6-Speed automatic in an E34 ??

[Funk49]

Can anyone of the below listed 6 Speed Automatics be swapped into an E34 ?

If so, what all needs to be swapped out ?


6-speed auto



http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/images/misc/wikipedia_icon.gif ZF_6HP19_transmission
— longitudinal smaller version of 6HP26
6HP21 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=ZF_6HP21_transmission&action=edit&redlink=1) — longitudinal 2nd generation of 6HP19 2007–
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/images/misc/wikipedia_icon.gif ZF_6HP26_transmission
— longitudinal 2000–
6HP28 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=ZF_6HP28_transmission&action=edit&redlink=1) — longitudinal 2nd generation of 6HP26 2007–[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ZF_transmissions#cite_note-1)
6HP32 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=ZF_6HP32_transmission&action=edit&redlink=1) — longitudinal bigger version of 6HP26
6HP34 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=ZF_6HP34_transmission&action=edit&redlink=1) — longitudinal 2nd generation of 6HP32[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ZF_transmissions#cite_note-2)

[moroza]

You'll need a trans computer to match. These trans computers interface with the DME and body electronics, and I have a nice, hearty "good f-in luck" to say in response to the notion of getting it to work with M60 electronics. You'll also need a driveshaft and trans crossmember, which will probably have to be custom-made as I doubt these transmissions are the exact same length as ones that came in the E34.

You want 6 speeds and don't want to shift yourself? You'll spend less money hiring me to chauffeur you in my 6-speed car.

(note the absence of the first question anyone would have: "Why?")

[Funk49]

You want 6 speeds and don't want to shift yourself? You'll spend less money hiring me to chauffeur you in my 6-speed car.Might just take you up on that brother! :lol

I can do a 6 speed manual swap myself, BUT I don't have the time nor the space (right now) to do so. I'll have to farm this job out, so I figure swapping in another Auto trans should be the least expensive route.

What else besides the Trans computer would have anything else to do with the electronics ?

[BoldUlysses]

I'll have to farm this job out, so I figure swapping in another Auto trans should be the least expensive route.

Nope. The E34 540i came with a 6-speed manual from the factory in '95 (and the 530i was available with a 5-speed for several years). So all the parts exist to do the swap. Swapping in a 6-speed auto that was never designed to be there in the first place involves a whole host of "unknowns" and custom fabrication, which is always more expensive that bolting together parts than were made to be bolted together anyway.


What else besides the Trans computer would have anything else to do with the electronics ?

The DME and trans computer communicate with each other. There is no DME for the M60 that can communicate with a 6-speed auto. Just doesn't exist.

-Matt

[jfj707]

Might just take you up on that brother! :lol

I can do a 6 speed manual swap myself, BUT I don't have the time nor the space (right now) to do so. I'll have to farm this job out, so I figure swapping in another Auto trans should be the least expensive route.

What else besides the Trans computer would have anything else to do with the electronics ?

Wrong. Maybe on an American car... but not these. Can it be done? Sure it can. Is it cheaper/faster/better? No.

[moroza]

Weren't old slushboxes entirely self-contained, requiring no electronics, or interfaces with the engine and other components? If there are any 6-speed ones like that, you could try that route. Yeah, you'll need a custom bellhousing, torqueconverter, driveshaft, crossmember, shift linkage, and probably a few other bits, but hey, at least you won't need to spend even more money finding a specialist to wire up a modern BMW trans to a less-modern BMW DME and body electronics.

The amount of money you'd spend, converted to roman numerals, would spell "MONEY PIT". Just to clarify a bit, the M stands for one thousand.

[BoldUlysses]

Weren't old slushboxes entirely self-contained, requiring no electronics, or interfaces with the engine and other components?

Except for the kick-down cable running to the throttle body, yeah they were. Custom bellhousing, custom driveshaft, custom trans mounts, custom shift lever linkage and you're in business. :D

-Matt

[paulmer]

Weren't old slushboxes entirely self-contained, requiring no electronics, or interfaces with the engine and other components? If there are any 6-speed ones like that, you could try that route. Yeah, you'll need a custom bellhousing, torqueconverter, driveshaft, crossmember, shift linkage, and probably a few other bits, but hey, at least you won't need to spend even more money finding a specialist to wire up a modern BMW trans to a less-modern BMW DME and body electronics.

The amount of money you'd spend, converted to roman numerals, would spell "MONEY PIT". Just to clarify a bit, the M stands for one thousand.
What do you define as "old"? The 5HP30 (v8 e31, e32, e34) has a "Can-bus" which allows it to communicate with the DME, but if you just drop in a manual and disconnect the TCU (like I have) the DME doesn't care at all.

4HP22 doesn't have a data bus with the DME, but it isn't self contained - like the M60 cars it has a TCU which is mounted in the chassis (passenger kick panel or next to DME)

Cool idea though, hacking in a modern six speed. That would be a hell of a cool project. Someone should do it

[jfj707]

What do you define as "old"? The 5HP30 (v8 e31, e32, e34) has a "Can-bus" which allows it to communicate with the DME, but if you just drop in a manual and disconnect the TCU (like I have) the DME doesn't care at all.

4HP22 doesn't have a data bus with the DME, but it isn't self contained - like the M60 cars it has a TCU which is mounted in the chassis (passenger kick panel or next to DME)

Cool idea though, hacking in a modern six speed. That would be a hell of a cool project. Someone should do it

Hey Paulmer,

Don't you have a mint 6-speed gearbox to sell him? :stickoutt

[moroza]

What do you define as "old"? The 5HP30 (v8 e31, e32, e34) has a "Can-bus" which allows it to communicate with the DME, but if you just drop in a manual and disconnect the TCU (like I have) the DME doesn't care at all.

Well, sure, you're saying that the DME doesn't need the trans to work. The trans does need the DME to work, however.



4HP22 doesn't have a data bus with the DME, but it isn't self contained - like the M60 cars it has a TCU which is mounted in the chassis (passenger kick panel or next to DME)

I'd call it "self-contained" if it had a separate TCM whose only electric connection to other components were power and ground, and not a dozen miscellaneous wires that do who knows what and why.

[Binjammin]

What do you define as "old"? The 5HP30 (v8 e31, e32, e34) has a "Can-bus" which allows it to communicate with the DME, but if you just drop in a manual and disconnect the TCU (like I have) the DME doesn't care at all.

4HP22 doesn't have a data bus with the DME, but it isn't self contained - like the M60 cars it has a TCU which is mounted in the chassis (passenger kick panel or next to DME)

Cool idea though, hacking in a modern six speed. That would be a hell of a cool project. Someone should do it

The 4hp22H was self contained, although it's hardly something desirable to bodge in. Bellhousing fitment would be the big killer to the idea expense wise. I'm sure you could build a fairly simple pic controller to run the valve body, I think there are even projects set up to do that, I could swear I've heard of supra guys using something like that, but that's on beefy autoboxes for drag racing, why the hell would you want a 6spd auto to swap in? It would hardly be a cheap thing to buy the tranny itself, and would give you regular automatic driving around anyway, just like the 5spd auto in the v8 cars.

[HE53]

The new V8 cars probably have the same bolt pattern as the V8 in 95, so that wouldn't be the issue...


You could always put the motor and trans out of say... a new X5 in your car and wire it up and get the six speed auto. I guess you could convert a 4.0 M60 into OBDII and use that new harness, wouldn't be easy, but it could be done.

[Funk49]

Hey Paulmer,

Don't you have a mint 6-speed gearbox to sell him? :stickouttGot me starting to seriously consider this option! :confused

[jfj707]

Got me starting to seriously consider this option! :confused

Hahaha... sorry...
There are plenty of 6-speed boxes from E39's around, though.

[Boom n Zoom]

And so, as usual, the nay-sayers all come in with their that can't be done, it's impossible etc etc etc. :rolleyes

[SpeedsterBek]

It can be done but if you want 6 speed auto in a 5 series then just buy E60. Resale values are coming down pretty hard on those 5'ers.

[xatlas0]

And so, as usual, the nay-sayers all come in with their that can't be done, it's impossible etc etc etc. :rolleyes

Nobody said it was impossible, merely very difficult.

Modern 6 speed auto boxes are so linked to the sensor set via the CAN bus that I doubt the trans will function at all without the requisite sensor/DME inputs. Given how that also means the trans computer has been hard-coded to interpret those particular sensor outputs in a meaningful fashion, in order to really use the trans, you'd have to make your own trans computer from scratch, including the hardware interface and transmission logic. The only way to do that well is with a ton of HIL simulations and signal analysis.

Could you do it? Sure, if you are a reasonably competent electrical engineer or a mechatronic-minded mechanical engineer, and that is because they have some background in such matters. A complete novice would have to learn a ton of prerequisite skills to create such a device, likely over the course of several years.

I've had to help make something similar in the past (a standalone throttle-based traction control system) so I have some experience in these matters. It is possible, but far from a drop-in deal.

[attack eagle]

And so, as usual, the nay-sayers all come in with their that can't be done, it's impossible etc etc etc. :rolleyes
no one said it was impossible... jsut that it is
a: more expensive than the manual swp he dismissed as being too expensive
b: too expensive to justify doing it in a $1500 car
c: more complex than the manual swap he dismissed as being too complex
d: pointless.


Why so negative all the time man?