WTF?! I Have 12 Degrees of Negative Camber

[Roofus]

Allow me to provide some background and context and then based on that I need some major help figuring out what the hell is going on or if I am just bat shit crazy.

Things to know up front:
-In the past two weeks I have been doing a brake job and installing an FK Konigsport coilover kit as well as wheel spacer.
-Front wheels have ET57. They are SSR GT1's (i believe) and are 8.5" wide.
-To clear suspension I was forced to use 20mm spacers from Turner.
-I am using the Bimmerworld shim kit.

Upon finishing my install last night I noticed that my wheels were significantly cocked. There was noticeable negative camber to the point of looking like some sort of mini-truck on air bags. It was 2am, so I wasn't thinking super clearly and just wanted the car off the lift and home. So today I pulled out the trusty calculator and went to work.

First note that I was working based on the "Definitive Alignment Guide (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=995556)" thread in which the thread states that front camber should be set at -2.0 degrees and that using roughly 2.63mm in shims should add -1 degree negative camber for a total of -2 degrees negative camber per side.

The Bimmerworld shim kit (http://store.bimmerworld.com/e36-front-camber-shim-kit-p610.aspx) comes with two sets of 3 shims. 0.030mm, 0.060mm, and 0.120mm. The combination of all three would equal 0.210mm. Therefore using all three shims together should result in just under -0.5 degrees camber for a total camber of just under -1.5 degrees per side. This is what we did.

Now today I ran the arithmetic. The equation is thus:
angle = arctan( h / l )
where h = the difference between the two measurements
and l = the vertical distance between the two measurements.

The basic principle is this: You take a right angle and place it square against the ground and the bottom center of the wheel. You measure from the center of the wheel to the vertical of the right angle and mark that point. Measure 7" up from the center mark and take a measurement from that top point across to the top of the wheel. Then measure 7" down from the center marking and take the measurement from that bottom point across to the bottom of the wheel.

If the top measurement is > than the bottom measurement, you have negative camber (duh!).

Now to determine your camber, you take the top measurement and subtract the lower measurement. You then take the resulting figure and multiply by 4. The result is your degrees of negative camber.

My measurements:
Right Front
Upper: 2 1/2"
Lower: 3/8"
2 1/2 - 3/8 = 2.125 * 4 = -8.125 degrees camber

Left Front
Upper: 3 3/8"
Lower: 3/8"
3 3/8 - 3/8 = 3 * 4 = -12 degrees camber

WTF?!

Did the spacers increase the camber? Arguably if my reading of the alignment guide was accurate, and my arithmetic is accurate, then even if I removed the shim kit that would only remove less than -0.5 degrees of negative camber.

I obviously cannot drive around like this. It is unsafe, it will eat my tires, it will most likely add stress to the rest of the suspension system and cause future damage, and it looks dumb.

I have not a clue where to go at this point and need some light shed on this either to tell me I'm doing the math wrong, or read the alignment guide wrong, or what I can do to fix this or something. I'm totally at a loss.

Pics below.

http://thelobbyist.net/thefilesareinthecomputer/camber1.jpg

http://thelobbyist.net/thefilesareinthecomputer/camber2.jpg

http://thelobbyist.net/thefilesareinthecomputer/camber3.jpg

http://thelobbyist.net/thefilesareinthecomputer/camber4.jpg

[xcore]

Because race car:cool:cool looks cool bro! lol,

[RRSperry]

Well when you lower the car stupid amounts you also gain negative camber. And that looks stupid low...lol

[MasterKwan]

First note that I was working based on the "Definitive Alignment Guide" thread in which the thread states that front camber should be set at -2.0 degrees and that using roughly 2.63mm in shims should add -1 degree negative camber for a total of -2 degrees negative camber per side.

The Bimmerworld shim kit comes with two sets of 3 shims. 0.030mm, 0.060mm, and 0.120mm. The combination of all three would equal 0.210mm. Therefore using all three shims together should result in just under -0.5 degrees camber for a total camber of just under -1.5 degrees per side. This is what we did.

First problem I think I see:

Using all 3 together will probably get you at least -5 degrees. Pull the shims out and you'll probably have -1 or -2 from the drop and probably won't need that 20mm spacer. Using just the thick spacer gets me -3ish. You can pull the spacers pretty easily. I just loosen the top bolt on the strut, remove the lower bolts and the shims can be made to drop out.

Your toe is probably WAY off too meaning when you do your camber measurement you'll need to adjust the steering so each wheel is straight before making the camber measurement. Otherwise I think caster will affect the measurement. When I measure camber, I lean a t-square up against the tire, measure distance to the edge of each rim. Then subtracting the min distance from both, gives me a nice hypotenuse.

[weaksauce]

that looks like about 4 degrees to me, and stupid slammed coilovers look like they gave you shit camber. perfect street setup bro.

Now today I ran the arithmetic. The equation is thus:
angle = arctan( h / l )
where h = the difference between the two measurements
and l = the vertical distance between the two measurements.

Now to determine your camber, you take the top measurement and subtract the lower measurement. You then take the resulting figure and multiply by 4. The result is your degrees of negative camber.

My measurements:
Right Front
Upper: 2 1/2"
Lower: 3/8"
2 1/2 - 3/8 = 2.125 * 4 = -8.125 degrees camber

Left Front
Upper: 3 3/8"
Lower: 3/8"
3 3/8 - 3/8 = 3 * 4 = -12 degrees camber
those two equations don't look anything a like.

step one, raise the car back up to a driveable height, then take all the stupid shim spacers out. you don't need coilovers and -3 degrees camber to drive on teh street
then get it aligned

good luck.

[dano670]

What size wheel are you using? Your brakes look tiny. On my stock 17's my caliper is almost hitting my wheel.

[GG Allin]

You are the envy of the VW crowd.

[Brent 930]

Your calculations are off as you didn't account for the angle. You can't just take each measurement top and bottom and subtract.

Remove the shims and raise the front of the car. Based on your CO's I would go to 12.75" which is a good low street height. Do this measuring from the fender lip to the wheel center. You might still need the 20mm spacers to clear the strut housing with those wheels. The wheel spacers would just make the car a tad lower and thus a tad more neg camber. You don't need more than -2 to -2.5 deg of camber on the street. More than likely with a F12.75" ride height you will be in that range.

Then set your rear ride height to 12" and go get an alignment done. Much lower and you risk damage driving on the street unless you run really stiff springs and your dampening is also stiff. I'm just a tad under that ride hieght with AST 4100's 650/550 springs and I wouldn't go any lower for street driving.

[southpaw]

Because stanceworks.

[DBVille]

Formula:

No, it's not the same. However, it sort of works. The reason to use the 14" distance (7" above and below center) is that the error between 0-3" of difference, between top and bottom, varies between -2% and 0%. Of course, the 0% error is with 14 degrees :eek: of camber.

Put another way:

angle = arctan( h / l )
is approximately, with l=14"
angle = h*4


OP:
The BW shim kit comes with shims in INCHES, not mm. Based on the Definitive Alignment Guide, using all 0.21 Inches (4.6mm) results in 1.7 degrees or so. Plus, since you have changed the whole geometry of the car by lowering it, the effect is probably increased.

I agree with others - you have the car so low that the camber is significantly increased. It just all adds up.

Remove the shims - all of them. And see what it does. If it is still too much, you will probably have to raise :eek: the car. Or live with the excess camber.

[arthothezilvian]

Because stanceworks.
/thread

[Russell042]

Camber plates. JS

[Roofus]

Your calculations are off as you didn't account for the angle. You can't just take each measurement top and bottom and subtract.

They aren't off. What you are saying is not the complete calculation. You must multiply the result of the subtracted measurements by 4 because the arctan (1/4" / 14") = 1 degree. Which is also why the distance between the two outer points of measurement is 14".

Stanceworks is no thanks. Appreciate the folks that read through the issue and realized I have not yet adjusted ride height. It came off the lift, drove it home, and has been in the garage ever since.

Shims will come off, and then will start adjusting based on your recommendations as a starting point.

@DBVille & MasterKwan, nice catch. I'm an idiot. Thought shims were in mm. That is obviously a big part of the issue...

@dano, the wheels up front are 17x8.5. The calipers are the oem M3 calipers that came on the car. Not all wheels internal dimensions are the same. And obviously with ET57 it magnifies the void between the wheel and caliper.

@mbrouder, uh, every BMW owner is the envy of the VW crowd.

[m3cliff]

Your math is correct.

I'm not sure your measurements are, but that's just going on the pictures which are not with the wheels straight or from the direct front or back of the car.

I'm with most on here, the lowest in the front you can do on the street and I think without other modifications is about 12.5" from the top of the wheelwell to the center of the wheel. The suspension just isn't made to run with the lca at the angle that a lower stance places it. 12" in the back is ok, but you can play move it up and down to match the front and how you want it to look.

Also camber/caster plates are almost a must have with coilovers and a low ride height.

[Roofus]

I realize you guys are going off pics so you can't see this. Part of my concern is that the car is not as low as many of you think it is. I measured 11.75" on the left and 12" on the right. I will bring it up a half inch as was recommended to start.

[KnudsonsM3]

because because

[Brent 930]

Roofus, ignore those clowns and follow my recommendation and you will be golden.

[dano670]

@dano, the wheels up front are 17x8.5. The calipers are the oem M3 calipers that came on the car. Not all wheels internal dimensions are the same. And obviously with ET57 it magnifies the void between the wheel and caliper.



Well, I don't think this is an M3 then. I can definitely see in the pictures the camber, but those are some tiny brakes. The spare on my car is a 17" because there is no way to put a 16" on it. You have enough clearance to put a 15" rim on that thing.

Yours:


http://thelobbyist.net/thefilesareinthecomputer/camber3.jpg


M3 brakes
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/media/img/projectcars/installed_rb.jpg

[Roofus]

dano do you not realize that the interior circumference of a wheel has nothing to do with its maximum circumference?

Furthermore, I live in Atlanta and I'm happy for you to drive up from Warner Robbins and check my vin, and assorted Motorsports stamps and appointments including the ones on the brakes. Not to mention I just did a brake job as mentioned in this thread. Do you think the M3 rotors and pads I ordered just magically grew to size and fit in 328i calipers. Get a clue...


Roofus, ignore those clowns and follow my recommendation and you will be golden.

Removed the shims this morning. Raised the car to 12" rear and 12.75" front as recommended. Measurements taken tonight indicated -4.6 camber left, and -6 camber right +/- 1 degree because I measured sloppy this time. Obvious improvement is obvious, but there is still a problem here. Rear wheels look fine based on eyeball inspection.

This problem did not exist prior and at 12.75" front ride height is equivalent to the shocks/springs combo that existed prior to coilovers. Which ultimately leads me to believe that the spacers are increasing camber.

[Brent 930]

I wouldn't trust your measurements. No chance your camber is that neg. especially with no camber plates, and even then your right shock tower would be bent. Instead get it on an alignment rack.

20mm spacers won't make that much of a difference.

[Roofus]

I mean at this stage getting the alignment dialed in is the obvious next step. But idk man, I've had a lot of lowered vehicles and this doesn't appear to be 2-3 degrees negative camber to me via the eyeball test. I mean generally speaking aren't people usually complaining about needing to roll their fenders when they lower their car on average offsets, let alone ET57. I must have a good 2" plus of space at the fender lip. But I guess we can't know for certain till it's on an alignment stand.

http://thelobbyist.net/thefilesareinthecomputer/camber5.jpg

http://thelobbyist.net/thefilesareinthecomputer/camber6.jpg

http://thelobbyist.net/thefilesareinthecomputer/camber7.jpg

[321eurotuner]

wtf man, thats crazy

[RRSperry]

The only way a spacer could give you any camber is to be thinner on one side than the other. But then they wheel would pass from negative camber to positive camber as it rotated. (think about it....) It aint the spacers.

So that leads me to an install issue. Are you sure you got the bottom of the struts to sit flush on the spindle?

[Brent 930]

I would love to blow $200 on this bad boy.

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/LAR_78290_Longacre_Digital_Caster_Camber_Gauge/Longacre_Caster_Camber_Gauges

[ScotcH]

I mean at this stage getting the alignment dialed in is the obvious next step. But idk man, I've had a lot of lowered vehicles and this doesn't appear to be 2-3 degrees negative camber to me via the eyeball test. I mean generally speaking aren't people usually complaining about needing to roll their fenders when they lower their car on average offsets, let alone ET57. I must have a good 2" plus of space at the fender lip. But I guess we can't know for certain till it's on an alignment stand.

http://thelobbyist.net/thefilesareinthecomputer/camber5.jpg

http://thelobbyist.net/thefilesareinthecomputer/camber6.jpg

http://thelobbyist.net/thefilesareinthecomputer/camber7.jpg

That looks no more than 3.5 to me. We run 4.8 on the race car, and it's definitly more negative looking that what you show.

[Roofus]

That looks no more than 3.5 to me. We run 4.8 on the race car, and it's definitly more negative looking that what you show.

Safe for the street?

[Brent 930]

Bottom line you really don't know for sure what your camber is.

Safe for the street, but you will wear out tires fast.

[Roofus]

So that leads me to an install issue. Are you sure you got the bottom of the struts to sit flush on the spindle?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7G6ciJUMuAk/SoD9uG78PTI/AAAAAAAAANI/6BtwSHhMZoY/s400/not+sure+if+serious.jpg

[weaksauce]

http://thelobbyist.net/thefilesareinthecomputer/camber5.jpg

wheres the M on your calipers?

dano do you not realize that the interior circumference of a wheel has nothing to do with its maximum circumference?

Furthermore, I live in Atlanta and I'm happy for you to drive up from Warner Robbins and check my vin, and assorted Motorsports stamps and appointments including the ones on the brakes. Not to mention I just did a brake job as mentioned in this thread. Do you think the M3 rotors and pads I ordered just magically grew to size and fit in 328i calipers. Get a clue...
Removed the shims this morning. Raised the car to 12" rear and 12.75" front as recommended. Measurements taken tonight indicated -4.6 camber left, and -6 camber right +/- 1 degree because I measured sloppy this time. Obvious improvement is obvious, but there is still a problem here. Rear wheels look fine based on eyeball inspection.

This problem did not exist prior and at 12.75" front ride height is equivalent to the shocks/springs combo that existed prior to coilovers. Which ultimately leads me to believe that the spacers are increasing camber.

you are obviously math challenged, so we are all starting to judge all of your capabilities.

think real hard about what 12 degrees looks like, then look at your wheels. Same?
so without the spacers that are supposed to give you about another degree, you went from 12 degrees to 6 degrees? once again, the math doesn't add up.

heres an easy way to fix this. trailer it to an alignment machine and spend the $75

you are making this way too complicated man. you need an alignment anyways, get one and be done with it.

i'd say you are at about 3-3.5 camber in teh front from the pictures

p.s. in the original calculation, you left of the vertical measurement that would make your calculations correct.
did you measure the distance form the edge of the wheel to the reference point, or the edge of the tire to a reference point?

so 2.5 top of the wheel
.375 bottom of wheel
17" (inside edge of the lip of the wheel)
2.5 - .375 = 2.125
2.125/17 = .125
arctan (.125) = 7.12 degrees

thats assuming you measured correctly

[Roofus]

Holy crap. Some of you people on this forum are impossible...

http://thelobbyist.net/thefilesareinthecomputer/mcaliper.jpg


think real hard about what 12 degrees looks like, then look at your wheels. Same?
so without the spacers that are supposed to give you about another degree, you went from 12 degrees to 6 degrees? once again, the math doesn't add up.You're comparing various sides with one another and also not factoring in that the car was raised up slightly more than 1" which would decrease negative camber as well.

Also, the picture you are quoting is from after the shims were out and the car raised, so obviously the angle is not as significant. You're also looking at a picture... Does the actual wheel look like it could be falling into 3-6 degrees negative of a 90 degree angle? Yes.

[quotep.s. in the original calculation, you left of the vertical measurement that would make your calculations correct.
did you measure the distance form the edge of the wheel to the reference point, or the edge of the tire to a reference point?

so 2.5 top of the wheel
.375 bottom of wheel
17" (inside edge of the lip of the wheel)
2.5 - .375 = 2.125
2.125/17 = .125
arctan (.125) = 7.12 degrees[/quote]

No, I explained that. I was using a 14" stretch. 7" up from center, and 7" down from center because arctan (1/4 * 14) = 1 degree.

Therefore that stretch is your one degree and your calculation is the adjustment from that.

[Brent 930]

Maybe your new CO's where they mount to the spindles are way off causing extra neg. camber. Might as well take a picture of it and post.

[Roofus]

weaksauce you also have to consider that the shims were exacerbating the negative camber from the ride height like a multiplyer. So just because shims were worth -2 degrees camber, you can't just subtract 2 degrees from my original measurement. One would also have to adjust for the car being raised an inch and an inch plus depending on the side.

[Russell042]

LOL at having to prove you have an M3.

[biglovin]

When I but the GC/kit on my car, it lowered it and in addition I added the bimmerworld shim kit. Here are my results http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1553918

max was 2.7*
I cant imagine a CO that slams would increase to a number even close to 10

i dont see how -10 degrees is possible

i hope spastic doesnt mine but THIS is -10* camber

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4088/4982326292_77a32c5892_o.jpg

[Roofus]

LOL at having to prove you have an M3.

No kidding right? It's like the guy wants me to post a certified letter from my local BMW dealership...

[m3cliff]

Your math is correct.
I'm a little suspect on your measurements though. You have given measurements in 1/8" increments, which means you're not really measuring it that close. Also the tires have to be pointed straight or caster will effect the camber measurement.

The only thing you really changed that could have changed the camber is the struts/coilovers. Compare the mounting locations between the original and the coilovers. The mounting lugs need to be in near the same position as the originals. I don't think the stock strut mounts/bearings could increase camber that much no matter how you bolted them up.

Try another measurement on one wheel only, and try your best to have it pointed straight ahead, disregarding the other side. Measure using a scale with smaller increments and to the top and bottom of the wheel lip (the flat edge not on a spoke). Then measure the distance between the two points and post your results.

Or just get it down to an alignment shop and hope it can be adjusted to whatever you want.

[MIMI1]

LOL

Just go to a shop and get yourself a proper set of vorshlag camber plates.

[Roofus]

LOL

Just go to a shop and get yourself a proper set of vorshlag camber plates.

Paypal me $300 and we'll get that taken care of. ;)


Your math is correct.
I'm a little suspect on your measurements though. You have given measurements in 1/8" increments, which means you're not really measuring it that close. Also the tires have to be pointed straight or caster will effect the camber measurement.

I was using a 16th inch increment tape, but just rounded down because it was even numbers.

Alignment planned for Thursday.

[biglovin]

you will be pleased with realistic numbers

[Brent 930]

Camber plates will only help you even up both sides. It won't solve your issue.

[Roofus]

And this one goes out to all those folks that told me I was crazy and couldn't do math. Enjoy!

http://thelobbyist.net/thefilesareinthecomputer/camber8.jpg

The guy doing the alignment told me I have an obvious problem. (duh...) He suggested that I might have received the wrong struts.

I however had a nightmare revelation on the way home. Are my guide supports in backwards? If they are, then they are pushing away from the side of the vehicle and creating negative camber. I have a hunch this is my problem, and if it is then I'm a female hygiene cleansing sac. :grenade

I need someone to take a picture for me of the top of their guide support showing which direction the little arrow is pointing.

Just found a picture. Arrows point forward. http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx170/mqnina/emoticons/th_Emoticon_suicide.gif

[Brent 930]

Your math is wrong. Big difference between -8, -12 and -5.5.

Good news is your strut towers aren't messed up and a typical difference of approx. .5 deg between the two.

Yeah the the top of the strut shaft will be centered and towards the rear of the car. That is your caster is too neg than the usual 6.5-7.

[Roofus]

Your math is wrong. Big difference between -8, -12 and -5.5.

Good news is your strut towers aren't messed up and a typical difference of approx. .5 deg between the two.

Yeah the the top of the strut shaft will be centered and towards the rear of the car. That is your caster is too neg than the usual 6.5-7.

-12 was an inch lower with shims.

Shims out and drop raised up I got -6 one side and -4.6 on the other side.

My math wasn't wrong. I calculated -6 left, they got -5.9 actual. I calculated -4.6 right, they got -5.3 actual.

The likelihood is that the wheels were not straight when I took the measurement causing the figures to be slightly off.

Told you guys that wasn't -3.5 lolz.

[MasterKwan]

Yeah the the top of the strut shaft will be centered and towards the rear of the car. That is your caster is too neg than the usual 6.5-7.

It does sound like your top-hats are wrong on the strut. Maybe you swapped left to right and/or aren't using the correct holes (not sure that's possible). The caster suggests the center of the top of the strut is too far forward and perhaps too inward. The shaft for the strut should actually be pretty close to under the back edge of the strut tower.

[Roofus]

They aren't on the wrong strut, but they are pointed toward the engine instead of forward.

[MasterKwan]

Forward isn't what you want. At least on my 97, the strut tops are angled towards the back of the car. You're short on caster and have too much camber. That suggests more strut angle and moving the top away from the motor.

I just assumed you installed them correctly.

[m3cliff]

The top of the strut mounts specify L or R, left or right, side of the car. And the arrows should be pointed towards the front of the car.

I'm sure that the small amount of caster and high camber numbers are because you don't have them in correctly. IIRC the center of the struts should be angled towards the back of the car and slightly inwards when correctly mounted.

At least you're getting closer and it's an easy fix! Hopefully the alignment shop will realign it for free or less than the first time.

Good luck.

[bennyfizzle]

are your sway bar tabs welded to the strut or are the on a threaded collar?

they should be pointing towards the back of the car.

reason I bring this up is you might have the whole strut assemblies on the wrong sides, which is entirely possible.

you could just drop the struts and swap the hats (mounts) and see where that gets you.

[dano670]

No kidding right? It's like the guy wants me to post a certified letter from my local BMW dealership...f

I apologize for being so belligerent about accusing to you have a M3 with the non M3 brakes. Your new wheels make the once massive brakes look small. My sincerest apologies my good sir.

[SteveTVM3]

that is around -3.5. here is a pic of my car after installing the vorshlag plates @ full negative camber.

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/9548/sam0364x.jpg

[busterhax]

Bent ass car.

[Roofus]

More adventures in futility...

I was out of town for a week and got back this past weekend and swapped the plates and re-set the ride height on Monday in a total of 2 hours on jack stands without a single hiccup. I was shocked.

However, took it in to get aligned today and they aligned the rear and then came out and told me that the tie rods are frozen and they couldn't do a front alignment and that I would need new tie rods to be able to adjust toe.

Pelican lists a 5 sided hex and a 2 sided slot type. The first is from the OEM supplier Lemfoerder, the slot type is Karlyn. Are they both the same quality?

[Threedays]

I've used both, I believe I ordered Karlyn on my current car. I've had no issues with either.

[nick325xit 5spd]

Wow, talk about overcomplicating the measurement. Grab a level, stick it against the bottom of the wheel, get it vertical, measure the distance. Apply side-angle-side, or use a right triangle calculator.

[RRSperry]

It's not even close, Lemforder by a mile is better.