Halp meh, engine won't turn over after 5 speed swap!

[mpaganr34]

Backstory:

5 speed swap into the 525 touring got mostly finished today. Got excited, went to start the car, and it won't turn over.

Electronically everything is working, but when I turn the key I feel it want to engage but nothing happens.

Tried to turn the crank with a wrench and it was fully locked up. The engine will not spin. Removed the starter and it still wouldn't spin, so that can't be causing it to lock up. Driveshaft spins in neutral so the issue isn't related to that or anything behind that point.

Anyone have any idea what the problem could be?

[RVAE34]

Does the E34 have a neutral safety switch? And if so did you address that?

[mpaganr34]

Yes indeed. I'm pretty positive it's not electrical related. Prior to the transmission installation we could physically turn the crankshaft by hand with a wrench, but after the installation we can't physically turn it.

[darrenforeal]

Sounds to me like you may have installed the fw/pp and clutch wrong. If not are you sure the trans engaged into the pilot bearing and what not? can't see what else it would be.

[mpaganr34]

I was afraid of that. We're dismantling tomorrow and checking. Yaaaaay. Could it be something like flywheel bolts catching on the pressure plate?

[darrenforeal]

I was afraid of that. We're dismantling tomorrow and checking. Yaaaaay. Could it be something like flywheel bolts catching on the pressure plate?

doubt it they should sit farther in. I mean the center of the clutch is what would rub on them if anything. take pictures if you take it apart and take more of how you put it back together. I honestly can't think of anything else it would be based on what you said. I have a feeling it may be the shaft did engage right. But at the same time the trans then shouldn't have even be able to bolt up. Make sure you put grease on it on and around the inside and face of the throwout bearing. In addition make sure the actually trans isn't detective.

Hopefully LouieD checks in too. I know he has the same setup and can answer better than I. Maybe pm him?

[kmp]

I am mpaganr34's dad.

We put a f/w, pp, clutch, starter from an m20. We used 12 x 28 f/w bolts per oem.

Is it possible to put the f/w, pp, clutch in wrong? We used a pilot tool and used a new pilot bearing.
I am thinking that the f/w bolts are to long, or the pp bolts are to long.

The motor turned over with a wrench on the crank when we removed the torque converter.
Now it will not move at all with a wrench at the crank.

Any help would be appreciated

[darrenforeal]

I am mpaganr34's dad.

We put a f/w, pp, clutch, starter from an m20. We used 12 x 28 f/w bolts per oem.

Is it possible to put the f/w, pp, clutch in wrong? We used a pilot tool and used a new pilot bearing.
I am thinking that the f/w bolts are to long, or the pp bolts are to long.

The motor turned over with a wrench on the crank when we removed the torque converter.
Now it will not move at all with a wrench at the crank.

Any help would be appreciated

did you use the shim in between the bolts and fw? Also my hunch is those aren't too long. Because they have a lot of thread to go into If I remember right. Also do you remember anything weird when you were buttoning it up? Like weird resistance??

[e30nate]

isnt there supposed to be a spacer or shim type thing behind the flywheel? i know on my e30s there was.

[yerbs]

Yep the spacer is definitely needed if using the m20 flywheel.

LouiD mentions it and a few other tips here:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1451098

[NY Bimmers]

possibly jammed the pilot bearing bad with the input shaft???

[mpaganr34]

Running no spacer, looking around it seemed like it wasn't absolutely necessary with our bolt length. After all this talk of it, I'll make sure we put that in when we reassemble tomorrow.

[LouieD]

Did you machine the back of the m20 FW for clearance? If not, it's probably touching the bolts that attach the rear main seal housing to the block/oil pan. When an m20 FW is used and lightened this is not an issue, but if used stock then either a bit needs to be removed from the back of the FW or the heads on those bolts (10mm hex) must be taken down just a bit. Pop the trans back out, loosen the FW bolts and see if the motor turns. The clutch disk could be in backwards, but I can't see that stopping the motor from turning. The springs on the disk should face you, not the FW.

If you used the longer (28mm bolts) without the spacer, they could be touching the block and/or above mentioned bolts.

[mpaganr34]

Well, crap. Sounds like we might have a lead.

[ross1]

I am mpaganr34's dad.

We put a f/w, pp, clutch, starter from an m20. We used 12 x 28 f/w bolts per oem.

Is it possible to put the f/w, pp, clutch in wrong? We used a pilot tool and used a new pilot bearing.
I am thinking that the f/w bolts are to long, or the pp bolts are to long.

The motor turned over with a wrench on the crank when we removed the torque converter.
Now it will not move at all with a wrench at the crank.

Any help would be appreciated

There is a shim that sets on top of the flywheel that is ~5mm thick. If you didn't use that the FW bolts might be protruding from the rear of crank far enough to catch.
#10 here;http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=1113&mospid=47309&btnr=11_1937&hg=11&fg=20

This illustration is a bit confusing, the shim goes just under the bolt heads, not between the flywheel and crank.

[HE53]

I'm betting on the bolts....


I was accused of selling a guy a bad motor that was locked up, (even though we turned it over on the stand when I sold it) because he put the wrong bolts in the flywheel and the car wouldn't turn over.

[kmp]

We used the spacer between the bolts and f/w.

I think Louie D's theory might be right. We used a stock m20 f/w with no machine work done to it.

We are going to unbolt the tranny and see if the engine moves.

If it is the flywheel, is the only solution to remove material from the back side
of the flywheel?

One more thought:

Is there a crank position sensor on the m20 f/w that could be hitting the
block?

[NY Bimmers]

Nope, no cps in the bell housing. I think louie d has this one pegged.

[525gte]

with the spark plugs out and the drive line not hooked up. put the car in like 5th and see if you can turn it over with a wrench.. just to be sure its not a tranny issue. i would try that out befor e rippig into it.. but its probly a spacer issue sounds way more likey

[darrenforeal]

not the cps. That is on the front of the motor and monitors the wheel that has the notches that is actually attached to the front on the crank.

I think LouieD hit it on the head. TO use the m20 FW you had to have it machined out I believe. Otherwise there is no point in using it. The point in using it is to have a budget single mass light weight flywheel. It brings it down to around 11 or 12 pounds or so. Should run $80 to $150 to have it done right. ALso, I suggest using a mixture of fluid in the trans if you use any type of LWFW to help eliminate any gear rattle. Use the uuc recommended mix.

" A change to a slightly heavier grade of transmission fluid (UUC recommends a specific mix of transmission fluids, 1 bottle Redline 75W-140NS and 1 bottle Redline D4 ATF) will eliminate it entirely in some cars, or at least reduce the remaining rattle a subjective 90%."

[mpaganr34]

Well, Louis nailed it.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd393/mpaganr34/288c6501.jpg
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd393/mpaganr34/fb852e59.jpg

We're definitely having some clearance issues. It was so easy to see too, I have no idea why we didn't see it going in. Going to the machine shop tomorrow morning first thing.

[kmp]

Thanks Darrenforeal

The only reason we used the single mass m20 f/w is the dual mass f/w was junk and no one could resurface it.

We found the problem: The back of the flywheel was touching the engine block
at the rear main gasket housing.

We need to have at least 1/8" of material removed.
I am wondering if there is a maximum amount of material we can take off?

How much fluid does the zf 310 take?

[LouieD]

You can take quiet a bit off before you would run into problems. Mine is just over 12lbs. The trans will require two quarts of fluid. Glad you got it solved.

[darrenforeal]

Thanks Darrenforeal

The only reason we used the single mass m20 f/w is the dual mass f/w was junk and no one could resurface it.

We found the problem: The back of the flywheel was touching the engine block
at the rear main gasket housing.

We need to have at least 1/8" of material removed.
I am wondering if there is a maximum amount of material we can take off?

How much fluid does the zf 310 take?


1 bottle Redline 75W-140NS and 1 bottle Redline D4 ATF is your best bet for LWFW applications to ensure minimal gear rattle. But you may be ok with normal fluid with a 12lber.

[kmp]

Thanks Darren & Louie

Going to the machine shop this morning.
Oil change this afternoon.
5 speed touring should be rolling soon!

[uk525td]

yer i was too late on this one but the m20 flywheel definately conflicts with somethign on the back of the motor (tested it on an m52 few weeks back)

You have used a 323 release bearing i take it? as the stock (may) not be long enough to release the clutch

[kmp]

We have the 323 t/o bearing.
The f/w is being machined today.

Which redline oil would you recommend for the 3.23 open diff?

[darrenforeal]

We have the 323 t/o bearing.
The f/w is being machined today.

Which redline oil would you recommend for the 3.23 open diff?

redline 75W90 for the diff

[kmp]

Thanks to everyone who helped!
The touring is on the road. (except for licensce plates. Still waiting for DMV.)

For the record, we remover 5mm from the back of the flywheel. It only lightened it by 1.25 lbs. There is around 2mm clearance between the f/w
and the oil seal housing.

[LouieD]

Glad to hear it all worked out.

[OfficialE60]

Yes check flywheel bolts sometimes the bolts are shorter on a manuall...

[darrenforeal]

nice glad to hear that.

[sfgearhead]

Congrats guys, glad to hear of another manual touring on the road! :D

I wish I had done the M20 flywheel in ours, next time I will.

[mpaganr34]

Thanks guys! I drove it a bit, definitely different than the 530.

[uk525td]

do oyu need to re balance the flywheel when back cutting it?

[sfgearhead]

Different how? Good? Bad? Blonde vs. Redhead?

[e30nate]

if you were already having the flywheel machined, why not have it lightened as much as possible?

[mpaganr34]

Different how? Good? Bad? Blonde vs. Redhead?
Haha well touring on stock suspension vs. sedan on lowered suspension different, but the single mass flywheel was weird too. Almost like going back to my Camry, for lack of a better way to explain it. The clutch engaged way closer to the floor than it did in the 530. I'd like to take it around town for a few hundred miles before I really romp on it. At that point, I'll report back with the difference in performance.

if you were already having the flywheel machined, why not have it lightened as much as possible?
:dunno To take off any more weight, material would have to start coming off the front which would change where the clutch engaged and stuff. Seemed like a lot to deal with. Figure I don't really need to go too light for a daily until I want to get crazy and go the turbo wagon route or something of that nature, which is quite a ways off.

[LouieD]

Proper machining of the FW would not alter clutch engagement. The material is not removed from either the FW to crank mating surface nor the face of the FW. It's all removed off the back. So making the FW lighter will not change the clutch engagement point. You'll get used to the single mass soon enough. Did you end up changing the differential?

[mpaganr34]

Even if we removed material from the front? This is how it looked after the machine shop was done with it:
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd393/mpaganr34/02e22b71.jpg
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd393/mpaganr34/5dc9e960.jpg
And yes, new diff. 3.23 open from the donor car I think. Not limited slip, but oh well. I don't intend to hold my drifts or go to the snow much, so I'm not too concerned, but if I find a good deal on an LSD I'll definitely put it in.