When is enough, enough?

[ronkeller8]

Okay, so this is really a two part question. First, there are some 'scratches' left that I cannot feel, but do not seem to be coming out despite me using a PC, Yellow Pad and various scratch removers (Swirl X 2.0 in particular). The car is red, so in the right light, they are noticeable. I understand that, as a rule of thumb, if you can't 'feel' the scratch, it is in theory at least, removable. So, when do I stop? Is it technique? Do I need more/different product? The rest of the swirls and scratches on the vehicle have been removed, and I have to say, after lots and lots of hard work....it looks rather awesome (thanks to this forum). BUT, those last few niggling details are bothering me...so, when is enough, enough?
BTW - according to my wife, enough was about two weeks ago, LOL.
For the record, I used 3M Scratch Remover, Swirl X 2.0, and Wolfgang TSR....Thanks!
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy111/ronkeller8/_DSC5554.jpg

[chet31]

I am in the same boat, with both wife and car, haha. The PC is great for medium scratches or finishing, but not the quickest w/ the bigger scratches. I am not familiar w/ all the products you are using, but the SwirlX, for example, has some cut but is by no means the most aggressive polish you could buy.

I am at the point you are, car in good shape, w/ a few deeper scratches. About once a month, just after washing, I tape off a couple of sections where I have deeper scratches and go to work on them. I find it more enjoyable to work on smaller sections for maybe 30-60 minutes versus a massive 8 hour session doing the whole car (which I have done in the past to get to the point I am now).

[jlb85]

So, where are those scratches?


If the car is driven, it will get RIDS. It will also get chips. Keeping a car scratch free is a never ending battle. Keeping it 99.5% perfect is easy in comparison.

I would much rather live with a slight scratch somewhere knowing all my 120 microns of clear are around it, than no scratch with 81 micros left over the whole area, differences in orange peel, and the lack to correct any other scratches in the future.

But your issue is likely one of choice. While you have a PC and LC pads you opt to use an over the counter polish? Doesn't make much sense, and the polish is weaker than the pad. In general, aggressive pad + aggressive polish. Keep it simple for now.

When to stop? No way of knowing without a PTG. No such thing as "feeling" how much is left. As soon as you notice the slightest change, it will be too late. Again, don't push too hard. I would prefer a small scratch rather than a repainted panel.

Now go and refine the mess the yellow pad must have left behind ;)


The PC is great for medium scratches or finishing, but not the quickest w/ the bigger scratches.

This is false.

[Jean-Claude]

This is false.

I disagree. A rotary along with good products is the fastest fix for scratches that are going to be machined out. (speaking in generalities)

[jlb85]

agreed on generalities, still false on the basis of comparison, and the definition of fast (and what else it implies). In this business of seeking perfection there is little importance in gaining a few minutes at the expense of increasing risk. In the general sense of DIY-ness of this and most forums, the PC is as big a gun as anyone should need. There are very few modern paints that warrant the use of a rotary over a PC for a faster defect removal rate.

Its like asking what is the best way to rid a house of termites. You could drop a bomb on the place, or just find an exterminator.

[Jean-Claude]

agreed on generalities, still false on the basis of comparison, and the definition of fast (and what else it implies). In this business of seeking perfection there is little importance in gaining a few minutes at the expense of increasing risk. In the general sense of DIY-ness of this and most forums, the PC is as big a gun as anyone should need. There are very few modern paints that warrant the use of a rotary over a PC for a faster defect removal rate.

Its like asking what is the best way to rid a house of termites. You could drop a bomb on the place, or just find an exterminator.

I think a more appropriate example would be what would a professional exterminator use vs what would a DIY'er use to rid his house of bugs. A bomb would be use by neither. A rotary could be used by both. ;)

In this case, if you're speaking about absolutes, a rotary will correct faster and give better results per minute.

I do agree that a rotary is out of the question for a novice. That wasn't noted tho, so I didn't take that into consideration. /shrug

[M0nK3y]

OP - The seems like the products you are using are not the correct products to use on BMWs. Meguiars Swirl Remover doesn't have the properties to remove scratches from BMW clear coat.

I'd look into Meguiars #105 and #205 Polishes, it SHOULD do the trick

[ronkeller8]

Okay, all good info. From what I had read here, the Swirl X 2.0 was alleged to be a fairly close parallel to the Megs 105....not true? It did a good job on the rest of the vehicle, but who knows if it could have done it better/faster if I used something different......
So, I should use the 105? Without any sort of a paint thickness meter, any way to t ell if I'm taking too much off?

[GothamAutoWorks]

I think a more appropriate example would be what would a professional exterminator use vs what would a DIY'er use to rid his house of bugs. A bomb would be use by neither. A rotary could be used by both. ;)


I agree with the professional vs. DIY reference here. If you use your car for ANYTHING close to a daily driver, it's going to be difficult to achieve and maintain perfection yourself. If you are looking for absolute perfection, let a professional handle it, and be ready to pay for it. You don't want to end up damaging the paint beyond the point of return just to get a few minor imperfections taken care of.

[Jean-Claude]

If you're using a dual action, you will be hard pressed to actually go through the clear coat. The only real risk is in heating it up too much. If you treat it like a piece of granite that needs to be sanded smooth you could damage it. But being extremely careless aside, as long as you keep your da moving you will be fine.


Okay, all good info. From what I had read here, the Swirl X 2.0 was alleged to be a fairly close parallel to the Megs 105....not true? It did a good job on the rest of the vehicle, but who knows if it could have done it better/faster if I used something different......
So, I should use the 105? Without any sort of a paint thickness meter, any way to t ell if I'm taking too much off?

[chet31]

agreed on generalities, still false on the basis of comparison, and the definition of fast (and what else it implies). In this business of seeking perfection there is little importance in gaining a few minutes at the expense of increasing risk. In the general sense of DIY-ness of this and most forums, the PC is as big a gun as anyone should need. There are very few modern paints that warrant the use of a rotary over a PC for a faster defect removal rate.

Its like asking what is the best way to rid a house of termites. You could drop a bomb on the place, or just find an exterminator.

In other words, my statement was not false. You simply don't believe most of us are capable of handling a Flex or rotary, which is fine, but you should state this and not simply label a statement "false."

[jlb85]

No, not at all. I believe and know the PC can be just as fast and do a better job at heavy correction than a rotary with a wool pad. Drop the wool pad and they are pretty much equal with the right selection of products.

So back to your statement. Have you used a rotary? Have you compared it directly to a PC with the same products? How many different types of paint have you corrected with both the rotary and the PC to compare to? Basically, why are you convinced the rotary is better for heavy correction?

From my experience doing all the above I believe the PC is an equal to the rotary, and offers some advantages at heavy correcting. Enough of a disclaimer?

[chet31]

I use a rotary and a PC. My experience is that the rotary w/ a wool pad is better for removing RIDS. But I prefer the PC for finishing. Your experience differs, fair enough. I agree somewhat that an absolute noob would be better off w/ a PC. However, I was an absolute noob once, and I quickly tired of how long it took to remove RIDS w/ a PC.

My main point to the OP was not that he should throw out his PC, it was to simply inform him that he was not doing anything horrendously wrong when he did not get quick results on his RIDS using a PC.

[ronkeller8]

Thanks to all for the info, but I guess what I should have been more concise with my original question. Allow me to rephrase: On a car (not a daily driver), should I be able to remove a scratch I can't feel with a PC, using something along the lines of Megs 105 and a Yellow or Orange pad, and not be too worried about removing the clear??
Of course, I understand that if I stand over the same spot too long, even with a PC, I run the risk of damaging the surface, but if one is prudent, am I otherwise 'safe'?
I don't want to end up with a great looking car TODAY and a repaint in three years....
Hope that's a little better phrased.....thanks!

[TOGWT]

OP - The seems like the products you are using are not the correct products to use on BMWs. Meguiars Swirl Remover doesn't have the properties to remove scratches from BMW clear coat.

I agree; try another polish, but start with the least abrasive first



I'd look into Meguiars #105 and #205 Polishes, it SHOULD do the trick

I’m not trying to detract from the KBM method, in the right circumstances it is an extremely efficient system. My reservations are that using a polish with an abrasive rating of 12/10 is not a panacea for paint correction. I was taught to select a test area and use a pad / polish combination that would remove the scratches using the least abrasive polish / pad combination and apply it to the rest of the vehicle.Relying on a ‘one size fits all’ approach to paint correction is just not something I’m comfortable with.

[ronkeller8]

My reservations are that using a polish with an abrasive rating of 12/10 is not a panacea for paint correction.

Update: I tried the Meg's 105 and it worked perfectly after only two passes. Really made a difference compared with the Meg's Swirl X 2.0 and all of the other products that I tried. Kinda scary, actually how well it works....I'm going to use it on a few other spots that resisted removal, and hopefully that should resolve the issue.
Question - what does 'rating of 12/10' mean??

[chet31]

He might be referring to this chart:

http://craigdt.web.officelive.com/abrasives.aspx