Old style starter motor bolt/nut question

[Dash01]

I have the old style starter with torx bolts from the tranny side, secured by hex nuts on the engine side, and need to remove those torx bolts to drop the tranny, preferably leaving the starter and intake manifold, etc. in place.

Access to the torx heads is possible by using extensions and a U joint along the tranny.

However, the hex nuts on the engine side must be held so they don't spin as their torx bolts are backed out. These hex nuts are at 10 and 4 o'clock positions on the ears of the starter motor. The 4 o'clock nut can be seen and reached by spanner with some difficulty, as an assistant uses extensions to back out its torx bolt.

But, how to best reach and hold the 10 o'clock starter motor hex nut?

Some say to remove the intake manifold and all associated attachments, hoses, etc., a gross pita and a lot of extra work.

Is it possible to use several extensions and (going from the front near the oil filter housing) go straight back and under the intake manifold? In other words, slip the extensions and hex socket past those hoses, etc. and on to that 10 o'clock nut? Or, is there some unmovable obstruction in the way?

[flyfishvt]

I calculated the time I would have spent fudging around for another solution (including waiting for an answer from this forum) and decided to take the intake manifold off. It ended up being a wise move. I found some vacuum lines that had rotted in half and I had easy access to my ICV which had never been cleaned before.

Sometimes the longer route is the quickest route.

[hursh328ic]

I calculated the time I would have spent fudging around for another solution (including waiting for an answer from this forum) and decided to take the intake manifold off. It ended up being a wise move. I found some vacuum lines that had rotted in half and I had easy access to my ICV which had never been cleaned before.

Sometimes the longer route is the quickest route.


flyfishvt said all that should be said
become one with your car :)

[silvabmdub]

I have done this multiple times and if yoiur in a crunch then yu can do it just by taknig off your wheel and unbolt the transmission subframe.

Let the transmission hang down and you can fish your hands up there and get at it. it might be stuck on there after you unbolt it so you might have to hamme rat with a hammer and a long extension for a little bit on one of the thicker looking lobes.

thats just how I've done it on my buddies car and my own car.

Good luck

[Dash01]

I have done this multiple times and if yoiur in a crunch then yu can do it just by taknig off your wheel and unbolt the transmission subframe.

Let the transmission hang down and you can fish your hands up there and get at it. it might be stuck on there after you unbolt it so you might have to hamme rat with a hammer and a long extension for a little bit on one of the thicker looking lobes.

thats just how I've done it on my buddies car and my own car.

Good luck

By taking of my wheel, do you mean unbolting the steering wheel linkage and the crossmembers supporting the engine/tranny, and lowering them somewhat for more working space between engine and firewall? Or, take of the left front wheel/tire, to reach past those struts and hoses, and get to that hidden nut at an angle, using a mirror to see?

It's the inner starter motor bolt I'm concerned with here, closest to the engine block, and how to get at it. It's hard to see anything, but a tiny lipstick camera with a laptop computer screen display might make it possible to see. I can slip a 2' dowel rod back there under the intake manifold and get pretty close to that nut, so wonder if a socket and extensions of that length might do the trick, if properly guided. Of course, re-attaching that nut later will be the real challenge.

This starter is of the older 3 nut attachment type, with 2 nuts/bolts through ears and the engine/tranny flange, and a 3rd on a small bracket at the other end of the starter. Since I don't need to remove the starter, suppose that 3rd bolt would hold it in place while I swap trannies.

[buyersagent420]

I am having this problem right now trying to re-install the starter. I held the nut with my finger to keep from turning while removing the inverted torx bolt, but I tried for a few hours today to hold the nut in place for re-installing the starter after the transmission is put back in. The bottom starter bolt was a breeze but there is not nearly enough room to fit my hand down in there on the top starter bolt to hold it in place . . . so I think taking the intake manifold is my only remaining option. Any other input would be appreciated for more than the OP.

[freddybeemer100]

Listen to the advice given by flyfishvt, figure this, if it's time to drop the tranny --it's time to remove the intake manifold. I pulled the manifold and found all manner of rotten hoses including fuel lines (thank you ethanol) cooling system hoses and the always fun to play with ICV.

It's not if --it's when, one of those old hoses are going to blow leaving you stranded at the very least. One more thing -- leave the fuel lines attached to the manifold and remove as a unit.

[Dash01]

I am having this problem right now trying to re-install the starter. I held the nut with my finger to keep from turning while removing the inverted torx bolt, but I tried for a few hours today to hold the nut in place for re-installing the starter after the transmission is put back in. The bottom starter bolt was a breeze but there is not nearly enough room to fit my hand down in there on the top starter bolt to hold it in place . . . so I think taking the intake manifold is my only remaining option. Any other input would be appreciated for more than the OP.

I spent quite a bit of time messing with this, including use of a laparoscopic inspection camera in an attempt to go under the intake manifold with a socket wrench and several wobble extensions. No dice, due to a small bracket just in front of the bitch nut.

Here's what worked, without removing the intake manifold and associated gear: There is webbing in the plastic intake manifold between tubes. Each web has a couple of holes, one of which is ~1" X ~3/4" and rectangular, just next to the head. Said hole between tubes for cylinders 5 and 6 gives direct access to the bitch nut for the starter, ~10.5" below the hole. If you climb up on the engine with a good light, you can see the nut below that hole. My bitch nut is 5/8" hex nut, not a metric size. So, I duct taped a 5/8" spanner to a long screwdriver (needs to be slender enough to go through the hole) with enough overlap to be stiff, noting the vertical plane of the spanner jaw so that it matches the vertical plane of the bitch nut, and lowered it onto the nut, to counterhold after my wife with skinny arm and hand reached up from below to thread the nut on the bolt and then hold the wrench in place on the nut. Then, using ~30" of wobble extensions and a torx socket from behind and above the partly lowered tranny, I tightened the nut.

An open ended spanner works best since it can hold the nut without being exactly perpendicular to its axis. A socket might work, but then would be too big to fit through the hole in the intake manifold webbing.

You can almost get to that nut with ~2' of extension by going past the oil filter housing and under the intake manifold--but there is a small bracket in the way just forward of the nut. An offset crowfoot spanner wrench on a ~2' extension might work via that route, making a long L shaped tool to get past the bracket. Installation is difficult, esp. threading the nut on the torx bolt. Torx bolt can be held in place by the ~30" wobble extension and torx socket from the rear, secured by a bungie cord so the bolt stays in its hole through the flange.

Trying to see that nut is like looking up a dead mule's ass. Magnet-based LED lights were my tool of choice, in addition to the laparoscope from Harbor Freight. A snake camera, bullet camera, or cheap webcam with a long cable and plugged into a laptop computer would be a lot better: Fix lens in position with magnet or clip, then watch on your laptop computer screen.

Best and easiest idea: If your tranny is out of the car, superglue or JBWeld that nut in place, let the glue set up, and simply drive the torx bolt from behind the tranny with ~30" wobble extensions and torx socket.

[RahgBag]

You found the solution on your own ;)

I was just about to write about the 5-6 gap for the wrench.

[Dash01]

You found the solution on your own ;)

I was just about to write about the 5-6 gap for the wrench.

The trick here is, if removing the tranny anyway, to just undo the starter bolts from the rear with a ~30" set of wobble extensions ($8 at Harbor Freight).

Once the tranny is out, easy to JBWeld or Superglue the nut onto the starter flange. Using the vacant space left by the removed tranny, just reach over the flange, clean the surface so the glue gets a good grip and using the correct glue, glue the nut onto the stater flange. Use the stock torx bolt and a socket to hold it in correct position and alignment with the hole until the glue cures, being careful not to glue the bolt or nut threads.

Now, your starter has, effectively, a thick and threaded flange, so when installing the tranny you just slip the torx bolt into the hole and drive it home with the wobbly extensions. That's the easy way, if the tranny is out of the car. The small starter motor bracket holds it in correct position all this time.

If the tranny is not out of the car, see my post above, use the passenger side hole in the intake manifold webbing, and fiddle with a long box wrench. Note that it is ~10.5" from the upper surface of the intake manifold at that hole, to the centerline of the torx bolt/nut. So, use or fabricate an open-ended wrench longer than that, say, 15" long, so enough sticks out the top to use as a handle. My long screwdriver duct taped to said wrench worked OK. Thin wall jaws on the wrench are a big plus, lest it jam between nut and engine flange. A box wrench with ~20 degree angled tip might work, esp. if its ring were ground to thin wall thickness. It could be magnetized to hold the nut, or the nut could be glued in using a spot or two of hot glue or similar, to hold the nut while working, but glue weak enough to break off the wrench once the nut is tightened.

Seeing and getting to this little bastard is the problem, else you have Braille method long distance and around corners. I plan on buying a lipstick or bullet camera, or a webcam with small head, to plug into this Acer laptop computer. With a clip or magnetic mount, the camera lens could be placed wherever needed to see WTF the work in progress.

You could use a Dremel tool with drum sander tip or router tip, and grind out the plastic between the two holes in the 5-6 cylinder webbing of the intake manifold. Then, you'd have a nice long slot to work in and see through, so could slip a box ratchet wrench down, engage the nut, and ratchet it tight. This beats hell out of paying some BMW dealer to screw you out of ~$800 shop time fixing a problem their engineers should have not caused in the first place.

[buyersagent420]

I think I used your general method of doing whatever works Dash01. Here is what I fashioned to avoid unnecessarily removing intake manifold.

In this picture, you can barely see the threaded end of the top starter bolt above and behind the visible bolt head in the center of the opening. Picture is taken through the opening underneath the intake manifold.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=1920&pictureid=10559

Now you can see the end of the "Rube Goldberg" style, makeshift tool I made to hold the nut in alignment at the end of the starter bolt while threading it.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=1920&pictureid=10560

This is a picture of the tool. A steel shelf cross-support (or anything similar that you might have lying around) with the nut hot glued to the end. Mine happened to be glued over a hole, so alignment was visible through the opening under the intake manifold.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=1920&pictureid=10561

While this isn't the obvious method for professionals when re-installing an E36 M42 starter bolt/nut this is how I held my makeshift tool in a position so the nut was aligned with the threaded end of the bolt. I can only envision this type of setup at the dealer service center. I really wasn't ready to take the intake manifold off without an immediate need to do so . . .

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=1920&pictureid=10562

If I had known this was going to be such a problem before re-installing my transmission I would have JB Welded the damn thing to the back of the starter before putting the tranny back in the car. I guess there's always next time . . .

Even with all this in place, I had to crawl under and out from under the car at least 20 times before the threads caught instead of getting pushed out of alignment. Could have done it very easily with a little help.

Did I mention the 3' of extensions it took to reach the bolt from above the transmission?

[Dash01]

Another possibility to put the nut in correct position would be to use an ~8' string or fishing line threaded from the back of the hole and down below the car. Put the string through the bitch nut, then attach string to the narrow end of a tapered item such as a golf tee. Now carefully put some JBWeld on the washer part of the nut, not the threads. Pull the string back up, it takes the nut with it, and the golf tee centers it on the starter motor hole. Let it cure. Remove string. Now nut is glued to starter motor ear, so drive the torx bolt in and tighten from the rear with 30" wobbly extensions.

I bet the dealers know exactly how to get to that nut, but won't tell because it would cut into their $800 shop fee per "book rate."