How do I make these fit? Kosei K1

[craiggroves91]

I'm having trouble fitting kosei k1's on the front of my car with my Ground control coilovers.

If I don't run any spacer I rub the coilovers on the inside.

These pictures are with about a 10-15 mm spacer. I am not sure I havent measured it, but they came with my car and are currently on to stop my double spoke II's from rubbing my BBK.
The rub really isnt terrible, but when taking a turn a certain way the tire will rub the bumper.
Should I just run a smaller sidewall?
Or is there a simple adjustment I can do to my coilovers?
I am a big noob to coilovers

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c149/cjdontthink/IMG_20110624_112241.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c149/cjdontthink/IMG_20110624_112223.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c149/cjdontthink/IMG_20110624_112217.jpg

thanks
I would really appreciate the help

[M Quick]

The most common way to solve these issues with coilovers (As far as I have seen) is to use a smaller size tyre/sidewall if spacers doesn't solve the problem.

So yes, a thinner sidewall would probably do it, depending on where on the tyre it is rubbing.



EDIT: Oh, i see you're running really wide tyres up front.. that's definately the problem, even stock with an offset that isn't optimal.

Your problem could easily be solved by just using a 225 with a correct size sidewall (45).. But first, try to change the ride height on the coil over to see if that solves the problem as your rubbing isn't terrible as you said, might help with just a tad more clearance.

Btw, is the wheel turned a slight bit in the picture or is the caster angle really that much up front towards the front bumper when having the wheel straight?

[craiggroves91]

The most common way to solve these issues with coilovers (As far as I have seen) is to use a smaller size tyre/sidewall if spacers doesn't solve the problem.

So yes, a thinner sidewall would probably do it, depending on where on the tyre it is rubbing.



EDIT: Oh, i see you're running really wide tyres up front.. that's definately the problem, even stock with an offset that isn't optimal.

Your problem could easily be solved by just using a 225 with a correct size sidewall (45).. But first, try to change the ride height on the coil over to see if that solves the problem as your rubbing isn't terrible as you said, might help with just a tad more clearance.

Btw, is the wheel turned a slight bit in the picture or is the caster angle really that much up front towards the front bumper when having the wheel straight?

I wouldn't want to run 225. I want the most tire I can get on the ground. It has 255/40 now which is I deal for 17x8.5 wheels.
The tires on the rims are pretty worn down too.
The previous owner ran these rims. I tried asking him what he did and he said they should just go right on.

The wheel is most likely not exactly straight. I think I tried to turn it so it would rub for the picture.

[M Quick]

255's is ideal on a 10" rim i'd say, just do the math, 10" is 254mm = 255 is the closest tyre width. Even if a 255 fits perfectly fine on a 8.5"..

Why do you want more tyre on the ground? What do you get out of it except bigger tyre expenses?

If he said that worked for him, he is either hiding the fact it rubbed or something else.


255's up front isn't ideal on an m3 e36 up front as far as i've heard, and i would also think it's because the steer-in wouldn't be as preciese or "quick" as with a 225 or 235 for example. Wider tyres isn't always beneficial, just so you know!

I had a time where i thought it was, running 255s up front and 285 up rear on my track car... the turn in response was horrible vs 235s up front 255 or 285 rears. Just sharing my experience :)

EDIT: I would do 235 up front and 265 up rear (alternative 225 front / 255 rear) R-compound (tyre compound, this is what really matters for traction) if i had an e36 m3 that i wanted to track.

[craiggroves91]

255's is ideal on a 10" rim i'd say, just do the math, 10" is 254mm = 255 is the closest tyre width. Even if a 255 fits perfectly fine on a 8.5"..

Why do you want more tyre on the ground? What do you get out of it except bigger tyre expenses?

If he said that worked for him, he is either hiding the fact it rubbed or something else.


255's up front isn't ideal on an m3 e36 up front as far as i've heard, and i would also think it's because the steer-in wouldn't be as preciese or "quick" as with a 225 or 235 for example. Wider tyres isn't always beneficial, just so you know!

I had a time where i thought it was, running 255s up front and 285 up rear on my track car... the turn in response was horrible vs 235s up front 255 or 285 rears. Just sharing my experience :)

Well on my staggered double spoke IIs I have 255 on the rear and 235 on the front. Should I try 235 on the front koseis and keep 255 on the rear?

It seems like the 255 fits perfect on the 8.5 width

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[M Quick]

Yeah, try that, 235+255 is a nice combo too (imho!). It's better if you do not rub in any situation you're in at, rubbing is never good and can sometimes shred a tyre + whatever it rubbed on when you hit a bump or anything else that makes the wheel fly onto that point.. (been there done that, hehe) not fun imho!

You can see by your last picture that the tyre bulges a little bit, but sure enough, it's perfectly safe and fine to run a 255 on a 8.5" if one really wants too!
Also take notice that some tire manufacturers have wider tyres than spec, and some has narrower than spec (in my experience michelins tend to be 10mm wider than spec and toyo is 10mm narrower than spec), this is not always true ofcourse but there is always some slight variation of the tyre width spec in some cases!

[craiggroves91]

Yeah, try that, 235+255 is a nice combo too (imho!). It's better if you do not rub in any situation you're in at, rubbing is never good and can sometimes shred a tyre + whatever it rubbed on when you hit a bump or anything else that makes the wheel fly onto that point.. (been there done that, hehe) not fun imho!

You can see by your last picture that the tyre bulges a little bit, but sure enough, it's perfectly safe and fine to run a 255 on a 8.5" if one really wants too!
Also take notice that some tire manufacturers have wider tyres than spec, and some has narrower than spec (in my experience michelins tend to be 10mm wider than spec and toyo is 10mm narrower than spec), this is not always true ofcourse but there is always some slight variation of the tyre width spec in some cases!

The tires on there now are toyo proxxes. They are extreme performance recommended for track use only so they could possibly be a little different?

Well I was thinking of taking the 235/40/17's off my front DSII's and putting them on my koseis and trying that.
I want to sell the DSII's so that would work out great!

Here is my DSIIs with 235/40
Im not sure decreasing the tire width would do it. Its more sidewall because it rubs on the inside a little with my DSII's even.

What do you think?
I guess its worth a try

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c149/cjdontthink/IMG_20110721_135618.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c149/cjdontthink/IMG_20110721_135609.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c149/cjdontthink/IMG_20110721_135603.jpg

[scooper]

check your fcab. You should be running the centered bushings not offset ones. Second thing I would check is the caster setting on your camber plates (if you have any).

[hc1001]

do u have camber plates? could you be running offset CABs?

you have too much caster, which is making the wheel closer to the front bumper.

if you have camber plates, you can adjust the caster. right now i am guessing the strut rod in the strut tower is towards the back of the strut tower. you can slide it more towards the center of the hole to decrease caster.

another mod some ppl do is use 95 offset CABs on 96+ suspension. these will move the control arms forward and give more caster. check under the car. if the front control arm is not in the center of the CABs, you have offset CABs.

[craiggroves91]

do u have camber plates? could you be running offset CABs?

you have too much caster, which is making the wheel closer to the front bumper.

if you have camber plates, you can adjust the caster. right now i am guessing the strut rod in the strut tower is towards the back of the strut tower. you can slide it more towards the center of the hole to decrease caster.

another mod some ppl do is use 95 offset CABs on 96+ suspension. these will move the control arms forward and give more caster. check under the car. if the front control arm is not in the center of the CABs, you have offset CABs.

Is this max caster?

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c149/cjdontthink/IMG_20110721_144916.jpg

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c149/cjdontthink/IMG_20110721_145351.jpg

[canisM3]

rubbing is no bueno :( It can burn the paint on and around your fender, ran a tire just a bit too big and didn't notice until I got a few blocks away and on the way home it left some nice yellow marks on my rear fender and cracked the clear in one spot :( now I have to touch that spot up, and got rid of those tires hah good thing I didn't have to pay for them though.. they came with the rims I had just bought for spares and thought if they fit why not, should have known, it was a real tight fit

[m3cliff]

OP are my arrows in the my pictures correct?

[craiggroves91]

OP are my arrows in the my pictures correct?

Yes the one labeled right side front is the drivers side and the one labeled left side front is the passenger.

[m3cliff]

I think you need to rotate your camber plates.
They are in a position to adjust caster, not camber.
I'm not that familiar with those camber plates, but they maybe on the wrong side also.
Some plates have to be on the correct side AND correctly located.
Hopefully someone else can chime in and help you with your specific plates mounting positions.

[craiggroves91]

I think you need to rotate your camber plates.
They are in a position to adjust caster, not camber.
I'm not that familiar with those camber plates, but they maybe on the wrong side also.
Some plates have to be on the correct side AND correctly located.
Hopefully someone else can chime in and help you with your specific plates mounting positions.

They were professionally installed by TCdesign so I figured they were correct.

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[m3cliff]

Do you know what brand they are? Ground control?

[craiggroves91]

Do you know what brand they are? Ground control?

Yeah ground control

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[m3cliff]

They have caster and camber adjustment and very well could be on correctly.

I'd dial out some of the caster which would move the tires away from the front of the car and help clear the fender wells. The 4 socket head cap screws look like they would allow the strut to move towards the front of the car and lessen the caster.

The camber must be adjusted by loosening the 3 nuts and sliding the whole plate inwards or out to adjust camber.

Change the caster first. It will help with the clearance issues at the front of the wheel wells.

[craiggroves91]

How do I measure caster to make sure I get it equal on both sides?

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[jakermac]

Your plates are correctly mounted. I have the same ones on my car. I have 255/40-17 Dunlop Star Specs on the front using K1s in 17x8.5 and I have no rubbing issues. It appears to me that your LCAs have the wheels too far forward in the wheelwells. I'll try and take a couple pics later this morning and post them up.

[craiggroves91]

Your plates are correctly mounted. I have the same ones on my car. I have 255/40-17 Dunlop Star Specs on the front using K1s in 17x8.5 and I have no rubbing issues. It appears to me that your LCAs have the wheels too far forward in the wheelwells. I'll try and take a couple pics later this morning and post them up.


thanks!
A lot of people are saying a 235 tire will work because somehow it has a smaller Diameter.

[M Quick]

Yes, 235 has a smaller diameter if you use the same profile size, the profile size, for example 40 is the percentage of the width in sidewall.. so 40% of 235 is less than 40% of 255..

Like i said earlier, i thought the wheels where too much up front.. hehe.. they should be much more "centered".. Fix that first before trying to go around the problem :) Maybe you don't need to change out the tyres then.

[craiggroves91]

Yes, 235 has a smaller diameter if you use the same profile size, the profile size, for example 40 is the percentage of the width in sidewall.. so 40% of 235 is less than 40% of 255..

Like i said earlier, i thought the wheels where too much up front.. hehe.. they should be much more "centered".. Fix that first before trying to go around the problem :) Maybe you don't need to change out the tyres then.


Was just told the whole 40% thing on M3forum.net I never knew that!!

As many suspected I do have offset bushings

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c149/cjdontthink/IMG_20110722_113509.jpg

[Slammed528i]

Run 235 45 tire that should do it..

[m3cliff]

You need to look at the lcab and see if the lca is centered in it or if it is offset.

If it is offset from the center of the bushing towards the outside of the car then you are running the offset bushing and probably the '96+ lca. Which has your lca's positioning the front tires more forward and thus closer to the front of the wheelwell.

Moving the caster on the camber plates will change your caster, but it will not move the lca, just the angle of the strut assembly.

I have 245/40-17 on kosei 8.5 with 40et and use 6mm spacers and the offset bushings. But my front wheels aren't as far forward as your's.

Check the fcab's.

Just saw your picture! That's why your wheels are so far forward. Change the bushings to the centered ones...245's can work and 235's will have more space.

[hellrot98m3]

get some centered bushings

[craiggroves91]

You need to look at the lcab and see if the lca is centered in it or if it is offset.

If it is offset from the center of the bushing towards the outside of the car then you are running the offset bushing and probably the '96+ lca. Which has your lca's positioning the front tires more forward and thus closer to the front of the wheelwell.

Moving the caster on the camber plates will change your caster, but it will not move the lca, just the angle of the strut assembly.

I have 245/40-17 on kosei 8.5 with 40et and use 6mm spacers and the offset bushings. But my front wheels aren't as far forward as your's.

Check the fcab's.

My picture above shows the offset bushing doesn't it?

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[jakermac]

Here's mine. As mentioned before they're 255/40-17 on 17x8.5 K1s with 40mm offset. I also have 10mm spacers.

I do not think I have offset LCA bushings, and as seen in the pic, my caster is not as positive as yours, so my wheel is nicely centered in the wheel well. The pic is with the steering straight ahead, but it does not rub at all either way. The fenders are flared/pushed out from OEM though. However the bumper is still in the OEM position.

http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp10/jakermacdorey/frontwheel1.jpg

http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp10/jakermacdorey/frontwheel2.jpg

[m3cliff]

My picture above shows the offset bushing doesn't it?

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Yes, you have the offset bushings.

[mateo m3]

you don't have to change tire sizes they are just fine, fix your caster angle and center the wheel on the wheel well and you will be ok.

[craiggroves91]

you don't have to change tire sizes they are just fine, fix your caster angle and center the wheel on the wheel well and you will be ok.

The caster angle wont actually move the wheel back. THe wheel will stay in place and the angle of the strut will just change.

[M Quick]

The caster angle wont actually move the wheel back. THe wheel will stay in place and the angle of the strut will just change.


Huh?
You know what caster is, no?

What happens if you angle something, does the end of the the angeled thing stay at the same position? How?

I'm getting 404 in my head thinking about why it wouldn't..

[canisM3]

Huh?
You know what caster is, no?

What happens if you angle something, does the end of the the angeled thing stay at the same position? How?

I'm getting 404 in my head thinking about why it wouldn't..

unless that part at the bottom was on a swivel bearing with adjustable towers it would most likely move. Unfortunately neither of these apply to the front ha What reason would you even have the urge to change the caster then if it had no effect on the placement of the wheels/ground.

[M Quick]

unless that part at the bottom was on a swivel bearing with adjustable towers it would most likely move. Unfortunately neither of these apply to the front ha What reason would you even have the urge to change the caster then if it had no effect on the placement of the wheels/ground.


Yeah, that's exactly what i'm saying! That's why i get a 404 in my head, would have no reason to be there if it didn't do anything!

[m3cliff]

The OP has an extreme caster setup/adjustment. His camber/caster plates are set at maximum caster AND he has offset lcab with 96+ lcas.

In his case he needs to move the lower spindle mounting point towards the rear of the car. Simply moving the caster adjustment of his camber/caster plates isn't going to help his situation. In fact it probably will make the tire closer to the front of the car.

Also, changing the caster angle doesn't necessarily change it's position on the ground in relationship to the car. It depends on what point in space it rotates on. On e36 strut suspensions, typically the only way to change caster is either rotating '96+ stock strut mounts, with camber/caster plates or changing the lca/lcab and or using the offset lcab. The first two options move the strut at the very top, and the last at the bottom, so you will get a different place on the ground in relationship to the car.