ar design turbo kit update - Quickest/Fastest stock longblock E36 S50?

[ar design]

Our E36 turbo kit is coming along nicely. Putting as many miles as possible on it before we release.

Went back to the track last night with our E36 M3 test car. Has a stock S50 with 245,000 miles on it, only change is ARP head studs. Elring head gasket.

11.7 @ 127mph on 12psi of boost and race gas, with a base tune and pump gas timing curve. Heat cycled/almost corded road racing tires, and a 2.0 60ft..... Mickey Thompsons are on order for next week.

Has anyone gone quicker or faster on a stock motor?

EDIT: Almost forgot, we are at 5300ft of altitude, and the DA last night was 8400ft....

[Z3speed4me]

12psi and 127 trap??? What turbo is that using... sounds like >500whp

[ar design]

A trick 62mm billet unit ;)

[milKt]

Did you EVER show us the finished product of your turbo manifold?

I recall that someone was willing to help. :)

[ar design]

I think we posted some on Facebook.... Let me see if I can dig some up.

[BavarianLove]

Is this t4?

[M3ANMUG]

Is this t4?

Yeah, give me a couple minutes, I will post up pictures of the manifold/turbo.

[ar design]

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/253772_10150210843240983_542825982_7673284_2208979 _n.jpg

[Captain]

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/253772_10150210843240983_542825982_7673284_2208979 _n.jpg

more.

[M3ANMUG]

more.

We spend money going fast... Not on cameras :stickoutt

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/3076/img0943ji.jpg

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/1318/img0949j.jpg

[jonesmechanical]

Lets see some dyno's of this beast. More information on the turbo. You have to be making over 600 wheel to make those numbers assuming you have a stock weight car, and to do it at our altitude, or higher (loosing 2-3 psi of effeciency) you have to be making that kind of power at 12 psi.

Unless its a monster 42r (likely not even that) or larger, I just don't see it happening at that level of boost. The numbers just don't add up. The the area under the curve with a larger turbo would also work against you also.

I'm not a hater. Just get us some more information. Beautiful manifold.

Maybe you have boost creep issues, and you just don't know it :).

Either that, or your reading the wrong land on the time slip. 105 mph would be about right for a 400+ whp stock weight M3 at 12 psi at your altitude.

Enlighten us please ardesign.

[milKt]

We spend money going fast... Not on cameras :stickoutt


With good pics (showing us flow character) and manifolds that perform well,
you can MAKE money going fast.

Nice manifold BTW...have I named this one?

[M3ANMUG]

Lets see some dyno's of this beast. More information on the turbo. You have to be making over 600 wheel to make those numbers assuming you have a stock weight car, and to do it at our altitude, or higher (loosing 2-3 psi of effeciency) you have to be making that kind of power at 12 psi.

Unless its a monster 42r (likely not even that) or larger, I just don't see it happening at that level of boost. The numbers just don't add up. The the area under the curve with a larger turbo would also work against you also.

I'm not a hater. Just get us some more information. Beautiful manifold.

Maybe you have boost creep issues, and you just don't know it :).

Either that, or your reading the wrong land on the time slip. 105 mph would be about right for a 400+ whp stock weight M3 at 12 psi at your altitude.

Enlighten us please ardesign.

Car has bucket fronts and no backs (Harnesses) so it is a little lighter, believe it was at 3,050lbs (just under 1/4 tank). Boost gauge reads steady at 12-13 psi Full manual boost gauge so reads 100% directly from source (Turkey neck).

Turbo is a 62mm Bullseye Power T4 open exhaust housing with the billet batmowheel. Tubular topmount obviously. 2.5" Hotside plumbing,24x12x3 FMIC, 3" Cold Side plumbing. 3" Downpipe and full catless/mufflerless exhaust out the rear. No boost controller, running straight off Tial 44mm with spring

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/262121_229717950394572_134536043246097_786048_7884 729_n.jpg

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/270796_229717913727909_134536043246097_786046_7137 172_n.jpg

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/270564_229717940394573_134536043246097_786047_8383 131_n.jpg

[jonesmechanical]

Wow, its a magic compressor.

You have to agree, if its got this time slip, the thing is making huge power for 12 psi. Post up your dyno's, we would all love to see the magic.

That is one crazy looking compressor wheel. Help me out here, how does it compare to a precision or garrett turbo as far as sizing?

[ar design]

Its a big 35R. The time slip is real, quite a number of people saw the car run at Bandimere. Locals are welcome to stop by and see the car, get a ride etc.

We have never been on the dyno with the car. Dan from Miller will be down here shortly to tune it.... :)

[bubela]

If this is legit, what's the point of dyno numbers? I'm kinda tired of dyno numbers because so many factors go in to altering them. Us guessing what the numbers are seems just as good as actually seeing them. Then, people go "oh, it was on x dyno, with x smoothing and x correction and x this" Well, X THAT! (edit: I guess looking at the curve is worth it)

That 127 trap is hard to replicate/falsify. The car is fast, especially for a (essentially) stock motor (high compression). Congrats!

[ar design]

Thank you sir!

[Josh///M3]

Engine bay pics Andrew. Come on :D

[Hova]

I think that is one of the greatest tables I have ever seen.

[davidtm5]

do able with around 450 whp
i done it before with gt35r 17psi 11.6 at 128mph

[jonesmechanical]

do able with around 450 whp
i done it before with gt35r 17psi 11.6 at 128mph

So, 450 wheel at 12 psi. I guess I could see that happening, especially with stock compression. Very interesting. I would love to see a dyno more for the curve than anything else, not to verify xxx power out put.

That was my original plan with my first M coupe, leave the compression stock, run a small A/R on the 4088r and run around 15 or so psi with water injection. Shoot for 500 wheel.


I just think that it would take more than 12 psi on about any turbo to make a M3 trap high 120's. i guess it does. 13 psi eh?

[ar design]

Yup, 12psi, stock motor with 250k, and some ARP head studs, Elring head gasket.

[Colby Colbs]

Don't worry no matter what you guys do or say everyone here hates bullseye turbos and dyno sheets mean ALL... Therfore you guys have to be over 600rwhp like the pros have said and it IS only magic lol

[Robstah]

So, 450 wheel at 12 psi. I guess I could see that happening, especially with stock compression. Very interesting. I would love to see a dyno more for the curve than anything else, not to verify xxx power out put.

That was my original plan with my first M coupe, leave the compression stock, run a small A/R on the 4088r and run around 15 or so psi with water injection. Shoot for 500 wheel.


I just think that it would take more than 12 psi on about any turbo to make a M3 trap high 120's. i guess it does. 13 psi eh?

Someone is jealous.

[stanksbeamen]

Good job! Is race gas all you run, which race gas do you use? Hopefully your kit will be able to run pump fuel as well as not a lot of people want to run race gas 24/7.

[jonesmechanical]

Who wouldn't be jealous of a the record holder of a stock block/compression 1/4 mile time slip? I would feel fortunate to pull that e.t and trap speed in my coupe on my 40r on 91 pump gas and 19 psi. I got no problem with saying this M3 could be faster than my car running a smaller turbo AND 1/3 less boost. I'm just trying to make sense of it.

[rt turbo]

You all have to remember the BIGEST common denominator here... HE IS STOCK COMPRESSION!


Still looks like this turbo is making some pay-dirt with only 12-13psi on 10.5:1 compression though! But at 9:1 it would likely need 15-16 psi to do the same damage. So, it does make sence, and it does appear that at a glance this turbo is making a good deal more power than a gt35r.

I may be looking into this turbo instead of the 3586.. AR, do you know if they make anything in the 3586 realm? I may be interested in seeing if a gt35r variant is capable of 700 whp.

[flexer]

Man I am all confused. The boost keeps being said as 12 psi, then 13 psi, then it jumps between 12-13 psi......

On my car I pick up 18 whp per pound of boost, on a 2.0 L. On larger displacement motors with high compression it is not un heard of to pick up 25 whp per pound of boost.

And Robstah.....I'm jealous of any car that can trap 127. What did your car trap again? Hopefully above 127 or I guess your jealous too!

Here I will start the list...

Jealousy List:

1. Robstah
2. Flexer

JR

[tlmitf]

Boost is variable, even when fixed ;)

SC's pump a fixed volume of air, when you thin out the air, your boost drops.
With a turbo, you can maintain the boost - but you change the efficiency...

Running stock compression will keep the VE quite high, making turbo sizing different to most other people...

[Z3speed4me]

I know we all hate dyno's due to there being no common ground to compare everyone....but I would like to see the look of the curve... 127 is movin pretty well.

[Sniz]

yeah thats certainly getting down the track very nicely, especially at only 12-13psi. impressive.


weird lookin turbo!!

[ar design]

Best part - car picks up 30mph on the back half! :)

We are running it on pump gas at 12psi on the street, but race fuel at the track just in case, since its untuned as of yet. Timing curve still for pump gas/base tune, however, so not that much to be

Mickey Thompsons on order, shooting for 11.50s and 130mph next Wednesday! Tires will hopefully make it here by Tuesday so we have time to mount.

I will double check with Critter, but I believe the boost is 12psi, not 13. Car has zero creep at 12psi.

[M3ANMUG]

Don't worry no matter what you guys do or say everyone here hates bullseye turbos and dyno sheets mean ALL... Therfore you guys have to be over 600rwhp like the pros have said and it IS only magic lol
Like they say. Air goes in, spins something, witchcraft happens, and you go fast!


Good job! Is race gas all you run, which race gas do you use? Hopefully your kit will be able to run pump fuel as well as not a lot of people want to run race gas 24/7.
You can run pump gas just fine. I run 91 octane on the street and have been through the gears a few times (Not like it hooks up anyway). I run race gas at the track simply due to the fact that this motor has a LOT of miles on it and when you are doing runs back to back to back basically (I got 9 runs in, in a 2.5 hour period) the temps will get high. I want this motor to last a bit longer and go faster, so I would rather not risk detonation with 91.


Who wouldn't be jealous of a the record holder of a stock block/compression 1/4 mile time slip? I would feel fortunate to pull that e.t and trap speed in my coupe on my 40r on 91 pump gas and 19 psi. I got no problem with saying this M3 could be faster than my car running a smaller turbo AND 1/3 less boost. I'm just trying to make sense of it.
PSi is somewhat irrelevant. The velocity and the efficiency is the main factors.



I know we all hate dyno's due to there being no common ground to compare everyone....but I would like to see the look of the curve... 127 is movin pretty well.
We will try to get one soon if we can get the Miller guys down here! Believe me, I'm itching to have one of those cool pieces of paper that says my car goes fast too :stickoutt

[Colby Colbs]

My car went 11.7 at 130mph with a s368 aka 68mm turbo not that I need to tell you guys about bullseye turbos... oh yeah it was on 10psi and 93oct on a street tune for safety, thick mls and studs on a 3.6L in a e30 m3.

That turbo is now on my 99 m3 seeing as it has been proven to be reliable unlike some new techknoledgy I tryed to run so I could give the forum feedback...

Wondering what a simple BatMo wheel would do for the 68... maybe ill give bill or dave a shout.
Glad to see you guys having some solid fun! Keep it up!

[M3ANMUG]

My car went 11.7 at 130mph with a s368 aka 68mm turbo not that I need to tell you guys about bullseye turbos... oh yeah it was on 10psi and 93oct on a street tune for safety, thick mls and studs on a 3.6L in a e30 m3.

That turbo is now on my 99 m3 seeing as it has been proven to be reliable unlike some new techknoledgy I tryed to run so I could give the forum feedback...

Wondering what a simple BatMo wheel would do for the 68... maybe ill give bill or dave a shout.
Glad to see you guys having some solid fun! Keep it up!

Yeah... There is a reason tons of Supra guys are running these wheels.

[Z3speed4me]

That turbo is now on my 99 m3 seeing as it has been proven to be reliable unlike some new techknoledgy I tryed to run so I could give the forum feedback...

Yea it was unfortunate when I heard that news... I was thinking of going the same route, but now that thought is totally out of my head.

[ar design]

So we are close to the record, but havent hit it yet I take it?

[Z3speed4me]

I didn't know we were keeping records on these things...

On that note, is there a record for fastest September 1998 production M coupe in estoril blue with black leather and sunroof??

[Bimmerman535i]

I've ridden in this car when it had a smaller turbo and have seen it since with the larger (current) one.

Well done, Critter and AR!

[mike radowski]

So we are close to the record, but havent hit it yet I take it?

I made over 600 back in 06 on a stock S52 with a completely stock s52: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=561691&highlight=meth

I never ran it at that power. It did go 11.6@117mph on pump gas no meth when it was a stock motor.

Nice times and trap speed!

[ar design]

Thanks Mike! Really excited to see what happens next week with slicks and a little moar boosts! :)

[BadBoostedBmwM3]

Very nice AR design. 127mph on stock motor is nothing to complain about. I know its on race gas, but still very nice.

Do you think it would be possible to run the 12-13psi on pump gas at a place closer to sea level (i.e Louisville)??

[pbonsalb]

For how long?

[FastrTHNu]

...what's the point of dyno numbers? I'm kinda tired of dyno numbers because so many factors go in to altering them. Us guessing what the numbers are seems just as good as actually seeing them. Then, people go "oh, it was on x dyno, with x smoothing and x correction and x this" Well, X THAT! (edit: I guess looking at the curve is worth it)

I need You to talk to all the people inquiring about My car for sale.
ALL I ever hear is "did You get a dyno?"

Nice work OP.

[ar design]

Very nice AR design. 127mph on stock motor is nothing to complain about. I know its on race gas, but still very nice.

Do you think it would be possible to run the 12-13psi on pump gas at a place closer to sea level (i.e Louisville)??

We run it on pump 91 all day on the street at 12psi. And at the track, it was the exact same pump gas timing map.

[Colby Colbs]

Yea it was unfortunate when I heard that news... I was thinking of going the same route, but now that thought is totally out of my head.

Saving lives day by day... Pm me ur cell number and ill send you the break in results video...

Also, since the supra guys are our only testament, ill gladly do the compressor upgrade to show transparency either way it goes...

[mike radowski]

We run it on pump 91 all day on the street at 12psi. And at the track, it was the exact same pump gas timing map.

FYI, 12 psi with that turbo, 91 octane, and stock compression is pushing it.

I was seeing knock at 10psi with 93 octane on the stock s52. With race gas or pump/meth it is a different story.

[M3ANMUG]

FYI, 12 psi with that turbo, 91 octane, and stock compression is pushing it.

I was seeing knock at 10psi with 93 octane on the stock s52. With race gas or pump/meth it is a different story.

Yeah, would rather not chance it. Just waiting for E85. I don't really get into boost on the street, haven't really done a full pull on the street except on Friday nights when I take her out and she still has race gas from the track in the tank.

[Elusive303]

I've ridden in this car when it had a smaller turbo and have seen it since with the larger (current) one.

Well done, Critter and AR!

So it is Critter's car? He told me about it when I saw him at Bandi a couple of months back. Glad to hear it's running and running well!

[BadBoostedBmwM3]

We run it on pump 91 all day on the street at 12psi. And at the track, it was the exact same pump gas timing map.

I understand that. I was just asking what do you think the effects would be closer to see level?

[GG///M3]

Chris great times dude. I still hold the record of the fastest 14 second US spec e36 m3 turbo. :stickoutt

[ar design]

I understand that. I was just asking what do you think the effects would be closer to see level?

We will include a base map, but every car will need to be dyno tuned with the WAR chip. With 93 octane and a good tune, I dont really see an issue at 12psi.

[biglou911]

so its the war chip you guys are using?
how big of a injectors are you runing?

[ar design]

60lb right now, switching to 100lb ID1000s and E85 shortly here ;)

[jonesmechanical]

60lb right now, switching to 100lb ID1000s and E85 shortly here ;)

Your going to want more fuel than that. Also likely more pump unless your dual already. I just got some 1200 Bosch units through max psi. I already had dual walboros, so I was set. It's amazing how much fueling e85 takes. Your going to want to push the turbo further with e85. It's all but detonation proof.

[rt turbo]

Your going to want more fuel than that. Also likely more pump unless your dual already. I just got some 1200 Bosch units through max psi. I already had dual walboros, so I was set. It's amazing how much fueling e85 takes. Your going to want to push the turbo further with e85. It's all but detonation proof.
those 1000id injectors yield 800whp worth of e85. How much you think his stock compression stock bottom end is ganna handle?

[ar design]

those 1000id injectors yield 800whp worth of e85. How much you think his stock compression stock bottom end is ganna handle?

I'd like to see 650whp. We'll see. I just want to see a 10 sec pass at altitude with a stock motor.

[rt turbo]

I'd like to see 650whp. We'll see. I just want to see a 10 sec pass at altitude with a stock motor.
thats on borrowed time, and alot to ask of the stock DME at that. But you may get one pass. BTW, you shouldnt need 650whp to run 10s.

[ar design]

thats on borrowed time, and alot to ask of the stock DME at that. But you may get one pass. BTW, you shouldnt need 650whp to run 10s.

Oh I am well aware.... Motor has 250k, about to get torn down either way, so don't really care. 99% for bragging rights. :buttrock

[EBM3WSNC]

shoot for 700whp, see if it blows then build it!

[ar design]

You never know! :)

Going to build a stroker this winter......

[jonesmechanical]

those 1000id injectors yield 800whp worth of e85. How much you think his stock compression stock bottom end is ganna handle?

When talking to Mike Radowski and that 800 whp power level, he said that 1200's would be borderline. 650 wheel is a challenge for the 044 on regular 91 pump, duals would do it nicely.

Stock compression 10.5:1 I think would be great for e85. The main issue here is going to be the limit of the stock rods, which have been seen to fail in the 550+ power range. Some have gotten more out of stock rods, but not enough have done it to really know.

The Bosch units were very inexpensive, unlike the ID's. I actually think that mikes 2000cc injectors he is running on his crazy build are not ID's.


thats on borrowed time, and alot to ask of the stock DME at that. But you may get one pass. BTW, you shouldnt need 650whp to run 10s.


RT, what kind of power levels are you seeing on the E85 at what duty cycles on E85? There are not very many running e85 yet, as I am converting to flex fuel, it would be great to see some actual percentages of duty cycle in relation to power level and injector size.

With a trap speed in the high 120's, in theory, one could break into the 10's. Add a bit more power, and he is there. Thats why I am curious what kind of power this thing is making on stock compression at 12 psi. It would seem that he would be in the 500 wheel range with that trap speed.

Very exciting, I love it when someone is looking to push the mechanical limits of a setup that is unique. Makes for a good bookmark.


You never know! :)

Going to build a stroker this winter......


How does that work? Is there available deck height on a s50 for more stroke?

[ar design]

How does that work? Is there available deck height on a s50 for more stroke?

??

[rt turbo]

Oh I am well aware.... Motor has 250k, about to get torn down either way, so don't really care. 99% for bragging rights. :buttrock
However, when these things let go at those power levels its not typically just ring lands. Look for rods to be thrown trashing everything in the motor. THese stock rods are weak. I think both John and George were lucky when testing the limits and only bent them. Most of the time you throw a rod. Be prepared for the possibility to replace everything just in case.

Anywho, I love seeing people test the limits, so not trying to discurage you too much because Id love to see some big numbers!

[M3ANMUG]

However, when these things let go at those power levels its not typically just ring lands. Look for rods to be thrown trashing everything in the motor. THese stock rods are weak. I think both John and George were lucky when testing the limits and only bent them. Most of the time you throw a rod. Be prepared for the possibility to replace everything just in case.

Anywho, I love seeing people test the limits, so not trying to discurage you too much because Id love to see some big numbers!

Yeah, I hope either the head gasket goes so it can be back on the road a couple hours, or all 6 pistons decide to abandon ship at the same time. That would be fun.

[mike radowski]

When talking to Mike Radowski and that 800 whp power level, he said that 1200's would be borderline.
I said the 1000's would be maxed out at the power level you were looking for on E85. 1200's should be plenty.


The Bosch units were very inexpensive, unlike the ID's. I actually think that mikes 2000cc injectors he is running on his crazy build are not ID's.


Mine are the same exact injectors that ID uses, just purchased through Tom at Driven Innovations.

[ar design]

Same base injector, but the modifications performed to the injectors and the way they are flow matched dynamically is different.

[BMWFanatic]

any updates or make it back to the track??:evil2

[GG///M3]

I'd like to see 650whp. We'll see. I just want to see a 10 sec pass at altitude with a stock motor.

Chris what kind of power do you think its making at the moment?

[jfdmas]

hey guys, I have a personal best of 10.6@135 (see sig slip, I know its outta date) on my stock block M52 however it was with a .140 gasket and roughly 550whp. Keep it up and get some slicks. anything 10's at that elevation would be truly impressive.

[97mreaper]

11.7 is def doable I had a spa7000m turbo running on 15lbs making 444hp 440trq with a nick g tune and ran a 11.7@124 with a 2.1 60ft and was pretty consistent I have time slips also

[rt turbo]

11.7 is def doable I had a spa7000m turbo running on 15lbs making 444hp 440trq with a nick g tune and ran a 11.7@124 with a 2.1 60ft and was pretty consistent I have time slips also
what? :help run-on. write sentences much?

[ar design]

any updates or make it back to the track??:evil2

Last week went 11.50 at 126. Only change was slicks, same 12psi. Back again tonight ;)

[flexer]

those 1000id injectors yield 800whp worth of e85. How much you think his stock compression stock bottom end is ganna handle?

MOD"s PLEASE FLAG THIS FOR BAD INFORMATION!!!


HEHEHE....RT your the man, but that is some bad info. Then again...maybe I am the fool. Maybe your running a base fuel pressure of 85 psi or something stupid which is why you said that number......

but if you stick with the stock fuel pressure of 38-40 psi......1000cc injectors on E85 are only good for around 600-650.

JR

[rt turbo]

MOD"s PLEASE FLAG THIS FOR BAD INFORMATION!!!


HEHEHE....RT your the man, but that is some bad info. Then again...maybe I am the fool. Maybe your running a base fuel pressure of 85 psi or something stupid which is why you said that number......

but if you stick with the stock fuel pressure of 38-40 psi......1000cc injectors on E85 are only good for around 600-650.

JR
Maybe on an Evo. Ive seen a supra on E85 run about 750 whp on the ID1000's. His injector duty was at 95%. So I extrapolated a bit that with higher base pressure 800whp is possible. Although, Im only wanting about 650 whp so for me the 1000's should do. I have typically had to run smaller injectors for the same power level as I did on my Evo, so I can see where you would say they arent large enough for that power. However, I dont typically like to run higher than 90% duty on any injector.

[flexer]

Maybe on an Evo. Ive seen a supra on E85 run about 750 whp on the ID1000's. His injector duty was at 95%. So I extrapolated a bit that with higher base pressure 800whp is possible. Although, Im only wanting about 650 whp so for me the 1000's should do. I have typically had to run smaller injectors for the same power level as I did on my Evo, so I can see where you would say they arent large enough for that power. However, I dont typically like to run higher than 90% duty on any injector.


A see. Let me give you a longer reason why I don't want people taking your response as gospel.

1. Most fuel injector manufacters tell you to never run there injectors over 80% duty cycle or failure can occur. While running the injectors to maybe 85% or 87% I don't see as that big of a deal.....anything over 90% is JUST ASKING FOR IT!

2. Base fuel pressure plays a HUGE part into the actual flow (cc) of an injector. A 1000cc fuel injector is usually rated 1000cc at 40 psi...go look at the same injector at 65 psi and they can be now flowing 1185cc, look at one at 90 psi and they are like 1350cc injectors so that is BIG INFORMATION.

3. MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT RUNNING ACTUAL E85. For instance, there are 3 pumps local to me. Two of them run E70 while the other runs E60, even though all 3 are marked E85. And they change depending on whether its winter or summer so you have to watch that too! If they are only running a low E50 or E60 blend that again will have a HUGE IMPACT.


So I stand by my statement RT........ 1000cc injectors should only be good for around 650 whp @ 38 psi base pressure on E85 @ 80 % duty cycle.

JR

[djborya]

A see. Let me give you a longer reason why I don't want people taking your response as gospel.

1. Most fuel injector manufacters tell you to never run there injectors over 80% duty cycle or failure can occur. While running the injectors to maybe 85% or 87% I don't see as that big of a deal.....anything over 90% is JUST ASKING FOR IT!

2. Base fuel pressure plays a HUGE part into the actual flow (cc) of an injector. A 1000cc fuel injector is usually rated 1000cc at 40 psi...go look at the same injector at 65 psi and they can be now flowing 1185cc, look at one at 90 psi and they are like 1350cc injectors so that is BIG INFORMATION.

3. MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT RUNNING ACTUAL E85. For instance, there are 3 pumps local to me. Two of them run E70 while the other runs E60, even though all 3 are marked E85. And they change depending on whether its winter or summer so you have to watch that too! If they are only running a low E50 or E60 blend that again will have a HUGE IMPACT.


So I stand by my statement RT........ 1000cc injectors should only be good for around 650 whp @ 38 psi base pressure on E85 @ 80 % duty cycle.

JR

Agreed... I have nothing against you rt,its the.wrong info I dont like.if you follow rt'posts you will see a pattern.
B.

[rt turbo]

Agreed... I have nothing against you rt,its the.wrong info I dont like.if you follow rt'posts you will see a pattern.
B.
Boris, I dont think I have a pattern of wrong info at all. maybe my post should have been more specific, but lets face it, most people on here run injectors to their limits-as do some tuners on here. TRM brings their 60 lb injector tunes pretty high-and Ive never seen anyone call them on it. Hell, there was a thread on here not too long ago regarding injector sizing for E85 and 80 Lb injectors for 650-700 whp was being agreed to be ok.

If you are tuning your car, you should know to be monitoring duty cycle. If it gets too high for a comfortable fuel pressure, you are in need of larger injectors.

Now, I havent personally run E85 before, so I should have stated that in hindsight.

[jonesmechanical]

I said the 1000's would be maxed out at the power level you were looking for on E85. 1200's should be plenty.

As always, you have never failed in recommending the right product. As proven in this thread. There is so much mis-information out there, as seen in this thread. One thing about Flexers style of communication is that he isn't afraid to be wrong at all, its all about networking online and finding the science behind the anwsers.




Mine are the same exact injectors that ID uses, just purchased through Tom at Driven Innovations.

They just happen to cost 1/2 as much. How long before the gravy train ends for ID. Maybe their magic touch is really worth the extra dough though. Who knows.




Now, I havent personally run E85 before, so I should have stated that in hindsight.

Whats up with the sig "E85 out the ying yang"?


Boris, I dont think I have a pattern of wrong info at all. maybe my post should have been more specific, but lets face it, most people on here run injectors to their limits-as do some tuners on here.

Most don't do things right. Its like that in every industry I have been involved with. Those that are successful don't believe the masses, and do the homework them selves.

The issue here is, is when you correct someone on a recommendation, specificity goes a long ways to qualify your response. The "I'm right, your wrong" is never a good way to go. Just because XYZ recommends a product to solve ABC issue, doesn't mean its the right solution. Or even if the masses subscribe to the solution, it doesn't mean it right. Especially with engineering a turbo system, designing things simply by the book or by manufacturer recommendations should be a minimum. When in doubt, simply ask the Guru's. Mike is the man. I don't pretend to know any of the information/wisdom he has shared with me over the years.

[rt turbo]

Whats up with the sig "E85 out the ying yang"?


.
Not really sure. I wrote that a long time ago. E85 is the plan in the build right now. Ive been wanting to change that for awihle and never got around to it.

[djborya]

Not really sure. I wrote that a long time ago. E85 is the plan in the build right now. Ive been wanting to change that for awihle and never got around to it.

:lol

[jonesmechanical]

Yeam RT, its a tough decision if you have to go dedicated. Being able to do Flex Fuel is nice because you don't have to worry about the car sitting for a bit (just purge the e85 out with gas). I wouldn't do it if I wasn't able to run both e85 and pump gas. Especially with the E85 being something that could change in cost and availability.

Flexer figured out how to go flex on the AEM unit. Fortunately, I have that option. Its not like my sig is accurate either. I have never dyno'd that power, and the VG34E motor is no done yet for the datsun.

[dRock13]

sounds like good numbers. My Olds, for comparison, will go 11.1 consistently on just motor but traps at 123mph around 6600rpm. The 1.6 60ft might be responsible for that.

[rt turbo]

Yeam RT, its a tough decision if you have to go dedicated. Being able to do Flex Fuel is nice because you don't have to worry about the car sitting for a bit (just purge the e85 out with gas). I wouldn't do it if I wasn't able to run both e85 and pump gas. Especially with the E85 being something that could change in cost and availability.

Flexer figured out how to go flex on the AEM unit. Fortunately, I have that option. Its not like my sig is accurate either. I have never dyno'd that power, and the VG34E motor is no done yet for the datsun.
Its interesting you say this, because I think I have a hold on getting Pro EFI to build me a unit working with the stock DME and can use that flex fuel apparatus. If I dont go this route it will be a major pain to purge, but this car doesnt see much travel and there are E85 places placed just far enough apart in Charlotte that you can get there within 10-15 mins.

With the sig, I had it setup for my build to be, but even that has changed since then. I dont get on here enough anymore to really notice it. My turbo setup and motor has change alot since my last one was running. Things change and go alot slower I notice since my baby was born. I have no time now to do anything. sucks, but worth it. Also, as a consultant and flying back and forth to pittsburgh every Monday-Thursday does leave much time.

[GG///M3]

Its interesting you say this, because I think I have a hold on getting Pro EFI to build me a unit working with the stock DME and can use that flex fuel apparatus. If I dont go this route it will be a major pain to purge, but this car doesnt see much travel and there are E85 places placed just far enough apart in Charlotte that you can get there within 10-15 mins.

With the sig, I had it setup for my build to be, but even that has changed since then. I dont get on here enough anymore to really notice it. My turbo setup and motor has change alot since my last one was running. Things change and go alot slower I notice since my baby was born. I have no time now to do anything. sucks, but worth it. Also, as a consultant and flying back and forth to pittsburgh every Monday-Thursday does leave much time.

Life happens to all of us. Are you still using a hta3586? I'm currently running 1 on my car, and hope to have it fully tuned in the coming weeks.

[rt turbo]

Life happens to all of us. Are you still using a hta3586? I'm currently running 1 on my car, and hope to have it fully tuned in the coming weeks.
That was/is still the plan. I may end up putting the 35r back on first and swapping out over the winter. I havent made the purchase yet to make sure I could finish the motor along with having the kid. Looks like it should not be a problem with funds though at this point. Also, Im slightly holding out to see what this new crazy BW wavy impeller thing is about. Looks promising and I am leaning towards one of these units right now.

[GG///M3]

That was/is still the plan. I may end up putting the 35r back on first and swapping out over the winter. I havent made the purchase yet to make sure I could finish the motor along with having the kid. Looks like it should not be a problem with funds though at this point. Also, Im slightly holding out to see what this new crazy BW wavy impeller thing is about. Looks promising and I am leaning towards one of these units right now.

So the motor isn't even done yet? Maybe ship it out to the OP for it to be built properly.

[rt turbo]

So the motor isn't even done yet? Maybe ship it out to the OP for it to be built properly.
Yeah, Its been an unbelievable bunch of BS from the machine shop. They finally got machining done and we are filing rings and final assembly as soon as I have time. The machine work and subsequent clearances have all been verified (except crank clearance which will be done today or tomorrow), and is a very nice job, but was too damn long. I got put on the back burner for awhile and didnt want to move shops in the middle of the machine work as that is how my last motor failed. Even though it took awhile, it should be a hell of a well-built motor.

OP, sorry for OT.

[ar design]

No worries - back on topic - track was a no go last night.... RAIN = FAIL.

In other news, Dan from Miller will be here tonight! WIN!!!

[GG///M3]

No worries - back on topic - track was a no go last night.... RAIN = FAIL.

In other news, Dan from Miller will be here tonight! WIN!!!

So it will be on the dyno tonight?

[ar design]

Spending some time on the street first.

[rt turbo]

So, with this super-trick wavy impeller blade turbo you have, what size would this equate to again in Garrett-world? Slightly larger than a gt35r? Also, if you dont mind me asking, what do they run, or better yet, what "deals" are out there to pick one up? This is a BB unit right?

Also, what is the advantage on the wavy intake port?

[flexer]

So, with this super-trick wavy impeller blade turbo you have, what size would this equate to again in Garrett-world? Slightly larger than a gt35r? Also, if you dont mind me asking, what do they run, or better yet, what "deals" are out there to pick one up? This is a BB unit right?

Also, what is the advantage on the wavy intake port?


If the OP tells me the inducer and exducer size of the compressor wheel I will tell you what it matches in the garrett world. :-)

Also take note. e85 IS MAGIC GAS. I REPEAT>>> IT IS THE BOMB DIGGY. Anyone that has access to it should use it. It really is THAT good.

OP, I can't WAIT to see results if you switch the car over the "magic gas"

JR

[Colby Colbs]

For yall that forgot they are running an S362 aka 62mm inducer on the compressor side aka percision 6262 aka less that half a mm larger than a gt35r!


So, with this super-trick wavy impeller blade turbo you have, what size would this equate to again in Garrett-world? Slightly larger than a gt35r? Also, if you dont mind me asking, what do they run, or better yet, what "deals" are out there to pick one up? This is a BB unit right?

Also, what is the advantage on the wavy intake port?

They are not ball bearing. On some units you can get an upgrade 360deg thrust bearing for extra...

The BatMo wheel is also an upgrade

The base units are in the $1500+ and up w/vband kit

The "deal" is since your funds are looking "good", you pull out your credit card and you order one...

[GG///M3]

For yall that forgot they are running an S362 aka 62mm inducer on the compressor side aka percision 6262 aka less that half a mm larger than a gt35r!



They are not ball bearing. On some units you can get an upgrade 360deg thrust bearing for extra...

The BatMo wheel is also an upgrade

The base units are in the $1500+ and up w/vband kit

The "deal" is since your funds are looking "good", you pull out your credit card and you order one...


Good info. I still like the gt35r turbo. I think its honestly 1 of the best turbos for these cars. :)

[turbo325ii]

Love this thread. :)

[rt turbo]

If the OP tells me the inducer and exducer size of the compressor wheel I will tell you what it matches in the garrett world. :-)

Also take note. e85 IS MAGIC GAS. I REPEAT>>> IT IS THE BOMB DIGGY. Anyone that has access to it should use it. It really is THAT good.

OP, I can't WAIT to see results if you switch the car over the "magic gas"

JR
Thats what Ive heard.:buttrock

[rt turbo]

If the OP tells me the inducer and exducer size of the compressor wheel I will tell you what it matches in the garrett world. :-)

Also take note. e85 IS MAGIC GAS. I REPEAT>>> IT IS THE BOMB DIGGY. Anyone that has access to it should use it. It really is THAT good.

OP, I can't WAIT to see results if you switch the car over the "magic gas"

JR
Thats what Ive heard.:buttrock

[flexer]

OP.

Looking at the compressor housing on the BEP turbo w/ the batmo wheel....Is that an anti-surge housing or standard housing? It looks standard, but in one of the photo's it looks like there is a large slot for venting. Does the turbo whistle very loud when spooling?

JR

[M3ANMUG]

OP.

Looking at the compressor housing on the BEP turbo w/ the batmo wheel....Is that a anti-surge housing or standard housing? It looks standard, but in one of the photo's it looks like there is a large slot for venting. Does the turbo whistle very loud when spooling?

JR

Yes, it does have a large vent, and it whistle's pretty loud.

This is really the only outside video I have of the car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyqXQTepYJE

[das Boot]

bandimear is a awsome track, accept for the elevation.

[GG///M3]

Spending some time on the street first.

how did this work out

[ar design]

Head gasket let go on 5th dyno pull..... Cyl 6. Go figure. Have 50+ passes on setup, and 1500 street miles..... Head gasket was NOT done here at ar design, and head was VERY warped. Kind of amazed how long it held together. Pistons, plugs, and combustion chambers were very clean, no signs of detonation etc.

Head going out to get resurfaced, probably going to throw fresh bearings and rings in block. Have two more S50 powered turbo BMWs coming online shortly here, both with very similar setups, tuned on the WAR platform and Bullseye turbos. One is a stock motor + studs, the other is fully built bottom end and valvetrain. We are also getting ready to take on some in-house customer car builds.

Manifold and rest of hardware has been holding up VERY well. Very, very pleased. Car made 468whp on 91oct on a Mustang dyno at Tobz Performance (Thanks Brian for being so flexible with dyno scheduling!) Need to go back with street tires, as the 26" slicks eat up power. We went from 25psi to 15psi tire pressure, and dropped 30whp consistently.

[rt turbo]

Head was warped before or after it blew? At those power levels on stock compression, it very well could have warped from head lift on that cylinder. Given the fact it ran that many passes Id say it was not warped before because theres no way it would have held that long.

So what boost was this run at? thats impressive numbers for the taller tires for sure. I think we were all ready for a 470ish + whp number given the traps.

I guess the loads are quite different from the street to dyno given it blew on the dyno and not on the countless passes this car made.

[GG///M3]

Head gasket let go on 5th dyno pull..... Cyl 6. Go figure. Have 50+ passes on setup, and 1500 street miles..... Head gasket was NOT done here at ar design, and head was VERY warped. Kind of amazed how long it held together. Pistons, plugs, and combustion chambers were very clean, no signs of detonation etc.

Head going out to get resurfaced, probably going to throw fresh bearings and rings in block. Have two more S50 powered turbo BMWs coming online shortly here, both with very similar setups, tuned on the WAR platform and Bullseye turbos. One is a stock motor + studs, the other is fully built bottom end and valvetrain. We are also getting ready to take on some in-house customer car builds.

Manifold and rest of hardware has been holding up VERY well. Very, very pleased. Car made 468whp on 91oct on a Mustang dyno at Tobz Performance (Thanks Brian for being so flexible with dyno scheduling!) Need to go back with street tires, as the 26" slicks eat up power. We went from 25psi to 15psi tire pressure, and dropped 30whp consistently.

What kind of power were you making before the gasket gave up the ghost?

[ar design]

100% sure it was warped before it blew. History of motor was explained to me, and there is no question. 468whp.

No question the dyno places a LOT more load on the car than 1/4 mile passes or street time, and that finally pushed it over the edge.

Moral of the story: deck your head!!!!

[Colby Colbs]

No you deck your head! The buster kept you out of hand cuffs hahaa. Good old hg!

[ar design]

:lol

[Captain]

and he surely didnt just run back to the fort...corona anyone? :rofl

[fsmtnbiker]

Not trying to start a fight, just want to know to satisfy my own curiousity: is the 468whp corrected or uncorrected?

[M3ANMUG]

I actually don't know... I need to have Tobz send me the graphs

[Josh///M3]

Yes we need graphs! =)

[boosted 528]

How much boost were you running?

[flexer]

I really want to see the graph to see where torque is coming on and how well the turbo holds torque to redline. PLEASE if you can OP try and post the dyno plot.

JR

[Eurosquirrel]

I want to go for a ride in this, im in the northglenn area but i have a E36 328is.

[BadBoostedBmwM3]

Wow, that is a lot of power. I can't believe you made that much power on 91 oct and stock compression.

Anyways, it sucks to see the HG let go.

[ar design]

I want to go for a ride in this, im in the northglenn area but i have a E36 328is.

Come by any time. It wont be running for a bit here, however.

[ar design]

I want to go for a ride in this, im in the northglenn area but i have a E36 328is.

Come by any time. It wont be running for a bit here, however.

[Eurosquirrel]

When is the best time? Im off this weekend, i told my buddy joe to check out that badboy. He mentions the X5 M or was it the X6 M with the massive brembo kit.

[GG///M3]

We spend money going fast... Not on cameras :stickoutt

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/3076/img0943ji.jpg

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/1318/img0949j.jpg

Bump

[kellie]

Appropriate timing 'cause...


It's baaaaack! Paging ar design.

[ar design]

Just got Chris' M3 running again with a divided setup. Track opens in about a month. My E30 S50 is apart right now getting a manifold made ;)