap around in the teens as I remember... sounds about right, maybe time to up the boost.

Yeah the C6 traps around 115.

[biglou911]

Yes you are right . Your car is were it supposed to be . Now what turbo are TT kits running ?

Sent from my iPhone using BF.com

[Quicksilver328i]

Yes you are right . Your car is were it supposed to be . Now what turbo are TT kits running ?

Sent from my iPhone using BF.com
60-1 is standard, but I believe he has a GT35R.


Edit to add - they are basically the same thing, just non BB / BB (the basically is bolded because I realize they do have more differences, but some members may not know how similar they are, or that they are both Garrett designs).

[///M3weee...]

60-1 is standard, but I believe he has a GT35R.


Edit to add - they are basically the same thing, just non BB / BB (the basically is bolded because I realize they do have more differences, but some members may not know how similar they are, or that they are both Garrett designs).

Yeah I'm running a GT35r and the TT kits run a 60-1.

We were literally neck to neck and would have shifted to 5th but there was a right hand sweep and we both let off at that point.

Those Ls3's are really stout engines :eyecrazy

Not surprising considering a cam swap gets them 500whp...

[AT]

Something doesn't make sense here. Unless you were running aginst a Z06 with the 500hp/470tq 7L motor, you shouldn't have been anywhere close tied to the C6; you shouldn't have had any issue leaving him by a good margin!

A non-Z06 C6 has only 430hp/430tq CRANK horsepower, your setup should provide those numbers or very close in WHEEL horsepower.

[Quicksilver328i]

Something doesn't make sense here. Unless you were running aginst a Z06 with the 500hp/470tq 7L motor, you shouldn't have been anywhere close tied to the C6; you shouldn't have had any issue leaving him by a good margin!

A non-Z06 C6 has only 430hp/430tq CRANK horsepower, your setup should provide those numbers or very close in WHEEL horsepower.
Weight, gearing, aerodynamics, and the shape of the curve all come into play.

I'll assume you've never driven a C6, so you're comments are taken with a grain of salt...

[///M3weee...]

Something doesn't make sense here. Unless you were running aginst a Z06 with the 500hp/470tq 7L motor, you shouldn't have been anywhere close tied to the C6; you shouldn't have had any issue leaving him by a good margin!

A non-Z06 C6 has only 430hp/430tq CRANK horsepower, your setup should provide those numbers or very close in WHEEL horsepower.

Yeah that's what I was thinking. A TT stage 2 is supposed to make 420ish to the wheels. The LS3 makes 436/428. But it was a warm day (80*).

I'll check my afr's again. At low boost (10psi) I'm at 11.5. Maybe I have a boost leak and running rich...

[AT]

In fact I have driven a Z06, non-Z06, and ZR1. This comparison just seemed strange on how 100hp difference can be made up with "Weight, gearing, aerodynamics, and the shape of the curve" considering both vehicles are similar in gearing, weight, and "shape of the curve".

I'll go educate myself more :D

[Z3speed4me]

Prettymuch same setup as me...

I ran a normal c6 and pulled pretty well on him 3rd through 4th at 15psi (and I have a small boost taper). Also ran a 997 turbo a day or two after and inched on him too. I'd say check out your car out man, something sounds a little off power wise.

[///M3weee...]

Prettymuch same setup as me...

I ran a normal c6 and pulled pretty well on him 3rd through 4th at 15psi (and I have a small boost taper). Also ran a 997 turbo a day or two after and inched on him too. I'd say check out your car out man, something sounds a little off power wise.


Humm you pulled on a c6 right!

What's your afr's at 13 psi?

I may have a boost leak...

Do you break lose in 3rd off a roll by chance?

[milKt]

:eatpop:

[Quicksilver328i]

So a grandsport traps 117, a Z51 traps 115-116, the grandsport is an LS3 (well, with a dry sump system, still just 430 hp), and the Z51 is an LS2 with 400 hp.

TT Stage 2 M3's trap, what? 115 according to Acostillo (so say plus or minus a few mph, in line with C6 corvettes no?). http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1309967

Trap speeds taken from stock designation cars on drag times.com
http://www.dragtimes.com/Chevrolet--Corvette-Drag-Racing.html?resultpage=10


So if anything, I'd say the Vette should be DEAD even, even compare the 1/8th mile traps, the cars are just similar....


Explain times results? I don't think I need to explain the physics of it since we can measure it.

[///M3weee...]

So a grandsport traps 117, a Z51 traps 115-116, the grandsport is an LS3 (well, with a dry sump system, still just 430 hp), and the Z51 is an LS2 with 400 hp.

TT Stage 2 M3's trap, what? 115 according to Acostillo (so say plus or minus a few mph, in line with C6 corvettes no?). http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1309967

Trap speeds taken from stock designation cars on drag times.com
http://www.dragtimes.com/Chevrolet--Corvette-Drag-Racing.html?resultpage=10


So if anything, I'd say the Vette should be DEAD even, even compare the 1/8th mile traps, the cars are just similar....


Explain times results? I don't think I need to explain the physics of it since we can measure it.

Thanks for this Quicksilver, this is some good info here.

The vette and my set up sounds about right to me.

[turbo325ii]

It sounds about right for your porker e36 lol. I still think you should have pulled on him, but who knows, he may have pulleys and a tune... Hard to say.

[chikinhed]

I'm running a GT35R on a TT kit and was able to pull on a GTR with bolt ons and GT3 Porsches at my last track day. I was at 17psi at the time. There was a corvette there but he was in the intermediate run group so I didn't get to have a go with him.

[Quicksilver328i]

The key here, is to remember he was only running 13 psi. And it appears his hardware could handle a whole bunch more. This is still impressive considering the differences between a C6 and an E36.

[Z3speed4me]

Humm you pulled on a c6 right!
What's your afr's at 13 psi?
I may have a boost leak...
Do you break lose in 3rd off a roll by chance?

A)C6 yes... a C5 would be a waste of time, I'd like to with a c5 z06, as thats almost the same as a normal C6.
B)AFR at 12psi, like 11.2.-11.3, I dip into the 10.9-10.8 range at 15psi
C)Depending on how good the road surface is I may spin a little at 4k'ish in 3rd gear, but it still hooks up unlike 2nd (what kind of tires do you have?)

At 15psi this car is definitely over 450 on a dynojet, but by how much I don't know I have yet to try anything beyond my 13psi pull on an autodyn.

[///M3weee...]

A)C6 yes... a C5 would be a waste of time, I'd like to with a c5 z06, as thats almost the same as a normal C6.
B)AFR at 12psi, like 11.2.-11.3, I dip into the 10.9-10.8 range at 15psi
C)Depending on how good the road surface is I may spin a little at 4k'ish in 3rd gear, but it still hooks up unlike 2nd (what kind of tires do you have?)

At 15psi this car is definitely over 450 on a dynojet, but by how much I don't know I have yet to try anything beyond my 13psi pull on an autodyn.

A) check
B) check (guessing nick tuned it on the safe side for god reason)
C) Yeah, I'm the same, I was going up an incline and got a a little squirly in third. I have BF Goodies GForce KDW 255/35/18 but with H&R which are stiff.

[MikeE36]

I would think you should be destroying a C6 if it was indeed stock and traps ~115 mph.

Hell my car traps 118 mph @ 10psi on the wastegate spring (with a T3 .63 A/R 6262, very similar to a GT35R)

You're running more boost than that, and on a great turbo. Should trap 120+ and walk a C6 pretty handily.

P.S. 80 F is not hot. Last few days are the first time it's been below 100 F here lately... :help

-Mike

[Def]

I'd think you'd leave a C6 behind pretty good if you're running well. C6 Z06s are barely faster than my car from "a roll" (i.e. on track), and I'm running 14 psi on track with a little 4 banger with a much smaller turbo. I seem to be a hair quicker than the average "kinda close to stock C6" in a straightline.


Buddy of mine has a Z51 C6 and is a crazy SOB on the track, so naturally we always find each other and "the chase starts" as they say. He is faster than me once I shift into 5th due to the aero drag of my wing/splitter and his nice .2x Cd comes into play, but up to 130 mph in 4th we are dead even. I think he has an intake and exhaust and maybe a tune.

[raoke]

I'm surprised there's not more mention of what wheel/tire setups you have going and perhaps suspension and bushings; traction should be worth mentioning.

Do you have pictures of your setup?

[Quicksilver328i]

Traction was ignored when I brought it up.

Those of you stating he should pull, any timeslips from your cars? Acostillo was the closest I could find to a stock tts2, but I'd rather see an east coast track too, just to make sure its not an issue of low DA's.

I'm building an FC for NASA, will run with stockish c5 z06, with 310 wheel, the HP difference is in weight and aero (no surface area on an fc lol).

[Jim M3]

I have run against many C5 and C6 Corvettes at Road America and have yet to be unimpressed with the speed these cars generate with seemingly less HP. As stated aerodynamics are a big factor for these cars, and they have huge tires on them for traction.

Out of corners the combination of the torque and wide tires gets them going very quickly. If I didn't hate all of the associations that come with a Corvette I would own one. Even stock C5 Z06's are incredible cars on the track.

A C6 Z06 can walk most cars at the track, even new GT3's, a C6 LS3 is no slouch and it is very rare that they aren't modified.

[Z3speed4me]

Those of you stating he should pull, any timeslips from your cars? Acostillo was the closest I could find to a stock tts2, but I'd rather see an east coast track too, just to make sure its not an issue of low DA's.

Haven't gotten to the track yet myself... but the closest comparison I can throw out there which would be similar to my own car... granted he has a 8:5 motor which will drop power a little and I have 9:1

Rukman's car on wastegate on original setup (which I basically have now)

Street Tires
0.98 kg/cm2 = 13.92psi.
Temp: 41F
Barometric press: 30.31

R/T 1.026
60' = 2.294
330 = 5.647
1/8 = 8.249
MPH = 94.56
1000 = 10.483
1/4 = 12.333
MPH = 122.66

[BoostedBlack330]

The Vette was probably modded. Or maybe you weren't at full boost and you raced for half a gear? lol, thats not a race and there could be a MILLION reasons why for HALF A GEAR you were even.

Did he have anything aftermarket on the car at all? Were the windows tinted? (small indicator though) Did the exhaust tail pipes look larger? Did the car seem louder than normal for vettes?

[Quicksilver328i]

Ok, so he picked up 1 more mph from the 1/8th to the 1/4 than Acostillo. You're point that the E30 rear suspension launches better and allows for a better 1/8th mile trap is noted.

I don't have the figures, but I'd also bet the M-coupes have less frontal area and I know they weigh less (by about 200 lbs!).

Ok, so E36 M3 with TTS2, should trap mid-high teens in the 1/4 is what I'm gathering. Please understand what I'm saying about the launch, the E36 isn't getting traction off the line like the M-coupe can, its just a direct advantage to the older suspension design.

[///M3weee...]

I'm surprised there's not more mention of what wheel/tire setups you have going and perhaps suspension and bushings; traction should be worth mentioning.

This is of a roll in 4th from 4k until readline. Traction is out of the issue. If anything we should be discussing areodynamics and weight which at that point isn't going to make THAT much of a difference considering momentum somewhat "neutralizes" weight. But to answer your question, I'm running 3.15, Quaife, 18x10 255/35/18 BFG KDW2, poly TAB, H&R coils.

Do you have pictures of your setup?

I don't but the above mods. As far as engine, built with Pauter, JE 9.0:1 static. M50, TT stage 2, Gt3582r, full 3", humm I think that's about it that would affect power.


Traction was ignored when I brought it up.

Those of you stating he should pull, any timeslips from your cars? Acostillo was the closest I could find to a stock tts2, but I'd rather see an east coast track too, just to make sure its not an issue of low DA's.

I'm building an FC for NASA, will run with stockish c5 z06, with 310 wheel, the HP difference is in weight and aero (no surface area on an fc lol).

I've never taken the car to the strip. Straight street car but I should get it dynoed soon.


The Vette was probably modded. Or maybe you weren't at full boost and you raced for half a gear? lol, thats not a race and there could be a MILLION reasons why for HALF A GEAR you were even.

Did he have anything aftermarket on the car at all? Were the windows tinted? (small indicator though) Did the exhaust tail pipes look larger? Did the car seem louder than normal for vettes?

Not a race really isn't the point here but racing from 4th @ 4k until redline will get you a pretty good idea. If you're dead even in 4th until redline (3.15) , then you can get a good idea of the two cars. If I was making more power, I would have obviously began to pull away and vice versa... 4k until readline is a"short" race yet long at the same time. I was definitely at full boost at 4k with my set up.

I've been around cars for a long time and sure he could have had mods but really doubt it. He had tinted windows but no other exterior mods not even exhaust and that's one of the first things you do with a V8, but who knows. He could have had many bolt ons except exhaust.

[BoostedBlack330]

Not a race really isn't the point here but racing from 4th @ 4k until redline will get you a pretty good idea. If you're dead even in 4th until redline (3.15) , then you can get a good idea of the two cars. If I was making more power, I would have obviously began to pull away and vice versa... 4k until readline is a"short" race yet long at the same time. I was definitely at full boost at 4k with my set up.

I've been around cars for a long time and sure he could have had mods but really doubt it. He had tinted windows but no other exterior mods not even exhaust and that's one of the first things you do with a V8, but who knows. He could have had many bolt ons except exhaust.

He could of easily just had an intake and tune, none of which you would really hear nor see. Sometimes people do not like to do exhaust and make their car louder, run of the norm on the 335i platform.

All I'm saying is that there could have been a little dirt, sand, rock, bad pavement in your lane (something as stupid as that)....etc.....to say that 1.5 seconds seconds of driving didn't show you put any length on him. Given the weight and power and aerodynamica of his car aerodynamics takes over and weight goes out the window once over 80mph and he is def winning in that category..........

[milKt]

Are you guys still debating about which car SHOULD be faster?
1) TT Stage 2.625 :eek:
or
2) C6 Vette with one bolt on header and the only the upper plenum ported. :eyecrazy

No offense, but after all the "scientific" meanderings, measurements and meddling, it was an even race. It might be a driver's race. There are too many variables and not enough TT cars on the strip to even care.

Is there a KILL section? :stickoutt

Good runs OP.

[///M3weee...]

Are you guys still debating about which car SHOULD be faster?
1) TT Stage 2.625 :eek:
or
2) C6 Vette with one bolt on header and the only the upper plenum ported. :eyecrazy

No offense, but after all the "scientific" meanderings, measurements and meddling, it was an even race. It might be a driver's race. There are too many variables and not enough TT cars on the strip to even care.

Is there a KILL section? :stickoutt

Good runs OP.

What you're doing seems to be called projecting especially reading into the wording and the way you phrased things ie "no offense" "even care". I don't think there was any scientific meanderings by me, mostly just answering peoples questions. Other post my have turned into a which car is faster but that was not my intention.
If you read between the lines, I was if anything implying that my car is not running properly and not comparing which car is faster.
But hey, I guess I'll take the credit for the "good runs" thanks :thumbup:

[Z3speed4me]

I wasn't exactly trying to make a point... just stating a car with a very similar setup at 14psi and the same turbo and it's 1/4 trap. There wasn't anything I was trying to prove here, just show one of the only TT cars that is documented with a 1/4 time.

Ill get there one day if it makes everyone happy. Just waiting for a rental I can get to.

Don't know why this has turned more into a ridiculous argument than a discussion at this point.

[GG///M3]

What does a TT stage 2.5 kit trap on a standard non lightened car?

Here is what I trapped with a custom setup gt35 .82 t3 Trm tuned setup with 10psi 93 octane.

http://i835.photobucket.com/albums/zz279/gjon777/1run.jpg

[BadBoostedBmwM3]

^^^^^with 10psi??? Your car must be lightened.

[GG///M3]

^^^^^with 10psi??? Your car must be lightened.

No sir not lightened(spare tire, and over a half tank of fuel). Just a good tune, and a properly built setup.

[BadBoostedBmwM3]

No sir not lightened(spare tire, and over a half tank of fuel). Just a good tune, and a properly built setup.

Well, that is definitely "properly built setup" IMO. I would think that you are around 425whp with that setup at 10psi. What is your static CR?

[GG///M3]

Well, that is definitely "properly built setup" IMO. I would think that you are around 425whp with that setup at 10psi. What is your static CR?

Well I'm running Trm 8.5.1 pistons with a .70mls. I would guess I was at about 400-425whp at 10psi. With that tune at 19.6psi it made 500whp. That was with a delta and fin intercooler setup.

[Z3speed4me]

Where did you get a delta plate IC? I have "heard / read" they are better than bar & plate... for cooling, weight, and efficiency...

I need to replace my tube and fin setup sometime soon as my IAT's are higher than I would prefer.

[rt turbo]

Well I'm running Trm 8.5.1 pistons with a .70mls. I would guess I was at about 400-425whp at 10psi. With that tune at 19.6psi it made 500whp. That was with a delta and fin intercooler setup.
SO, you were only gaining 10 hp per lb of boost above 10 psi? Is that just because the tune was optimized for the lower boost? Some of the local cars were seeing 500 whp at 15-17 psi, and 570 at 21-22 psi.

[Sniz]

Where did you get a delta plate IC? I have "heard / read" they are better than bar & plate... for cooling, weight, and efficiency...

I need to replace my tube and fin setup sometime soon as my IAT's are higher than I would prefer.

I need to do that too.

As far as a run against a C6, you never know. Only a few mods and they will trap well into the 120's. A few more, they will hit 130's. they are incredible engine's. Wish my e36 had one in it actually.

a cam/header/intake/tune ls3 in a 3100lb e36 would be an animal.


as a point of reference, I ran a s/c c6 ls3 about a month ago when I was on 16psi and meth. It was close, but he pulled in 4th on me, I have a huge boost leak at the compressor housing and its tapering off into the high 14's in the higher gears/rpm's.

even if it wasnt tapering, i'm sure a s/c ls3 is making more power and a more useable powerband than me.

[GG///M3]

Where did you get a delta plate IC? I have "heard / read" they are better than bar & plate... for cooling, weight, and efficiency...

I need to replace my tube and fin setup sometime soon as my IAT's are higher than I would prefer.

I have 1 for sale if you are interested. Its 24x12x3 with elbows already welded to it.


SO, you were only gaining 10 hp per lb of boost above 10 psi? Is that just because the tune was optimized for the lower boost? Some of the local cars were seeing 500 whp at 15-17 psi, and 570 at 21-22 psi.

Well my car wasn't tuned in person, and we ran out of time with the dyne shop. Also 10whp with remember the car being warmed up from many pulls. I believe at 17psi I was at 475whp. These runs were on the old school dynojet that is supposed to read more like a mustang dyne from what Dcvee was told by the shop owner. Here is the dyne sheet.

http://i835.photobucket.com/albums/zz279/gjon777/dynorun.jpg

Edit psi on the dyno read 2 psi higher according to the shop owner.

[Z3speed4me]

I have 1 for sale if you are interested. Its 24x12x3 with elbows already welded to it.


Don't know if it would fit my car well... space limitations are a little different up front on the z chassis than the m3; I have to measure my available width and see that unit's elbow angle to ensure it will fit. Kinda hard without seeing the IC physically probably :(

[GG///M3]

Back to the topic here is I against a ls3 vette. I was raped off the line, but I did have a greater trap speed. The vettte hauled a$$ off the line and trapped 116 or something like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYNzpV7iSls

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7tX5Qfn3ZM&feature=related

[Z3speed4me]

You went into 5th???
What dif do you have, with a 3.23 4th should top out a nip below 130, like 127-129 depending on tire size at 7000rpm

[GG///M3]

I was a wee bit nervous during that first run, but with that said I'm running a 3.15lsd with 245/45/17 tires which would put me at 137mph in 4th gear at about 7-7100rpms according to the diffsonline calculator.

[rt turbo]

Well my car wasn't tuned in person, and we ran out of time with the dyne shop. Also 10whp with remember the car being warmed up from many pulls. I believe at 17psi I was at 475whp. These runs were on the old school dynojet that is supposed to read more like a mustang dyne from what Dcvee was told by the shop owner. Here is the dyne sheet.

http://i835.photobucket.com/albums/zz279/gjon777/dynorun.jpg


What happened to your afrs from 3800-4800 rpm? did it loose signal or go pig rich? Im used to seeing the gt35-based turbos have more of a plateau and have more meat under that general area. though, 350 wtq at 3500 and 450 at 4000 is pretty damn stout!:eek:

[GG///M3]

What happened to your afrs from 3800-4800 rpm? did it loose signal or go pig rich? Im used to seeing the gt35-based turbos have more of a plateau and have more meat under that general area. though, 350 wtq at 3500 and 450 at 4000 is pretty damn stout!:eek:

Well Trm was working on the tune on the dyne remotely (but ran out of time thanks to the owner of the shop not letting us use the dyne for a longer period of time), so not time to make more corrections. I'm sure in person it would have been cleaned up nicely. On the street it hit a lot harder the on the dyno. The cutout exhaust does help spool the turbo very nicely.

[Z3speed4me]

That car did sound MEAN last time I heard it with the cutout sometime last year...to the point I thought of having one thrown in just to scare little children, spool increase would also be nice though since it seems your tq ramps up a lot quicker than mine does :(

[GG///M3]

That car did sound MEAN last time I heard it with the cutout sometime last year...to the point I thought of having one thrown in just to scare little children, spool increase would also be nice though since it seems your tq ramps up a lot quicker than mine does :(

There is nothing like straight flow right out of the turbo for when its needed most on the track, or a run in with a human in a super car who thinks they are special.

[rt turbo]

^Indeed!

[Sniz]

There is nothing like straight flow right out of the turbo for when its needed most on the track, or a run in with a human in a super car who thinks they are special.

I need me some of that!

[GG///M3]

Forget special 2-3 mufflers for bettering flowing go cutout, and use only when needed. http://www.dmhperformance.com/ecutout.htm:D


P.S Max Psi sells cut-outs as well.